Noel King (2:40)

West End Girl tells quite a tale. What is the tale that it is telling?

Coleman Spildy (2:46)

So this is an album about a woman who is really excited to be in this marriage. She's been swept off her feet by this handsome man and she's moving to New York to start her new life with him. We hear that in the opening title track of the album, West End Girl, which is sort of a sing songy introduction to the album.

Bella Freud (3:06)

We've moved to New York. We found a nice little rental near a sweet little school. Now I'm looking at houses with four or five floors and you found us a brownstone, said you want it? It's Yours.

Coleman Spildy (3:18)

At the end of this opening track, we hear the recording of a one sided FaceTime conversation between the two of them where Lily is sort of talking to the. On the other end of the phone, who seems to be asking for, maybe it's an open marriage, maybe he's confessing infidelity, maybe he's asking for a certain kind of marriage arrangement.

Bella Freud (3:39)

I mean, it doesn't make me feel great.

Coleman Spildy (3:42)

Then she is sort of thrust into this anxiety spiral, which a lot of listeners can probably relate to if they've ever been in any kind of a torrid relationship. You have the follow up track, the second track on the album, Ruminating this frenetic drum and bass song. She's remembering this line that he told her over the phone. The end of the song, she just repeats what a fucking line. Over and over and over again. And then through the rest of the first half of the album, she's throwing sort of back to back songs like Tennis and Madeline, which Tennis is all about coming home to find that her partner may have been texting another woman.

Bella Freud (4:33)

How I write your taste.

Coleman Spildy (4:36)

She's asking over and over, who is Madeline?

Bella Freud (4:38)

And who the fuck is Madeline?

Coleman Spildy (4:39)

Or who the fuck is Madeline? The very next song is answering that question. So it's sort of like a call and response that really invites the listener to have a lot of fun with it.

Noel King (4:53)

What are we supposed to be feeling by the time we finish?

Coleman Spildy (4:56)

It sort of flips a little bit to go a bit more introspective, thinking about, you know, what can I do to be part of this relationship as he wants it to be? What can I do to make him happy? What sacrifices can I make? So then you have songs like Non Monogamummy, where Lily is kind of wrestling with her traditional ideas of motherhood. And then being a mother who is also non monogamous, which doesn't quite fit for her. And then you have the sort of coda of the album where she is finding some contentment with it and just accepting that this is someone who's never going to change and this is someone who didn't have her best priority in mind and someone who prioritized themselves over the love of their marriage.

Bella Freud (5:44)

It's not me, it's you.

Noel King (5:49)

All right, so there are two types of reactions to this album. One of them is the offline reaction that is your sister and your sister in law texting you. You have to listen to this album. And then there is what happened on Al Gore's Internet. What was the reaction online?

Coleman Spildy (6:04)

There was a couple There were a couple different reactions. A man who's ever been confused about.

David Metzer (6:09)

What kind of information your girlfriend's asking.

Noel King (6:11)

For when you tell her, you know.

David Metzer (6:12)

Somebody broke up this, this is what she wants.

Bella Freud (6:16)

And at 3:54 on June 11, I spotted a pube on your antidepressants. Knew she must be a Virgo.

Coleman Spildy (6:25)

People were starting to look at it as a morality tale. So you had this initial reaction that was listening to the album and vilifying David Harbour and all of this.

David Metzer (6:35)

The girl was a shell of herself.

Noel King (6:37)

She was like the ghost of Lily.

David Metzer (6:39)

Allen in that relationship. People like this should not marry another famous person. You want some non famous person who's going to worship the ground that you walk on and never be more successful than you. Calm down, you are. In Stranger Things, you had people who.

Coleman Spildy (6:56)

Were calling for boycotts of the last season of Stranger Things, people who said that he should never be working in a Marvel movie again, and people who were really equating, you know, personal romantic problems with sort of illegal sins and making infidelity into something that should be punishable by a law or by firing, which is just not how we work as a society. People were digging up things about their relationship. People were really interested in finding out more because it has that sort of car crash element to the album. People were looking at their shared Architectural Digest home tour of their Brooklyn brownstone. People were analyzing the way that video started with David Harbour opening the door and kind of making a joke about the cameraperson being the other woman.

David Metzer (7:44)

Last time I was single and I was living on the Lower east side, I have a family now, kids. I mean, this is so embarrassing. You look good, though.

