Today, Explained – Episode: Robert Fluoride Kennedy Jr.

Release Date: November 21, 2024

Hosts: Sean Rameswaram and Noel King

In this episode of "Today, Explained," Vox delves deep into the controversial figure of Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (RFK Jr.) as a potential nominee for the United States Secretary of Health and Human Services. Hosts Noel King and guest reporters Karen Landman and Michael Schulson explore RFK Jr.'s history, his association with anti-vaccination movements, and the broader implications of his prospective role on public health policies.

Introduction to RFK Jr. and the Health Department Role

Noel King begins by introducing Karen Landman, Vox’s senior health and medicine reporter, who is also a physician and epidemiologist.

Karen Landman explains the role of the Health and Human Services Secretary:

“This job is overseeing a bunch of federal agencies that have a lot to do with health, including but not limited to the CDC, the Food and Drug Administration, the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid, the Indian Health Service, lots and lots of important agencies that together really chart a course for the health of our nation.”
[02:44]

RFK Jr.'s Unorthodox Views on Public Health

Noel King questions Karen about why RFK Jr. is considered an "unorthodox" pick for the position.

Karen Landman responds:

“He has a lot of beliefs about health-related issues that are based in conspiracy theory lore.”
[03:14]

She elaborates on RFK Jr.'s fundamental distrust of the scientific process and public health institutions, highlighting his tendency to confuse causation with mere association.

Vaccine Skepticism and Anti-Vaccination Advocacy

Noel King probes into RFK Jr.'s stance on vaccines.

Karen Landman outlines RFK Jr.'s involvement with vaccine skepticism:

“His involvement with it starts in the 2000s. He had been prior to that an environmental lawyer. He'd done a lot of work with cleaning up polluted water systems.”
[04:32]

She explains how RFK Jr. became the face of the Children’s Health Defense, a prominent anti-vaccination advocacy group, by promoting unproven links between vaccines and autism.

“He seeded doubt in a million different ways on the utility and the life-saving nature of vaccines, which have saved hundreds of millions of lives worldwide.”
[06:05]

Other Controversial Positions

Noel King asks about RFK Jr.'s other non-consensus beliefs.

Karen Landman lists:

• Fluoride: Claims against water fluoridation.
• Chemicals in Water: Linking them to sexual dysphoria in children.
• Antidepressants: Associating their use with mass shootings.

“He has a lot of non-scientific beliefs that he has espoused publicly and just cast doubt on how much we know about the causes of a whole bunch of health conditions.”
[07:34]

Overlap with Scientific Consensus and Broader Distrust

Noel King suggests RFK Jr. has areas of agreement with scientific consensus.

Karen Landman acknowledges:

“He fundamentally distrusts big institutions and I think a lot of Americans across the political spectrum also distrust big institutions.”
[09:17]

While RFK Jr. and many Americans share distrust in large institutions influenced by corporate lobbies, their approaches to addressing public health issues often clash with mainstream experts.

Potential Impact as Health Secretary

Noel King inquires about RFK Jr.'s likely priorities if confirmed.

Karen Landman discusses how RFK Jr. could:

• Weaken Vaccine Recommendations: Undermine CDC guidelines.
• Influence Funding: Target programs like Vaccines for Children.
• Amplify Public Distrust: Heighten skepticism towards vaccines and public health institutions.

“There's a lot of new distrust that he could bring to the system and that he could affirm amid people who already distrust these big institutions.”
[10:24]

Regarding fluoride, Karen explains that while RFK Jr. cannot directly remove it from water supplies, his influence could lead communities to lobby for its removal, impacting dental health.

Broader Implications for American Views on Science

Noel King reflects on RFK Jr.'s rise as indicative of a larger trend in American skepticism toward science and public health.

Karen Landman draws parallels between RFK Jr. and other populist figures:

“He uses anti-intellectual language similar to Trump... he seems like a really sympathetic character to a lot of Americans for a lot of those reasons.”
[12:31]

Deep Dive: Fluoride in Water

The episode shifts focus to the longstanding debate over fluoridation in drinking water.

Michael Schulson of Undark Magazine provides historical context:

“Fluoridation began in the US in the 1940s to combat tooth decay. Initial studies showed significant reductions in tooth decay among children.”
[17:54]

He recounts the Stevens Point, Wisconsin incident in the 1940s, where local citizens opposed fluoridation, fearing toxicity and government overreach. This incident laid the groundwork for ongoing conspiracy theories.

“Fluoride has over the years inspired a tremendous amount of fear and concern.”
[21:33]

Scientific Consensus and Ongoing Research

Michael Schulson discusses the current state of scientific research on fluoride:

• High Doses: Universally recognized as toxic.
• Low Doses: Potential neurodevelopmental effects are debated, with some studies suggesting a link to lowered IQ in children, though often criticized for methodological flaws.

“There is a small body of evidence that suggests that there may be some link between fluoride and neurodevelopmental effects... it's not a fringe position within the worlds of environmental epidemiology or toxicology.”
[24:15]

Michael Schulson emphasizes the challenge of communicating scientific uncertainty without fueling conspiracy theories.

“How do you communicate uncertainty?... it's something we all do well to wrestle with.”
[26:06]

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

The episode concludes by highlighting the delicate balance between effective public health policies and maintaining public trust. RFK Jr.'s controversial positions on vaccines and fluoride serve as case studies for the broader issues of distrust in scientific institutions and the challenges of public health communication.

Notable Quotes:

1. Karen Landman [03:14]:

   “He has a lot of beliefs about health-related issues that are based in conspiracy theory lore.”

2. Karen Landman [05:56]:

   “He became the face of the Children’s Health Defense, arguably one of the most influential groups in anti-vaccination advocacy worldwide.”

3. Karen Landman [07:34]:

   “He has a lot of non-scientific beliefs that he has espoused publicly and just cast doubt on how much we know about the causes of a whole bunch of health conditions.”

4. Karen Landman [10:24]:

   “There's a lot of new distrust that he could bring to the system and that he could affirm amid people who already distrust these big institutions.”

5. Karen Landman [12:31]:

   “He seems like a really sympathetic character to a lot of Americans for a lot of those reasons.”

6. Michael Schulson [21:33]:

   “Fluoride has over the years inspired a tremendous amount of fear and concern.”

7. Michael Schulson [24:15]:

   “It's not a fringe position within the worlds of environmental epidemiology or toxicology.”

8. Michael Schulson [26:06]:

   “How do you communicate uncertainty?... it's something we all do well to wrestle with.”

Key Takeaways:

• RFK Jr.'s Influence: His potential role as Health Secretary could significantly impact public health policies, especially concerning vaccines and water fluoridation.

• Public Trust: RFK Jr.'s positions exacerbate existing distrust in scientific institutions, challenging efforts to maintain effective public health strategies.

• Scientific Debate: Ongoing research into fluoride's effects highlights the complexities of balancing public health benefits with addressing emerging concerns.

This episode underscores the intricate relationship between science, public perception, and politics, illustrating how influential figures like RFK Jr. can shape national health narratives.