Saudi Arabia is no joke

Summary

Today, Explained – "Saudi Arabia is no joke" (October 9, 2025) — Episode Summary

Overview

This episode of Today, Explained dives into the controversy surrounding American comedians performing at the inaugural Riyadh Comedy Festival in Saudi Arabia, a government-funded event amid the kingdom’s well-documented human rights abuses. Hosts Noel King and guests, including Abdullah Aloda (Senior Director at the Middle East Democracy Center, Washington, D.C.) and comedy journalist Seth Simons, discuss the implications of international entertainers accepting Saudi money, the government’s attempts at “whitewashing” its image through arts and sports, and the backlash within the comedy community.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Lack of Free Speech and Political Repression in Saudi Arabia

• Draconian Laws Used to Silence Dissent
  • Criticizing Saudi foreign policy, the king, or the Crown Prince is treated as terrorism.
  • The anti-cybercrime law criminalizes vaguely defined activities such as “questioning the tranquility of society.”
    • "Questioning the wisdom of the king or the Crown Prince is an act of terrorism." — Abdullah Aloda [02:28]
• Consequences for Political Speech
  • Abdullah's father, a reform-minded scholar, has been imprisoned since 2017 for a tweet calling for Saudi-Qatar reconciliation; he faces the death penalty on charges including, "corrupting earth by trying to transform the monarchy into a democratic system.”
    • “They are seeking the death penalty against him on 37 charges, including... calling to free arbitrary detainees and supporting democratic revolution during the Arab Spring in 2011.” — Abdullah Aloda [03:27]

2. The Saudi Comedy Festival: Money, Optics, and Whitewashing

• Huge Sums Offered to Top-Tier Talent
  • Star comedians (e.g. Dave Chappelle, Aziz Ansari, Bill Burr) reportedly received up to $375,000 or more for a single performance—several times the typical U.S. rate.
    • "I was speaking to people … usually given like 50 to 70,000 for a night, and in Saudi Arabia… like 200 to 300 to 500,000 for one night." — Abdullah Aloda [05:10]
• Saudi Public Investment Fund (PIF) Role
  • PIF, headed by the Crown Prince, directly funds these cultural events; PIF’s subsidiary was implicated in the transport of the Khashoggi hit squad.
    • "This public investment fund has another subsidy that is called prime aviation. Prime aviation was used during the Khashoggi murder." — Abdullah Aloda [06:44]
• Connection to Broader Sportswashing Strategy
  • Similar investments in sports: buying major franchises (e.g., Newcastle United), sponsoring the PGA/LIV Golf merger, securing events like UFC matches, Esports Olympics, and bidding for the FIFA World Cup (awarded for 2034).
    • "All of this is part of this scheme of whitewashing machine that they have been running all along." — Abdullah Aloda [08:50]

3. Debate: Is There an Upside to Western Participation?

• Can Cultural Exchange Influence Reform?
  • Some comedians—citing audience enthusiasm and exposure to new ideas—frame their participation as potentially opening Saudi society.
    • “A comedy festival felt like something that’s pushing things to be more open. There’s some good in it, maybe some bad in it…” — Aziz Ansari (via Seth Simons) [21:02]
• Limits of this Argument
  • Abdullah Aloda points out the limits, citing forced contracts forbidding criticism and the regime’s “transnational repression”:
    • "If you go to this place... just few miles from where my father is detained… and you preach about free speech, I think this is hypocritical to say the least." — Abdullah Aloda [10:41]
    • “How are you going to talk about free speech while you just signed this kind of contract?” — Abdullah Aloda [11:54]

