Super mad about Superman

Summary

Detailed Summary of "Today, Explained" Podcast Episode: "Super mad about Superman"

Release Date: July 18, 2025
Host/Author: Vox
Hosts: Sean Rameswaram and Noel King
Episode: "Super mad about Superman"

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1. Introduction and Overview

In the episode titled "Super mad about Superman," hosts Sean Rameswaram and Noel King delve into the heated debates surrounding the latest Superman movie. The discussion revolves around the film's reception, controversies ignited by its portrayal of Superman as an immigrant, and the broader cultural implications of these interpretations.

2. Controversy Surrounding the New Superman Movie

The episode kicks off with Sean Rameswaram announcing the newfound popularity of the Superman movie:

Sean Ram [00:00]: "The number one movie in the country is Superman. It might be the number one movie in the world."

However, this success is juxtaposed with significant backlash from various public figures and commentators who criticize the film's political undertones.

3. Reactions from Public Figures

Several notable personalities have expressed their displeasure with the movie's direction:

• Kellyanne Conway criticizes the film for deviating from Superman's traditional values:

  Siddhant Adlakka [00:20]: "The guy who stars as Superman had the audacity to say, instead of fighting for truth, liberty, and great values in America, he refused to say the last part."

• Ben Shapiro also voices his discontent:

  Sean Ram [00:30]: "Ben Shapiro is mad about it."

• Dean Cain, the actor famously known for portraying Superman, shares his concerns:

  Dean Cain [00:38]: "Even TV. Superman."

These reactions highlight a growing divide among audiences and commentators regarding the film's thematic choices.

4. Director James Gunn's Intentions and Misinterpretations

The core of the controversy stems from director James Gunn's portrayal of Superman as an immigrant, a statement that has been met with intense scrutiny and backlash:

Sean Ram [02:00]: "Now, imagine they live in your phone. Say hey to Experian, your big financial friend."
(Note: This timestamp includes an advertisement and is thus skipped in content summary.)

Later in the conversation, Sean discusses with Siddhant Adlakka about the immediate negative reactions following Gunn's statements.

Grant Morrison provides context on why these comments have become flashpoints in cultural debates:

Grant Morrison [02:29]: "Where Lois Lane is talking about the political complexities of the conflict between the fictional countries Bohavia and Jharanpur."

5. The Political Interpretations of Superman's Immigrant Status

The discussion delves deep into the implications of labeling Superman as an immigrant:

Dean Cain [03:00]: "MAGA today is going nuts. What do you have to say to maga?"
Sean Ram [03:17]: "I don't have anything. I think this movie's for everybody."

Grant Morrison elaborates on the metaphorical and literal interpretations of Superman's alien origins:

Grant Morrison [04:09]: "Superman is a man whose motto for the longest time has been truth, justice, and the American way."
Dean Cain [07:18]: "If anyone unbothered to look at the history of Superman, they'd see that he was always an immigrant created by immigrants."

The conversation highlights how the term "immigrant" has become highly charged, leading to polarized interpretations of the film's message.

6. Historical Evolution of Superman's Character

Dean Cain provides an extensive overview of Superman's origins and his evolution over nearly a century:

Dean Cain [14:10]: "Superman was created by two teenagers, Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster, who'd met at school. They were sons of immigrants, European immigrants, Jewish boys."

He traces Superman's transformation from an activist fighting for workers' rights to a symbol of American patriotism during wartime, and further into the complexities of modern storytelling:

Dean Cain [20:05]: "Superman was a do-gooder. He was here to help people. He'd come from a distant world, but he saw the only use for power and strength was to help the downtrodden and help the oppressed."

This historical perspective underscores the character's adaptability and enduring relevance in reflecting societal values and struggles.

7. The Timelessness and Cultural Significance of Superman

Concluding the discussion, Grant Morrison and Dean Cain emphasize Superman's lasting impact and symbolic significance:

Grant Morrison [25:17]: "Superman is more real than I am. He's more real than most of us. He will outlive us all and he'll still have meaning to people in the future."

