Raw milk is having a mooment

Summary

Today, Explained – “Raw milk is having a mooment”

Date: May 27, 2026
Host: Sean Rameswaram (Vox)
Guests: Anna Merlan (Mother Jones), Matt and Bobby Priggle (Priggle Creamery, Maryland)

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the recent surge of interest in raw milk in the United States—milk that has not gone through pasteurization. Host Sean Rameswaram embarks on a personal and investigative journey, visiting local markets and a historic family dairy to unpack why so many Americans—across political lines—are seeking out a product long associated with health risks. The episode considers regulatory battles, health claims, political ties, and the realities on the ground for farmers and consumers, culminating in a discussion with a raw milk expert and skeptic.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Raw Milk in the Wild: Searching Local Markets

• [00:01–02:00]
  Sean begins the episode at the Old Town Farmers Market in Alexandria, Virginia, with his (unimpressed) mom, highlighting the legal difficulties of finding raw milk in many U.S. states.
  • Raw milk is straightforward to find and drink in places like Sri Lanka and California, but not in Virginia.
  • 18 states are currently trying to make it easier to access.

2. On the Farm: The Priggle Creamery Experience

• [02:05–12:06]
  Sean travels to Glenarm, Maryland, and interviews Matt and Bobby Priggle, whose family dairy dates to 1895.
  • Regulation Loopholes:
    • In Maryland, it is illegal to sell raw milk for human consumption, but it can be legally sold as “pet food.”
    • Sales for pet milk match or exceed those for pasteurized milk:

      “The milk for cats and dogs, week to week, is roughly the same or more in sales ... than the pasteurized milk.” – Matt Priggle [03:33]

  • Are people buying for pets, or themselves?
    • The Priggles emphasize they sell pet food, and what buyers do “is up to them.”

      “What they do with it when they leave the store, you know, I can’t control that. It’s up to them.” – Matt Priggle [03:57]

  • Changing Landscape:
    • Father and son disagree slightly on demand; son cites a steady interest while father describes exponential growth, possibly driven by social media and political “health freedom” trends.
  • On Drinking Raw Milk:

    “If I have an option of drinking raw milk or pasteurized milk in the same refrigerator, I pull raw milk every day.” – Bobby Priggle [05:45]
    “I had a glass of milk with my steak last night ... I had it in my coffee.” – Bobby Priggle [05:54–05:58]

  • Raw vs. Plant-based Milks:
    • Matt and Bobby rib Sean for drinking oat milk, informally rechristening it “oat oil” or “oat juice.”

      “Oat milk. Which isn’t milk, by the way... milk by definition has to come from a mammal’s mammary glands ... It’s pressed and secreted oils and water.” – Matt Priggle [06:05–06:18]

    • Sean explains it’s a necessity due to lactose intolerance.

3. The Safety & History of Pasteurization

• [06:35–09:59]
  Sean offers context: Pasteurization became widespread to prevent diseases like salmonella, listeria, tuberculosis, and E. coli. Matt explains the history of urban dairies, distillery byproducts, and unsanitary conditions in early 20th-century cities, validating why pasteurization was crucial.
  • Modern small farms pride themselves on strict controls, closed milking systems, and testing, but Matt is clear:

    “If they’re worried or concerned, I would tell them not to drink it.” – Matt Priggle [09:26]
    “If you can’t visit the farm, I wouldn’t drink their milk.” [09:36]
    “It needs to be a hyper-local product.” [10:00]

4. Tasting the Milk

• [11:20–12:08]
  Sean samples “pet food” raw milk:
  • “Tastes like milk.” – Sean [11:46]
  • His mom tries and adds, “If nobody told you, you wouldn’t know.” – Sean’s mom [11:57]
  • Sean reports only minor stomach discomfort later, possibly due to lactose intolerance.

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5. The Broader Movement: Law, Politics & Social Media

• [15:08–26:35]
  Interview with Anna Merlan (Mother Jones):

  • Legislation & Legal Patchwork:

    • 18 states have 40+ bills under consideration to loosen raw dairy regulations. Oklahoma recently legalized some raw milk sales.
    • “Raw milk is legal to some degree in 43 states, but it varies really widely.” – Anna Merlan [16:26]
    • In some states, buyers use herd share agreements for access; others (like Maryland) label raw milk as pet food.

