Retire? In this economy?!

Summary

Today, Explained: "Retire? In this Economy!!" Episode Summary

Podcast Information

• Title: Today, Explained
• Host/Author: Vox
• Description: Today, Explained is Vox's daily news explainer podcast. Hosts Sean Rameswaram and Noel King guide listeners through the most important stories of the day.
• Network: Part of the Vox Media Podcast Network
• Episode Title: Retire? In this Economy!!
• Release Date: April 27, 2025

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Introduction

In the April 27, 2025 episode of Today, Explained titled "Retire? In this Economy!!," Vox delves into the pressing concerns of older Americans contemplating retirement amidst economic uncertainties. Hosts John Hill and Noah Shidelower engage with personal finance columnist Michelle Singletary to unpack the multifaceted challenges facing baby boomers and the broader implications for retirement planning.

Key Topics Discussed

Economic Uncertainty and Retirement Concerns

The episode opens with listeners like Claire and John Hill voicing their anxieties about retiring in the current economic climate. Claire, at 58, contemplates retiring from her state job but is unsure if she has sufficient savings. John Hill, aged 66, expresses acute stress over his impending retirement, worrying about his financial stability and the wellbeing of his young grandson.

• Notable Quote:
  • Claire: "The glass is not only half empty, it needs another glass with some water." [09:18]

Social Security and Financial Stability

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the sustainability of Social Security. Michelle Singletary highlights widespread fears among older Americans about potential cuts or reductions in benefits.

• Notable Quote:
  • John Hill: "I have a one-year-old grandson... I feel like [Social Security] is going to collapse from the weight." [02:24]

Noah Shidelower, an economy reporter, shares insights from interviewing over 3,000 baby boomers. He notes that despite promises from the Trump administration to safeguard Social Security, increasing difficulties in accessing benefits reflect growing anxieties.

• Notable Quote:
  • Noah Shidelower: "Will I continue getting the same allocation that I'm getting right now?" [03:06]

Housing Market and Asset Prices

The episode delves into how fluctuations in the housing market directly impact retirees who rely heavily on home equity. A decline in asset prices could significantly reduce retirement funds, making downsizing challenging due to limited affordable housing options.

• Notable Quote:
  • John Hill: "If a lot of their equity goes down... it's a lot of money they were banking on." [04:32]

Inflation and Cost of Living

Inflation disproportionately affects essential expenses for retirees, such as groceries and healthcare. The Alice Essentials Index measures these impacts, revealing that essential costs are rising faster than other goods, exacerbating financial strain.

• Notable Quote:
  • John Hill: "I'm trying to find mostly I just want to know what I can do now to protect myself more." [02:40]

Expert Insights

Michelle Singletary’s Advice on Retirement Planning

Michelle Singletary emphasizes the importance of open conversations and proactive financial management. She advises prioritizing cash reserves and avoiding unnecessary debt to buffer against potential economic downturns.

• Notable Quote:
  • Singletary: "Right now, in this moment, cash is king." [13:14]

She also recommends resources like AARP and local aging offices for additional support and encourages building community connections to access available assistance.

Navigating Intergenerational Workplaces

The latter part of the episode transitions to the dynamics between baby boomers and younger generations in the workplace. Listener Marcia, approaching 70, shares her concerns about fitting into a predominantly younger workforce.

Noah interviews Professor Bobby Duffy from the Policy Institute at King's College London, who debunks prevalent generational stereotypes. Duffy asserts that while media exaggerates generational differences, historical data shows that intergenerational gaps have always existed and are not as pronounced as often portrayed.

• Notable Quote:
  • Bobby Duffy: "There is definitely a more general perception that boomers are generally greedy... They can't be bothered to check emails." [21:13]

Duffy highlights the benefits of intergenerational collaboration, noting that workplaces bringing together different age groups tend to be more innovative and resilient.

• Notable Quote:
  • Duffy: "Connections across the generations benefit both the older and the younger side of that equally." [25:47]

Practical Tips for Baby Boomers

For boomers re-entering the workforce or working alongside younger colleagues, Duffy offers practical advice:

1. Don’t Overworry About Stereotypes: Recognize that differences are often overstated.
2. Foster Connections: Building relationships can enhance mutual understanding and collaboration.
3. Leverage Experience: Utilize the wisdom and resilience that older workers bring to the table.

