Republicans have a Nazi problem

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: Today, Explained
Episode: Republicans have a Nazi problem
Hosts: Noel King, Sean Rameswaram
Guests: Jonah Goldberg (The Dispatch), David Gilbert (WIRED)
Date: November 12, 2025

---

Episode Overview

This episode explores a controversy erupting within the American conservative movement: the growing influence and mainstreaming of openly extremist, white nationalist, and neo-Nazi figures, specifically Nick Fuentes, within Republican Party media and institutions. The recent interview of Fuentes by Tucker Carlson and the subsequent alignment (or lack of condemnation) by organizations like the Heritage Foundation have ignited deep disagreements, internal conflict, and public alarm. The hosts examine the roots of this problem and ask: How and why has the American right come to include such elements in its coalition?

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Catalyst: Fuentes Interviewed by Tucker Carlson

• [00:00-00:28] The episode opens by recounting a series of alarming events: Young Republicans discussing Hitler in group chats, followed by Tucker Carlson hosting notorious Holocaust denier and white nationalist Nick Fuentes.
  • Noel King: “Fuentes, a proud anti-Semite, said stuff that people thought Tucker would disavow. Tucker didn’t.”
• [02:09-06:08] Jonah Goldberg provides context on Carlson, Fuentes, and the Heritage Foundation and relays the conservative response to Carlson's interview, which many felt irresponsibly platformed extremism.

2. The Heritage Foundation’s Response

• [06:08-09:39] After blowback, Heritage Foundation President Kevin Roberts defends ongoing support for Carlson. Instead of distancing the think tank from extremism, Roberts calls for unity against “the left,” which observers interpret as a dog whistle.
  • Kevin Roberts [06:37]: “We won't start [canceling conservatives] now… The venomous coalition attacking him are sowing division.”
  • Jonah Goldberg [06:37]: “Nobody disputes that this video statement was a complete friggin’ disaster. ...The video utterly backfired and caused a whole firestorm of controversy.”
  • Heritage staff are warned not to leak internal discussions—a warning that is immediately ignored.
  • The schism within conservative ranks deepens; younger staffers have mixed feelings, further revealing coalition fractures.

3. The Republican Coalition Debate: Who Belongs?

• [09:53-13:12] Goldberg argues this battle is about more than the Heritage Foundation or Tucker Carlson—it’s about the future boundaries of the right.
  • Some believe the GOP must become a "popular front," even welcoming extremists to maximize numbers and energy.
  • This “big tent” hypocrisy is pointed out: as those making space for neo-Nazis are happy to expel traditional conservatives.
  • Key Quote – Jonah Goldberg [11:58]: “You have to expel the lunatics. ...If you don’t have boundaries... the movement will destroy itself.”
  • The looming post-Trump right intensifies these questions: “It’s gonna be a fight that is going to unfold for a while... This is one of these early skirmishes in that longer-term battle.” [12:53]

4. Explaining Nick Fuentes’ Appeal and Influence

• [16:30-21:13] David Gilbert explains why Fuentes, once marginalized, wields significant grassroots power—especially with alienated young white men.
  • David Gilbert: “He covers a lot of the infighting within the right wing media.”
  • Fuentes' platform: anti-Semitism, anti-immigrant, and anti-feminist rhetoric.
  • Representative quote – Nick Fuentes [17:05]: “This is a white country. We should deport illegal immigrants to sustain the white demographics.”
  • Explicit support for Hitler and Holocaust denial, along with virulent misogyny.

5. Fuentes’ Strategy and Relationships with Conservative Influencers

• [21:13-25:52] Fuentes has evolved from fringe outlier to sought-after guest by mainstream right-wing figures (Carlson, Alex Jones, Candace Owens).
  • Feuds with other conservative figures, especially Charlie Kirk, are leveraged to boost his profile and test the boundaries of conservative discourse.
  • His main tool: activating a resentful, disaffected, and digitally-networked audience.
  • David Gilbert [23:38]: “People like Tucker Carlson are afraid of being left behind ...Fuentes has tapped into something. His audience is this young, white male audience that is incredibly powerful.”