  • Why Pasteurization?

    • The 1930s push stemmed from evidence that raw milk transmitted tuberculosis and other deadly diseases to infants.

      “There was a pretty direct relationship between more and more places requiring pasteurization and infant mortality rates going down.” – Anna Merlan [18:18]

  • Persistent Myths vs. Public Health:

    • Raw milk advocates argue it's healthier (“healing,” “beneficial enzymes/bacteria”), but public health bodies consistently debunk these claims.

      “Raw milk makes asthma go away, which is not true. ... These arguments have pretty much been around since the raw milk movement organized.” – Anna Merlan [19:18]

  • Political Crosscurrents:

    • Interest in raw milk crosses party lines; “health freedom” and distrust of government resonate in both “crunchy left” and libertarian circles.

      “Historically, raw milk, like anti-vaccine ideas, cut equally across the right and the left.” – Anna Merlan [20:04]

    • Recent, highly publicized political moments: HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. toasted with raw milk, but has not moved federal policy; the Trump administration has focused on “whole milk” advocacy instead.

      “The fact that the Trump administration has not been on their side is clearly a big disappointment [to raw milk advocates].” – Anna Merlan [23:17]

  • Actual Risks & Outbreaks:

    • Raw milk is still associated with foodborne illnesses and deaths (e.g., New Mexico infant, listeria outbreak).

      “Raw milk can carry E. coli, salmonella, campylobacter, things that can make you really, really sick.” – Anna Merlan [23:42]
      “For children ... E. coli ... can lead to hemolytic uremic syndrome, which has sickened and killed children.” [24:52]

    • Merlan stresses that no matter how much you trust your farmer or their practices, the risks remain.

      “If you’re not pasteurizing your milk, you’re going to be at more risk of common foodborne pathogens.” [25:26] “Ideally we would not be continuing to litigate well-established science, but instead we are, you know, talking about raw milk again.” [25:38]

  • Would Merlan Drink Raw Milk?

    “I have actually seen cows before and I know where the udder is compared to, for instance, the cow’s asshole. So, no, I am personally not going to drink raw milk.” – Anna Merlan [25:47]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Legal Loophole:

  “We are registered to sell raw milk in the state of Maryland as a pet food. So we do offer raw milk for cats and dogs.” – Matt Priggle [03:08]

• On Raw Milk’s Appeal:

  “People should just get to choose, right? ... If you want to have raw milk, you should be able to go get that.” – Matt Priggle [05:27]

• On Safety:

  “There’s always a chance. I wouldn’t buy raw milk for me to consume or my family if I wasn’t able to visit the farm and see how the practices are.” – Matt Priggle [09:36]

• Political Theater:

  “He did a little shooter of raw milk to celebrate the publication of the Maha report, which was meant to be his big kind of capstone piece ... full of AI slop and fake citations.” – Anna Merlan [21:00]

• The Gross-Out Factor:

  “I have actually seen cows before and I know where the udder is compared to ... the cow’s asshole. So, no, I am personally not going to drink raw milk.” – Anna Merlan [25:47]

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |------------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:01 | Sean’s search for raw milk at Alexandria Farmers Market, with his unimpressed mom | | 02:05 | Visit to Priggle Creamery in Maryland, legal workarounds, and farmer interviews | | 03:33 | Raw milk as pet food outsells or matches pasteurized milk at the Creamery | | 06:35 | Why pasteurization became standard (disease prevention) | | 09:26 | Matt: “If they’re worried or concerned, I would tell them not to drink it” | | 11:20 | Sean and his mom taste raw milk (“Tastes like milk”) | | 15:08 | Anna Merlan explains the national raw milk movement and current legal landscape | | 16:26 | “Raw milk is legal to some degree in 43 states, but it varies really widely” | | 18:18 | How pasteurization reduced infant mortality | | 19:18 | Raw milk movement’s “healing” claims and their debunking | | 20:04 | Political alignment: raw milk advocacy is bipartisan | | 21:00 | RFK Jr.’s “raw milk shooter” and federal inaction | | 23:42 | Public health concerns and documented deaths/illnesses from raw milk | | 25:47 | Anna Merlan’s blunt explanation for abstaining (“I know where the udder is ...”) |

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Tone & Takeaways

The episode balances curiosity, tradition, and skepticism, blending friendly banter with historical and scientific detail. There's equal weight given to the romance of raw milk—local, traditional, “more natural”—and the hard lessons of epidemiology and public health. The episode ultimately cautions listeners: while the raw milk movement is growing, the risks, especially for vulnerable populations, are real and well-documented.

