Sex, lies, and Kristi Noem

Summary

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Today, Explained: "Sex, lies, and Kristi Noem"

Date: February 19, 2026
Host: Noel King
Guests: Michelle Hackman (WSJ immigration reporter), Berja Severin (Congressional Bureau Chief, Semaphore)
Main Theme:
This episode dives into the rapidly escalating political crisis and personal scandals surrounding Department of Homeland Security (DHS) Secretary Kristi Noem. Fuelled by controversial leadership decisions, a high-profile relationship with Corey Lewandowski, mishandled immigration enforcement, and a subsequent partial government shutdown, the episode explores the consequences for the Biden administration, immigration policy, and Washington’s power dynamics.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Kristi Noem's DHS Leadership and Personal Chaos

• The Viral Blanket Incident
  • Kristi Noem allegedly became so upset that her blanket was misplaced during an official trip that Corey Lewandowski, her top adviser and close companion, fired the pilot—only to rehire him when they realized they had no way home.

    “The pilot and the crew forgot to move her blanket onto the new plane. That angered Kristi Noem so much that Corey Lewandowski fired the pilot. But after the event, they realized that they had no one to fly them home, so they had to reinstate the pilot.”
    — Michelle Hackman [00:24]

2. Blame and Fallout after Minneapolis Killings

• Kristi Noem faces intense scrutiny for two fatal Border Patrol shootings in Minneapolis. As public and political pressure mounts, the administration scrambles to shift the narrative.

  “Kristi Noem is realizing that she is taking the blame for what happened in Minneapolis.”
  — Michelle Hackman [02:28]

• Internal efforts to save her public image, such as requests for favorable ads, are rebuffed; Trump grows frustrated with Noem but stops short of firing her.

  “Her top advisor, Corey Lewandowski, reaches out to Trump's pollster and says, can you cut an ad for us? ... We need to do something. The idea was basically to cut some kind of ad that would make her look good, make her look strong, try to change the narrative away from these two killings in Minneapolis...”
  — Michelle Hackman [03:02]

3. The Noem-Lewandowski Relationship and Its Implications

• Lewandowski is officially Noem's chief adviser, though the title is not formal, and their relationship is widely reported as romantic, despite both being married and public denials.

  “Corey Lewandowski is Kristi Noem's top advisor... The two have been dating. We've reported in the past that they have been dating since roughly 2019.”
  — Michelle Hackman [04:37]
  “They both are married, huh? They both publicly deny the fact that they're in a relationship, although sources tell us that inside the department, they do very little to hide it.”
  — Michelle Hackman [06:20]

• Trump is aware and reportedly uncomfortable but still appointed Noem as a favor to Lewandowski, seeing her role as a political stepping stone.

  “He actually convinced Donald Trump to appoint Kristi Noem as DHS secretary as a favor to him.”
  — Michelle Hackman [05:34]

4. Noem’s Leadership Style: Flashy & Problematic

• Noem brings a made-for-TV approach to immigration enforcement: public ICE raids, posing in tactical gear, and dramatizing actions for the cameras.

  “She has sort of prioritized a style of immigration enforcement that is really flashy, and she's done it herself. She's gone on ICE raids where she herself will wear the flak jacket... She will hold, you know, a really heavy automatic weapon. And some have said, you know, she doesn't hold it in the correct way.”
  — Michelle Hackman [06:56], [07:50]
  “She’s always also looking very TV ready... and she's brought that style to immigration enforcement where she has pushed agents, you know, always make sure that the arrests you're making are on camera, you know, and if they are resisting you, sort of the more resistance, the better. The flashier, the better.”
  — Michelle Hackman [08:05]

• Internal backlash grows as her approach is seen as endangering officers and public support.

  “People at ICE actually feel like that style is getting in the way, is... turning public opinion against them, but also putting their officers at increased risk.”
  — Michelle Hackman [08:47]

5. Flashpoint: Two Minneapolis Shootings and Aftermath

• The first deadly shooting leads to initial support, but after a second, graphic incident, the administration panics as public opinion shifts sharply negative.