6. “Infiltrate from Within” – Fuentes' Political Playbook

• [25:23-26:37] Rather than build a visible movement, Fuentes now instructs supporters to operate covertly inside institutions:
  • Nick Fuentes [25:23]: “I want groipers [his followers] to go to Yale, go to Stanford, go to Harvard, infiltrate the government.”
  • Gilbert describes this as “smart and really dangerous”—difficult to track and increasingly effective—posing a significant future threat to mainstream Republican politics.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Carlson’s Interview Conduct, Softballing Extremism:
  • Jonah Goldberg [05:21]: “It was particularly appalling because we know that Tucker CAN ask hard questions... [but] when he talks to a guy who says he loves Stalin and Hitler and thinks women really want to be raped... he's like, ‘hmm, tell me more.’”
• On the Coalition Crisis:
  • Noel King [04:36]: “And this is about coalitions. Ultimately, this became about who is in whose camp.”
• On the Conservative Movement’s Failure to Draw Boundaries:
  • Jonah Goldberg [11:58]: “If you don’t have boundaries on who you regard inside the movement, the movement will destroy itself and it will create a PR nightmare for everybody in it. You have to expel the lunatics.”
• On the Hypocrisy of Populist ‘Big Tent’ Arguments:
  • Jonah Goldberg [12:27]: “They just use the language of inclusiveness for some of the worst people in the world because they think there’s a political advantage to it.”
• On Fuentes’ Appeal to Young Men:
  • David Gilbert [24:19]: “He speaks to these young men who may be struggling to find their identity in the US—struggling to get a job, struggling in relationships, or to find a community of friends. And Fuentes tapped into that.”
• On Present and Future Danger:
  • David Gilbert [26:02]: “[Fuentes] says he’s got supporters within the administration ... who are infiltrating local political parties and ... he is, from the ground up, going to try and influence how the Republican Party acts over the next 10 years. And he is doing it really smartly and in a really dangerous way that it's very, very hard for anyone to know what’s happening.”

---

Important Timestamps

• 00:00-00:28: Opening: Republicans' Nazi problem; Tucker Carlson's interview with Fuentes
• 02:09-06:08: Jonah Goldberg explains stakeholders and the shock at Carlson’s platforming of Fuentes
• 06:08-09:39: Heritage Foundation's response and internal revolt
• 09:53-13:12: Broader implications: coalition conflict and future of the right
• 16:30-21:13: David Gilbert on Nick Fuentes’ worldview, tactics, and fringe-to-mainstream trajectory
• 21:13-25:52: Fuentes’ influence on the right, relationships with figures like Charlie Kirk, and recruitment strategies
• 25:23-26:37: The “stealth infiltration” strategy advocated by Fuentes

---

Tone, Language, and Final Thoughts

The episode's panelists—particularly Goldberg and Gilbert—speak plainly, even bluntly, about the dangers posed by the mainstreaming of extremist figures. They express alarm at the apparent lack of boundaries now tolerable on the right and stress that the current episode is not a historical aberration but a pivotal struggle about the party's future. The underlying warning: the inability or unwillingness of institutions and leaders to draw lines against outright hate not only damages their moral standing but also threatens the viability and public image of the conservative movement itself.

---

For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This episode is a deep dive into how mainstream parts of the Republican coalition are currently negotiating the presence—sometimes the embrace—of unapologetic neo-Nazi and white supremacist elements, exemplified by Nick Fuentes. The conversation explores how opportunism, shifting demographics, and the desire for youthful energy have lowered ideological barriers in conservative ranks. It is a cautionary tale about what happens when drawing boundaries is mistaken for “cancel culture”—and when short-term attention is prioritized over principle.

Transcript

[Noel King]

Only three weeks ago, after the Young Republicans I love Hitler group chat, we asked this question coming up, do the Republicans have a Nazi problem? Could have ended there, guys. But then Tucker Carlson interviewed Nick Fuentes.

[Religious Conservative Commentator]

I'm sorry I called you gay, by the way. Why aren't people married?

[Nick Fuentes (or a voice representing his views)]

Well, I mean, honestly, it's the women.

[Noel King]

Fuentes, a proud anti Semite, said stuff that people thought Tucker would disavow. Tucker didn't.

[Religious Conservative Commentator]

You're a fan of Stalin's?

[Nick Fuentes (or a voice representing his views)]

Oh, he's an admirer.

[Noel King]

Next up, the Heritage Foundation.