Final message:
Despite the “moovement’s” appeal and political crosscurrents, the science around raw milk safety remains settled for mainstream public health officials—and most Americans would do best to stick with pasteurized milk, unless they really trust their farmer and accept the risks.

Transcript

[A]

Today explained from Vox. Shawn Ramasram here at the historic Old Town Farmers Market in Alexandria, Virginia, on a quest to find something that is not totally legal here across these United States. Raw milk. Mom, have you ever seen raw milk here at this market?

[B]

No.

[A]

Have you ever seen it anywhere?

[B]

Yes, in California and in Sri Lanka.

[A]

You drank raw milk in Sri Lanka?

[B]

Yes, from the day I was born

[A]

till I left Sri Lanka. So you're not impressed with my search for raw milk?

[B]

No, not at all.

[A]

Okay, Mom's not impressed. But I'm still looking for raw milk because more and more people are drinking it, and something like 18 states are currently trying to make it easier to drink right now. Let me see if I can find some. Sir, do you know where I can find raw milk?

[C]

I do not.

[A]

I don't.

[C]

Not here.

[A]

Nobody is that stupid here. Okay, so my farmer's market thing was a bit of a bust, but we're not giving up. We're moving on to Google, and we're gonna find that raw milk on the show today.

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[B]

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[A]

Okay, Mom. We weren't able to find any raw milk at the Farmer's Market in Alexandria, Virginia, but I think we might be able to find some out here in Glen arm, Maryland, about 20 miles northwest of Baltimore.

[C]

Are you ready?

[B]

Yes. I'm excited.

[A]

All right, that's the spirit. Let me kick this off more formally. So we are standing here in a field in Glenarm, Maryland. And your name, sir?

[C]

My name is Matt Priggle and we're

[A]

here with Bobby Priggle. Are you guys related?

[C]

Yes. I'm his youngest son.

[A]

Very nice. Okay. And we are at the Pringle Creamery.

[C]

Yep, Priggle Creamery. Also Priggle Farm. My great, great grandfather got the property. We're on now in 1895.

[A]

Amazing. And has it always been dairy or back then.

[C]

Historically, farms did a little bit of everything. And then over the time and generations, it's consolidated. Now it's a dairy farm. The dairy is our bread and butter. And then we also are registered to sell raw milk in the state of Maryland as a pet food. So we do offer raw milk for cats and dogs.

[A]

Interesting. But not for humans.

[C]

It's illegal to sell milk in Maryland for human consumption.

[A]

Okay, so how big is your raw milk for pet purposes in terms of your business?

[C]

So the milk for cats and dogs, week to week, is roughly the same or more in sales at the Gramery than the pasteurized milk.

[A]

Wow. So a lot of people want this milk for their cats and dogs.

[C]

Sounds like it, yeah.

[A]

Is there, like, a bit of a wig king situation here?

[C]

Nope. No winking, no nothing.

[A]

They're not buying it for their cats and dogs, and they're drinking it themselves.

[C]

Pet food. What they do with it when they leave the store, you know, I can't control that. It's up to them.

[A]

But it's possible.

[C]

Yeah. I didn't think it's possible people were eating Tide pods not that long ago.

[A]

Have you seen an uptick in interest in raw milk here at the Creamery?

[C]

I would say it's been steady for the past couple years.

[A]

Oh, wow. There's some cows trying to do. Oh, wow. Wow. That wasn't just an attempt at fornication, but also a bowel movement.

[C]

Did you notice that they have a couple party tricks. If you stick around long enough, you'll see some stuff.

[A]

Sorry, I got distracted. We were at. Oh, there's been an uptick in interest.

[C]

I think the interest has been kind of the same as far as, like, what goes on with our store. But as far as, you know, like, the nation in general, I think there's been a big movement and big change in interest. You know, our government currently, there's a lot of hype and push about social media. There's a lot of information coming out about it. You don't think we sell a lot more now than we did last year? Not right now. I think we've grown exponentially. Whoa.