• Notable Quote:
  • Bobby Duffy: "People aren't as different as the stereotypes that you'll have seen." [25:00]

Listener Engagement and Community Support

Throughout the episode, hosts encourage listeners to engage in open dialogues about retirement and workplace dynamics. Claire shares her coping mechanisms, like managing stress through physical outlets, emphasizing the human emotional response to financial uncertainty.

• Notable Quote:
  • Claire: "I am punching a lot of pillows and doing a little cussing... trying to not let the fear dictate moves." [09:03]

Noah underscores the importance of community and support systems, suggesting that listeners connect with local resources and support groups to navigate their financial and emotional challenges.

Conclusion

"Retire? In this Economy!!" provides a comprehensive exploration of the financial and emotional stresses faced by older Americans considering retirement. By combining personal anecdotes, expert analysis, and practical advice, the episode offers valuable insights for both retirees and those supporting them. Additionally, the discussion on intergenerational workplace dynamics highlights the importance of collaboration and understanding across age groups, fostering a more inclusive and resilient workforce.

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Notable Quotes Summary:

• "The glass is not only half empty, it needs another glass with some water." – Claire [09:18]
• "I have a one-year-old grandson... I feel like [Social Security] is going to collapse from the weight." – John Hill [02:24]
• "Will I continue getting the same allocation that I'm getting right now?" – Noah Shidelower [03:06]
• "If a lot of their equity goes down... it's a lot of money they were banking on." – John Hill [04:32]
• "I'm trying to find mostly I just want to know what I can do now to protect myself more." – John Hill [02:40]
• "Right now, in this moment, cash is king." – Michelle Singletary [13:14]
• "There is definitely a more general perception that boomers are generally greedy... They can't be bothered to check emails." – Bobby Duffy [21:13]
• "Connections across the generations benefit both the older and the younger side of that equally." – Bobby Duffy [25:47]
• "People aren't as different as the stereotypes that you'll have seen." – Bobby Duffy [25:00]
• "I am punching a lot of pillows and doing a little cussing... trying to not let the fear dictate moves." – Claire [09:03]

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This episode serves as a crucial resource for understanding the precariousness of retirement planning in today's volatile economy and underscores the necessity for intergenerational solidarity and informed financial strategies.

Transcript

[John Hill]

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[Claire]

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[John Hill]

Ended their worst what will happen?

[Michelle Singletary]

I want a crystal ball to get through this.

[Noah Shidelower]

Hey you're listening to explain it to me. I'm J. Hill and I know I'm not supposed to, but after hearing all of this news about the economy, its ups, its downs, I did the thing they tell us not to do. I looked at my 401k and you guys, it was not cute. I started to worry even more so for my parents and other people their age. They're so much closer to needing that money than I am right now.

[Claire]

I am 58 years old and I'm currently thinking about retiring from my state job and wondering how do you know.

[John Hill]

When you've got enough money?

[Claire]

How do you know? Hi, this is Claire.

[John Hill]

I'm 66. I want to retire. I need to retire.

[Michelle Singletary]

Retire.

[John Hill]

I'm so stressed out. I have a one year old grandson.

[Michelle Singletary]

I should retire but I'm too terrified to because of everything that I see.

[Noah Shidelower]

Hi Claire.

[John Hill]

Hi, how are you?

[Noah Shidelower]

What are some of the big questions you have about retirement right now?

[John Hill]

Mostly it's am I going to be able to have Social Security?

[Michelle Singletary]

I feel like its legs are trying.

[John Hill]

To get cut out from under it and it's going to collapse from the weight. I feel like prices of everything is going to go up, the housing market is going to collapse. So I'm trying to find mostly I.

[Michelle Singletary]

Want a crystal ball to get through this.

[John Hill]

I just want to know what I can do now to protect myself more.

[Michelle Singletary]

Than what I've been thinking of.

[John Hill]

This is unfortunately something that we have heard a lot from a Lot of our readers.

[Noah Shidelower]

This is Noah Shidelower, economy reporter at Business Insider. He has a particular focus on older Americans. I called him up because he's heard from more than 3,000 baby boomers.