[Kevin Roberts]

The bed Christians can critique the state of Israel without being anti Semitic.

[Noel King]

Vice President J.D. just kids. Vance got weirdly quiet. Ben Shapiro got enraged. Chris Rufo tried to spin it.

[Nick Fuentes (or a voice representing his views)]

Nick Fuentes is not a Nazi. He's using the symbols of Nazism to drive controversy and then to increase his kind of attention and notoriety.

[Noel King]

Oh, okay. Coming up on Today, explained. Yeah, Republicans have a Nazi problem.

[Apple Mac Advertiser]

Every story you love, every invention that moves you, every idea you wished was yours, all began as nothing. Just a blank page with a blinking cursor asking a simple question. What do you see? Great ideas. Start on Mac. Find out more on apple.com Mac by.

[Bilt Advertiser]

Now you've probably heard of Bilt, where you can earn points on your monthly rent payment. But did you know they make it possible for you to get more outside of your home too? By paying rent through bilt, you earn flexible points that can be redeemed towards hundreds of hotels and airlines, a future rent payment, your next Lyft ride, and more. Earn points on rent and around your neighborhood, wherever you call home, by going to joinbuilt.com Vox that's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T.com Vox make sure to use our URL so they know we sent you.

[David Gilbert]

This is TODAY Explained.

[Noel King]

I'm Noel King with Jonah Goldberg. Jonah writes at the Dispatch. He is famously a never Trump Republican. He's a Reagan guy, but he remains plugged into conservative circles. So we asked him about the right on right violence that erupted after Tucker's interview. And who is involved here?

[Jonah Goldberg]

One is an institution, the Heritage Foundation, a storied think tank in Washington that's over a half century old. Second is the president of the Heritage Foundation, a guy named Kevin Roberts, who has moved it in a very populist, very Trump aligned direction over the last few years.

[Kevin Roberts]

Illegal immigrants waving their country's flags in our city streets. And they're not being arrested and sent home. It's unacceptable.

[Jonah Goldberg]

And then there's Tucker Carlson. A guy I've known for more than 30 years used to be a colleague at Fox, who, after being fired from Fox, has launched his own independent media thing on the web and is doing strange things.

[Religious Conservative Commentator]

It's always the obvious questions that are so vigorously discouraged. And one of the questions that's been the most discouraged over the past 30 years are one of those lines in the sky that you see trailing jets. What is that? Some people call them chemtrails.

[Jonah Goldberg]

And then lastly is this really horrible gargoyle of a human being named Nick Fuentes. Sorry, I just. I try very hard not to think about the guy. He's a leader of a group of mostly alienated, angry young men that in Internet parlance or in social media parlance, people tend to call gripers. He has made a real impact out there for saying the most horrendous things you can say.

[Nick Fuentes (or a voice representing his views)]

In many respects, we are done with the Jewish oligarchy. We are done with the slavish surrender to Israel, the Holocaust, religion and propaganda. You know it, I know it.

[Jonah Goldberg]

But he was one of the guys from the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville. He does not dispute being called a neo Nazi. And so maybe because I have, like, the most Jewy name this side of Shlomo Abramowicz, you might not be surprised that I don't feel like I can be in the same coalition as someone like a Nick Fuentes.

[Noel King]

And this is about coalitions. Ultimately, this became about who is in whose camp. Tell us what happened.

[Jonah Goldberg]

Tucker Carlson had Nick Fuentes on his web show, Tucker Carlson Tonight, or whatever it's called. Very friendly, very softball interview where Carlson basically pushed back on none of Fuentes past statements and current beliefs or anything like that.

[Religious Conservative Commentator]

I'm gonna just shut up and you tell me what you actually believe.

[Nick Fuentes (or a voice representing his views)]

Yeah, well, and listen, I mean, and I appreciate you saying that because it's. That's just the reality of the media environment we're in. So if you. I don't expect you to know all my views, but, I mean, as far as the Jews are concerned, I think that.

[Jonah Goldberg]

And it was appalling. It was particularly appalling because we know that Tucker can ask hard questions. He can grill people. When he disagreed with Ted Cruz about the bombing of Iran, he barely let Ted get awarded edgewise and was constantly quizzing him to knock him off his game.

[Religious Conservative Commentator]

We are commanded as Christians to support the government of Israel.