[A]

We've got some father son disagreement here. It sounds like you're maybe looking at those numbers a little more closely. And what are you seeing?

[C]

I think people are more interested. They're reading more about it, hearing more about it. Have interest.

[A]

You mentioned some political trends that have perhaps facilitated more interest in raw milk. Are you talking about the federal government, that MAHA business and all that?

[C]

Yeah, I mean, People should just get to choose, right? I mean, you go to the grocery store, you get to pick all you want. If you want to have raw milk, you should be able to go get that.

[A]

Do you drink raw milk every day? Really?

[C]

Wow.

[A]

And you, sir?

[C]

Absolutely, absolutely. If our kids drank raw milk, I wouldn't drink anything else.

[A]

You wouldn't drink anything else?

[C]

I have an option of drinking raw milk or pasteurized milk in the same refrigerator. I pull raw milk every day.

[A]

Are you guys like glass of milk guys? Are you talking about like with your cereal or what?

[C]

I had a glass of milk with my steak last night.

[A]

I had it in my coffee with your dinner.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Now I'm not going to be offended by your answers to this question, but I want you to guess what kind of milk I drink.

[C]

Oat milk. Which isn't milk, by the way. It's. It's oat oil.

[A]

Oat oil. Oat juice. I'm laughing because you guessed correctly in one guess.

[C]

Well, there's nothing wrong. Like I don't care. Like if you want, by all means, drink as much as you want. But it's not milk. Cuz milk by definition has to come from a mammal's mammary glands and it doesn't. It's. It's pressed and secreted oils and water that gets diluted and flavored down so you can actually drink it.

[A]

I will say, unlike the other soy boys who come to visit you guys, I kind of have some lactose issues. So my drinking of oat milk, you know, it's a nice alternative for those of us who get some stomach issues when we drink milk. Of course, the reason most of us don't drink raw milk in this country is because many, many decades ago, we discovered that through pasteurization we could avoid a whole host of diseases that were killing kids, including salmonella, listeria, tuberculosis, it turns out E. Coli. There's a lot of questions now about bird flu in the raw milk. Your thoughts?

[C]

So historically, the biggest problem, like you said, many, many decades ago, it was 100 years ago and people had this idea that nothing's changed in the past hundred years with the agricultural practices around. So historically. So what happened was grains and distilling became really big in the 1920s, right? So all the distilleries were in the city and they were bringing in wheat in and barley and oats and everything and doing all the distilling process and they had all these leftover grains and didn't know what to do with them. And they said, well, let's feed it to cows. All the dairy farms are out in the country. Why are we shipping everything in? Why don't we just bring the dairy into the city next to the distillery, and we'll just go from one building into the next and give it to them? Well, the problem was one, no nutritional value left in the grains that the cows were eating. The cows were kept indoors, which is ripe for sanitation issues. Also, in that era, there was no closed systems. There was poor refrigeration as well. And over time, now our milk, we like to see it around 36 degrees. Okay. And then we have a closed milking system. Right. So the milk never actually touches the air until it getting bottled or you open the cap for the first time.

[A]

Do you guys ever have people show up here who are curious about raw milk for their pets or maybe for another purpose, who talk about those anxieties around listeria, salmonella, anything like that, and then have questions for you guys?

[C]

So listeria is a groundwater issue. And we get tested. Well, the health department comes out once a year and tests our groundwater. So that gets tested on a periodic. And then the biggest concern most people have with raw milk is E. Coli. And the problem with the fela is you have thousands of cows in one spot. It's very easy for it to transmit. So when it goes to slaughter, one bad cow can get everywhere just by hands, moving. We're a single herd. These are all of our cows. No one touches it but us. And it goes from here to the processor and then onto our shelves.

[A]

You would tell someone who showed up here with some anxieties over raw milk not to worry about it?

[C]

I would never tell them that. Here's the thing, right? If you lived in Pennsylvania, I could give you a whole lot of different answers, but if they're worried or concerned, I would tell them not to drink it. There's always a chance I wouldn't buy raw milk for me to consume or my family if I wasn't able to visit the farm and see how the practices are. And if you can't visit the farm, I wouldn't drink their milk. Okay.

[A]

And obviously, that's not how most Americans consume their food. Correct.

[C]

I think if you're buying raw milk, it should come from your state and it should come from your farmer. I think you should find your farmer

[A]

and you should keep it there.