4. Comedy Community Backlash and Ethics

• Pushback from Other Comedians and Critics
  • Notably, peers like Marc Maron, Dave Cross, and Atsuko Okatsuka criticized participants, viewing the gigs as betrayal of comedy’s alleged stance on free speech.
    • "The same guy that’s going to pay them is the same guy that paid that guy to bonesaw Jamal Khashoggi and put him in a suitcase. But don’t let that stop the yucks." — Marc Maron (quoted by Seth Simons) [18:57]
• Hypocrisy in Accepting Saudi Money While Preaching Free Speech
  • Discussion of how many of today’s comedians see themselves as free speech crusaders—yet they performed in a country where jokes can be criminalized and even lead to death.
    • “They treat this as assault on their civil liberties... so to go perform and take money from a regime that... locks people up and even executes people for what they say seemed a little hypocritical.” — Seth Simons [18:10]
    • “It’s embarrassing to go on stage and tell jokes that if some of the audience tweeted… could lead to them being executed.” — Seth Simons [19:10]
• Comedians Justify Participation
  • Arguments include cultural exchange, claims of not needing to censor themselves (except for specific forbidden topics), and references to feeling celebrated as celebrities.
    • “They said they didn’t have to censor themselves, even though they sort of agreed to a contract that forbade criticizing the Saudi government and religion.” — Seth Simons [21:14]
    • “Whitney Cummings said that no one has treated her as well in the U.S. as the Saudis treated her.” — Seth Simons [22:02]
  • Notable moment: Chris DiStefano’s “dirty jokes” and anecdotes about the audience’s hunger for boundary-pushing comedy.
• High Compensation as Motivation
  • Tim Dillon reportedly received $375,000 for one show (and cited others making $1.6 million).
    • “I believe in my own financial well being.” — Tim Dillon (as paraphrased by Simons) [20:08]

5. Historical Context of Comedy and Free Speech

• Referencing Lenny Bruce and George Carlin
  • Comparison with older comedians who actually suffered state persecution for their acts. Modern performers' "free speech" rhetoric is contrasted with the low real risk they face in the U.S.
    • "Both those guys... took actual heat. They were, you know, targeted by the state in a way that none of these comedians have been." — Seth Simons [23:37]
• Question: Will the Scandal Last?
  • Open debate if this controversy will have lasting repercussions; fan backlash across social media was more intense than comedians may have anticipated.
    • "It is very notable that this caused the uproar it did. And even fans... are bringing it up pretty constantly." — Seth Simons [25:17]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Law in Saudi Arabia:

  • “If we were having this conversation in Saudi Arabia, you would get in trouble.” — Noel King [03:07]
  • “I would be tried in the terrorism court and would be convicted for so many years—if not executed.” — Abdullah Aloda [03:12]

• On Blood Money:

  • “I think if we use Bill Burr’s own words, I would say the money that Bill Burr is taking…is basically blood money.” — Abdullah Aloda [10:08]

• On Free Speech Rhetoric vs. Actions:

  • "They treat this as assault on their civil liberties…to go and perform and take money from a regime that is notoriously repressive…seemed a little hypocritical." — Seth Simons [18:10]
  • “It’s embarrassing to go on stage and tell jokes that if some of the audience members tweeted…could lead to them being executed.” — Seth Simons [19:10]

• On Whitewashing and Image:

  • “It’s the optics of it. That’s what they all care about at the end.” — Abdullah Aloda [07:21]
  • “All of this is part of this scheme of whitewashing machine that they have been running all along.” — Abdullah Aloda [08:50]

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Key Timestamps

• [02:28] — Abdullah Aloda explains Saudi laws equating criticism with terrorism.
• [03:27] — Abdullah recounts his father’s arrest and charges.
• [04:37] - [05:10] — On the festival, government sponsorship, and outsized payments to comedians.
• [06:44] — Public Investment Fund, Khashoggi killing connection.
• [08:50] — The concept of sportswashing.
• [10:08] — Discussion of “blood money” and performer hypocrisy.
• [10:41] - [11:54] — On the hypocrisy of free speech claims in Saudi.
• [21:02] — Some comedians’ defense: cultural exchange and openness.
• [23:37] — Comparison to Carlin and Lenny Bruce; modern consequences.
• [25:17] — The extent of comedic community and fan backlash.

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Tone & Conclusion

The episode maintains a critical, at times darkly humorous tone, unflinchingly highlighting the ethical complexity and hypocrisy of internationally renowned comedians participating in Saudi state-sponsored events. Both the breadth of government-sponsored image-making (sports, comedy, entertainment) and the self-contradictions of comics who champion free speech while tacitly endorsing repression “for a check” are scrutinized through real-world anecdotes, industry context, and personal testimony.

Abdullah Aloda’s personal account—his father imprisoned for a tweet, family members used as leverage—serves as a powerful reminder of the stakes. The recurring motif: as long as celebrities accept the money and keep to the regime's rules, the Saudi "whitewashing machine" keeps running.

