Quid pro bros

Summary

Today, Explained: "Quid pro Bros" Episode Summary

Released on February 25, 2025 | Hosted by Sean Rameswaram and Noelle King | Part of the Vox Media Podcast Network

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Introduction: Mayor Eric Adams Under Scrutiny

The episode "Quid pro Bros" delves into the tumultuous tenure of New York City Mayor Eric Adams, exploring the series of legal challenges and political maneuvers that have defined his administration. Hosts Sean Rameswaram and Noelle King, alongside reporter Katie Honan and legal expert Barbara McQuaid, unpack the complexities surrounding Adams' alleged corruption, the Department of Justice (DOJ) intervention, and the broader implications for New York City politics.

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Background: From NYPD to Mayor

Noelle King provides a comprehensive overview of Eric Adams' journey from a police officer to the 110th Mayor of New York City. Adams, a former state senator and Brooklyn borough president, ran for mayor in 2021 on a platform centered around public safety, addressing the city's economic struggles post-pandemic and escalating gun violence.

Noelle King [03:28]: "A lot of people were worried that surging gun violence could make reopening more difficult and deter visitors."

Adams' promise to tackle crime resonated with voters, positioning him as a reform-minded leader committed to restoring New York's safety and vibrancy.

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Controversies Arise: The Investigation Begins

The episode details the onset of legal troubles for Mayor Adams, tracing the investigation back to 2021 when he was still the borough president. However, public attention surged in the fall of 2023 following the raid of his top fundraiser's home by federal agents.

Katie Honan [06:24]: "This issue will destroy New York City. We're getting 10,000 migrants a month."

The investigation intensified in September 2024, culminating in FBI raids targeting not only Adams but also key members of his administration, including deputy mayors and the NYPD commissioner. These actions raised significant concerns about the intertwining of political power and legal accountability.

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Allegations and Indictment: Breaking Down the Charges

Mayor Adams was indicted on five counts, including bribery and wire fraud, amid allegations of facilitating expedited permits for the Turkish government in exchange for personal luxury benefits. The indictment also accused Adams of accepting over $100,000 in luxury travel perks.

Noelle King [07:05]: "We have just learned that FBI agents seized New York City Mayor Eric Adams' phones and an iPad earlier this week."

In response to the charges, Adams vehemently denied any wrongdoing, framing the investigation as a politically motivated attack orchestrated by the Biden administration.

Eric Adams [08:14]: "I have done nothing wrong. This is a political attack. I'm being targeted."

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DOJ Intervention: A Political Quagmire

The episode uncovers a pivotal DOJ memo from Emile Beauvais, requesting the dismissal of charges against Adams without prejudice. This move was perceived as an attempt to protect Adams from pursuing certain policy agendas, particularly those aligned with former President Donald Trump.

Sean Rameswaram [17:36]: "What they did here was to say that we think that defending himself in this case will make it more difficult for Mayor Adams to advance the president's policy priorities of violent crime and immigration."

Danielle Sassoon, the interim U.S. Attorney, resisted the DOJ's directive, citing concerns over the legality and motivations behind the request. Her refusal led to her resignation, highlighting the internal conflicts within the DOJ.

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Resignations and Fallout: The Domino Effect

Adams' indictment triggered a cascade of resignations within his administration. Four top deputy mayors stepped down, citing disagreements over collaboration with the Trump administration and ethical concerns.

Sean Rameswaram [11:41]: "I expect you will eventually find someone who is enough of a coward to file your motion, but it was never going to be me."

These departures underscored the growing instability within Adams' leadership and the challenges he faced in maintaining a cohesive administration amid legal and political pressures.

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Expert Analysis: Barbara McQuaid on DOJ's Integrity

Legal expert Barbara McQuaid provides deep insights into the DOJ's actions, emphasizing the alarming shift from law-based prosecutions to politically driven dismissals.

Barbara McQuaid [18:32]: "Prosecutors follow what are known as the principles of federal prosecution, and they are supposed to follow cases based on the facts and the law and not the policy priorities of any president."

McQuaid critiques the DOJ's interference as a breach of the rule of law, suggesting that such politicization undermines public trust and erodes institutional integrity.

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Implications for the Future: A Precedent Set?

The episode raises pressing questions about the precedent set by Adams' case. Sean Rameswaram speculates on the potential for future political reprisals under the current DOJ leadership, warning of a dangerous trend where legal actions may be weaponized against political adversaries.