[John Hill]

It seems almost every conversation that I have with older Americans talk about that in some regard, where a lot of people are saying, I prepared well, but how well did I prepare? Or some people are saying, well, I have a ton of money right now and I'm really nervous. And we have noticed this across the board, across wealthy individuals, people who are lower income, people who are relying on a lot of these social services. The Trump administration is saying, we won't touch Social Security, we won't touch benefits. But we are seeing a lot of changes right now. And we have spoken with a lot of these older Americans who are saying, well, I used to be able to get through to Social Security in 15 minutes about a concern with my benefits. Now I'm on the phone for four or five hours. We are hearing from a lot of people who are concerned about the future of Social Security. Will I continue getting the same allocation that I'm getting right now? And then you have just in general, a lot of older Americans are working later, so they're living longer, but they're also having to work a lot longer. We are seeing some pushes right now among some representatives in Congress to potentially even push back the retirement age from 67 to 69 or 70. So there's definitely a lot of fear that a lot, that a lot of older Americans have that they will need to keep working or they'll have to work until their 70s to supplement Social Security.

[Noah Shidelower]

What are you looking for to better understand how this economy is impacting older Americans?

[John Hill]

So we're looking at a lot of factors right now, a lot of indicators. The main thing that we're currently looking at is asset prices. A lot of older Americans and a lot of retirees who have a lot of equity in their homes and their home is essentially their retirement. This is a lot of money. For some people, it's six, seven figures worth of retirement money. And if a lot of their equity goes down, if the housing market kind of collapses a little bit, that will get messed up for a lot of people. And it's hard for older Americans to downsize as well because there's, you know, not a lot of houses on the market right now that are selling for affordable rates with inflation. There's, there's many different ways of analyzing it. There's a measure that we use called the Alice Essentials Index, Asset limited income, constrained, employed, they look specifically at what's considered an essential. So grocery costs, for example, or housing, other sorts of medical expenses. This is what people need to survive. So this is a very interesting metric that we use to look at. Well, okay, how is inflation impacting the person who is 75 and still working and is very cautious about their spending? And it's indicative that inflation is rising a little bit more for some of those essentials than it is for some of the other goods that they might not be purchasing on a daily basis.

[Noah Shidelower]

For those that are panicking, are they panicking unnecessarily? Do they need to be this concerned?

[John Hill]

I don't think that there is really a type of unnecessary panic. There's a lot of change happening right now. There's a lot of uncertainty occurring right now and people have lost a lot of money. When the S and P is down 10 + percent this year, that's a lot of money that older Americans were relying on. It's a little scary for a lot of people. This is a lot of money that people were banking on and they don't know if they should be tapping into their 401s, they don't know if they should be relying more on other sorts of income, and then they won't touch their 401k. So it's definitely all very valid. But I also think some of them are a little bit misguided, especially because Social Security benefits have not been cut. They have not cut Medicaid yet, they have not touched Medicare yet. We just don't know what will happen. And we have been hearing from a lot of financial experts who this is their job. They speak with people who have been doing this for 30, 40 years and they say you should stay tight, hang on, and don't do anything too drastic that you may regret later.

[Noah Shidelower]

Okay, so don't do anything you would regret. Easier said than done though. So how can you prepare for the worst case scenario? I'm going to ask one of my favorite personal finance columnists after this break. I recently had a really fun conversation with my friend Rachel Hampton and the team at Normal Gossip where they told me a story about a prank between roommates gone horribly and hilariously wrong. The episode is out now, so you can head over to the Normal Gossip feed to hear all the juicy details. If you liked our conversation, make sure you check out the rest of the new season of Normal Gossip. Each episode features gossip from the real world told to a special guest. You can find Normal Gossip wherever you get your podcasts.

[John Hill]

The missing child is Lucia Blix, 9 years old.

[Claire]

Please let her come back home safely.

[John Hill]

Thursdays, the kidnappers plundit meticulously.

[Noah Shidelower]

If money is what it takes to.

[Claire]

Get her back, we're gonna pay it.

[Noah Shidelower]

The secrets they hide.

[Bobby Duffy]

You can't talk about this. You can't write about it.

[Michelle Singletary]

Are the clues.

[Claire]

The mother's hiding something. I know it.

[Noah Shidelower]

To find her, tell me where she is. The stolen girl. New episodes Thursdays stream on Hulu.

[Claire]

I am punching a lot of pillows and doing a little cussing.

[Noah Shidelower]

We're back. It's explain it to me. And I'm here now with Michelle Singletary, personal finance columnist with the Washington Post. Are you a baby boomer?

[Claire]

Yeah. I mean, like many people, I'm stressed to the max. You know, I've got a couple of years or so before I was thinking, okay, maybe I will retire. So I still have about three or four years before I have that serious conversation with myself. My husband, however, is retired and has been since 2023. So we're looking at his retirement account. We're looking at my retirement account.

[John Hill]

His.