Dean Cain echoes this sentiment by comparing Superman to other timeless characters like Sherlock Holmes, highlighting his foundational role in shaping the superhero genre.

8. Conclusion

The episode effectively navigates the complexities surrounding the new Superman movie, illustrating how a single creative decision can reignite longstanding debates about cultural representation, political symbolism, and the essence of iconic characters. Through insightful conversations and historical context, "Today, Explained" offers listeners a comprehensive understanding of why Superman remains a pivotal figure in contemporary discourse.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Sean Ram [00:00]: "The number one movie in the country is Superman. It might be the number one movie in the world."
• Siddhant Adlakka [00:20]: "The guy who stars as Superman had the audacity to say, instead of fighting for truth, liberty, and great values in America, he refused to say the last part."
• Dean Cain [03:00]: "MAGA today is going nuts. What do you have to say to maga?"
• Grant Morrison [04:09]: "Superman is a man whose motto for the longest time has been truth, justice, and the American way."
• Dean Cain [14:10]: "Superman was created by two teenagers, Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster, who'd met at school. They were sons of immigrants, European immigrants, Jewish boys."
• Grant Morrison [25:17]: "Superman is more real than I am. He's more real than most of us. He will outlive us all and he'll still have meaning to people in the future."

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This summary was meticulously crafted by Laura Bullard, fact-checked by Amina Al Saadi, edited by Patrick Boyd, and produced by Rebecca Ibarra.

Transcript

[Sean Ram]

The number one movie in the country is Superman. It might be the number one movie in the world.

[Siddhant Adlakka]

Are you being serious right now?

[Dean Cain]

Yeah.

[Sean Ram]

But not everybody is loving it.

[Siddhant Adlakka]

Recently, you've come under a lot of fire for what some might.

[Sean Ram]

It's a lot of fire.

[Siddhant Adlakka]

It's a lot.

[Sean Ram]

Kellyanne Conway is mad about it.

[Siddhant Adlakka]

The guy who stars as Superman had the audacity to say, instead of fighting for truth, liberty, and great values in America, he refused to say the last part.

[Sean Ram]

Ben Shapiro is mad about it.

[Grant Morrison]

The reality that Hollywood is so far.

[Siddhant Adlakka]

To the left that they cannot take.

[Grant Morrison]

A core piece of Americana and just say, it's about America.

[Sean Ram]

Even tv. Superman. Dean Cain is concerned.

[Grant Morrison]

Look, don't try and make it all woke and crazy.

[Sean Ram]

What, if anything, is woke and crazy about the new Superman movie? Coming up on Dean Cain explained.

[Siddhant Adlakka]

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[Experian Representative]

Look up in the sky. It's a bird.

[Sean Ram]

It's a plane today, explained Sean Ram's firm. I'm here with Siddhant Adlakka, who's a film critic who recently wrote about the new Superman movie for Vulture. Siddhant, I went and saw the Superman movie last night, and it was a totally nice summer blockbuster about doing the right thing and caring about other people. And it's gonna heal our country, right?

[Grant Morrison]

Obviously, there's nothing controversial about it whatsoever, and we can all just take a bre, relax and move on.

[Sean Ram]

Oh, perfect. I don't know what we're even going to talk about then. What should we talk about?

[Dean Cain]

Great.

[Grant Morrison]

Thank you for having me. I'll see you folks next time. No. As with everything nowadays, it has become a flashpoint in a nonsensical, divisive culture war. And If I'm not mistaken, the series of events that led to what we're going to talk about is the director of Superman, James Gunn, simply stating, you know, yeah, Superman is an immigrant, which is a thing we've known since 1938.

[Sean Ram]

You said it's an immigrant story.

[Dean Cain]

It's a political movie.

[Sean Ram]

MAGA today is going nuts. What do you have to say to maga? I don't have anything. I think this movie's for everybody. I don't have anything to say to anybody. Like, I'm not. I'm not here to judge people, you know. You know, I think this is a movie about kindness, and I think that's something everyone can relate to.

[Grant Morrison]

If you're even remotely familiar with Superman, none of that should be surprising to you.