Sean Rameswaram [25:49]: "If he's willing to dismiss a case in exchange for cooperation, might he also be willing to bring a case against someone who is not?"

This concern points to a broader threat to democratic principles, where the DOJ's independence is compromised by political affiliations and directives from the executive branch.

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Conclusion: Navigating a Complex Political Landscape

"Quid pro Bros" paints a vivid picture of the intricate and often perilous intersection between politics and law enforcement in New York City. Mayor Eric Adams' saga serves as a microcosm of larger national debates about executive power, judicial independence, and the integrity of public institutions.

The episode underscores the necessity for vigilance and accountability to ensure that legal processes remain impartial and free from political manipulation. As the situation unfolds, the repercussions for Adams and the broader political environment remain to be seen, highlighting the ongoing struggle to balance governance with the rule of law.

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Notable Quotes:

• Eric Adams [00:17]: "You should always, when your child bring in his popular knapsack with many different locations, look through it to see what exactly is your child carrying in addition to a book, something simple as a crack pipe."

• Katie Honan [03:28]: "A lot of people are worried that surging gun violence could make reopening more difficult and deter visitors."

• Eric Adams [04:34]: "When you're eating the soul of a living being, you are also internalizing all the trauma. When that animal is killed."

• Sean Rameswaram [22:30]: "President Trump's executive orders... trying to change the mission of the Department from the rule of law to the rule of Trump."

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This summary encapsulates the critical discussions and insights from the "Quid pro Bros" episode, providing a comprehensive overview for listeners and newcomers alike.

Transcript

[Noelle King]

New York City Mayor Eric Adams has always been an odd guy. As a state senator, he made a video explaining how to search your kid's room for contraband.

[Eric Adams]

You can look in a jewelry box, a jewelry box of this nature, maybe a simple jewelry box, but if you look through it closely, you don't know what your child may be hiding.

[Noelle King]

Fair.

[Eric Adams]

You should always, when your child bring in his popular knapsack with many different locations, look through it to see what exactly is your child carrying in addition to a book, something simple as a crack pipe. A used crack pip. Could he have found it on the street? That's quite possible.

[Noelle King]

Wait, what? Swagger as mayor? There was the Urban Rat Summit, there was the baptism his at Rikers island. And then there was the alleged corruption, the wire fraud, bribery, the indictment. And then came the order from the Department of Justice that all those charges had to be dropped. Ahead on Today Explained.

[Eric Adams]

Where there's smoke, there's possible fire.

[Katie Honan]

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[Sean Ramstorm]

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[Katie Honan]

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[Barbara McQuaid]

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[Katie Honan]

Not available in all states or situations. Foreign doors please. The next stop will be Today Explained.

[Sean Ramstorm]

Today Explained will be next.

[Noelle King]

Stand clear. Katie Honan is a senior reporter at the nonprofit news site the City. Katie also hosts the FAQ NYC podcast. Yesterday, minutes before Katie dashed into a press conference with Eric Adams, we reached her in the rotunda of City hall to ask her about the life and times of of New York's mayor.

[Katie Honan]

Eric Adams is like a real New York story. He's a former police officer. He often talks about his path to the NYPD.

[Eric Adams]

As a 15 year old, I was arrested and beat by police officers, but also learned how to turn my pain into purpose. I became a police officer, NYPD reformer.

[Katie Honan]

And he was a very activist police officer challenging a lot of the Racism within the department for members like himself as a black police officer. And then he became a state senator representing neighborhoods in central Brooklyn and then the borough president of Brooklyn. So when he ran For Mayor in 2021, it was on a public safety message that really, especially towards the later months of the election season, really resonated.

[Sean Ramstorm]

The next mayor of New York will confront an economy battered by the pandemic, as well as rising rates of gun violence and homicide that have made public safety the top issue for many voters. And as the city nears a full.

[Katie Honan]

Reopening, a lot of people are worri that surging gun violence could make it.

[Noelle King]

More difficult to attract visitors.

[Eric Adams]

This is a critical time for New York. We're facing a pandemic of crime, inequality and injustice.

[Katie Honan]

And that is how he became the city's 110th mayor of New York City.

[Noelle King]

Before we get to the events of the past couple of weeks, what's his reputation as mayor been? What do New Yorkers think of him?

[Katie Honan]

It's funny when I speak to the friends of mine who don't pay attention to politics, I think because the mayor himself talks about his personality and his. His own word, which is swagger.