[C]

Yeah. I don't think milk from California should come in to the East Coast. The amount of time it takes in transportation. There's too many variables where things can go wrong. It needs to be a hyper local product.

[A]

Now, if I were to ask about trying some raw milk, how does that work in the state of Maryland?

[C]

I would have to recommend you don't, because it's not pasteurized and maybe maybe contain some harmful bacteria now.

[A]

And I can't buy some to try right now to say I lived a little bit while I was out here, but I could buy some for my mom's dog. Yeah.

[C]

Milk for cats and dogs. Yeah.

[A]

So maybe I could buy some of that now, if I were to drink some of that, that's my business.

[C]

I recommend you don't, though.

[A]

Got it.

[C]

But you do. I drink raw milk every day.

[A]

And when was the last time it made you sick?

[C]

I have never been sick that I'm aware of from consuming it. I rarely ever get sick to begin with.

[A]

Well, I'm gonna buy some. And what I do with it is your business is my business. And on this Memorial Day, there's something beautiful about that.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Well, thank you and happy Memorial Day to you guys.

[C]

It looks like you're working through it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Cows always gotta be milked.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

Work never ends.

[A]

That's right. They don't know it's Memorial Day.

[C]

They don't care.

[A]

I'm shaking the raw milk and then I'm trying the raw milk. Here we go. Opening the raw milk. Oh, wow. Yeah. Smelling the raw milk. What does it smell like?

[C]

Different stuff.

[A]

It doesn't smell like anything. Let me shake it one more time just to be extra sure, you know? Okay. Here we go. Wish me luck. Tastes like milk. How you doing? Do you want to try it? One sip. All right. Mom's trying the raw milk. Here we go.

[C]

What do you think? If nobody told you, you wouldn't know.

[A]

If nobody told you, you wouldn't know. Yeah, I bet it's true. Unless I get salmonella later.

[B]

You won't.

[A]

Mom says I won't. It's two days later now, and I didn't. But my tummy did feel a little funny that Memorial Day night, if I'm being completely honest. But as I said, I got some lactose issues, so it's still oat oil for me. When we're back on Today Explained, we're gonna hear about the movement raw milk's having not just in Glenarm, Maryland, but across country. Support for the show today comes from quo. Missed calls and slow follow ups are silent killers. Yikes. That's how businesses leave money on the table without ever realizing. That's why today's episode is brought to you by Quo spelled Q U O like status. The business communication system built so you never miss a call. Quo isn't just a phone system, it's a smart one. AI hello automatically logs, calls, generates summaries and flags next steps so nothing falls through the cracks. And it can even qualify leads or respond after hours so your business stays on even when you're off. And Quo says it's easy. Calls, text, voicemails, transcripts, and contact details all in one clean view so your team always has the full picture and can show up for every customer conversation, ensuring a seamless and more personalized experience. Money is on the line. You can always say hello with Quo. You can try quo for free plus get 20% off your first six months when you go to quo.com explained. That's qU-U-O.com explained.

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[B]

girl. Winter is so last season and now spring's got you looking at pictures of tank tops with hungry eyes. Your algorithm is feeding you cutoffs. You're thirsty for the sun on that perfect hang on the patio sundress. Those sandals you can wear all day and all night. And you've had enough of shopping from your couch. Done. Hoping it looks anything like the picture when you tear open that envelope. It's time for a little in person spring treat. It's time for a trip to Ross. Work your magic.

[A]

We gotta circulate this home radio.

[C]

All right, what do we circulate? Looking for a man who has recently drunk milk?

[B]

My name is Anna Merlyn and I'm a senior reporter at Mother Jones covering disinformation, extremism and technology.

[A]

I guess if you've like hung around on either side of the like, ideological spectrum for the past decade or two, you've probably heard someone talking about raw milk. For me, I've heard like lefty crunchy people talking about raw milk personally, but raw milk is having a moment right now in these United States. We are not united on raw milk. What is going on with raw milk?

[B]

There is definitely an increasing interest in raw milk, especially the idea of increased like raw milk legalization and selling raw milk across state lines, which I think Even under the second Trump administration. And RFK is not super likely. The FDA has enforced their ban on the interstate sale of raw milk since the 1980s. But there is a bill out there in committee right now, and there's also tons of bills at the state level to continue making raw milk even more accessible in various states. There are like 40 plus bills across 18 states that have to do with, you know, raw dairy, raw cheese. Oklahoma just passed one.