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For Listeners Who Haven't Tuned In

This episode offers an in-depth, nuanced exploration of the intersection between Western pop culture, authoritarian image-management, and the real-world consequences for free expression. The conversation pulls no punches, letting both critics and defenders of the comedians’ choices speak in their own words. If you want to understand the global entanglement of entertainment, money, and power, this is essential listening.

Transcript

[Noel King]

It's Today Explained. Hey, what's Jimmy Kimmel been up to since he got back on the air?

[Aziz Ansari]

Please welcome Aziz Ansari. Look at you in a suit.

[Seth Simons]

Wow.

[Noel King]

Oh, he got Aziz Ansari.

[Abdullah Aloda]

I haven't been here since all this ice stuff started happening. I'm all nervous. I got friends, they're like, we're hiding.

[Noel King]

Our nanny in the basement. We might have to raise our kids.

[Seth Simons]

We don't know what we're gonna do. So fun.

[Aziz Ansari]

I want to ask you about this comedy festival over in Saudi Arabia that you were part of, because people, a lot of comedians especially, are very upset o brutal regime. They've done a lot of horrible, horrible things. And so people are questioning why you would go over there and take their money to perform in front of these people. And I'm just curious because you were there, you made this decision. I'm curious as to why you decided to do that.

[Noel King]

Coming up, why they decided to do that.

[Abdullah Aloda]

Support for the show today comes from.

[Anthropic Representative]

Anthropic, the team behind Claude. Today's news moves fast, but the most important stories deserve deeper thinking. Whether you're trying to understand the implications of a policy change or connecting dots across breaking stories, Claude, your new AI collaborator, can help you go beyond the headlines. Claude doesn't just summarize the news. It helps you explore the context, analyze the patterns, and think through what it all means together. Try Claude for free at Claude AI.

[Noel King]

Todayexplained support for Today Explained comes from the Economist. If you're like me, you're a little bit obsessed with the Economist. And the Economist has a new feature for you. Insider is a brand new video offering from the Economist that lets you feel like a fly on the wall of their editorial meetings. With Insider, you get direct access to the internal debates that shape how the Economist makes sense of of an increasingly complex and turbulent world. Hear trusted voices debate the biggest global issues with Insider. Free at launch for all subscribers to the Economist. Huh? Learn [e-mail] insider.

[Podcast Narrator/Announcer]

Explained.

[Noel King]

I'm Noel King. Abdullah Aloda is Senior Director for countering Authoritarianism at the Middle East Democracy center in Washington, dc. Abdullah is Saudi and he knows a thing or two about freedom in the kingdom. Namely, that freedom ain't free thanks to a draconian counterterrorism law.

[Abdullah Aloda]

Like criticizing the foreign policy, it's considered an act of terrorism. Criticizing the king or the Crown Prince. Of course, there's actually an article within their law that says questioning the wisdom of the king or the Crown Prince is an act of terrorism. We have also another Law that's called anti cybercrime law, that criminalizes anything that they describe as threatening the public value or the questioning, the tranquility of society. Things that are, like, really broad and weird. They can encompass basically anything, including my conversation with you right here.

[Noel King]

Oh, if we were having this conversation in Saudi Arabia, you would get in trouble.

[Abdullah Aloda]

I would be tried in the terrorism court and would be convicted for so many years if not executed.

[Noel King]

Okay, I understand your dad is in prison in Saudi Arabia. Is he in prison for this kind of thing?

[Abdullah Aloda]

Yeah, so my father was detained in September of 2017. He just marked eight years. He's still in solitary confinement, which, by the way, is considered a form of torture under international law. The thing that triggered all of this, believe it or not, a tweet in which he called for reconciliation between Saudi Arabia and Qatar. At that time, during the rift between the two countries, he said, may God harmonize between the hearts of the two leaders for the best of the people. They locked him up for so many years now, and they are seeking the death penalty against him on 37 charges, including corrupting earth by trying to transform the monarchy into a democratic system. Calling to free arbitrary detainees and supporting democratic revolution during the Arab Spring in 2011.

[Noel King]

Okay, so amid all of this, a bunch of big name American comedians have been getting a lot of criticism for participating in a comedy festival in Riyadh. Tell me about this festival and why it's such a big deal there.

[Abdullah Aloda]

This is an event that is sponsored completely by the Saudi government, Paid completely by the Saudi government. That's why you see, for example, the double amount given to all these comedians.

[Aziz Ansari]

How big was the check? 375,000 for one show.

[Podcast Narrator/Announcer]

Nice.