[Eric Adams]

When a mayor has swagger, the city has swagger.

[Katie Honan]

He has his own message about who he is. You know, we all have stories about ourselves that we share. His, however, was very easily debunked. You know his big thing, a vegan mayor.

[Eric Adams]

When you're eating the soul of a living being, you are also internalizing all the trauma. When that animal is killed.

[Katie Honan]

A few months into his tenure in 2022, he's going out to dinner and the waiter is saying, yo, he ordered the fish, you know, which is not vegan. So there was that.

[Barbara McQuaid]

I just want to clarify something.

[Sean Ramstorm]

How often do you eat fish and.

[Katie Honan]

Do you eat any other animal proteins?

[Eric Adams]

I eat a plant based centered life. Some people to call me vegan. Vegans eat Oreos and they drink Coca Cola. I don't.

[Katie Honan]

And I think even his partying, it became a negative because people are like, why are you not, like, out doing your job? Why are you out at clubs with French Montana, a rapper? Why are you out at these private clubs? French Montana in your friend group is.

[Eric Adams]

Not a good sign.

[Katie Honan]

Monsieur Montana, he is such a large personality. His clothing, everything's embroidered. It says Mayor Adams, in case you didn't know who he was. On his hat, on his jacket, his phrase is get stuff done. There's GSD everywhere. So that's what we see of the colorful character of Mayor Adams, this is New York.

[Eric Adams]

It's a privilege to live in New York. And the leadership should have that swagger. That's what has been missing in this city.

[Noelle King]

When do things start to go south for him legally?

[Katie Honan]

Well, we found out that the investigation into him started in 2021 when he was still a borough president. But we saw it publicly. I would say it was the fall of 2023, when his top fundraiser's home was raided by the feds. That morning, the mayor was on his way to Washington, D.C. to meet with the Biden administration to talk about the asylum seeker crisis, which is. It continues to be. It's sort of winding down now. But it was for years a large issue in the city financially and just in terms of organizing, in terms of what the mayor had to focus on. A lot of it was taken up by the asylum seeker crisis.

[Eric Adams]

This issue will destroy New York City. Destroy New York city. We're getting 10,000 migrants a month.

[Katie Honan]

So the mayor flies to D.C. and then immediately returns. And all we knew initially was that he had to return for, quote, a matter. So that was when we realized there might be an investigation into the mayor. And then we saw trickles of this until September 2024. A Bronx neighborhood swarming with FBI agents earlier today.

[Noelle King]

Records show the address involved is owned.

[Katie Honan]

By a top aide to Mayor Adams.

[Eric Adams]

We have just learned that FBI agents seized New York City Mayor Eric Adams.

[Katie Honan]

Phones and an iPad earlier this week.

[Noelle King]

The FBI raiding the homes of at.

[Sean Ramstorm]

Least five people in Mayor Eric Adams administration, including two of his deputy mayors.

[Katie Honan]

The school's chancellor, and even reportedly the NYPD commissioner. And then in late September, the mayor himself was indicted on five counts, including bribery and wire fraud.

[Noelle King]

What are the details there? Bribery and wire fraud. What was going on?

[Katie Honan]

Allegedly the mayor, allegedly, in short, was helping out the Turkish government.

[Noelle King]

The Turkish government?

[Katie Honan]

The Turkish government expediting a building that they have in Midtown, getting the fire permit expedited. You know, these things. It's New York City, it's a big city, and things take a lot of time.

[Barbara McQuaid]

We also allege that the mayor sought and accepted well over $100,000 in luxury travel benefits. These benefits included free international business class.

[Sean Ramstorm]

Flights and opulent hotel rooms in foreign cities.

[Katie Honan]

In addition to that, there was supposed to be a superseding indictment, so additional charges filed, but we don't know if we're ever going to see those.

[Noelle King]

Okay, and once he's charged, what does he say?

[Eric Adams]

My fellow New Yorkers, it is now.

[Katie Honan]

The mayor immediately recorded a video and he said, I have Done nothing wrong. This is a political attack. I'm being targeted.

[Eric Adams]

His phrase was, I always knew that if I stood my ground for all of you, that I would be a target and a target I became.

[Katie Honan]

Because he says that he was targeted by the Biden administration because he was critical of their lack of help financially in New York City for the asylum seeker crisis. I'll point out that the investigation predates the asylum seeker crisis, and you can repeat that to the mayor as much as you want, but he's never going to listen to it. He insists that he is a pure victim of a political persecution, and he's continued to say it. And this is a kind of a note that's been picked up by a lot of particularly right wing outlets across the country.

