Sleepaway camp's nostalgia economy

Summary

Today, Explained: Sleepaway Camp's Nostalgia Economy
Vox Media Podcast Network | Released June 22, 2025

Hosts: Sean Rameswaram and Noel King
Summary By: [Your Name]

---

Introduction: The Significance of Sleepaway Camps

In the episode titled "Sleepaway Camp's Nostalgia Economy," hosts Sean Rameswaram and Noel King delve into the enduring cultural impact of summer sleepaway camps in America. Featuring insights from Leslie Paris, a professor at the University of British Columbia and author of Children: The Rise of the American Summer Camp, and producer Devin Schwartz, the discussion explores the historical roots, cultural significance, and modern challenges of sleepaway camps.

Historical Evolution of Summer Camps

Leslie Paris provides a comprehensive overview of the origins and evolution of American summer camps:

Leslie Paris (04:59): "The first camps were founded by urban middle-class men who were concerned about boys... they were nostalgic for an earlier day when more boys had grown up in rural places."

Paris explains that summer camps began in the late 19th century as a response to urbanization, aiming to provide outdoor and "manly" experiences for white boys. The YMCA played a pivotal role in expanding the camp movement, alongside other organizations like the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts, which introduced diverse camps catering to both boys and girls.

The Power of Nostalgia in Camp Culture

The concept of nostalgia is central to understanding the camp phenomenon:

Leslie Paris (05:20): "Camps were a place where children learned nostalgia. Many of those former children sent their own kids to camp."

Paris highlights a "triple nostalgia" encompassing the American past, camp communities, and individual childhood experiences. This nostalgia perpetuates the tradition, as adults reminisce about their own camp experiences and seek to recreate them for their children.

Listener Stories: Camp as a Place of Lifelong Connections

The podcast features heartfelt listener stories illustrating the lasting bonds formed at camp:

Listener Tiffany Andrew (05:57): "I met my husband at summer camp, and we got married at that same summer camp."

These anecdotes underscore the enduring personal relationships and cherished memories that camps foster, reinforcing their place in American culture.

Pop Culture and Sleepaway Camps

Sleepaway camps have been a staple in American pop culture, often depicted in various genres:

1. The Simpsons – "Camp Krusty" (09:42):

   • A satirical take where Krusty the Clown runs a dysfunctional camp.
   • Nina Volato (09:51): "Camps appear in a lot of modern American popular culture because... spaces of adventure and opportunity for children."

2. Wet Hot American Summer (13:18):

   • A cult classic parodying and paying homage to camp tropes with an ensemble cast including Paul Rudd and Amy Poehler.
   • Devin Schwartz (14:04): "Many of the camps felt a little too Christiany for me."

3. Friday the 13th Series (18:05):

   • Horror films centered around Camp Crystal Lake and the infamous Jason Voorhees.
   • Devin Schwartz (18:34): "The mythology of a camper turned villain named Jason Voorhees..."

4. Goosebumps – "Welcome to Camp Nightmare" (19:34):

   • A horror-themed episode where creepy events unfold at a sleepaway camp.
   • Leslie Paris (19:39): "It has feelings of nostalgia... it brings together friends from childhood through adulthood."

These representations range from comedic to horrific, reflecting the multifaceted nature of camp experiences in the collective imagination.

Modern Challenges of Summer Camps

While nostalgia paints camps in a positive light, the reality includes significant challenges:

• Expense and Exclusivity:

  • High costs make camps inaccessible for many families, leading to exclusivity.
  • Leslie Paris (22:23): "It's really not for younger kids... a certain level of maturity is needed."

• Intense Planning and Pressure:

  • Parents often begin planning camps as early as January, aiming to secure spots in desirable, affordable programs.
  • Leslie Paris (23:30): "It's a huge source of pressure for families."

Alternatives to Sleepaway Camp

Not all families can afford or desire sleepaway camps, leading to various alternatives:

1. Day Camps:

   • More affordable and accessible, often available within local communities.

2. Sliding Scale Programs:

   • Camps offering reduced fees based on family income, such as many YMCA camps.

3. Summer Schools and Educational Programs:

   • Initiatives like New York City's Summer Rising provide educational and recreational activities.

4. Flexible Family Schedules:

   • Some families opt for traveling or unstructured time, though this is heavily dependent on parents' work flexibility.