  “By the time the second shooting happened and people saw that video... there is no way that we can justify this. You know, there wasn't an angle that was flattering to them. And so people started panicking.”
  — Michelle Hackman [09:35]

6. Criticism from Within: Rodney Scott and Others

• Criticism comes not just from Democrats, but GOP immigration hardliners and DHS senior staff, especially over Noem’s promotion of aggressive subordinates and bypassing command structures.

  “One thing I really wanna emphasize is that this is not left wing criticism of Kristi Noem. These are hardcore Trump supporters inside the administration... Rodney Scott was really upset about a few things. Kristi Noem had elevated a guy in the Border Patrol... supportive of him to the point where she removed him from the normal chain of command... report to me directly.”
  — Michelle Hackman [10:33], [11:22]

• When confronted by Rodney Scott, Noem retaliates by removing his top staff and installing loyalists.

  “She responds basically by retaliating against Rodney Scott, firing or reassigning his closest advisors... And at one point, she told him, you know, I have direct communication with your deputy. He is in charge of the agency. You are not in charge.”
  — Michelle Hackman [12:32]

7. Potential Corruption & Bottlenecking DHS Funds

• Noem and Lewandowski personally approve every contract over $100,000, leading to delays and questions about conflicts of interest, especially since Lewandowski is still in the private sector.

  “There's a huge concern that Christy and Corey are personally signing off on every contract over $100,000... because Corey Lewandowski is still in the private sector... there may be potential conflicts of interest.”
  — Michelle Hackman [13:10]

• Their delays have cost taxpayers, notably when bulk steel contracts for the border wall rose by $100 million due to procrastination.

  “In the month and a half it took Kristi Noem to sign this contract, the price of bulk steel... went up by more than $100 million.”
  — Michelle Hackman [14:34]

8. White House Stuck in a Bind

• Trump, loyal to Lewandowski but frustrated with Noem’s leadership, is reluctant to act, fearing it undermines the narrative of his “perfect cabinet.”

  “Trump feels a lot of loyalty to Corey Lewandowski and is not yet ready to fire Kristi Noem, that he has soured on her, he's frustrated with her. But... if he fires one of his cabinet secretaries, it's sort of like an admission that he did not pick the perfect cabinet.”
  — Michelle Hackman [14:44]

• GOP allies are urging Trump to make a change, believing a new DHS chief could better deliver on tough immigration promises.

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Shutdown Showdown

9. Partial Government Shutdown & Political Standoff

• Homeland Security funding lapses, leading to a partial government shutdown. ICE and Customs and Border Protection (CBP) are insulated for now due to pre-funded appropriations, but TSA, FEMA, and Coast Guard are impacted.

  “The Department of Homeland Security, which does a lot more than immigration enforcement, is now shut down and not funded, or at least portions of it are not.”
  — Berja Severin [19:57]
  “Tax cuts law from 2025 sent billions and billions... So what you actually get is Democrats are depriving ICE and CBP of additional funding... but they still are sitting on a mountain of cash.”
  — Berja Severin [22:02]

10. Democratic and Republican Stances

• After the shootings, Democrats refuse to fund DHS without reforms: judicial warrants for enforcement in homes, anti-mask rules, clear IDs for ICE agents, and universal use of body cameras.

  “They want judicial warrants for immigration enforcement... change their uniforms, not wear masks, more clearly identify themselves and wear IDs. And they also want nationalized use of body cameras.”
  — Berja Severin [22:52]

• The White House is publicly flexible but fundamentally resistant to shifting enforcement policies.

  “The idea that Trump is going to cave and give Democrats what they want seems very unrealistic right now.”
  — Berja Severin [24:32]

11. Political Dynamics: Democratic Voters Harden Positions

• With the 2026 Democratic primaries underway, base voters urge leaders not to compromise. Party discipline is stronger than in past shutdowns, with only a few dissenters.