[Claire]

He's not as stressed as I am. Cause he's always the glasses half full kind of person. I'm not only is the glass half empty, it's like it needs another glass with some water. So very concerned because you don't know when the end is near. And that's the issue with retirement planning. If we knew when we are going to pass away, if we knew how much health care we would need, if we knew what the housing market would do, we'd be all calm. But it's the unknown. And so I am punching a lot of pillows and crying and screaming and doing a little cussing, but trying to not let the fear dictate moves. And that's the key.

[Noah Shidelower]

Yeah. What do you, what do you fear that could happen? What's the, like, worst case scenario?

[Claire]

Historically, the markets do return. Eventually people come back company. I mean, the underlying part of America, the economy is still strong. So it's. The fear is how long will it take? Uh, and if you have to draw down on your retirement funds, that is what is disconcerting because it's. The balance is lower. And so you are pulling it out at a time where you're definitely going to lock in recent losses. Um, then that means that'll be less left to grow. Even when the market returns, when you are retired and drawing on that, that is the fear that you'll have less and you'll have less at a time when you need more like for healthcare.

[Noah Shidelower]

Okay. So I was particularly interested in this episode because my parents are boomers and, you know, I tend to give that generation a lot of grief, but it does come from a place of love. You know, what advice do you have for listeners who are like me, where you want to be able to help the older people in your life, whether that's with advice or anything else.

[Claire]

Well, I. It's understandable that you're concerned about your parents and also lots of parents, you know, you don't necessarily want to reveal everything, especially if you feeling bad that you don't have enough money. But I think this is a good opportunity to have open conversations.

[Noah Shidelower]

How do you recommend that listeners start that conversation with the retirement age folks in their lives?

[Claire]

Just, you know, like the next time you say, hey, you know, I'd love to talk to you about this because I'm a little worried, you know, I'm saving for retirement and this is what's concerning me. And then you say, how about you? What you don't want to do is like, do you have any money? What's going on? You don't want to come at them in a more adversarial way, or as I said, you don't want to come out like you're now the parent. You, you should see each other as companions and account accountability partners and come at them saying, you know, I want to help you if you're concerned because I'm concerned, and make it more like you're going to be working at this together because if you find it that they are or they were not ready, that you have to be sure that you are have secured your finances so that if you have to step up to help, there are some resources there to help them.

[Noah Shidelower]

What should people prioritize when they look at their finances?

[Claire]

I think right now, in this moment, cash is king. I would be stockpiling cash in a high yield savings account in case you lose your job, in case the economy really does go into a recession. If it gets worse than it is now. I don't want to panic people, although it's perfectly fine if you're scared, because that's just human nature. But I will say the prudent thing right now is to say, don't go into any kind of debt or use a lot of cash that you might need if you lose your job. Now, my husband and I are not in that situation, but we did pull back on a major home improvement project that we were going to do just to see how things shake out that's the kind of conversation you should be having with yourself. But if you're not on a budget right now, you need to get on a budget yesterday.

[Noah Shidelower]

What advice do you have for people who are at retirement age but haven't been able to save as much? Is there anything they can do to play catch up?

[Claire]

Yeah, the first thing I would say is don't beat yourself up. You know you are where you are and accept that, but do something about it. So if you are getting close to retirement, are you about that or a time where you think, then you've got to make some hard decisions. Are you ready to retire? You might say, I wanted to retire at 62, I'm gonna retire no matter what. Well, you can't retire at 62. You don't have enough. Many people work into their late 60s and 70s and 80s, so if that's you, that might be what you have to do. And, or you look at your housing situation because aside from some of your other bills, housing is the biggest part of your budget. So you might have to say, you know what, those young adults that was asking me about my money, maybe I have to move in with them or they move in with me. So you got to look at the big ticket items and then you make decisions by that. So let's say you're near retirement but you can't work anymore, you're not healthy. Then you look at collecting Social Security a little earlier.

[Noah Shidelower]

Are there resources available for people who don't have as much saved?

[Claire]

So two places I really recommend people to go, first of all is aarp. They have a whole system section on their website for retiring, retiring in place, long term care information, how to do your estate planning. And then also the, your local aging office is, has a tremendous amount of resources for those who may not have enough, who have housing insecurity or food insecurity. And then hopefully you're connected to some community group. Whether it's through your, your, your faith or some other group. Get connected in your community because there are some resources that can help you know if you're not connected.