Leslie Paris (24:39): "A lot of families need camp because school is out and parents are still working... it's a real mismatch."

Policy and Family Dynamics

Policy decisions significantly impact the availability and quality of summer programs:

• Federal Funding Cuts:

  • Proposals like those from President Trump aiming to reduce federal support for after-school and summer learning programs threaten camp operations.
  • Leslie Paris (26:50): "Federal money supports some of these programs... anything that harms after-school programs is a problem for camps."

• Year-Round Schooling:

  • While intended to alleviate summer pressure, year-round schooling may not be a universally beneficial solution.
  • Leslie Paris (27:46): "Kids need time to play. They need time to relax."

Navigating Summer for Families Today

Balancing structured activities and unstructured time remains a challenge for modern families:

• Parental Pressure vs. Child Autonomy:

  • Parents often feel the need to provide enriching experiences, but Leslie Paris advises allowing children to create their own memories.
  • Leslie Paris (28:34): "Your kids are making their own memories... sometimes the summer is just gonna be stressful and that's how it's gonna be."

• Embracing Imperfection:

  • Accepting that not every summer can be perfectly curated can alleviate stress for both parents and children.

Conclusion: The Enduring Allure of Sleepaway Camps

Sleepaway camps hold a significant place in American culture, driven by nostalgia and the desire to provide meaningful experiences for children. However, modern challenges such as cost, accessibility, and policy changes necessitate a reevaluation of how summers are structured for families. By exploring alternatives and managing expectations, families can navigate the complexities of summer time, ensuring that children have both enriching experiences and much-needed relaxation.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Leslie Paris (05:20): "Camps were a place where children learned nostalgia... a nostalgic cultural practice that for many adults reminded them of their own adventures."
• Leslie Paris (23:30): "It's a huge source of pressure for families... it's a real mismatch."
• Leslie Paris (28:34): "Your kids are making their own memories... sometimes the summer is just gonna be stressful and that's how it's gonna be."

---

This episode sheds light on the multifaceted role of sleepaway camps in shaping childhood experiences and sustaining cultural nostalgia. By examining historical contexts, personal narratives, and contemporary challenges, "Today, Explained" offers a comprehensive exploration of why sleepaway camps continue to resonate in American society.

Transcript

[Jaclyn Hill]

After a long day. Have you ever wondered if you work to live or if you live to work? Neither. Do we. Why should we when the beach is always just a lime away?

[Devin Schwartz]

Corona La Playa awaits. Relax responsibly.

[Jaclyn Hill]

Corona Extra beer imported by Crown Import, Chicago, IL.

[Devin Schwartz]

Shop 4th of July Savings at the Home Depot right now and get up to 40% off plus up to an.

[Jaclyn Hill]

Extra $600 off select appliances with free delivery like Samsung.

[Leslie Paris]

From all in one washer dryers to smart refrigerators.

[Devin Schwartz]

Upgrade to tech you can trust with Samsung appliances. The Home Depot has what you need to simplify your routine. Don't miss 4th of July appliance savings.

[Jaclyn Hill]

At the Home Depot. Free delivery on appliance purchases of $396 or more offer valid June 18 through July 9.

[Leslie Paris]

US only.

[Devin Schwartz]

C stor online for details.

[Jaclyn Hill]

I'm a firm believer in camp.

[Leslie Paris]

It's this place where there are no parents.

[Nina Volato]

Camps illuminate the ways in which childhood was transformed.

[Jaclyn Hill]

I'm Jaclyn Hill. This is Explain it to me. And today on the show, we're going to camp. Summer sleepaway camp. To be specific.

[Nina Volato]

Nerves are normal whether it is your.

[Leslie Paris]

First summer with us or if you've.

[Jaclyn Hill]

Been to overnight camps before. I was so fortunate to go to sleepaway summer camp for two weeks. Bye, guys. I always imagined that sleepaway camp would be adventurous and life changing, kind of like in the Parent Trap. These long lost twins meet each other for the first time at camp and decide they've got one shot to reunite their broken family.

[Nina Volato]

I wish I may, I wish I might, I wish come true tonight.

[Jaclyn Hill]

Despite the fact that I never went to sleepaway camp, I'm very familiar with the concept. So how did camp get to be such a big deal anyway? I called up Leslie Paris to tell us. She teaches at the University of British Columbia and wrote a book called Children's the Rise of the American Summer Camp.