[Sean Ram]

Dude's an alien, right?

[Grant Morrison]

He's an alien. He was born on Krypton, which is very, very, very far away. Very far away from the U.S. border.

[Sean Ram]

Like, even farther than Venezuela.

[Grant Morrison]

Slightly farther than Venezuela. I'd have to check my maps. But regardless of that, I think speaking of it in this technical way is sort of seeding ground to the ridiculousness of the conversation in the first place. Because in response to James Gunn saying, you know, he's an immigrant, which is to say Superman, not James Gunn, in response to James Gunn saying that Superman is an immigrant, you had all these right wing talking heads, and not just like podcasters, you had people on Fox News bringing up how this movie was going to be, you know, politically divisive and shoving this, that and the other down our throats.

[Sean Ram]

Hollywood just needs to figure out that.

[Dean Cain]

People don't want woke movies or woke directors.

[Sean Ram]

They just want entertainment.

[Siddhant Adlakka]

We don't go to the movie theater to be lectured to and to have somebody throw their ideology onto us. So he' now trying to make the.

[Grant Morrison]

Case effectively that Superman is kind of an illegal immigrant.

[Siddhant Adlakka]

You know what it says on his cape?

[Dean Cain]

Ms. 13.

[Sean Ram]

Wow.

[Grant Morrison]

And it just speaks to how charged even a phrase like immigrant has become.

[Sean Ram]

Do any of these pundits making noise on Fox News or various podcasts have specific gripes with this movie? Or is it just all he likes immigrants?

[Grant Morrison]

I think a lot of them just haven't seen it. But a lot of what we do see in the movie does speak to our current political moment in more interesting ways. Like, you know, the idea of dropping people into legal limbo and stripping them of their rights. So there's a scene where Superman is captured by Lex Luthor and his cronies, and there's a brief exchange about how Due process and the expectation of basic civil rights does not apply to him because he is an alien. You know, used in the very literal way of him being not from Earth, but also at the same time in this charged metaphorical sense in that, you know, he is an alien immigrant. And then he is subsequently placed in this sort of interdimensional prison where not only there are literal aliens being held, but also political opponents of Lex Luthor. So there is a lot in there that is distinctly political. And I think, ironically, that's not what the right wing seems to be glomming onto.

[Sean Ram]

They're just mad about a statement a guy made in an interview.

[Grant Morrison]

Yeah. And some of what people are upset at is the perception that the film has an anti Israel or pro Palestine bend. And I think it can certainly be read that way. Some subplots of it. I don't think the film has a distinct or coherent ideology when it comes to actual, concrete, real world geopolitical events. But at the same time, it is. It's, you know, Superman is a fable for children and it's going to break down anything complex into something simple. And if the simplest version of that idea is, hey, the big militaristic country is bullying the small defenseless country, and that's wrong and you should help people. And if you're offended by the simplest version of that idea that a five year old can understand, that's more of a personal problem.

[Sean Ram]

Has anyone involved with this movie come out and talked about the intention of the politics of this movie? I guess we can't say this movie is apolitical because it does feel like it is trying to say something. I think that thing is, don't kill people. Be nice. But I can't be sure.

[Grant Morrison]

Yeah, I believe James Gunn has said in an interview that when he was writing the geopolitical aspect of this movie, the conflict in Gaza was not on his mind. But I think regardless of the intent, what seems to be a much more interesting conversation is the fact that so many people are reading into it a parallel to Israel and Palestine.

[Dean Cain]

Without a doubt, that is genuinely the.

[Grant Morrison]

Most pro Palestine I have seen a.

[Dean Cain]

Mainstream film ever be.

[Sean Ram]

Oh, that was good.

[Dean Cain]

Superman truly was for the people.

[Sean Ram]

Even if James Gunn came out and swore on his mother's life that this was not an analog to Israel, Palestine, they're just, it's.

[Dean Cain]

It's lying.