[Noah Shidelower]

Financial advice can admittedly be a little frustrating because I think we hear the same thing over and over again. You know, like sit tight, stay the course, don't make any rash decisions. What do you say to people who feel antsy right now who want a different answer than what they usually hear?

[Claire]

So this happens a lot. People want, they ask you a question and they really have already made up their mind. They want you to co sign on a bad situation. Listen, good advice is good advice no matter what. And people want a microwave safe answer to a problem that need to be baked in the oven. And so you can't microwave your way away from situations like we're going right now. You just can't. We know by history, that's how we look at things. You know, the market eventually returns historically. Could it change in the future? Sure it can. But we have decades and decades of data that show that when we go into an economic downturn, we come out. It's in everybody's interest that that happens. And you have to feel what you need to feel. I will not tell you not to panic when the market goes down. I will not tell you that because it is human to be mad and angry and upset and scared. Be all of those. Just don't make decisions in that moment.

[Noah Shidelower]

So depending on a lot of different factors, some of us may be in the workforce longer than we anticipated or we may have to go back on the job market after we've left it. How can generations work together in the workplace? Stay tuned.

[John Hill]

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[Michelle Singletary]

Boomers in the workplace.

[Bobby Duffy]

Shorthand labels leaked into the workplace.

[Noah Shidelower]

Okay, so we heard from a lot of you about Your concerns around 401ks, but we also got a call from Marsha in Oklahoma who had another kind of concern about her generation.

[Michelle Singletary]

So I am about to turn 70 and was requested to apply for and hired for a job of some significance, I think. And prior to this I've always been one who thought by the age of 70 you were irrelevant in the workplace. So what I'm interested in hearing is how does the workforce view boomers in the workplace? And what are some of the annoyances that somebody my age or the boomer generation should be sensitive to in the workplace? Thanks very much. This is Marcia.

[Noah Shidelower]

Our producer Gabrielle called Marcia back to hear more about her new job working for the city of Tulsa.

[John Hill]

Did you start the job?

[Michelle Singletary]

I did, yeah. I mean, I'm just days away from 70 years old, so I just still felt like I had something to give and, and I still do today. It's everything. The way it works is so interesting to me.

[John Hill]

What were you worried about going into this job with regards to working with people who were younger?

[Michelle Singletary]

I think I was worried about walking in and then thinking what, you know, could this old person possibly have to contribute? You know what I mean?

[John Hill]

Because, oh, I'm like, don't talk about Marcia that way.

[Michelle Singletary]

I just wondered if today's workforce, which certainly in this administration where I'm working is skews younger, which is great. What feelings they harbor about having to carry older workers, you know, on their shoulders.

[Bobby Duffy]

That's a great question and it shows great self awareness and humility. My initial reaction is don't be too worried.

[Noah Shidelower]

We posed Marcia's question to Professor Bobby Duffy. He lives across the pond where he studies generational differences at the Policy Institute at King's College London.

[Bobby Duffy]

There is definitely a more general perception that boomers are generally greedy. The kind of theme is a sense of selfishness.

[Noah Shidelower]

And for the younger generations, like Gen.

[Bobby Duffy]

Z, the most entitled generation, the most difficult generation in the workplace, that they, they can't be bothered to check emails, having breakdowns about the difficulty of a 9 to 5 job. You can go all the way back to the Industrial revolution where things were changing fast. And there was a sense that younger generations had a better understanding of the technology that was coming through. Older generations were becoming a bit obsolete. But I think it's worse today in many ways because we also do have a much more stereotypical view through our information, our social media and media environment of what are the very exaggerated view of the differences between the generations or the characters of individual generations.

[Noah Shidelower]

You studied how much these stereotypes hold up in reality? What data were you collecting and where from?

[Bobby Duffy]

What I do is I look at very long term surveys going back to 50s and 60s, so really big studies like the General Social Survey in the us massive annual study that gives you like measures of all different aspects of attitudes and behaviors. And the key thing is to do it over a long enough term so you can see that this is something to do with this particular generation being different.

[Noah Shidelower]

Did you find that these generational stereotypes hold up to reality?

[Bobby Duffy]

No, very often they don't at all. The gap between young and old today is very similar to the gap between young and old in the past. So baby boomers were also much more comfortable with different changing social norms when they were young compared to their parents and grandparents. In fact, when I look across decades of this data, there is no particularly big divide between young and old today compared to the past. Although it feels like that, partly because our media or social media really emphasize and exaggerate the differences between the generations.

[Noah Shidelower]

Who does that myth making serve?