[Nina Volato]

It's never been the case that the majority of American children went to to summer camps, but summer camps came to assume a really important place in American popular culture. They started in the late 19th century. The industry grew phenomenally in the early 20th century and it continues today in many respects quite similarly to the way it was 130 years ago.

[Jaclyn Hill]

Okay, were there particular groups that developed this American summer camp as we know it or lots of different types of camps? Like how did we get camp?

[Nina Volato]

The first camps were founded by urban middle class men who were concerned about boys. They were concerned about white boys who they saw as not getting enough outdoor adventure and the kind of manly experiences they would need to be in the minds of these adults, the nation's leaders for the next generation. They were worried about the effects of urbanization, and they were nostalgic for an earlier day when more boys had grown up in rural places. So this really began in the late 19th century, mostly in the 1880s onward, very small groups of boys. But quickly the YMCA movement became involved in it. And by the turn of the century, the movement started really ramping up. And ramping up, not only because more YMCA camps were founded, but because more different organizations got involved and, and more groups of American adults thought this camp idea would be great for my kids too. You've got small numbers of women leading groups of girls out into the wilderness and saying this would be great for girls as well. They also need outdoor adventures. In the early 20th century, you got a whole bunch of new movements, the boy Scouts, the girl Scouts, the campfire girls, and they all quickly start sending children out into the wilderness as well.

[Jaclyn Hill]

Okay, so you write in your book that, quote, this triple nostalgia for the American past, for camp community, and for individual childhood experience is critical to understanding why camps have figured so influentially in American culture and, and in former campers lives. I'd love for you to talk about that a little bit more. How so?

[Nina Volato]

Camps were a place where children learned nostalgia. And when they had a chance, many of those former children sent their own kids to camp. So this became a kind of a nostalgic cultural practice that for many adults reminded them of, of often the first time that they had an adventure away from their parents, away from their families.

[Jaclyn Hill]

It's interesting, we asked our listeners to call in with their camp stories. And so many people met their partners at summer camp.

[Nina Volato]

Hi, my name is Nina Volato.

[Leslie Paris]

Summer camp was the best thing that ever happened to me. I met my husband and some lifelong.

[Nina Volato]

Friends, and I'm not the only one.

[Leslie Paris]

That that happened to. My sister in law and brother in.

[Nina Volato]

Law also met at camp.

[Jaclyn Hill]

Hi, my name is Tiffany Andrew. I grew up going to summer camp ever since I was seven and then all throughout college, every summer. I then worked at that summer camp. And that is where I met my husband. And we then got married at that same summer camp. Are these listeners, you know, special? Are they the lucky ones? Or historically have people made connections that last, you know, a lifetime at camp?

[Nina Volato]

Well, I'd say they're lucky, but they're not exceptional. Since the late 40s, early 50s, a lot more camps have been co ed. Prior to that, there were camps that had a boys camp and a girls camp at the same lake, sometimes owned by the same people with some degree of socializing.

[Jaclyn Hill]

Camp is so specific. How did you choose this as an academic subject?

[Nina Volato]

I knew that I wanted to work on American childhood. So one of the things that I look at in my book is how camps illuminate the ways in which childhood was transformed.

[Jaclyn Hill]

I imagine that changes at summer camp also reflect changes in American childhood overall. I'd love to hear in broad strokes about some of those changes. How have we seen camp, and therefore childhood change over time?

[Nina Volato]

One of the main changes that I look at is the rise of the idea of protected childhood. That childhood should be a time apart, that children should be protected from the adult world. Some of the working class kids at the turn of the 20th century who attended school summer camps had never been on a vacation outside of the city. They went on vacations before their parents went on vacations.

[Jaclyn Hill]

I feel like nowadays we keep hearing about how important it is for kids to get away from their screens. Camp is probably one of the ways to do that, right?

[Nina Volato]

Yes. But some of the same kinds of concerns that adults at summer camps have had were expressed in different ways a century ago. But there were concerns even then that modern culture was hard on kids and that they needed some kind of break. They were very concerned about kids reading comic books in their bunk or showing up with silk stockings.

[Jaclyn Hill]

Oh, the scandal of it all. Many camps have become quite exclusive and expensive and tough to pull off for parents and kids. Cluttered schedules. Have camps always been big business?

[Nina Volato]

Originally, camps were not big business. There were a limited number of elite private camps, and increasingly there were organizational camps, charitable camps. Those camps were not hoping to pull in a large profit.