[Aziz Ansari]

That's not bad. That's pretty good. I'll watch a be handing for that. Yeah, I didn't want to do it either. I was contemplating. I was like, maybe not. And then Jasmine was like, you're gonna take that fucking money. I just, you know, I get the routing and then I see the number.

[Seth Simons]

And I go, I'll go, okay, okay.

[Abdullah Aloda]

Yeah. I was speaking to people in the showbiz here in the States who said in such events they would usually be given like 50 to 60 or 70,000 for a night. And in Saudi Arabia, they are given like 200 to 300 to 5, sometimes 100,000 for one night, which is basically sometimes triple the amount that they got elsewhere. The Saudi government is doing this. They are sponsoring this. They have the deep pocket. It's not a private company. It's not like any show that you see in the world or watch or follow where like a private company or business or a businessman or like a, you know, basically a private entity doing this? No, this is an entity that is part of the Saudi government. It's called public investment fund. It's a sovereign wealth fund owned completely by the Saudi government. All of this is managed and controlled completely and directly by no other than the Saudi Crown Prince himself. And that's why this is so controversial. Because it's the same person who commits all the crime and who does all the atrocities that we talk about. I'll give you a quick example. So this event is paid by the public investment fund.

[Noel King]

The helm of the buyout is Saudi Arabia's public investment fund.

[Anthropic Representative]

PIF is Saudi Arabia's sovereign wealth fund. It's one of the largest in the world with assets expected to exceed $1 trillion by 2025.

[Abdullah Aloda]

This public investment fund has another subsidy that is called prime aviation. Prime aviation was used during the Khashoggi murder.

[Aziz Ansari]

Now to the mysterious disappearance prompted an outcry around the world.

[Abdullah Aloda]

This is the last time Saudi journalist and Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi was seen alive to commit the crime of flying all these people that the team that actually killed and dismember our friend Jamal Khashoggi at the Saudi consulate in Istanbul in 2018. So you get like the same exact entity PE doing all this bad business, doing all of these like dirty work. But at the same time, instead of fixing the things on the ground, stopping from killing people, protecting human rights, respecting dignity and freedom of speech, they do an easier way for them, which is to continue whatever they have been doing to do all the violations that they have been doing, but at the same time pay for people to make them look good. It's the optics of it. That's what they all care about at the end.

[Noel King]

Are they just doing this with comedy festivals or are they doing it in other ways too?

[Abdullah Aloda]

No, actually they're doing this with sports.

[Noel King]

The PGA and Saudi backed LIV Golf have officially announced a merger. The deal is a major victory for Saudi Arabia.

[Abdullah Aloda]

Through the kingdom's sovereign wealth fund.

[Podcast Narrator/Announcer]

They bought an English Premier league soccer team, Newcastle United.

[Abdullah Aloda]

They buy in major sports teams. They're hosting major sports events.

[Aziz Ansari]

The UFC returns to the kingdom with two middleweight blockbusters. Live from Saudi Arabia.

[Noel King]

The International Olympic Committee is partnering with the Riyadh based Esports World cup foundation to host the first ever Esports Olympics in Saudi Arabia in 2027.

[Abdullah Aloda]

They were just awarded the 2034 World Cup. The host of the FIFA World Cup.

[Aziz Ansari]

2034 will be.

[Abdullah Aloda]

Saudi Arabia. And all of this is part of this scheme of whitewashing machine that they have been running all along.

[Noel King]

I hear the criticism. I really do. I also wonder whether there might be some upside here, whether any of these events bringing all of these outsiders, including many Westerners, into Saudi Arabia, might change things in Saudi Arabia. Like, could there be any positive outcome from all of this?

[Abdullah Aloda]

That's a good point. Let me bring in Bill Barr here.

[Bill Burr]

I'm passionate about my opinions and I want you to hear all of them.

[Seth Simons]

Before you get to talk again.

[Abdullah Aloda]

So basically, Bill Burr en Riyadh said that he went to basically have fun and meet with people. And he said the people were happy.

[Bill Burr]

And he just goes, hey, Bill Burr, I love you. Kick ass, man. And I could just feel like these fucking people. The people, okay, they want a fucking show.

[Abdullah Aloda]

And if we go back to Bill Burr, a few years ago, we remember when he criticized Beyonce.