[Grant Morrison]

And I think that speaks to the way this particular issue has taken over our mainstream consciousness. A few years ago, if they'd seen this exact movie, they may not have had that same reaction. Whereas now that's one of the first things people think about. And I don't think the film has a, you know, a coherent ideology around Zionism or something like that. I think it's just, you know, big militaristic bully takes on small, weak country.

[Sean Ram]

People might be going to see a movie like this to sort of forget for maybe two hours about Israel and Gaza and Russia and Ukraine and, I don't know, the president of the United States, whatever it might be. Is the fact that this movie might not be a complete escape from those news stories, those crises, deterring people from seeing it?

[Grant Morrison]

I can't speak to what any one individual might feel about why they might or might not want to see this movie. But at the same time, Superman is a character that's been around almost a century, and he has such a distinct place in American pop culture that I have to question, you know, unless you're completely unfamiliar with the character, you've never heard of him, or what are you expecting from a Superman movie? A character whose motto for the longest.

[Experian Representative]

Time has been truth, justice and the American way.

[Grant Morrison]

You know, he comes saddled with political baggage whether you like it or not. So there is going to be escapism, but only to a degree, because the reason a character like Superman exists is to, you know, whether it's for adults or for children, to confront questions about doing what is ostensibly right. That's the function of Superman, you know, as a character. His function is to, I suppose, simplify moral questions we might think of as too complex to address in a single sentence. You know, this even comes up early on in the movie.

[Siddhant Adlakka]

Recently, you've come under a lot of fire for what some might.

[Sean Ram]

It's a lot of fire.

[Siddhant Adlakka]

It's a lot.

[Grant Morrison]

Where Lois Lane is talking about the political complexities of the conflict between the fictional countries Bohavia and Jharanpur.

[Siddhant Adlakka]

Today the secretary of defense said he was gonna look into your actions. That's funny.

[Grant Morrison]

My actions and Superman's whole outlook on it is, no, I have to save people. I have to, you know, do the right thing and protect people. That's all that matters.

[Sean Ram]

I stopped a war.

[Grant Morrison]

And whether he's talking about a complex conflict in the Middle east or he's talking about saving a cat from a tree, it is going to make you think about the way you approach the world. So I don't think it's as simple as, you know, a movie entirely removing you from reality versus confronting it. I think it's, you know, it's a Superman movie at the end of the day and it will have a certain relationship to reality.

[Sean Ram]

Siddhant Adlaka has written a few pieces about Superman for Vulture, but the one most germane to our conversation today is titled Superman was always an Immigrant. Since it seems like people need a reminder of who this character has always been, we're gonna ask the person a lot of Superman super fans say wrote the best Superman comic ever when we return on Today. Expl.

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[Grant Morrison]

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[Dean Cain]

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[Siddhant Adlakka]

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[Dean Cain]

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[Sean Ram]

Who's got you today? It's flame.

[Experian Representative]

I can't believe it. I just.

[Sean Ram]

Grant Morrison grew up on the west coast of Scotland right next to an American nuclear base.

[Dean Cain]

My parents were anti nuclear activists. You know, my father was a World War II soldier who became a peacenik and so my big fear in the world was the atom bomb and I kind of associated it with the Americans. But the Americans Also brought the comics.

[Sean Ram]

Comic books changed Grant's life.

[Dean Cain]

The whole idea for me was that the atom bomb terrified me. Then I discovered Superman, and I suddenly realized Superman's a better idea than the atom bomb. The atom bomb and Superman both started out as ideas, and I like this one better. And although I knew no real Superman was coming to save me from an actual atom bomb, that metaphorically really solved a lot of problems for my head when I was a little kid. So that. That those are the primal roots for me, and they're quite deep. So, yeah, getting a chance to do that character sitting here overlooking that same stretch of water, you know, where we did the protest and associates with my father and with the bomb and so many things in comic books as well. To write All Star Superman kind of defy the forces of entropy. Because I feel that if anything survives in my career, it will be that one book.

[Sean Ram]

All Star Superman is widely regarded by the Superman heads out there as the goat. The greatest Superman comic series ever written ever. In, like, almost 90 years of Superman. We asked Grant who the Superman was that he created in that series.