[Jaclyn Hill]

Leslie, I'm curious if you have any favorite depictions of sleepaway camp in pop culture, like, what's your go to moment?

[Nina Volato]

I always think of the Simpsons episode Camp. Krusty. Bart and Lisa are sent to a camp that ostensibly is run by the local clown, Krusty the Clown, but actually really isn't. It's been franchised and the kids have a horrible time. The counselors are cruel. And finally, Krusty appears and makes amends when he realizes what's going on.

[Leslie Paris]

Well, I'm going to make it all up to you.

[Nina Volato]

I'm going to show you kids the.

[Leslie Paris]

Time of your life.

[Nina Volato]

But camps appear in a lot of modern American popular culture because I think this really gets back to this place of camps as spaces of adventure and opportunity for children and for young adults, because some of these Movies are really focused on the counselors and the staff that these are spaces where young adults and kids can have adventures that they wouldn't have had at home.

[Jaclyn Hill]

All right, Leslie Paris, thank you so much.

[Nina Volato]

Thank you.

[Jaclyn Hill]

Coming up on Explain it to me, Sleepaway camp is a big deal on the big screen. Stay with us. Put us in a box. Go ahead. That just gives us something to break out of. Because the next generation 2025 GMC terrain elevation is raising the standard of what comes standard. As far as expectations go, why meet them when you can shatter them? What we choose to challenge, we challenge completely.

[Nina Volato]

We are professional grade.

[Jaclyn Hill]

Visit gmc.com to learn more. You know that feeling when someone shows up for you just when you need it most?

[Devin Schwartz]

That's what Uber is all about.

[Jaclyn Hill]

Not just a ride or dinner at your door. It's how Uber helps you show up for the moments that matter. Because showing up can turn a tough day around or make a good one even better. Whatever it is, big or small, Uber is on the way, so you can be on yours. Uber on our way. We're back with Explain it to Me. And we're talking about Sleep Away summer camp. Okay, so you're nervous, but you're excited. You've packed your bags. You're ready to write your mom and dad. But let's say you also packed some popcorn. That's because we're talking about the classic genre of summer camp movies. And we're joined by our producer, Devin Schwartz. Hey, Devin.

[Devin Schwartz]

Hey, jq. So we already heard from Leslie Paris, who literally wrote the book on summer camp about the Simpsons Camp Krusty. But as we were working on this episode, our colleagues at Vox decided to share their summer camp movie classics with me. So I wanted to share a few of those with you and with our listeners.

[Jaclyn Hill]

Okay, let's go to camp. Time to fire up that vhs.

[Devin Schwartz]

So first up is another one about a camp that's a bit of a mess. Wet Hot American summer. This 2001 cult classic is a favorite of our Chung, who works with Vox's podcasts.

[Jaclyn Hill]

What's so great about that movie was that it was both a parody of and a loving homage to both summer camp and the summer camp movie genre. It's also got an incredible cast of Janine Garofalo, Paul Rudd, Amy Poehler, Elizabeth Banks, and it was Bradley Cooper's first movie. Andy, have you seen my swimming buddy? I was busy. It's your job to make sure kids don't drown. Wet Hot American Summer. Okay, that is a throwback. So Devin, did you go away to sleepaway camp when you were a kid?

[Devin Schwartz]

Well, jq, like lots of the cast in Wet Hot American Summer, I am Jewish. Probably not a surprise for my last name, Schwartz. And so many of the camps felt a little too Christiany for me.

[Jaclyn Hill]

Mm. Okay. Well, I used to go to this week long thing for church called Sunday school convention, and it was held at a 4H facility, but my parents were the chaperones, so I was not getting too wild there.

[Devin Schwartz]

But unlike David Wayne, who directed the movie, I didn't go to Jewish camp either. But after college, I did work at a camp in rural Vermont teaching playwriting and coaching soccer. It was the exact type of camp I probably would have loved as a kid. And on our last night together, the whole staff partied in a bit of a bacchanal and we watched Wet American Summer.

[Jaclyn Hill]

Okay, that is very cool. Wasn't there a movie about theater camp not too long ago?

[Devin Schwartz]

Yeah, that's right. So this is a 2023 mockumentary that Maeve Dunnigan from the Dodo, a Vox sister site, absolutely loves.