Coleman Spildy (7:53)

And then you also had people really digging into the sort of like, West End girl of it all and looking at how David Harper responded to Lily's part in her first play. And they also dug up an old Instagram story from Lily about flowers that he had sent her pre opening night. He wrote on the note, these are bad luck flowers, because if you get reviewed well in this play, you will get all kinds of awards and I will be miserable. Signed, your loving husband. People were really able to take these things and feed into them because they were all public, as it was. And so it helps proliferate that narrative that Lily was already spinning. Then there was another layer to that, which I find almost even more fascinating was that people, as the album became more popular over its release weekend, were looking at it and then suddenly digging up things about not just David and Lily's marriage, but Lily Allen. Herself. They dug up an old Twitter row that she had with Azealia Banks.

Noel King (8:59)

What Alan tweeted at her neck, which was a photo of her husband's at the time in blackface. When I saw that in my comments, that's unforgivable.

David Metzer (9:09)

So Lily Allen is not a good person.

Coleman Spildy (9:12)

They dug up confessions from Lily Allen saying that she saying that much of her last record, no Shame, was about her infidelity with her husband. So it's kind of this idea that people are running to make the artist behind things in or to tear them down as much as possible.

Noel King (9:32)

Do people like this album because it's a good album? Do people like it because people love a train wreck? Or do people like it because in 2025 it is saying something much deeper than what's on the surface?

Coleman Spildy (9:46)

As a critic, I would have to say it's a little bit of everything. It's funny because it's an interesting album. You know, the music itself may not be the most unconventional or the most left field in its production, but it does. It is filled with earwormy hooks and interesting lyrics and fun phrases that kind of keep you coming back to it and really drill into your head. Which is really part of the genius of making a breakup album like this is you want to keep returning to it no matter how sad it is. And also, I think people really do love the train wreck of it because there is a sort of rubbernecking sensationalism of people love to look at a car crash. I think that people are really eager to tear people down in the public sphere when they seem to have any wrongdoing that they've done. And some people also like to dig in and uncover stuff and proliferate it online and on social media and add to the narrative themselves. So it all becomes kind of a bit of a game. But it all also works in Lily Allen's favor, too.

Noel King (11:01)

Coleman Spildy. He's a critic@salon.com Coming up, 50 years of breakup albums and the culture that created them.

Apple Mac Announcer (11:24)

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Noel King (11:55)

For today's show comes from Upwork. You're the CEO of your business and the CFO and customer service. That's a small business business. Maybe you need some support. Upwork says that with Upwork Business plus, they can bring you support in the form of top quality freelancers and fast instant access to the top 1% of talent on Upwork in fields such as marketing, design, AI. So much more. Upwork says that when you use Upwork Business plus, you can source and vet candidates for skill and reliability. They can also send you a curated shortlist of proven expert talent so that you can delegate with confidence. Don't spin your wheels right now. When you spend a thousand dollars on Upwork Business plus, you'll get $500 in credit. Go to Upwork.comSave now. You can claim this offer before December 31, 2025 and again, that's Upwork.comSave scale smarter with top talent and 500 in credit terms and conditions to apply Hi.

Bella Freud (12:57)

This is Bella Freud. Each week on Fashion Neurosis, I invite guests from the world of fashion, art, sport, music and literature to lie on my couch and explore the connection between fashion and identity. This week on the show, I welcome the presenter and model Alexa Chung. To me, it's now funny to dress.

Coleman Spildy (13:20)

In a more kind of kinky way.

Bella Freud (13:23)

Because I think I'm more associated with like dungarees and smock tops and a slightly more sexless, tomboyish vibe. Find Fashion Neurosis on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

David Metzer (13:40)

Today. Explained My name is David Metzer. I'm a music historian. I teach at the University of British Columbia, and I'm a scholar of love songs, including breakup songs and breakup albums. So I actually wrote a book on ballads, which are essentially love songs. And with love songs you gotta deal with the falling in love and having love fall apart around you.

Noel King (14:03)

Tell me how you would describe the current moment when it comes to breakup albums.

David Metzer (14:07)

I think really a lot of it has to do with our social media age in which we live in in which any personal news becomes a source of fascination and you have to weigh in it. You have to disclose aspects of so that's what I think. A lot of artists are using breakup albums in Part four. It's a way of getting their side of the story out there and making a statement. And it's obviously much richer than a tweet or an Instagram post or something like that.

Noel King (14:33)

The breakup album is nothing new. Where does it begin?

David Metzer (14:37)

The earliest one I've found for breakup albums is a Nat King Cole album, I Don't Want to Be hurt anymore from 1964.

Bella Freud (14:46)

I don't want to Be Hurt Anymore.

David Metzer (14:54)

And he remains hurt throughout the whole album. To be honest, I'm alone.