[Nick Fuentes (or a voice representing his views)]

We are commanded to support Israel. And we're.

[Religious Conservative Commentator]

What does that mean?

[Adobe Express Advertiser]

We're told those.

[Jonah Goldberg]

But when he talks to a guy who Says he loves Stalin and Hitler and thinks women really want to be raped and all of these sorts of things. He's like, hmm, tell me more.

[Religious Conservative Commentator]

You're a fan of Stalin's, Always an admirer.

[Nick Fuentes (or a voice representing his views)]

But we don't need to go into that, I guess.

[Religious Conservative Commentator]

Well, that's okay.

[Jonah Goldberg]

Let's get back to that.

[Religious Conservative Commentator]

We'll circle back to that.

[Jonah Goldberg]

It was weird because, you know, sort of channeling his old Barbara Walters or something like that. And so a lot of people are very cross about this. The Heritage foundation, which advertises with Tucker Carlson. Tucker is the keynote speaker at their 50th anniversary gala. The Heritage foundation got a lot of grief for its association with Tucker. And so Kevin Roberts came out and issued a video statement. Nobody disputes that this video statement was a complete friggin disaster.

[Kevin Roberts]

The Heritage foundation didn't become the intellectual backbone of the conservative movement by canceling our own people or policing the consciences of Christians. And we won't start doing that now.

[Jonah Goldberg]

He said we will not disavow Tucker Carlson anyway. We will not cancel Tucker Carlson. We are joined at the hip with Tucker Carlson.

[Kevin Roberts]

And then he said the venomous coalition attacking him are sowing division. Their attempt to cancel him will fail. Most importantly, the American people expect us to be focusing on our political adversaries on the left, not attacking our friends on the right.

[Jonah Goldberg]

So it was of this serious dog whistle that suggested that, you know, string pulling Machiavellian Jews were behind this and we're not going to cave into it. That was definitely the way it was interpreted by a lot of people outside of Heritage and a lot of people inside Heritage. And so the video utterly backfired and caused a whole firestorm of controversy. And he had this whole very high minded explanation about how we shouldn't cancel people, we should engage in their ideas, we should confront them and argue in the marketplace of ideas. Which all sounds great, except that's not what Tucker Carlson had done. What Tucker Carlson had done was basically just give a megaphone to a neo Nazi. Kevin Roberts had an all hands meeting at the Heritage Foundation. A big chunk of it was dedicated to, to warning staffers that they'll be fired if any video or audio or quotes from this meeting leak. And almost before the meeting was over, the full video had been leaked.

[Kevin Roberts]

It's good to see all of you and thanks for being willing to be here. So I have some notes because I.

[Jonah Goldberg]

Want to make sure so everyone in my world has watched big chunks of it, if not all of it. One of the things that the video revealed was that there were. There are people at Heritage, young people at Heritage, who are not neo Nazis. But they liked Kevin Roberts initial statement. They've got some issues with Israel. They've got some issues with people who defend Israel.

[Adobe Express Advertiser]

Gen Z has an increased unfavorable view of Israel. And it's not because millions of Americans are anti Semitic. It's because we are Catholic and Orthodox and believe that Christian Zionism is a modern heresy.

[Jonah Goldberg]

And then there were other people who were like, you guys are losing your minds. We cannot be associated with anti Semites and crazy people. If you don't have boundaries on who you regard inside the movement, the movement will destroy itself and it will create a PR nightmare for everybody in it. You have to expel the lunatics. Kevin Roberts did not resign, as many people wanted him to and many people thought he was going to be fired. But he did basically throw his chief of staff under the bus. Kevin Roberts defense was basically that he is the right wing Ron Burgundy and if you put it in a teleprompter, he will read it.

[Kevin Roberts]

When the script was presented to me, I understood from our former colleague that it was approved, it was signed off.

[Jonah Goldberg]

So it was not a profile encourage moment.

[Noel King]

What does all of this mean? Like, what is all of this about?

[Jonah Goldberg]

So it's about a lot of different things. So part of it is just simply an argument about what kind of coalition you're going to have. But it's broader than that. One of the things that the defenders of Tucker Carlson and the defenders of the Heritage foundation will say, often with a little more paranoia than I think is warranted, is that this is really all a proxy war about JD Vance.