[Jaclyn Hill]

As someone who went to theater camp every summer as a kid and treated our production of Seussical as if it were Shakespeare, I could really relate to.

[Nina Volato]

The cartoonish levels of sincerity with which.

[Jaclyn Hill]

The characters in this movie approach children's theater.

[Devin Schwartz]

I'm not going to sugarcoat it emotionally, physically, and spiritually. This is our most complicated piece we've ever tried to do. You guys are so talented.

[Jaclyn Hill]

So unbelievable. This will break you.

[Nina Volato]

This will fully destroy you.

[Devin Schwartz]

Congratulations on being the most talented kids at camp.

[Jaclyn Hill]

You practically feel like you're there highlighting your lines and twitching your jazz hands right alongside them. Oh, my God. Jazz hands. That takes me back to show choir. And a good box step.

[Devin Schwartz]

Absolutely. And what's so fun is the stars of theater camp actually went to theater camp together back in the day.

[Jaclyn Hill]

I imagine a lot of filmmakers went to some kind of theater or performing arts camp, so it kind of falls in line with the stories they'd want to tell.

[Devin Schwartz]

Exactly. Write what you know and all of that. And I'm not sure if that's the case with the 2003 film Camp, but it's also set at a performing arts camp. Fox's culture writer Constance Grady brought this one up not because it's great cinema per se, but because of a shy, awkward camper played by a very young Anna Kendrick, who finally breaks out of her shell at the end of the movie.

[Nina Volato]

That's when she sings Ladies who Lunch from Sondheim's company. And she absolutely blows the rest of the movie out of the water.

[Jaclyn Hill]

Let's hear it for the ladies who lunch.

[Nina Volato]

Everybody rise.

[Jaclyn Hill]

Right.

[Nina Volato]

The story goes that Sondheim saw her do it and he went, she has great teeth.

[Jaclyn Hill]

Okay, listen, there are weirder compliments that you could get, but I can really picture that moment of, you know, blossoming, of growing up and showing out. And that seems like a hallmark of these camp movies. So Leslie Paris told us earlier about how nostalgia and sleepaway camp, they're such big things. Did anyone bring that up with you?

[Devin Schwartz]

Big time. A lot of people brought up the nostalgia piece. So Carrie Keeter works with Vox's brand partnerships team, and she recommends the 1993 film Indian Summer.

[Leslie Paris]

Oh, I want to be a kid again.

[Jaclyn Hill]

Indian Summer.

[Leslie Paris]

It has feelings of nostalgia.

[Jaclyn Hill]

It's heartfelt.

[Leslie Paris]

It brings together friends that have known each other from childhood through adulthood. And that is truly the meaning of camp.

[Jaclyn Hill]

Oh, I think we got a future camp director in our midst.

[Devin Schwartz]

Yes, very much. Could be. But of course, not everything is seen with rose colored lenses because, you know, JQ camp isn't always safe.

[Jaclyn Hill]

Not safe? What do you mean by that?

[Devin Schwartz]

Well, you see, nostalgia for sleepaway camp, it has a scarier side to it. Horror films set at camp.

[Jaclyn Hill]

Ooh, sleep Spooky. Okay.

[Devin Schwartz]

Yes. See, it's a whole cottage industry at this point. You're out there in the woods, isolated. You don't know if those sounds at night are animals or something far more dangerous. Peter Balinon Rosen is my fellow producer on Today. Explained and explained it to me. Well, he shouted out The Friday the 13th movies which center around Camp Crystal Lake.

[Jaclyn Hill]

We've got horny teenagers getting killed. We've got the story of the lengths family will go for each other.

[Devin Schwartz]

And across this summer camp setting, we've got great jump scares. This is a movie that could only happen at summer camp.

[Jaclyn Hill]

Oh, no, thank you. I do not want to get slashed at camp.

[Devin Schwartz]

I know I'm not big on slasher films myself, but this one seems to have staying power in the culture. The first one came out in 1980, and the 12 or so films are all based on the mythology of a camper turned villain named Jason Voorhees. He drowned in the lake after his fellow campers threw him in. They were kind of bullying him, the counselors. They weren't paying attention because they were off having sex.

[Jaclyn Hill]

Oh. And we all know that sex is the number one. No, no. In horror films, right?

[Devin Schwartz]

Yeah. That's a common trope. If you find Love. Or at least lust. You're next on the list.