Bella Freud (15:01)

How can I face the dawn? Didn't you Even laugh and leave me crying there.

David Metzer (15:08)

It doesn't let up. Let's just put it that way. And then it's really in the 1970s that this. That the breakup album takes off.

Bella Freud (15:15)

Just before our love got lost, you said I am as constant as a northern star nest.

David Metzer (15:22)

A classic example is Joni Mitchell's Blue from 1971, in which she ruminates on her relationship with Graham Nash, which had just ended her relationship with James Taylor. Even looks back to her first marriage there.

Bella Freud (15:35)

I could drink a case of you Just pretend I never have fun.

David Metzer (15:44)

But then the breakup album takes all these strange directions. In the 1970s, one is, in country music, you have Willie Nelson putting an album called Phases and Stages, which is a album which, on side A presents the woman's side of the breakup.

Bella Freud (16:02)

And before you wake up, I'll be gone.

David Metzer (16:08)

On side B, the man's side of the breakup.

Bella Freud (16:11)

Well, it's a bloody merry morning, baby Left me without warning Sometime in the.

David Metzer (16:16)

Night and then I guess I'll have.

Bella Freud (16:19)

To say this album is dedicated to you.

David Metzer (16:24)

This has to be the strangest breakup album of all time. Marvin Gaye put an album called Hear my dear. And this album is just really about his divorce. And just like how painful that divorce has been. And the album is dedicated to her.

Bella Freud (16:41)

I don't think I'll have any regrets, baby.

David Metzer (16:46)

And it's a double album, and it goes the strangest places. Like there's one kind of Star wars fantasy about them hooking up in three centuries from now in outer space.

Bella Freud (16:57)

Light years ahead, you and me gon be getting down on a space bed.

David Metzer (17:07)

And then we just hit this really rich period in the 2000s where we have had albums from Beyonce, Becky with the good hair, Olivia Rodrigo sat forever.

Bella Freud (17:18)

Now I drive alone past your street.

David Metzer (17:21)

Casey Musgraves I hate you and I love you. Adele.

Bella Freud (17:25)

Go easy. Help me, baby.

David Metzer (17:31)

And what's very interesting about this period with albums is that we had both sides of the breakup giving us albums. So there's the Jason Isabel album that came out recently.

Bella Freud (17:41)

I'm sorry, the love songs all mean different things today.

David Metzer (17:46)

Then it was responded to by his ex, Amanda Shires.

Bella Freud (17:50)

I remember cleaning up after you and.

David Metzer (17:53)

Too many nights alone where we have the two sides. Also, that happened with Casey Musgrave's Star Crossed, which is about her breakup with Rustin Kelly.

Bella Freud (18:02)

Two lovers ripped right at the scene.

David Metzer (18:07)

Who released his own breakup album.

Bella Freud (18:09)

After that, my marriage ended and I moved up north to men.

David Metzer (18:15)

So it's fast and furious with giving your side of the story these days.

Noel King (18:21)

We started the show talking about Lily Allen, and there is a sense in that album, a very vivid sense that Lily Allen wants to win. She's like, I'm gonna tell you every damn thing this man did to me. You know who he is?

David Metzer (18:35)

We do.

Noel King (18:35)

Is. Is releasing a breakup album, into the Wild into people's ears. Is it about winning the breakup?

David Metzer (18:43)

Well, obviously, there are stakes in these breakups. That's why we have the other partners putting out albums. People view it as a war. And even Marvin Gaye back in Hear, my dear, for him, it's definitely, you know, getting even in all sorts of ways with. With the Lily Allen album. It definitely is. I mean, one of the last lines in it is, it's not me, it's you. Hmm.

Noel King (19:05)

Everyone said, oh, this album came out right as David Harbour was doing press for Stranger Things. And it was like a way of sticking it to him. Has the way in which artists release these albums changed at all in the last, like, 50 or so years?

David Metzer (19:19)

Yeah, we never saw anything like this before. Ooh. I think Nat King Cole was happy in love. He just decided to put out a sad album. Jodi Mitchell, she's ever so kind to her exes in that album.

Bella Freud (19:31)

He put me at ease and he loved me so naughty. Made me weak in the knees.

David Metzer (19:38)

Except for, again, for Marvin Gay's 2 album. Bitterness.

Bella Freud (19:41)

You can leave, but it's going to cost you.

David Metzer (19:46)

I haven't seen anything like this before, and I think it really is a reflection of the social media age, where maybe even tweets, whatever post, you know, they don't have the ring that they once used to or the weight that they once used to. So you got to put out something bigger. And the album is that something bigger.