[Barbara McQuaid]

He was one of the ones that.

[Katie Honan]

Spoke out against Biden. And if you speak out against Biden, you get punished. Menendez spoke out, got punished. Adams spoke out, got punished. Trump got more than punished.

[Noelle King]

Mayor Adams is a Democrat.

[Katie Honan]

Yes.

[Noelle King]

Okay. But he claims he was targeted by the Biden administration. And then President Trump is elected. And that leads us to where we are today. What happened?

[Katie Honan]

I'll point out Eric Adams was, at least up until the early 90s, registered as a Republican. And he's always been a more moderate Democrat. Here in New York City, there's lots of different shades of Democrats. Right. And he's been more towards the right. I think when. When it really solidified was before the election. There is something known as the Al Smith Dinner. It's a fundraiser for Catholic charities. Candidates always go. This was the first year that Vice President Harris did not go, or last year was. So now President Trump, then candidate and former President Trump spoke. We were persecuted, Eric. I was persecuted. And so are you, Eric. The mayor's dietary restrictions are well known.

[Sean Ramstorm]

But I've got to say I've never met a person who's a vegan who.

[Katie Honan]

Liked turkey so much. He sympathized. He showed empathy for what Eric Adams was going through, which was sort of the first signal of, huh? If this guy wins, what can he do to help Eric Adams? We actually would pressure the mayor. Are you gonna vote? Who are you gonna vote for? He wouldn't say by President Harris name. We did go to him when he voted at his home voting site in Brooklyn. He finally said Kamala Harris. But there was a lot of speculation that if President Trump became the president again, he would help Eric Adams out, which is what we saw with the Justice Department memo.

[Noelle King]

Yeah. What is the Justice Department memo? Explain what happened there So a few.

[Katie Honan]

Weeks ago, this memo drops from Emile Beauvais and the Justice Department to the federal prosecutors here in Manhattan requesting that they drop the charges against the mayor. Never saying it's because the charges are without merit or there's no evidence behind it. But they said the charges restrict Eric Adams from assisting President Trump in carrying out his plans for undocumented immigrants here in the city. We saw immediately this sort of plainly political reasoning for wanting to drop the charges, and we saw the fallout of that.

[Sean Ramstorm]

One after another. Those prosecutors have quit in protest, including an assistant U.S. attorney in New York who not only refused to drop the charges against Adams, but in a letter announcing his resignation said, I expect you.

[Katie Honan]

Will eventually find someone who is enough.

[Sean Ramstorm]

Of a fool or enough of a.

[Katie Honan]

Coward to file your motion, but it.

[Sean Ramstorm]

Was never going to be me.

[Katie Honan]

And then you even see a further domino effect of the mayor's four top deputy mayors stepping down or announcing they will resign in mid March because of what the mayor is doing. And it's, you know, working with the Trump administration on things they don't believe in.

[Noelle King]

So is the case, are the charges against Adams really going to get dropped?

[Katie Honan]

We don't know yet. Judge Dale Ho last week decided on Friday to basically bring in a third party legal expert because his argument was, look, we've only heard from one side arguing, yes, we need to drop the charges. We need to have perhaps someone else to argue and to review the facts of the case and the circumstances and maybe make the argument that it should be kept and they should continue to pursue these charges. And here's why, in appointing this person, he's delaying the process. But this does not get the mayor off the hook as easily or as quickly as I think he, his lawyers and the Justice Department had hoped.

[Noelle King]

So you're a native New Yorker, and politics in New York, it can get weird. In your time covering politics in New York, where does this kind of stand on the scale of 1 to 10?

[Katie Honan]

Oh, I would say this is probably an 8. I'm going to leave open the possibility of things getting weirder.

[Noelle King]

The city's Katie Honan getting ready to go into a Mayor Adams press conference. Good luck in there.

[Sean Ramstorm]

Enjoy.

[Katie Honan]

I'll need it. Thank you so much.