[Jaclyn Hill]

Okay, the summer camp watch list is getting pretty long, and I admit that I am almost out of popcorn. Let's do okay, sure thing.

[Devin Schwartz]

Let's hear about Goosebumps from Anna North. She writes the Kids Today newsletter for vox.

[Leslie Paris]

Growing up, my brother and I loved the goosebumps books by R.L. stine and the TV show. And a big favorite of ours was called welcome to Camp Nightmare, in which a whole bunch of really scary stuff happens at a sleepaway camp.

[Jaclyn Hill]

Why is it just us?

[Nina Volato]

Why doesn't anybody else think anything happened?

[Jaclyn Hill]

I gotta find a phone, call my parents, tell them to come pick me up and get me out of this hole. I don't know that I would sign up for that camp. What kind of scary stuff happens in that one?

[Devin Schwartz]

Sorry, jq no spoilers on this one. You're gonna have to get some more popcorn and add it to your camp watch list.

[Jaclyn Hill]

Ugh. Okay, fine.

[Devin Schwartz]

But as it turns out, Anna herself isn't the biggest fan of sleepaway camp.

[Leslie Paris]

You definitely do not need to send your kids to sleepaway camp. If you don't go to sleepaway camp, you will be fine as a person.

[Jaclyn Hill]

Okay, I definitely want to hear more about that. And luckily for us, after the break, more from Anna on summer alternatives to sleepaway camp. Stay with us. Are you still quoting 30 year old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days? Do you think Discover isn't widely accepted? If this sounds like you, you're stuck in the past. Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. And every time you make a purchase with your card, you automatically earn cash back. Welcome to the Now It Pays to Discover. Learn more at discover.com credit card based on the February 2024 Nielsen report.

[Devin Schwartz]

Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Now I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills. But it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment.

[Jaclyn Hill]

Of $45 for a 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month. Required new customer offer for first 3 months only 6 speed slow after 35 gigabytes of networks busy taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com before the break, we heard from my colleague Anna North. She's a senior correspondent at Vox and she covers Family life. She has children of her own, so she needs to think about how kids spend their summer. And I wanted her theory about why camp looms so large in our collective imagination.

[Leslie Paris]

It's this place where. Where there are no parents, which is really fun and exciting for kids to think about and also scary for kids to think about. And those are just really important ingredients of a good story.

[Jaclyn Hill]

Oh, that's so interesting. So how old are your little ones?

[Leslie Paris]

Yeah, my kids are seven and two and a half. So they are definitely too young for sleepaway camp.

[Jaclyn Hill]

What do their summers usually look like?

[Leslie Paris]

So my little one still goes to daycare, and daycare is actually open most of the summer, so he will continue doing what he does. And my big kid is in school, so he is doing a combo of Lego camp and then also craft camp. And we'll travel a little bit in there too.

[Jaclyn Hill]

Okay. Is sleepaway camp worth it?

[Leslie Paris]

You know, not every kid does sleepaway camp. It can be expensive. It's really not for younger kids. You know, kid has to be a certain level of maturity to be able to handle it. When you talk about camp generally for the summer, though, just practically speaking, a lot of families need camp because school is out and parents are still working. This is like this huge conundrum that families face because, like, kids are not in school 365 days a year. But American parents like what we get. You know, two weeks vacation. It's not very much. So it's a real mismatch.

[Jaclyn Hill]

I think one of the issues we've heard about is this intense planning that goes into kids summers these days. Like, it's complicated, it's competitive, expensive. Can you talk about that pressure a little bit? That seems like a lot.

[Leslie Paris]

Yeah, absolutely. So it's a huge source of pressure for families. Kids typically are off for a couple months every summer. People start signing up for summer camps in January. And that sounds like it's, you know, these type A parents, you know, being really extra. But actually, you know, a lot of camps will fill up really early, and that includes camps that might be more affordable. So, you know, you might actually have to scramble to get your kid into a camp that, you know, one might be a good fit and two is not gonna, like, break your budget. And, you know, it's obviously about making sure that kids have a fun summer, but it's also just making sure that they're taken care of and that they're having an okay time while the parents are doing what they need to do.

[Jaclyn Hill]

Okay, so summer sleepaway camp is not an option for everyone. Some people don't wanna do it. What are other ways for kids to spend their summer that you would recommend?