  “Primary voters are generally the people that most lean on Democratic leaders at times like this, and they are saying don't cave... there's evidence that caving is much less popular on this shutdown than it is for the last one.”
  — Berja Severin [24:53]

12. What Might End the Stalemate?

• The pain will likely intensify as more DHS employees go unpaid, but no deal is in sight. Backchannel talks continue, suggesting some fragile hope for negotiation.

  “I don't see a short term end to this, short of some surprising deal... negotiations are ongoing, but senate’s on recess... So it doesn't look like this problem's going away anytime soon and it's going to get only more and more public attention as it happens.”
  — Berja Severin [26:47], [28:10]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Noem’s decision-making:

  “This is one of those stories that I think it went viral because it speaks to a lot of the frustration with how Kristi Noem makes personnel decisions and decisions more broadly.”
  — Michelle Hackman [00:07]

• On the public’s perception of Noem’s style:

  “She's making herself a main character. And initially it seems like maybe it's working... a lot of the reaction I saw was like, hey, this is really cool. Kristi Noem is, like, really doing it. She's a badass. However, this becomes a problem once Minneapolis explodes.”
  — Noel King [08:47]

• On administrative paralysis:

  “Part of the problem is if he fires one of his cabinet secretaries, it's sort of like an admission that he did not pick the perfect cabinet.”
  — Michelle Hackman [14:44]

• On the hardened stance of Democrats:

  “Democratic primary voters are generally the people that most lean on Democratic leaders at times like this, and they are saying don't cave.”
  — Berja Severin [24:53]

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Key Timestamps for Segments

• Kristi Noem’s “blanket” incident: [00:24]
• Origin of political blowback after Minneapolis: [02:28]–[03:02]
• Noem-Lewandowski relationship established: [04:37]–[06:20]
• Signature DHS “flashy” operations: [06:56]–[08:47]
• On-the-ground reactions post-shootings: [09:35]–[10:21]
• Internal Republican pushback, Rodney Scott drama: [10:33]–[12:57]
• Financial/procedural bottlenecks in DHS contracts: [13:10]–[14:34]
• Trump’s reluctance to fire Noem: [14:44]
• Partial government shutdown, agencies affected: [19:57], [22:02]
• What each party is demanding: [22:52]
• Democratic discipline and primary pressure: [24:53]
• Shutdown endgame speculation: [26:47]–[28:10]

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Tone and Language

The conversations are brisk, candid, and at times sardonic. The guests and hosts do not mince words, blending hard news explanation with juicy, sometimes incredulous behind-the-scenes details. There’s an undercurrent of exasperation at the dysfunction within DHS and the broader government, as well as bemusement at the personal drama fueling a national crisis.

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Summary prepared for listeners who want an in-depth catch-up on the explosive situation at DHS, Kristi Noem’s embattled tenure, the partisan stalemate, and the political and personal entanglements threatening U.S. immigration policy and government function.

Transcript

[Noel King]

How much of a mess is Department of Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem? We all have eyes, but this is

[Michelle Hackman]

one of those stories that I think it went viral because I think it speaks to a lot of the frustration with how Kristi Noem makes personnel decisions and decisions more broadly.

[Noel King]

But the Wall Street Journal, which recently went digging into some of Noem's decisions, has sources.

[Michelle Hackman]

We were told by numerous sources that she was on a trip and, you know, she flies a Coast Guard plane or used to fly a Coast Guard plane, and there were mechanical issues with the plane, so they switched planes and the pilot and the crew forgot to move her blanket onto the new plane. That angered Kristi Noem so much that Corey Lewandowski fired the pilot. But after the event, they realized that they had no one to fly them home, so they had to reinstate the pilot.

[Noel King]

Coming up on Today Explained Kristi Noemi has issues.

[Michelle Hackman]

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[Preet Bharara]

When the political winds change, will there be accountability for those who bent the knee for the Trump administration?