[Barbara McQuaid]

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[Noelle King]

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[Katie Honan]

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[Noelle King]

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[Katie Honan]

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[Noelle King]

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[Barbara McQuaid]

Hello podcast listeners. I'm Sean Ramstorm here from the Today Explained show and I've got some news you can use. We're taking Vox Media podcasts on the road and heading Back to Austin, Texas for the south by Southwest Festival, March 8th through 10th. We'll be doing special live episodes of hit shows, including our show Today Explained. Where should we Begin With Esther Perel, Pivot, A Touch More with Sue Bird and Megan Rapinoe, Not Just Football with Cam Hayward and more presented by Smartsheet. The Vox Media Podcast stage at SXSW is open to all south by Southwest badge holders. I'll be the guy. A Mr. T costume. We hope to see you at the Austin Convention center soon. You can visit voxmedia.com SXSW to learn more. That's voxmedia.com SXSW.

[Noelle King]

Barbara McQuaid teaches at the University of Michigan's law school. She served as the US Attorney for the Eastern District of Michigan. There are 93 US Attorneys in these United States, and it is their job to enforce federal law, as all U.S. attorneys are. Barb was a presidential appointee. She was appointed by Obama in 2010, and she served until 2017.

[Sean Ramstorm]

I think the expectation at that time was what President Obama had done, which was to allow US Attorneys to stay until their successors were identified. And that was sort of what the expectation would be with President Trump. But one day, quite abruptly, he told all of us to go.

[Noelle King]

We called Barb because a relatively tiny number of people have held these jobs, and we wanted to know what she makes of the DOJ pressuring New York prosecutors to drop their case against Eric Adams.

[Sean Ramstorm]

I think if they had focused on the case itself, perhaps the merits of the case, that would be appropriate, but that's not what they did. What they did here was to say that we think that defending himself in this case will make it more difficult for Mayor Adams to advance the president's policy priorities of violent crime and immigration. And for that reason, we want to dismiss this case. That, to me, is highly inappropriate because that is allowing partisan politics to intrude upon the rule of law. Prosecutors follow what are known as the principles of federal prosecution, and they are supposed to follow cases based on the facts and the law and not the policy priorities of any president.

[Noelle King]

Walk us through. Who gave the prosecutors in New York their marching orders and what exactly those orders said?

[Sean Ramstorm]

Well, Emil Beauvais, who is the acting deputy Attorney general, that is the second in command at the Department of Justice, sent a letter to the U.S. attorney there. She was the interim U.S. attorney placed by the Trump administration, named Danielle Sassoon. And in that letter, he directed her to dismiss the indictment against Eric Adams, although to do so without prejudice. And the reasons he stated were, number one, that it appeared that the case was brought for political reasons. And number two, he thought that the case would interfere with Mayor Adams ability to enforce the law against violent crime and immigration. And it was the response from Danielle Sassou publicly, I think, that put this issue on everyone's radar screen. She said, I'm not going to do it. I'll resign before I do it. But she was appealing to his boss, the Attorney General, Pam Bondi, to say, I hope you'll reconsider because this appears to me to be an illegal quid pro quo a this for that that is prohibited under federal bribery statutes. That says, if you give me something, I will use my office to give you something. And so she said, based on the meeting she had had with email Bove and the lawyers for Eric Adams, that it appeared to be that they were agreeing to dismiss this case so that he would be a cooperative partner in exercising his role as mayor of New York. And it was that to which Danielle Sassoon objected. And then I also want to mention the significance of the without prejudice. So cases can be dismissed with or without prejudice. That means with prejudice, the case may not be brought again. Without prejudice means it can be resuscitated at any time and brought again. And so one of the things she noted was that the without prejudice nature of this case is what really raised suspicions, because if you think this case shouldn't be brought, then dismiss it altogether. It appeared that this without prejudice was there to keep leverage over Eric Adams so that they could maintain control over him. And in fact, if you saw the interview he did, Eric Adams with Tom Homan, President Trump's border czar, on Fox and Friends, it was pretty clear that's exactly what it was.

[Noelle King]

If he doesn't come through, I'll be back in New York City, and we.

[Katie Honan]

Won'T be sitting on the couch. I'll be in his office, up, up his butt, saying, where the hell is.

[Noelle King]

The agreement we came to?

[Katie Honan]

So.

[Noelle King]

After the resignations, I heard people ask whether resigning is the best move, because if everybody resigns, then eventually somebody does give in and do it. And the people who are, who are ethical, who have, you know, backbones, they're not there anymore. What do you think about that tension?