[Bobby Duffy]

It kind of refers back to firstly, the change in our information environment, and particularly in media and social media.

[John Hill]

Boomers really are the most out of touch and entitled generation there is. And it's not even close. Sick day. Okay, you don't sound terrible. Do you mind just turning on your camera so I can see that you're actually sick?

[Bobby Duffy]

I think that context of we've created this information environment where these are shorthand labels for stereotypes does get. Does imbue itself into our general understanding of these generations and that leaks into the workplace.

[John Hill]

Gen Z at work, of course, I'm closing my laptop at 5pm on the dot.

[Claire]

I'm a Gen Z in corporate. What do you mean? What is a mental health day?

[Noah Shidelower]

Figure it out because I'm taking one a month. Sorry, I just worked eight hours and you expect me to go make dinner right now.

[Bobby Duffy]

But then I think there's an important second element to this is that people can make money out of these divides. And you can see, you know, on LinkedIn there are people who call themselves millennial consultants. This vast swathe of the population that they have particular insight in. So it's kind of creating a problem to solve the problem and charge you for it.

[Noah Shidelower]

Are there benefits you found to intergenerational workplaces?

[Bobby Duffy]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think this is a growing area of study and interest because there are some great examples of individual organizations setting in place schemes that deliberately bring different generations together around a particular problem or strategy, or open up competitions across generations. And you can see that those organizations who start to do those types of things end up being more innovative, coming up with more ideas. They're more resilient and adaptable. And I think the key to that is connecting people, getting over those stereotypes. And the only way to get over those stereotypes and think of each other as assets to the business is to have more contact.

[Noah Shidelower]

Do you have any practical tips for baby boomers who are navigating intergenerational workplaces, and especially for those who maybe were, like, stopped working, now they're back, or, you know, it's like, okay, I'm gonna have to work a little longer. I'm gonna be with people who are younger than me. How should they navigate that?

[Bobby Duffy]

Yeah, I think the first bit of the tips on this, I think, is to not be overly worried about the difference, that people aren't as different as the stereotypes that you'll have seen then. The second point is that we are living much more separately across the generations than we have at any point in human history. We've kind of sortied young people into cities, older people outside. We've got digital lives where different generations are doing very different things on different platforms to different intensities. So the workplace is one of the few places where we're pushed together. Connections across the generations benefit both the older and the younger side of that equally.

[Michelle Singletary]

That makes me feel much better, actually.

[John Hill]

Oh, really?

[Claire]

Yeah.

[Noah Shidelower]

We shared what we learned from Professor Bobby with Marcia.

[Michelle Singletary]

So, like, while you were talking, you said the word resilience. I immediately jumped on that word because in, like, in group think sort of discussions, it sort of feels like the millennials have these. What they believe are these fresh, new, great ideas that boomers have probably sort of seen in some fashion. And so if the boomer speaks up against them, that it's like we're afraid to try new things. But the truth is, if you have the right collaboration, what we've learned from maybe doing it and not doing it right the first time, taking their idea and our maybe known pitfalls is where the resilience of something good, you know, can. Can come out of it.

[John Hill]

How is it going so far? Like, how is working with your younger colleagues?

[Michelle Singletary]

It's great. I don't want to be part of. If a group of them goes for a happy hour, I don't want to be and don't feel like I need to be part of that because they kind of gather at my desk in the mornings to kind of set the day off, and I get to hear about the evening before anyway. So I like that because I feel like they're wanting to share it with me without me having to have been there. So so far, really, it's good, and I'm more relaxed than I thought I was, that I do want to remain self aware. I don't want to fall into a trap and be a stumbling block. So far, I don't regret it. One bit.

[John Hill]

Well, thank you so much for calling in, and good luck with your new job.

[Michelle Singletary]

Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

[Noah Shidelower]

Thanks to everyone who called in to share your experiences for this episode. Coming up, we're doing an episode about personal style. Why it's so hard to figure out what to wear and what not to wear and where to even start when it comes to developing your style, are you trying to find it, or have you already figured it out? If you did, how'd you do it? Give us a call and leave us a message. Our number is 1-800-618-8545. This episode was produced by Gabrielle Burbe and Carla Javier, who also runs our show. It was edited by our executive producer, Miranda Kennedy. Melissa Hirsch checked the facts, Andrea, Kristin's daughter, and Patrick Boyd, mixed and engineered. And I'm Johnful in Hill. Talk to you soon. Bye.