[Berja Severin]

If these corporations think that the Democrats, when they come back in power, are

[Michelle Hackman]

gonna play by the old rules and say, oh, never mind, we'll forgive you, I think they've got another thing coming.

[Preet Bharara]

I'm Preet Bharara, and this week Ambassador Susan Rice joins me to discuss leadership, decision making and the state of the rule of law in America. The episode is out now. Search and follow. Stay tuned with Preet Wherever you get your podcasts, This is TODAY explained.

[Noel King]

Last week, the Wall Street Journal published a blockbuster story about DHS Secretary Kristi Noem's vast and varied messes. The story begins two days after Border Patrol agents shot and killed Alex Preddy. WSJ immigration reporter Michelle Hackman picks it up from there.

[Michelle Hackman]

Kristi Noem is realizing that she is taking the blame for what happened in Minneapolis.

[Berja Severin]

I've made it very clear she is

[Preet Bharara]

way out of her depth.

[Berja Severin]

You can see the chaos in Minnesota.

[Preet Bharara]

She's deeply unqualified. She never should have been confirmed to Begin with, Kristi Noem needs to go.

[Michelle Hackman]

But suddenly the mood has shifted even inside the administration.

[Berja Severin]

I have proposed, and President Trump has concur that this surge operation conclude.

[Michelle Hackman]

And she's basically thinking she needs to do something to save herself. She needs to salvage her image. We were using the best information we had at the time, seeking to be transparent with the American people. And her top advisor, Corey Lewandowski, reaches out to Trump's pollster and says, can you cut an ad for us? We need to do. We're desperate. We need to do something. The idea was basically to cut some kind of ad that would make her look good, make her look strong, try to change the narrative away from these two killings in Minneapolis that she was basically taking the blame for. She was met basically with silence. Tony Fabrizio, Trump's pollster, didn't even respond to them, but he went and told other people that this happened in that moment. Trump was feeling fed up with Christy Noem. You know, the President had seen Kristi Noem on TV over the weekend, basically, you know, know comparing Alex Preddy and what Alex Preddy had done to an act of terrorism. He'd seen the really negative coverage of it, and he, in that moment, was. Was really unhappy with her. You know, he wasn't quite ready to fire her yet, but he wasn't in a mood to help her.

[Noel King]

Okay, so it was Kristi Noem's adviser, Corey Lewandowski, who reached out to try to help her, save her. Corey Lewandowski and Kristi Noem have a very interesting relationship that I think your reporting shows goes beyond top advisor. Tell me what's going on there.

[Michelle Hackman]

Interesting relationships. A good way to put it. Corey Lewandowski is Kristi Noem's top advisor. He signs documents, Chief Advisor to the Secretary, which is not really an official title. The two have been dating. We've reported in the past that they have been dating since roughly 2019. Are they a couple of.

[Berja Severin]

I mean, I'll let others. I mean, there's. They're obviously very close.

[Michelle Hackman]

The Daily Mail investigation has uncovered extensive evidence of the couple's romantic relationship. Dozens of trips that mix business with pleasure. Stays at luxury resorts where their intimacy

[Berja Severin]

was observed and noted.

[Michelle Hackman]

Of course. Corey Lewandowski is Trump's first campaign manager. He is a personal friend of Donald Trump's.

[Berja Severin]

I would not look back. I have no regrets. It's such a privilege and an honor to have been a very small part of this, to learn and experience what he's been able to achieve in the

[Preet Bharara]

electoral success that he has had, it's been truly amazing.

[Michelle Hackman]

And he actually convinced Donald Trump to appoint Kristi Noem as DHS secretary as a favor to him. He has high ambitions for Noem, for her political career, and he saw the DHS secretary role sort of as a stepping stone to future things. Interestingly, with Lewandowski, Trump, you know, he knew about this relationship. He reportedly talks about it, sources have told us. He jokes about it to this day. And he actually had felt uncomfortable with giving Corey Lewandowski the Chief of staff job specifically because he felt weird about him dating Noem.