[Noel King]

Huh?

[Jonah Goldberg]

I think that's overstated. It is not all a proxy war about JD Vance, but JD Vance does lurk in the background here because Vance has blazed a path here where he, you know, he's defended young Republican officials who, you know, had these chats about how awesome Auschwitz jokes are and how Nazis are cool. He also would not be vice president but for the fact that Tucker Carlson lobbied extensively for him. And if Tucker becomes radioactive, that's bad for Vance. If this crowd that he has defended and considers part of his coalition is purged, that's bad for. And so I do think that that's part of what's going on. But I also think that, look, there are a lot of people who don't think that the right should be a popular front. Right. Historically, popular fronts are this thing more common on the left, which, on the left, it used to be no enemies to the left and it was like don't shoot inside the tent. Don't pick on. So what if we have Stalinists in our coalition? We're trying to stop the bad guys, right? That's the argument that is being used on the right right now, is that the right needs to become a popular front, needs to be a big tent. We need gripers and groiper curious people to be part of our coalition because they bring youth and passion and energy and yada yada, yada. I think it's all nonsense, but it's also hypocritical because the very people like J.D. vance and others who, who are trying to make the Republican coalition a safer place for these people say that, you know, we have to purge the neocons from the conservative movement. That we don't want to hear from the zombie Reaganite crowd. Right? They are, they have no problem silencing and trying to cancel members of the coalition they consider to be rivals. They just use the language of inclusiveness for some of the worst people in the world because they think there's a political advantage to it. And so it's gonna be a fight that is going to unfold for a while because Donald Trump, either for actuarial or constitutional reasons, is not gonna be around forever. And so people are already trying to figure out what the post Trump Wright looks like. And this is one of these early skirmishes in that longer term battle.

[Noel King]

Jonah Goldberg of the Dispatch coming up, who is Nick Fuentes and why do millions of young men find him so very, very compelling? Support for Today explained comes from Shopify. Shopify believes that one of the most exciting parts of starting a business is when the sales start coming in. That makes sense if your business is looking to start selling online. Shopify has everything you need to create your online store. Shopify says they're the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world. And they say 10% of all E commerce in the US from those household names like Mattel and Gymshark to newer brands with hundreds of ready to use templates. Shopify says Shopify can help you build a beautiful online store to match your brand's style. They say their platform is packed with those AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines, and even enhance your product photography. Best of all, according to Shopify, Shopify can help your business with world class expertise in everything from managing your inventory to international shipping, to processing returns and so much more. If you want to see fewer carts being abandoned, it's time for you to head over to Shopify, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com explained. Go to shopify.com explained that shopify.com explained support for today Explained comes from Rippling. Rippling is not a stack of disconnected apps. Rippling is a unified plat for global hr, payroll, IT and finance. According to Rippling, Rippling has helped many replace their mess of cobbled together tools with one system designed to give leaders clarity, speed, control. By uniting employees, teams and departments in one system, Rippling can help remove those bottlenecks, that busy work, those silos that your software might have created. It's automated. It's in sync. It's simple. Rippling can give your company a one stop shop for your people, their data, everything they touch. With Rippling you can run your entire hr, IT and finance operations as one or pick and choose the products that work for you right now. You can get six months free when you go to rippling.com explained. Learn more at r I p l I n g.com explained that's rippling.com explained for six months free. Terms and conditions do apply.

[Apple Mac Advertiser]

Every story you love, every invention that moves you, Every idea you wished was yours. All began as nothing, just a blank page with a blinking cursor asking a simple question. What do you see? Great ideas. Start on Mac. Find out more on apple.com Mac.

[Jonah Goldberg]

You'Re.

[Nick Fuentes (or a voice representing his views)]

Listening to Today Explained.

[Noel King]

We're back with David Gilbert. He's a reporter for Wired who covers disinformation and online extremism and for those reasons he has watched a lot of Nick Fuentes show.

[David Gilbert]

I probably follow him a bit too much. He typically tends to stream for two or three hours every single night. Monday to Friday. He covers a lot of the infighting within the right wing media.

[Nick Fuentes (or a voice representing his views)]

It's all these country club Republicans like Megyn Kelly. You're not out here. You don't get it. You don't live the lives we live, especially the young people. You're not dealing with this stuff that we're dealing with.