[Sean Ramstorm]

Yeah, it's a really difficult dilemma. It's certainly a tradition, I suppose, in public service, in the military and in the government. And I suppose it's an effort to respect the chain of command. If your supervisor gives you an order that you find illegal, unethical, or immoral, that your obligation is to resign rather than to implement it. But I hear you, because if all the good people resign, that means the people who will replace them are likely people who are willing to go to bat for Donald Trump and carry out his orders regardless of whether they satisfy the rule of law. And I think that puts us in a worse place.

[Noelle King]

What do you think this scandal tells us about the Justice Department in the Second Trump administration, I think it tells.

[Sean Ramstorm]

Us that we're in a very different place than we were in the first administration when we had, you know, Jeff Sessions, very aggressive on immigration enforcement, but certainly not lawless, recused himself because of his involvement in his public statements about Russia.

[Katie Honan]

I said this, quote, I have now decided to accuse myself from any existing or future investigations of any matter relating.

[Sean Ramstorm]

In any way to the campaigns for.

[Noelle King]

President of the United States.

[Sean Ramstorm]

William Barr, a little, maybe an intermediate step when he stood up and asserted his authority to dismiss the case against Michael Flynn.

[Katie Honan]

The Department of Justice is not persuaded that this was material to any legitimate.

[Noelle King]

Counterintelligence investigation, so it was not a crime.

[Sean Ramstorm]

And directed the filing of a new sentencing memo seeking a lower sentence for Roger Stone. Those struck me as inappropriate, but not unlawful. And now we've got a completely different tenor at the Department of Justice with what we are seeing. You know, the through line in Pam Bondi's memos to the lawyers in the Department of Justice and Donald Trump's executive orders all have this line about implementing the president's agenda faithfully. And it's an interesting choice of words, because, of course, what the president's duty is under the Constitution is to take care that the laws be faithfully executed. And so that's a little different, that he is trying to change the mission of the Department from the rule of law to the rule of Trump.

[Noelle King]

How do we get out of this? Do you think that Congress is gonna do anything here?

[Sean Ramstorm]

I don't know. Certainly many presidents enjoy sort of a honeymoon period where members of Congress allow him to begin his term with the ability to bring his own people on board. But I am hopeful that at some point, constituents are going to let their members of Congress know that this is not acceptable. We're already starting to see, you know, town halls across the country where citizens are telling their members of Congress they're not satisfied with what's happening and wanting them to stand up.

[Katie Honan]

Why are you now, why is a supposedly conservative party taking such a radical and extremist and sloppy approach to this?

[Sean Ramstorm]

When will you stand up to them and. And say, that is enough?

[Katie Honan]

And I think across the board, he's done some very good things. I think he's gotten rid of birthright citizenship.

[Sean Ramstorm]

So I think ultimately, members of Congress care most about maintaining their seats in Congress. And, you know, shamefully, I think they're afraid of a primary contender. Elon Musk has threatened to support primary challengers to people who don't go along with Donald Trump's agenda. And I think that concerns them. But if their voters indicate that they are unhappy with what they are seeing, I think that members of Congress have a duty to listen to them. And I think some, maybe many of them will.

[Noelle King]

The issue, of course, in New York is the quid pro quo. Donald Trump wants something from Eric Adams, and Eric Adams wanted something from Donald Trump. But the vast majority of mayors in the United States and governors in the United States and other people in the United States who Donald Trump might want something from are not under indictment. Right. So is this situation in New York City just a one off, or do you think it's part of a playbook?

[Sean Ramstorm]

Well, I don't know. But recall that Donald Trump has famously said, he said it in his book the Art of the Deal, that when people cross me, I hit them back. I counterpunch times 10 because it's important to send a message to everybody else that you don't mess with me. And so I imagine that when we see people who are refusing to cooperate with President Trump's immigration agenda or other policy agendas, we could see other directives. If he's willing to dismiss a case in exchange for cooperation, might he also be willing to bring a case against someone who is not? Now, we haven't crossed that road yet. But if you look at what's happening out of the District of Columbia with the U.S. attorney there sending messages, sending out letters to Chuck Schumer and Congressman Robert Garcia in New York, who have said things in opposition to President Trump and conservative justices on the Supreme Court, that seems to be an effort to perhaps chill free speech or intimidate them by introducing the concept of criminal charges against people who speak out politically. That's a really dangerous place to be in.

[Noelle King]

Barbara McQuaid, UMich Law School former U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Michigan. Amanda Llewellyn and Devin Schwartz produced today's show. Jolie Myers edited, Laura Bullard checked the facts, and Patrick Boyd is our engineer. I'm Noelle King. This has been today explained.