[Noel King]

And not to be indelicate, but both Corey Lewandowski and Kristi Noem are married.

[Michelle Hackman]

They both are married, huh? They both publicly deny the fact that they're in a relationship, although sources tell us that inside the department, they do very little to hide it. I. I, in fact, went on a trip with them where Lewandowski was on the trip the whole time. And we've been told that he travels everywhere with her. He appears in many photos, you know, alongside her. They're basically inseparable. She doesn't do meetings without him.

[Noel King]

Let's pull back for a minute and talk about how Kristi Noem has reshaped the Department of Homeland Security. What would you say her signature moves have been?

[Michelle Hackman]

She has done several really major things. I mean, most visibly with Minneapolis. She has sort of prioritized a style of immigration enforcement that is really flashy, and she's done it herself. She's gone on ICE raids where she herself will wear the flak jacket. Video captured by Medina and neighbors shows a large number of ICE agents accompanied by the Secretary of Homeland Security, Kristi Noem. And do you know why we're here today? You will be held accountable for your crimes. She will, you know, pose in the pilot seat of a Coast Guard plane. Here she is, all decked out in her Border Patrol garb.

[Berja Severin]

She is not a Customs and Border Patrol agent, but she had them, like, make her a uniform, I guess, including the hat.

[Michelle Hackman]

She will hold, you know, a really heavy automatic weapon. And some have said, you know, she doesn't hold it in the correct way.

[Preet Bharara]

And you're pointing that weapon directly at that guy's head. So that is a problem, Secretary Noem.

[Michelle Hackman]

And she's all, you know, she's always also looking very TV ready. She always has her hair done, her makeup done, while she's sort of in these poses. And she's brought that style to immigration Enforcement where she has pushed agents, you know, always make sure that the Arrests you're making are on camera, you know, and if they are resisting you, sort of the more resistance, the better. The flashier, the better. She's received a lot of resistance for that internally, because people at ICE actually feel like that style is getting in the way, is first of all turning public opinion against them, but also sort of putting their officers at increased risk.

[Noel King]

Right. So she's making herself a main character. And initially it seems like maybe it's working. I mean, I remember when she posed with the men at seacot at the prison in El Salvador.

[Michelle Hackman]

I also want everybody to know, if you come to our country illegally, this is one of the consequences you could face. I was there, by the way. You were just out of frame. Wow.

[Noel King]

Okay. And like, she's made up and the men are just kind of like, like, stacked behind her, looking very grim. And yet a lot of the reaction I saw was like, hey, this is really cool. Kristi Noem is, like, really doing it. She's a badass. However, this becomes a problem once Minneapolis explodes. Tell me about the pushback both inside and outside the administration as that situation went up in flames.

[Michelle Hackman]

So after the first deadly shooting in Minneapolis, people actually rallied around her and her team, basically saying, you know, that was a justified shooting, that this is what people believed inside the administration. But by the time the second shooting happened and people saw that video, people watched that video and they were like, there is no way that we can justify this. You know, there wasn't an angle that was flattering to them. And so people started panicking. You know, they were like, they saw the negative headlines, they saw public opinion turning against them. Immigration is supposed to be Trump's best issue, and suddenly he's negative on immigration. So people really were panicking and they were looking for a scapegoat.

[Noel King]

One thing that surprised me is that it is not just the expected critics who have come after Kristi Noem at this point. Tell me about Rodney Scott, the commissioner of cbp.

[Michelle Hackman]

Yeah. One thing I really wanna emphasize is that this is not left wing criticism of Kristi Noem. These are hardcore Trump supporters inside the administration who are supportive of his immigration agenda and basically feel that she's getting in his way, that someone more effective could be doing the job. And I would say Rodney Scott was one of the loudest voices with that view. So Rodney Scott, you know, was really upset about a few things. Kristi Noem had elevated a guy in the Border Patrol. His name is Greg Bevino. All right, good afternoon.