[David Gilbert]

He talks about immigration quite a lot.

[Nick Fuentes (or a voice representing his views)]

This is a white country. We should deport illegal immigrants to sustain the white demographics.

[David Gilbert]

He obviously talks about the Trump administration quite a lot.

[Nick Fuentes (or a voice representing his views)]

Something's wrong with him, man. And something he's not right in the head.

[David Gilbert]

But I suppose one of the main or the main topic he talks about, and it typically comes back to this every single time, is a deeply anti Semitic worldview that he has that he blames Israel and the Jewish people for all the ills of society.

[Nick Fuentes (or a voice representing his views)]

The American President has to stand up to this tiny country. But would you like to know why the American President can't do that? The Republican Jewish Coalition, aipac, the adl, it's all going to come down on that president.

[Noel King]

So there are disparate strands here. There's the anti Israel sentiment, there's the anti Semitic sentiment, there's the anti immigrant sentiment. How would you describe his worldview? What does he represent?

[David Gilbert]

He has a pretty hateful world view. I think what really is surprising of what we've seen most recently, where his profile has risen and he has kind of been embraced by more mainstream members of the right, is the fact that they're kind of ignoring the fact that he has espoused support for Hitler in the past. Mom, dad, Hitler was awesome, Hitler was.

[Nick Fuentes (or a voice representing his views)]

Right, and the Holocaust didn't happen.

[David Gilbert]

That he has talked about raping women as not being that problematic.

[Nick Fuentes (or a voice representing his views)]

A lot of women want to be raped. That sounds bad when I say it like that. But there's like a lot of women that really want a guy to beat the shit out of him.

[David Gilbert]

He has these really hateful views about the world where he feels as if he, as a white male Christian, he's a Catholic, is being attacked and that his homeland is under attack from all these various, you know, whether it's feminism or the woke mob, as he calls it, the woke mind virus. He believes that he is the one that is under attack, that white males, and especially white Christian males have been sidelined in their own country. And that's kind of at the crux of what he believes and why he believes this is because he thinks he's under attack rather than him being the one who's attacking all these other groups.

[Nick Fuentes (or a voice representing his views)]

Go the fuck home. This is America first. I was born in America. This is the only country I've ever known. And I will die for America. Can you say the same?

[David Gilbert]

He didn't vote for Donald Trump in the election. He didn't tell his followers to vote because he felt that Trump was just not being America first enough.

[Nick Fuentes (or a voice representing his views)]

This is one of the most brazen lies to get us into a war that I've ever seen. This is a very thinly veiled pretext for a war with Venezuela, the real object of which is regime change.

[David Gilbert]

In terms of J.D. vance, it's even worse. He thinks Vance has let down American men by not marrying a white Christian woman.

[Nick Fuentes (or a voice representing his views)]

How can someone be expected to really have a nativist interpretation of American identity if their own children are biracial?

[David Gilbert]

He has said that if J.D. vance decides that he is going to run in 2028, which looks like he will. And if the GOP nominate him, then Fuentes will unleash a campaign using his supporters to undermine that candidacy.

[Nick Fuentes (or a voice representing his views)]

J.D. vance is a part of replacement migration. How is he going to be sympathetic to the white natives when he is in bed, literally, with the foreign born?

[Noel King]

In the past couple of years, there has been a cohort of young conservative men and women who have varying relationships with each other and feuds and alliances and whatnot. Talk to me about where he fits in this spectrum of right wing personalities and what his relationships with them are like.

[David Gilbert]

Sure, it's really interesting, and it's not something that is the same as it was, you know, five, six, seven years ago when he was coming up after Unite the Right. And when he kind of began getting noticed, he was viewed as this kind of outlier, this fringe figure who was not really taken with any level of seriousness. And so he was not really being discussed in the same terms as figures like Charlie Kirk, you know, Tucker Carlson, Candace Owens. More recently, those same figures have had to pay attention to him because his audience has grown, especially in the last six months. He has become incredibly more powerful and he knows it too. So he's able to leverage that to get people to pay attention to him. We saw obviously, Tucker Carlson interviewed him recently, which is the most high profile interview he's had to date. We've seen figures like Alex Jones, Candice Owens, they've all had him on their podcast. And, you know, they're varying levels of arguments between themselves. His, his main antagonist and the person he fought with most, of course, was Charlie Kirk, dating back to 2019, when they began what Fuentes labeled the Groiper War, Greipers being the name for the people who support Nick Fuentes. So what he did then was when Charlie Kirk was going around to colleges speaking and debating with people, he would get his supporters to go there and question Charlie Kirk about his support for Israel, question him on immigration, question him on the things that Fuentes believed Charlie Kirk was not being questioned enough about and where he felt he could be attacked because he wasn't being, you know, conservative enough.