[Dean Cain]

I think, well, we went for an older Superman. Our basic idea was that what if Superman was dying and he had a year to live? And basically, it's a part of Lex Luthor's scheme. He sends Superman to the sun, and the solar radiation overcharges Superman's cells, so they begin to decay and die. So it's basically Superman's dying of cancer. No one can repair the sun but me, Lois. I'm turning into pure energy. And the idea of, what would this man do in the last 12 months of his life? To leave the Earth a better place than he found it?

[Sean Ram]

Were you surprised to find out that. That James Gunn wanted to relaunch this character and relaunch an entire cinematic universe, as they come to call it now with. With your story about a dying Superman.

[Dean Cain]

Yeah, Well, I mean, I think what. James didn't necessarily take the dying part of it because I've seen the movie now and obviously went in a very different direction. His is a younger Superman, but I think he certainly took the character as we decided to refine it, and he saw something in that that he could work with. The idea of, you know, instead of Superman having flaws, let's present a fictional character who doesn't have our flaws. You know, he has problems of his own. He still can't get the girl. He still works for a boss in an office. But he's Superman. You know, he's a kind of every man whose life happens at a much higher scale than us. So I think James Gunn took that notion of Superman. You know, he's very much us, but played on a larger, more operatic stage. He's got an unruly dog crypto, but his unruly dog can laser his own dinner and cook a steak. His unruly dog can fly through buildings, but he's still dealing with an unruly dog crypto. Ow.

[Grant Morrison]

Ow.

[Experian Representative]

Stop it.

[Dean Cain]

Stop. Sit, sit. Stay for me. What I loved about that is, rather than previous attempts, people have sort of said, what would Superman be like if he was in the real world? Which to me is an absurd question. He'll never be in the real world. The only existence Superman has in the real world is as a comic book or a movie character. And that's where he's most useful and most functional as far as I'm concerned. So again, I think James took that notion of let's not ask ourselves the ridiculous question, what would it be like if Superman was real? Because the answer to that is usually he would be super corrupt. And you get things like the character Homelander from the Boys TV show, who's a kind of evil Superman who's representative of all the worst elements of America. You people should be thanking Christ that I am who and what I am, because you need me. But we thought that the original Superman is the best and most useful. He's a fictional character. He's a metaphor, he's an allegory. He stands for everything that is good in us.

[Sean Ram]

It sounds like there have been at least some iterations of this character throughout his nearly, you know, century of existence. From your dying version to this ideal version, to this all powerful version. But I believe Superman even started as a bit of a tough guy, like a head basher and I think maybe even a left wing revolutionary. Can you tell us about like the non Kryptonian origins of this character? Like how he came to be on Earth?

[Dean Cain]

Well, he was. He arrived in Cleveland, Ohio. He was created by two teenagers, Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster, who'd met at school. And Jerry was the writer and Joe was the artist, and they wanted to work for newspapers. Newspaper syndication was the kind of place to go for cartoons back then. And they were working on this notion called the Superman. The original version was an evil bald guy who eventually became Lex Luthor in the Superman story. But after a few tries, they hit on this fabulous notion of let's give him a wrestling costume with a cape so that we can track his movement across panels and make him very colorful so that he's, you know, he's memorable.

[Experian Representative]

Kent steps into the storeroom, closes the door behind him, and in a few brief seconds has made the transformation from the mild mannered behavior, respectable reporter, to the red caped blue costumed figure of Superman.

[Dean Cain]

And then the greatest addition to the design was to put his monogram on his chest so that the character's entire identity is summed up in this really very simple advertising motif that people can remember. And people can also wear and partake in that sense of being Superman. So, yeah, it was created by two young kids who were the sons of immigrants, European immigrants, Jewish boys. And this was their vision of the.

[Experian Representative]

Superman who can bend steel in his bare hands, race a speeding bullet to its target, and who mingles with ordinary men disguised as Clark Kent.