[Berja Severin]

My name is Greg Bovino. I'm the commander at large for Customs and Border Protection assets here in the great city of Minneapolis. I'm here to talk.

[Michelle Hackman]

She sort of has this very similar view that she does, that immigration enforcement should be flashy and confrontational. He's the person who sent the huge groups of roving Border Patrol agents out on the streets of Los Angeles and Chicago and then Minneapolis. She was supportive of him to the point where she removed him from the normal chain of command. You know, he normally would have to report up to the Border Patrol chief and then to Rodney Scott, who's the Customs and Border Protection commissioner. And she said, no, no, no. You report to me directly. Rodney Scott was really offended by that, objected vociferously to that, and also said, you know, what you guys are doing is going to be a step back for the entire administration because your style is too confrontational. We were told that he was so confrontational with Kristi Noem and Corey Lewandowski. At one point, he told Corey Lewandowski, I don't have to listen to you anymore because clearly you've been lying about how many days you've been working and your special government employee status is over. Wow.

[Noel King]

And then how does she respond?

[Michelle Hackman]

She responds basically by retaliating against Rodney Scott, firing or reassigning his closest advisors at CBP and installing her personal loyalist to be his chief of staff, his deputy. And at one point, she told him, you know, I have direct communication with your deputy. He is in charge of the agency. You are not in charge.

[Noel King]

If all the interpersonal drama were not enough, there are also questions that you raise in your reporting about the way Kristi Noem and Corey Lewandowski are spending agency funds. Tell me about that.

[Michelle Hackman]

There's a huge concern that Christy and Corey are personally signing off on every contract over $100,000.

[Noel King]

Huh.

[Michelle Hackman]

Now, this is DHS. They have hundreds of billions of dollars. People have, you know, raised concerns that because Corey Lewandowski is still in the private sector and also signing off that there may be potential conflicts of interest. It also more immediately has created a bottleneck where people contracts are lapsing or very nearly lapsing because they're sitting on her desk for months. This became a huge problem with the border wall, which is, you know, one of Trump's signature policies, one of his signature projects. Congress just gave him $46 billion to build more of the border wall through the one big beautiful bill. And at cbp, they've been busy sort of striking contracts that have been sitting on Kristi Noem's desk for Months. There was a contract for bulk steel for the border wall. It was, you know, it was a huge contract because they had need a lot of steel to build a wall that's hundreds of miles long. And in the month and a half it took Kristi Noem to sign this contract, the price of bulk steel, like they hadn't locked it in yet. The price of bulk steel went up by more than $100 million.

[Noel King]

All right, so at this point, President Trump gets to make some decisions, right? It's his prerogative. What do you think? Is the White House still behind Kristi Noem?

[Michelle Hackman]

We have been told that Trump feels a lot of loyalty to Corey Lewandowski and is not yet ready to fire Kristi Noem, that he has soured on her, he's frustrated with her. But, you know, the problem is Trump went around after inauguration saying he's appointed the perfect cabinet. And so part of the problem is if he fires one of his cabinet secretaries, it's sort of like an admission that he did not pick the perfect cabinet. But at the same time, pressure on him is really growing. I mean, there's a full court press of Republican senators, outside allies who are trying to make the case to Trump that he can do better, that if he had someone else at the helm of dhs, it would actually be better for his promise of a mass deportation.

[Noel King]

Michelle Hackman. You can read her exclusives and so much more at the Wall Street Journal. Coming up, how a fight over ICE shut the government down. Again, Foreign. Comes from Shopify. Starting a new business has never been easy, says Shopify. But without the right tools, it can feel almost impossible. Perhaps Shopify can set you up for success. Shopify is a commerce platform used by millions of businesses around the world. They say they can help you tackle important tasks. Inventory, payments, analytics. So much more. No need to save multiple websites or try to figure out what platform is hosting the tool that you need. Everything is all in one place, making your life easier and your business operations smoother. Let Shopify be your commerce expert. With world class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns and beyond, you can get started with your own design studio. With hundreds of ready to use templates, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store that matches your brand's style. It's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify. Today, you can sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today. @shopify.com explained. Go to shopify.com explained. What's that? That's shopify.com explained.