[Bill Burr]

Beyonce and Mariah Carey actually did private New Year's gigs for a million bucks for Gaddafi's kids. You're gonna take a gig where you're gonna go dance like a goddamn clown for a mass murderer's kids. Then you take that fucking blood money.

[Abdullah Aloda]

So I think if we use Bill Burr's own words, I would say the money that Bill Burr is taking from the 70 government that tortures us and kills the people that we like and love and follow is basically blood money.

[Noel King]

All right, so Bill Burr seems a bit like a hypocrite here, if we're being honest. Another one who's gotten a lot of attention, Dave Chappelle. So reportedly during his set, he joked about being able to say things in Riyadh that he can't even say in the US when you saw that reported, what did you think?

[Abdullah Aloda]

I was so furious. My family are banned from traveling not because they said something, but because I in the US here said something. So they are, you know, taking them hostages against me. This is how they go after free speech. Not even in the kingdom, but also in the US here. It's a part of what internationally is being called now, transnational repression. And you go to this place, to the capital, just few miles, when my father is arrested and detained and is potentially facing the death penalty for something that is protected by free speech and you speech and you preach about, you know, free speech in Saudi Arabia. I think this is hypocritical to say the least. And it is hurting. It is hurting my family, myself. Ask Abd al Rahman al Sadhan. Who ran a satirical account on Twitter. And he was detained and tortured and sentenced to more than 20 years in prison because the Saudi government did not take a joke. If you're telling me that you're going to speak about things that are going to make fun of things, well, tell me how you're going to make fun of the person who, before you even came to Riyadh, made you sign a pledge and made you sign a contract. Then you're not going to criticize the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, the government, the Crown Prince or anything in Saudi Arabia. I don't know how you're going to talk about free speech while you just signed this kind of contract.

[Noel King]

At the end of the day, you know, the leaders in Saudi Arabia have an enormous amount of power. They have an enormous amount of money. They very clearly want to change their image. Is it working?

[Abdullah Aloda]

I think it is working. Look at these people. When you see the most famous comedians in Riyadh taking the money, not caring about anything else, I think it's working. It's sending the message that money basically trumps everything else. Whether we like it or not, whether human rights like it or not, whether democracy likes it or not, that's the reality. And the only way that we can change this fact is when people decline these offers. When people, at least when they went over there, talk about human rights or talk about the victims of the government that just hosted them. But otherwise the people who have the money is winning.

[Noel King]

That's Abdullah Aloda of the Middle East Democracy center in Washington D.C. coming up, hack, unhack, violence comedians turn on each other over the festival in Riyadh. Support for Today explained comes from Selectquote. Perhaps you're new to life insurance. For over 40 years, Selectquote says they've been one of the most trusted brokers in insurance, helping More than 2 million Americans secure more than $700 billion in coverage. Their mission, says Select Quote, is simple. To find you the right term insurance policy for your unique needs. They shop, you save. Select Quote says you won't have to sort through dozens of confusing options on your own. Instead, one of their licensed agents will find the right policy at the right price for you. Comparing plans from trusted top rated insurance companies to find a policy that fits your health and your budget. Select Quote says Selectquote has partners with policies that are designed for many pre existing health conditions as well. Life insurance is never cheaper than it is today, says Selectquote. Get the right term life insurance for you for less and save more than [e-mail] explained save more than 50% on term life [e-mail] explained today to get started. That's SelectQuote.com explained.

[Anthropic Representative]

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[Seth Simons]

Basically a bunch of a list. Comedians like Dave Chappelle, Louis ck, Aziz Ansari, Bill Burr, all just over the last two weeks went to Riyadh to perform at the inaugural Riyadh Comedy Festival funded by the Saudi government. Which is a little surprising because a lot of these comedians have spent the last 10 years or so complaining about how in America you can't say anything.

[Aziz Ansari]

Hey, if you do anything wrong in your life, duh, and I find out about it, I'm gonna try to take everything away from you.

[Seth Simons]

Any comedian who's out in the world saying that comedian shouldn't be saying these things. Yeah, that's a traitor to comedy as a comedian.

[Aziz Ansari]

I think anything on stage or anything that's an attempt of a joke to me, no matter what it is, no matter how big of a swing you.

[Abdullah Aloda]

Take into this, you miss, you're allowed to.