[D]

Congratulations, Oklahoma. We are one step closer to food freedom.

[B]

Raw milk is now legal to advertise and sell, sell up to 1500 gallons. So this is super awesome for Oklahomans. Raw milk is legal to some degree in 43 states, but it varies really widely. So in some places, like California, where I live, you can go to the store and buy raw milk. In other places, you can access it through what's called a herd share, which is a legal agreement where consumers have access to a milking animal or a herd and they can buy or get the milk directly from the farmer. In other places, raw milk is only legal as pet food. But, you know, obviously there's nothing stopping people, if they really insist on it, from buying and drinking milk labeled as pet food.

[A]

And then I bought and drank some pet food, raw milk yesterday, Anna.

[B]

Yes, I imagine you did because you're in D.C. that's right.

[A]

I had to go to Maryland to do it though.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So D.C. is one of the places where raw milk is illegal. Rhode Island, I believe it is totally illegal, except I think you can get raw goat milk with a prescription from a doctor. It's also illegal in Hawaii, but yeah, most places in the US you're going to be able to get raw milk in some form.

[A]

Remind us why we decided to pasteurize our milk or what the benefits were.

[B]

Right. So one of the first kind of big pushes for pasteurization of milk came in the 1930s after the discovery that raw milk could transmit tuberculosis, which was killing a lot of babies.

[A]

Pasteurized milk, a safe food trusted by

[C]

millions of people and important in every diet.

[A]

Let's go back to middle school for a quick refresher on pasteurization. It's a centuries old process that heats up milk to kill off bacteria like salmonella, listeria or E. Coli, then cools it back down.

[B]

By heating raw milk to at least 161Fahrenheit for 15 seconds and letting it cool, we can reduce the amount of viruses and bacteria in dairy. And so there was a pretty direct relationship between more and more places requiring pasteurization and infant mortality. Rates going down. And so after that, it was pretty clear to most people in most public health bodies that this was a good idea.

[A]

Okay, so there are some clear risks here. Before pasteurization came around, and then they were saying, basically, pasteurize your milk, warm it up a little bit, and we will keep more kids alive.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then since that, you know, medical breakthrough, basically, we've been trying to dial it back. Why are we trying to dial it back? And who's doing the dialing?

[B]

So pretty much since pasteurization became a widespread thing, there has been opposition to it. And the raw milk movement has always argued that raw milk is better for you, that it's more natural, it's actually

[C]

healing and very beneficial for your body.

[B]

Raw milk will not spoil like conventional milk does. For instance, when I Talked to Mark McAfee, who's the founder and CEO of Raw Farm, the biggest raw milk producer in the country, he told me that raw milk makes asthma go away, which is not true. According to public health experts, virologists, asthma experts, you will see arguments that raw milk is good for allergies, it has beneficial enzymes or bacteria. And this is pretty much the argument that's been made since the raw milk movement sort of organized and took force. Is this idea that raw milk inherently has nutrients and good qualities that are stripped from pasteurized milk.

[A]

And these groups that are advocating for more raw milk, do they necessarily hew to, like, a certain political party?

[B]

I think that historically, raw milk, like anti vaccine ideas kind of cut equally across the right and the left. You know, I grew up in a pretty blue part of New Mexico, and with certain see raw milk being sold and discussed. So not the way that it is now, but definitely, you know, a lot of the places that you're seeing raw milk legislation especially picking up are red states because of ideas around government regulation and health freedom.

[A]

And like, of course, red state, blue state, you know, crunchy, or libertarian, distrustful of government wherever it might be. You might find some affinity in our current Secretary of Health and Human Services, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Who, yes, last year famously did a shot of raw milk at the White House.

[B]

He sure did want to do a

[A]

shot of raw milk. Toast this with me. All right, Secretary Kennedy.

[B]

Cheers.

[A]

Cheers.

[B]

He did a little shooter of raw milk to celebrate the publication of the Maha report, which was meant to be his big kind of capstone piece of writing presenting solutions for chronic disease and was full of AI slop and fake citations, in which you will notice they don't talk about very much anymore.