[Preet Bharara]

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[Noel King]

Bing, bing bing, bong bong bong bong bing.

[Berja Severin]

I'm Berja Severin. I'm the Congressional Bureau Chief for Semaphore

[Noel King]

and tell me where we stand right now. We have a partial government shutdown.

[Berja Severin]

Yeah, correct. Yep. The Department of Homeland Security, which does a Lot more than immigration enforcement is now shut down and not funded, or at least portions of it are not. And there's no obvious way out of it at this point.

[Noel King]

All right, how did we get here?

[Berja Severin]

We got here because of essentially the. The two fatal shootings in Minnesota by federal agents over the past couple months that prompted Democrats to basically break apart a bipartisan Department of Homeland Security funding bill, ask for it to be separated from a larger spending deal. The American people are just basically saying to us in Congress, do not fund this agency unless they change what they're doing, unless they stop terrorizing famil and young children.

[Preet Bharara]

From day one, I've said unless there

[Berja Severin]

are really strong, meaningful reforms to rein in ICE and stop the violence, there

[Preet Bharara]

will not be Democratic votes to fund ICE and extend the awful status quo that now exists. The ball is in the court right now of the Republicans.

[Berja Severin]

It got separated. Those bills all passed. They had two weeks of funding for DHS and they could not reach a deal on changes to immigration enforcement. And now we are in a standoff between the White House and Senate Democrats over immigration enforcement policy. And there has been some negotiating, but no breakthrough. And everybody's still pretty far apart.

[Preet Bharara]

The American people clearly know that ICE is totally out of control and they need to be reined in.

[Michelle Hackman]

We have Immigrations and Customs Enforcement for a reason. These agents, these officers are doing heroic

[Berja Severin]

work trying to keep our communities safe.

[Preet Bharara]

These are common sense proposals.

[Berja Severin]

They're supported by the American people. Why won't Republicans go for them?

[Preet Bharara]

They don't give any good answers.

[Noel King]

I want to ask you about the impacts of this shutdown on the government agencies themselves. So if I hear that there's no funding, I think that ICE is, for example, not being funded. Customs and Border Patrol not being funded. Is that actually what's happening here?

[Berja Severin]

It's a very strange situation because the tax cuts law from 2025 sent billions and billions and billions of dollars for ICE and Customs and Border Patrol. So government shuts down. Normally, those agencies are impacted, workers don't get paid, et cetera. But that isn't what happened because they front loaded all this immigration enforcement funding. So what you actually get is Democrats are depriving ICE and CBP of additional funding on top of that, but they still are sitting on a mountain of cash. So they can do essentially what they've been doing during the shutdown. Where workers will start to miss paychecks and where the pain points will come are places like tsa, FEMA, and Coast Guard.

[Noel King]

Okay, so as with the last shutdown it is that the Democrats have asks in order to reach a deal. What are the Democrats asking for?

[Berja Severin]

They have a very long list of bullet points. I think if you really want to kind of boil it down to what, what their, the big sticking points are and what their main asks are. It's they want judicial warrants for immigration enforcement to go in people's houses, et cetera. Republicans say that's too umbersome. They want ICE agents to change their uniforms, not wear masks, more clearly identify themselves and wear IDs. And they also want nationalized use of body cameras. And the bipartisan deal to fund DHS before the shooting of Alex Preddy had some more accountability training measures, body camera funding in it. And the Trump administration basically says since Democrats have abandoned that deal and now the department's funding has lapsed, they actually have a lot more flexibility to do things their way. So it's a little bit of a implicit threat that, hey, you know, we were going to respond to your demands before, and now that you've let the government shut down, we may just do whatever we want to.