[Seth Simons]

They treat this as assault on their civil liberties, and they sort of frame themselves as the vanguard of free speech. They are the, you know, the front lines of. Of speech in America, of. Of liberty in America. And so, you know, to go and perform and take money from a regime that is notoriously repressive that, you know, locks people up and even executes people for what they say seemed a little hypocritical. I think it's hypocritical that Seth Simons.

[Noel King]

He'S a journalist and critic who covers the comedy industry, and Seth has been reporting from the front lines of comedy's civil war.

[Seth Simons]

A bunch of comedians like Marc Maron or Dave Cross or Atsuko Okatsuka found this to be a betrayal of their ostensible values and criticize these comedians.

[Aziz Ansari]

I mean, the same guy that's gonna pay them is the same guy that paid that guy to bonesaw Jamal Khashoggi and put him in a fucking suitcase. But don't let that stop the yucks. It's gonna be a good time.

[Seth Simons]

I think it's embarrassing to go on.

[Aziz Ansari]

Stage and tell jokes that if some.

[Seth Simons]

Of the audience members tweeted from their own personal accounts, could lead to them being executed.

[Aziz Ansari]

I think that's embarrassing.

[Noel King]

How did Saudi manage to book all these guys?

[Seth Simons]

I don't know exactly, but I know they worked with wme, the mega talent agency, and they worked with Bruce Hills, who was for years in charge of Just for Laughs, the huge comedy festival in Montreal. So they have a lot of ways to lure a list comedians, and they also threw a lot of money at them. There's a comedian named Tim Dillon who on his podcast bragged that they're paying.

[Aziz Ansari]

Me $375,000 for one show.

[Seth Simons]

He also, in that same podcast, told a bunch of jokes about. Not really jokes, but being generous about how, you know, they have slaves in Saudi Arabia and they murdered a journalist for criticizing them. And he said, do I have issues.

[Aziz Ansari]

With some of the policies towards women, towards the gays, towards the.

[Abdullah Aloda]

Yeah.

[Aziz Ansari]

Towards the freedom of speech? Well, of course I do, but I believe in my own financial well being.

[Seth Simons]

And then he got fired for saying all that. He also said that now a lot.

[Aziz Ansari]

Of other people are getting 1.6 million. That's not me. I'm not in that bracket.

[Seth Simons]

I assume that means the chappelles, the Louis CK's, the Kevin Harts, you know, made more than a million. And, you know, he's friends with some of those comedians. So I do think he has sort of inside info.

[Noel King]

What interesting things have the comedians that went there said about performing there?

[Seth Simons]

They sort of framed it as a cultural interchange. You know, they are bringing comedy to this people who doesn't have a lot of standup comedy.

[Abdullah Aloda]

I guess whenever there's repressive societies like.

[Aziz Ansari]

This, they try to keep things out.

[Abdullah Aloda]

Whether it's rock and roll music or.

[Aziz Ansari]

You know, blue jeans.

[Abdullah Aloda]

Cause it makes people curious about outside ideas, outside values. And to me, like, a comedy festival.

[Aziz Ansari]

Felt like something that's pushing things to be more open. There's some good in it, maybe some.

[Seth Simons]

Bad in it, but I think for me, it cuts towards going.

[Aziz Ansari]

And that's my decision. And that's. I know where it's coming from, because.

[Seth Simons]

I can see right inside myself. They've said that they didn't have to censor themselves, even though they sort of agreed to a contract that forbade criticizing the Saudi government and religion.

[Bill Burr]

And other than that, it was all. Everything was, like, open.

[Seth Simons]

You've seen some of them say that, you know, there were women at these shows. There were young people at these shows. They weren't just performing for the royals. I believe it was Bill Burr and some others have said that they, you know, did fairly raunchy jokes.

[Bill Burr]

Josh is up there. And he literally said. He goes, you can wear sandals over here and still get pussy. And everybody laughed. And the guy goes, yeah.

[Seth Simons]

There was a comedian named Chris DiStefano who said that, you know, someone shouted at him, we wish you were more vulgar.

[Aziz Ansari]

A girl said that. She was like, give us the dirty.

[Anthropic Representative]

So thirsty for it.

[Seth Simons]

Yeah. The joke he said was, oh, you want me to do the dirty stuff? Let's kill all the Jews. Was how he recalled that on his podcast. Oh, yeah. I mean, that's the sort of stuff you see on these podcasts. And they've said that they got treated very well. Destefano said that Whitney Cummings said that no one has treated her as well in the US as the Saudis treated her. You've seen a lot of videos posted by the Saudis running the festival of, like, these comedians getting plied with flowers and, you know, surrounded by food and just sort of being given the red carpet, which I think is important to a lot of these Comedians to feel like they are important and famous celebrities.