[A]

Did that quash his attempt to normalize raw milk at the federal level.

[B]

So this is what's super interesting. Before Kennedy was in office as HHS secretary, he was famously, really bullish on raw milk.

[A]

I was here last year. I only drank raw milk.

[B]

He had this famous tweet in 2024 where he talked about all the things that the FDA was gonna stop suppressing under his leadership. You know, he said, the FDA's war on public health is about to end, and he listed all these things, including raw milk. But since then, much to the frustration of big players in the raw milk industry, there actually hasn't been any federal action to make raw milk more legal or to make it legal across state lines. Kennedy actually hasn't done anything on that. And Mark McAfee told me that he can't get Kennedy to, like, return his calls.

[C]

Huh.

[B]

One thing that has happened instead, though, is that the Trump administration has suddenly been trumpeting their emphasis on whole milk. Right. Oh, you might have seen this a few months ago. They were saying, you know, we're bringing whole milk back to the schools.

[A]

So today, I'm delighted to sign the Whole Milk for Healthy Kids act into law.

[B]

Whole milk is no longer illegal in America, which it never, never was.

[A]

It's like the war on Christmas.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

And he's also ended the war on saturated fat.

[B]

So, yeah, a lot of their language around whole milk really echoes kind of the language around raw milk that you see among raw milk advocates, but it's not. They actually have not talked about raw milk at all. So you can. You can speculate, you know, why this might have happened. If this is a liability issue, if there are still people at the CDC and the FDA who are like, it would be a really bad idea for the federal government to promote this. But, yeah, I would say that for raw milk and raw dairy advocates, the fact that the Trump administration has not been on their side is clearly a big disappointment.

[A]

Well, anecdotal, Anna, but the creamery I visited yesterday, Pregel, out in Glenarm, Maryland, they said raw milk was a big boon to their business. I mean, even though they only sell it for cats and dogs, it certainly seems like people are drinking it. Are public health officials other than the Secretary of Health and Human Services worried about that trend? If there is one.

[B]

So, earlier this year, an infant died in New Mexico from listeria that public health officials there think was probably linked to the infant's mom drinking it during pregnancy. And there have been, you know, a bunch of foodborne illness outbreaks. So, yeah, I Think this is a concern for people because raw milk can carry E. Coli, salmonella, campylobacter, things that can make you really, really sick. So there are concerns here, right? One obviously is the increasing availability of raw milk in various places. Another concern is that it is being marketed by health influencers and other people with big social media followings as like a miracle cure in a very simplistic way. And it is especially being marketed to parents as a cure all for children, which is concerning because raw milk and dairy are especially risky for infants, immune compromised people and elderly people. You know, an illness like E. Coli that could be, you know, serious, but you would make it through potentially as an adult is incredibly serious for a child and can lead to this thing called hemolytic uremic syndrome, which has sickened and killed children. The raw milk industry tends to talk about this idea that raw milk is safe if you trust your farmer. But when you talk to, like a virologist, they will tell you that no matter how well you know your farmer, how much you think you trust the dairy, if you're not pasteurizing your milk, you're going to be at more risk of common foodborne pathogens. So, you know, you can find the farm to be delightful in every way and it will not prevent you from illness. You know, ideally we would not be continuing to litigate like really well established pieces of science and we could move on to other stuff. But instead we are, you know, talking about raw milk again and whether it's a good idea.

[A]

So I take it, despite it being available at, say, the grocery store around the corner from you, you, Anna Merlin, are not going out to buy any.

[B]

You know, I grew up partly on a ranch and I have actually seen cows before and I know how they're shaped and I know where the udder is compared to, for instance, the cow's asshole. So, no, I am personally not going to drink raw milk. If your listeners want to look at the FDA or the cdc, there's a page on the FDA right now at the moment called raw milk misconceptions and the Danger of Raw Milk consumption. And you can read a lot about the counterarguments to these common claims that people make about raw milk. For instance, that it contains, you know, beneficial bacteria or enzymes or something like there's. There's very, very good evidence about raw milk's actual dangers and risks.

[A]

Anna Merlin, Mother Jones.com shout outs to my mother for making the time. Shout outs to Avishai Artsy for making today's show with help from Amna Al Saudi, David Tadashore, Bridger Dunnigan and Gabriel Donatov. It's today, explained. Sarah.