[Noel King]

Are Republicans anywhere close to caving, or are they prepared for a long shutdown?

[Berja Severin]

They seem prepared for a long shutdown. And President Trump hates shutdowns. He made that very clear during the last one. But this is kind of his signature thing, right? His, his immigration enforcement, deportations, sealing up the border. So they put out a statement this week saying, you know, we want to have good faith conversations with Democrats. But also, the president is committed to the immigration enforcement priorities that he campaigned on.

[Michelle Hackman]

We've been engaged in good faith negotiations with the Democrats. Last night, they sent over a counter proposal that frankly, was very unserious. And we hope they get serious very soon because Americans are going to be impacted by this.

[Berja Severin]

So that kind of lets you know that, like, maybe there's some flexibility there to, like, nibble around the edges. But the idea that Trump is going to cave and give Democrats what they want seems very unrealistic right now.

[Noel King]

All right, so the story of the last shutdown was, will the Democrats take the blame? If they keep drawing it out and drawing it out, what incentive do they have now to keep drawing it out and drawing it out?

[Berja Severin]

Well, the calendar is very different than October, November of last year. And I say that because people are starting to vote in Democratic primaries as we speak, in places like North Carolina and Texas, and the longer this stretches more and more states. So Democratic primary voters are generally the people that most lean on Democratic leaders at times like this, and they are saying don't cave. And already there's evidence that caving is much less popular on this shutdown than it is for the last one because only one Democrat has voted to advance the DHS funding. That's John Federman of Pennsylvania.

[Michelle Hackman]

ICE already has $75 billion in funding

[Berja Severin]

from the big beautiful bill that I

[Michelle Hackman]

did not vote for.

[Berja Severin]

So what it will impact is that

[Michelle Hackman]

will shut down important parts of dhs.

[Berja Severin]

He's kind of the contrarian of the caucus. Now two other members of the caucus, Angus King of Maine and independent Catherine Cortez Masto of Nevada, have voted against funding DHS after voting to fund the full government last shutdown. So you can see Democrats are a little bit more dug in this time and their position is a lot more hardened in comparison.

[Noel King]

And they're dug in, you're saying, because voters are dug in. Voters are fed up with ice. With ICE pulling out of Minneapolis. Do you think voter sentiment on this stays strong?

[Berja Severin]

I think it could change over time. I think there's also like, are they actually pulling out of Minneapolis? Is a question that Democrats are asking themselves. A little bit of a trust but verify. I mean, I do think if we're a month from now and I see is no longer visibly active in major American cities and we're not seeing videos of people getting mistreated by federal agents or perceived to be mistreated by federal agents, that could change the public sentiment. But right now I don't feel like that is the case.

[Noel King]

What do you think might end this?

[Berja Severin]

I think the tsa, fema, Coast Guard missing paychecks will create more and more pressure. However, I don't see a short term end to this, short of some surprising deal between Senate minor Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, who's under a lot of pressure from those Democratic voters we just talked about, and President Donald Trump. So they kind of have this little bit of a back channel thing going. They're trading offers, they haven't really gotten closer. But the silver lining there is they're not talking about the substance of their offers and what is changing that much. And I know that seems like a weird silver lining, but usually when a negotiation is going really badly, all the details spill out in public. That isn't happening right now. So if there is a shred of hope that they could eventually get a deal, it is there. There seems to be some trust between the Democrats and the White House not to leak this out and make the other side look really bad right now. That is what will kind of propel any bit of optimism kind of into next week. But I will say this, the Senate's on recess right now. I don't think they're coming back until Monday. They're not coming back early. I think once they're back, probably do the State of the Union with the Department of Homeland Security shut down. So it doesn't look like this problem's going away anytime soon and it's going to get only more and more public attention as it happens.

[Noel King]

Semaphore's burgess everett, hadi mwagdi and danielle hewitt produced today's show. Aman el saadi edited, david tadashore engineered and andrea lopez crusado checked the facts. I'm noel king. It's today explained.

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