[Noel King]

Are they outliers in the history of comedians? Like, I'm thinking about George Carlin, Lenny Bruce. Like, didn't they also push the envelope wherever they could and then scream free speech when anybody pushed back at them?

[Seth Simons]

Yes and no. Carlin and Bruce were both arrested for their acts. Bruce was prosecuted and convicted.

[Aziz Ansari]

San Francisco.

[Bill Burr]

I got arrested for.

[Aziz Ansari]

I'm not going to repeat the word because I want to finish the gig here tonight.

[Seth Simons]

It's George Carlin. His act sort of led to a Supreme Court decision that basically upheld the FCC's power to regulate indecency and obscenity on public airwaves.

[Aziz Ansari]

You know, what are these words that I'm talking about? They're just words that we've decided, sort of decided not to use all the time. That's about the only thing you can really say about them for sure, that they're just some words. Not many either, just a few that we've decided, well, we won't use them all the time.

[Seth Simons]

Both those guys and others like them took actual heat. They were, you know, targeted by the state in a way that none of these comedians have been. And I do at the same time also think that a lot of the history of comedy is a history of sort of aggrieved men using their art form to say horrible things about, you know, about black people, about gay people. But, you know, the people who comedians treat as their icons, like Carlin and Lenny Bruce, I think did legitimately fight and suffer for their rights.

[Noel King]

The pushback was really interesting because it came not just from, you know, schmoes, but. But people like Marc Maron.

[Seth Simons]

Yeah.

[Noel King]

How big of a deal is it? I mean, in a month, do we care what Pete Davidson did in Saudi Arabia? Like, does this tarnish these guys?

[Seth Simons]

I don't know. And I'll be curious to see. I do think it is a big deal for other comedians to speak out because, you know, if you've been paying attention to comedy over the last five, six years, you've seen obviously Chappelle release a series of anti trans specials and declare himself a terf.

[Aziz Ansari]

TERF is an acronym, stands for Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists. This is a real thing. This is a group of women that hate transgender. They don't hate transgender women, but they look at trans women the way we blacks might look at blackface. It offends them. Like, oh, this bitch is doing an impression of me.

[Seth Simons]

You saw in, like the very first months of the pandemic when people were still Dying by the thousands and you know, there was no vaccine. A lot of these comedians we're talking about now went right back out on the road in May, June 2020 and performed across the country in very fairly are often underground rooms that were super spreader events.

[Abdullah Aloda]

I wasn't going to talk about the.

[Seth Simons]

Coronavirus.

[Abdullah Aloda]

But on the way here I.

[Seth Simons]

Got really ill and you know, you've seen just sort of racism. Levels of racism that would have been scandalous six years ago are now normal on these comedians podcasts and sometimes in their acts. And you don't see a lot of criticism of that from other comedians. So I think there's a lot of shady stuff that happens in comedy that would be a big deal if people like Marc Maron or other ostensibly liberal and left leaning or just plain good decent comics made a fuss about it. But I think a lot of them sort of just want to stay in their lane and not make a fuss. But to answer your question, it is very notable that this caused the uproar. It did. And even fans, if you go to these comedians like subreddits or if you look at their comment sections on Twitter, you'll see a lot of their fans are bringing it up pretty constantly. I do think they sort of maybe went a little too far in a way that they might, the comedians might not have expected would cause the backlash it did. But it remains to be seen how well that will be metabolized by a public that is sort of, you know, obviously dealing with a constant stream of horrible news and disappointing public figures.

[Noel King]

Seth Simons, he's a journalist and critic who covers comedy, of course. Hadi Mwagdi produced today's show. Amina El Saadi edited, Laura Bullard checks the facts and Adrian Lilly is our only engineer. Perhaps you'd like to become a VOX member. Why? Well, there's a sale on and Sean has another mouth to feed. If you do, you'll enjoy perks such as ad free versions of the show, unlimited reading on Vox.com an exclusive newsletter just for you. So much more. Sign up now. Get 30 off an annual membership vox.com members. Thank you by the way, for supporting Vox journalism. We really appreciate it.

[Seth Simons]

Who am I?

[Noel King]

I'm Noel King. It's Today explained.