[Nick Fuentes (or a voice representing his views)]

Some caller calls into the Charlie Kirk show and says, why won't you debate Nick Fuentes? He goes, I don't debate bad faith actors and trolls who blame the Jews for everything. Oh, yeah, you just debate communists, socialists, Democrats, the Governor of California.

[David Gilbert]

He wasn't being America first enough. Tucker Carlson said that, you know, he was just talking to Nick Fuentes and that he doesn't necessarily agree with all the things he said, but at the same time, he's engaging with him. And I think for Fuentes, that is the win. That's what he wants. He wants people to be able to see him.

[Noel King]

Why do so many people who seem to disagree with him still invite him on, still talk to him? There is something, I assume, that they are getting as well. What is this about?

[David Gilbert]

Of course, I think people like Tucker Carlson are afraid of being left behind because they clearly understand that Fuentes has tapped into something. His audience is this young, white male audience that is incredibly powerful, and people don't want to miss out. So by Tucker Carlson interviewing him, that Tucker Carlson kind of gets a little bit of that aura that Fuentes projects to his supporters. So I think that's the main reason, is that they know Fuentes will drive engagement. If you look at the numbers on Tucker's video, it's huge compared to the others that were posted, you know, for the last couple of weeks.

[Noel King]

What makes him so successful?

[David Gilbert]

I think the fact that he openly talks about the fact that he isn't in a relationship, hasn't really ever had a relationship with a woman, is kind of one of them, is one of the people he speaks to, these young men who may be struggling to find their identity in the US who may be struggling to get a job, struggling to find a house, struggling to find a relationship or. Or a community of friends. And Fuentes tapped into that. There's been an evolution of Nick Fuentes in the last six months where he has seen his star rise. He has gained a huge amount of followers online. Way more people are watching his show every night now. He is earning a huge amount of money from that show. And he is in a position now that I don't think he even believed he would be back, we'll say, in 2020 when he was, you know, kicked off of YouTube and every other platform. He is in a position now where he can enforce change, I think, within the Republican Party from the inside.

[Nick Fuentes (or a voice representing his views)]

I want groipers to go to Yale, go to Stanford, go to Harvard, infiltrate the government.

[David Gilbert]

He's smart enough to do it by not creating an organization where people can be identified as members of the Nick Fuentes fan club. You know, he tells his followers, don't identify yourself as groipers. Do it under the radar. Become a member of your local Republican Party. Influence people from the inside, not from the outside.

[Nick Fuentes (or a voice representing his views)]

It is incumbent on all adolescent young men that want to save this country, that want to preserve what your ancestors built to get involved in politics.

[David Gilbert]

And he says, and it's very hard to verify this completely, but he says he's got supporters within the administration, he has got supporters all across the country who are infiltrating local political parties and that he is, from the ground up, going to try and influence how the Republican Party acts over the next 10 years. And he is doing it really smartly and in a really dangerous way that it's very, very hard for anyone to know what's happening.

[Noel King]

David Gilbert is a reporter with Wired. Miles Bryan and Hadi Mwogzi produced today's show. Jolie Myers edited. Laura Bullard checks the facts. Patrick Boyd and Adrian Lilly engineered. I'm Noel King. It's today.

[Jonah Goldberg]

Foreign.

[Adobe Express Advertiser]

As marketing channels have multiplied, the demand for content has skyrocketed. But everyone can make content that's on brand and stands out. With Adobe Express, you don't have to be a designer to generate images, rewrite text and create effects. That's the beauty of generative AI that's commercially safe. Teams all across your business will be psyched to collaborate and create amazing presentations, videos, social posts, flyers and more. Meet Adobe Express, the quick and easy app to create on brand content. Learn [e-mail] Express Business.