[Leslie Paris]

Yeah, I mean, I would say probably most kids do a day camp at some point. Certainly like, you know, here in New York, especially among kids like my kids age, that's the most common option. A lot of them are expensive, but there are more affordable options. The YMCA camps tend to be more affordable than some of the others. Some camps have sliding scales. So, you know, depending on income, you might be able to pay less. It's also worth checking out. A lot of school districts have summer schools and, or summer schools that are like a little bit more fun and a little bit more camp. Like I know New York City has a program called Summer Rising that a lot of kids are doing. So these are all options too. Like there's definitely stuff out there at a variety of price points. It's just a matter of the parents having to kind of do the legwork, unfortunately of looking it all up.

[Jaclyn Hill]

What do you make of like letting the summer be kind of chill? Like I think of it. And you know, my parents, they would do like, okay, here's a nature day camp or like, you know, we'll mount you around some different vacation Bible schools like in the evening. But a lot of my summer was spent kind of like lounging, eating ice cream, watching VH1 and reading like chapter books. I wonder, like, do kids, like, is it okay for kids to get that unstructured time? Cause I know kids thrive on routine.

[Leslie Paris]

Yeah. So I have a lot of feelings about this. So every summer I feel like there will be an op ed or a big viral essay about how you should let your kids be bored during the summer. Recently the New York Times actually had a story about families that are choosing like not to send their kids to camp and just kind of letting them hang around the house. I think there's a couple things to think about there. One is like the parents work schedule. If you have a lot of flexibility and you can say, okay, I'm going to work from home for the whole summer, or we're going to take off a bunch of time and I'm going to travel with my kids, that's great. And that really changes the flexibility of your summer. If all the adults in your family are working full time jobs in the summer, it just becomes a lot harder, especially at younger ages.

[Jaclyn Hill]

Is there anything going on policy wise to help like kids with summer?

[Leslie Paris]

I mean, unfortunately things are a little bit going in the opposite direction. I guess I will Say that, you know, individual cities, I think, have been moving to try to offer more both after school and like, school break camp options. So I think Los Angeles has, like, been looking at this, but at the federal level, President Trump has actually proposed to zero out federal funding for after school and summer learning. That's something that a lot of folks that are involved in after school and school break learning are really concerned about because there is federal money that goes to support some of these programs and some after school programs run their own camps. So obviously anything that harms after school programs is a problem for camps too.

[Jaclyn Hill]

Yeah. I'm curious about your thoughts on year round school. You know, this is something that's been piloted in Philadelphia, for example. Could that help parents with sort of that summer stress for families and kids?

[Leslie Paris]

You know, there have been longer school days and school years piloted. It's not necessarily a slam dunk in terms of being better for instruction. It's not necessarily true that kids would learn better if they went to school all the time. They certainly don't want to do that. Kids do need time to play. They need time to relax.

[Jaclyn Hill]

When I look back on childhood, there's this certain feeling that summer has, and I even have it now as an adult. There's still this pressure of like, this has to be the best summer ever. And I can only imagine having a family and feeling the pressure to give your kid the best summer ever. How do parents navigate that? Like, why is there so much pressure? Why can't we just relax and enjoy the warmer weather?

[Leslie Paris]

I do think something to remember is that, like, your kids are making their own memories and you don't have to curate everything. And even in a camp that might not be their most favorite, they're still probably doing some fun stuff. But I guess as a parent, I just, like, try to accept that sometimes the summer is just gonna be stressful and that's how it's gonna be. Like traveling with kids, especially young kids, is stressful. It's not really a vacation. It's important to see your family. It's positive. They will have good memories. Do I enjoy being on the plane with a toddler? I don't. I don't enjoy it. I don't think he enjoys it either. It's okay.

[Jaclyn Hill]

I know their little ears. I'm like, aw, you don't know to yawn yet. It helps. All right, Anna north, thank you so much for explaining this to us.

[Leslie Paris]

Thank you so much. It's great to be.

[Jaclyn Hill]

Okay. Before we let you go, we want to ask you something. We have a series coming up on wellness, why we spend so much money on it these days, what wellness even means. And we want your thoughts. How are you thinking of caring for your mind and your body these days? Give us a call at 1-800-618-8545. This episode was produced by Devin Schwartz. It was edited by Miranda Kennedy, fact checking by Sarah Schweppe and engineering by Matthew Billy. I'm your host, Jonathan Hill. Thank you so much for listening. Bye.