[Dean Cain]

He was a do gooder. He was here to help people. He'd come from a distant world, but he saw the only use for power and strength was to help the downtrodden and help the oppressed. So, yeah, as you say, those early issues of Action Comics depict a Superman whose very much he's an outlaw. You know, he just goes after corrupt union bosses, he goes after mine owners, he goes after politicians who, you know, corrupt. So he's that person. And he's very. He's quite scary. You know, what I always say is Superman later was seen as a kind of messianic figure of hope, which I don't really like, because I think what he is, he's a fighter, he's a scrapper. He gets into fights on behalf of the little guy and he gets bloodied up and he gets up again and he's shooting with a tank shell, he gets up again. And that's the character that he was. And so as you see through the years, that that changed quite radically. You know, the socialist figure of the early years hit 1942, and suddenly it was war. And Superman became incredibly patriotic. And that's where the truth, justice and the American way thing first appears.

[Experian Representative]

Anyone who tries to tell you that a man can't be a good American because he's a Catholic or a Jew, a Protestant or whatever, you can be pretty sure he's a rotten American himself. Not only a rotten American, but a rotten human being.

[Dean Cain]

Then in the 50s, Superman changes again completely. You're dealing with guys coming home from the war and dealing with domestication and living in suburbia. So Superman becomes a family drama, like I said, but on a titanic scale. He has friends from the future who visit and cause trouble. He has A cousin who survived Krypton. He has a dog, he has a monkey, has all of this stuff. And they added a lot of lore. So Superman then, to me, was probably at his peak. But he was representative of masculinity post war, trying to adjust to a world of relatives and being not necessarily married, but very much those stories were obsessed with the relationship stuff with Lois, you know. So it was that in the 60s, he becomes cosmic seeker. In the 60s again, he almost goes back to his roots. And we have stories where he's fighting for Native American land rights and he's up against polluters. And very much back to the activist Superman. And so it goes. In the 80s, he's a yuppie. In the 90s, they kill him in order to make it interesting then bring it back very much as a soap opera set around the Daily Planet and into the 2000s. You get the work that I did.

[Sean Ram]

It's funny to hear you, you know, lay out this history in which Superman, at one point, is something of a socialist warrior. Because all of these pundits who are mad about James Gunn saying that Superman's an immigrant if they really knew the history here, there's so much more they could be mad about.

[Dean Cain]

Absolutely. As you say, if anyone unbothered to look at the history of Superman, they'd see that he was always an immigrant created by immigrants. He represented that experience, but he was assimilated. I mean, the whole thing was he was an American. He'd been raised by American parents.

[Experian Representative]

A baby. It's a lie.

[Grant Morrison]

How could it be?

[Dean Cain]

That was very important as well. And I think the combination of these two qualities is what maybe drives people mad because they want it to be either one thing or another. But Superman's trying to embody everyone.

[Sean Ram]

The thing that we talk about the first half of the show is that, you know, depending on how tuned into the news you are, you can see a lot of what's going on in the world today in this movie. But, of course, this movie wasn't made this week. It was made, you know, a year ago. The meetings about this movie probably started five years ago. Do you think there's something about, like, the nature of Superman that makes him timeless?

[Dean Cain]

Oh, I definitely believe that. I mean, as I've said many times, I mean, we're talking about the history of Superman which goes back to 1938. Superman has outlived his creators. He's also outlived the people who took over from his creators and the next generation of the people who took over from his creators. As I often say Superman is more real than I am. He's more real than most of us. He will outlive us all and he'll still have meaning to people in the future and because he looks like nothing else people have even forgotten that that was Based on early 20th century circus strongman in wrestling outfits People have forgotten that so now it's the template for the superhero this ideal of the superhero and he's got because he was the first he got the best name the most primal name So I absolutely think Superman will persist like Sherlock Holmes and characters like that way beyond even the next few generations as long as the world stays together and there's such a thing as culture I think there'll still be a Superman is recognizable to us.

[Sean Ram]

Grant Morrison writes comic books from the most excellent order of the British Empire all star Superman is the place to start Laura Bullard ordered it today she fact checked today's show Amina Al Saadi edited Patrick Boyd mixed and Rebecca Ibarra produced this episode of today explained.