Noel King (20:04)

What are kind of the necessary ingredients for a breakup album?

David Metzer (20:08)

Yeah, it has to be reflection to some degree. It can't just be all this bitter spew of bitterness. And you have to offer the listener something broader to think about than just like, that guy screwed me over. And let me tell you some details. You have to offer them something broader. And again, not to treat Joni Mitchell as. Not to put her on a pedestal, although she should be.

Noel King (20:28)

Yeah.

David Metzer (20:30)

But she had a line which I think summed it all up. She wanted to make it clear to listeners it's not really about me. It's actually about you, the listener. So I have this one quotation I'll just read, which I think is beautiful. The trick is, if you listen to that music and you see me, you're not getting anything out of it. If you listen to that music and you see yourself, it will probably make you cry and you'll learn something about yourself. And now you're getting something out of it. Joanie baby, Joni baby. And it's so right. It's like, don't look for the details. You should have some beautiful things to reflect upon and really things that can open you up. And one of the ways that breakup albums in the 1970s differ from breakup albums today is the type of language that is used in the 1970s albums. It's all very much about suggestion. No lover is named or even really pointed to in very specific ways. Rather, it's just really that the listener knows that there has been a breakup and that's enough. And so they have. You think about this breakup in these broad, universal terms and to open yourself up to these rich moments of emotional reflection.

Noel King (21:48)

How important are the endings of the breakup albums? What do they need to do?

David Metzer (21:55)

I think one of the fascinating things about breakup albums is what the last song is, because where's this person gonna be after pouring our heart for like 45 minutes? And where are we going to be as listeners after hearing all of this? And usually it's three options with these. The first is when I'm going to call still bitter that you are still upset about this relationship and you have nothing but bitterness to pour out. The second one is figuring it out. You're starting to put the pieces together and you're starting to say, yeah, maybe I was part of the problem. And the third option is moving on where, yeah, you're gonna start to take your first steps past this breakup. And moving on involves pulling yourself together. You can, you know, now you have a good idea what happened and you're ready for something new or in some cases, falling in love again. And everyone takes a different step. So with Lily Allen, it's a combination of still better and figuring it all out.

Bella Freud (22:55)

It is what it is. Your mess.

David Metzer (23:02)

With the Nat King Cole album that I mentioned earlier, it's like I'm all cried out.

Bella Freud (23:06)

There isn't a tear left to cry.

David Metzer (23:10)

But, you know, I believe she's gonna walk through the door once again. And when she does, I'm gonna be ready to love her all again, and.

Bella Freud (23:17)

I won't have to cry.

David Metzer (23:20)

And then the Jason Isabel album has this beautiful conclusion to it. The final song, after going through all this self examination and a little condemnation of the partner, ends with this beautiful song called Wind behind the Rain.

Bella Freud (23:37)

If you leave me now, I'LL just come running after you. I'll be the wind behind the Rain.

David Metzer (23:44)

Which is a song he actually wrote for his brother's wedding. It was to be the first dance song for his brother's wedding. It's all just about the beauty of commitment.

Bella Freud (23:52)

I'll always see you like you are right now.

David Metzer (23:56)

So to go through that psychological storm and end with something hopeful like that is truly beautiful.

Bella Freud (24:01)

I love you like the morning loves the afternoon.

David Metzer (24:05)

But I really love the Casey Musgraves album because it does get bitter at times, but then it has this beautiful close to it. It's actually a song she did not write. It's called Gracias a la Vida. It was written by Vila Tapara, a Chilean singer in the 1960s, and it's really just about all we should be grateful for in life.

Bella Freud (24:23)

Gracias J?

David Metzer (24:25)

La Vita Life will present us with so many wonderful things. The beauty of nature, friendship and good lovers. These are all part of the beauty of life, and we should be just thankful for them even when things go bad. I haven't heard that ending before in a breakup album, but I love it because even during like, like breakups I've been in, I think about, like, I really do have a lot to be quite grateful for in life. And that will ground you emotionally and psychologically. I'll give Casey Musgraves the award for the best conclusion to a breakup album.

Noel King (25:29)

David Metzer He's a scholar of love songs. Nice work if you can get it. University of British Columbia Peter Balanon Rosen produced today's show. Miranda Kendi edited, Laura Bullard checks the facts and Patrick Boyd is our engineer. Our team in order of height, Avishai Artsy, Hari Muagdi, Miles Brian, Denise Guerra, Danielle Hewitt, Kelly Wessinger, Ariana Espudu, Adrian Lilly, Sean Ramasfirm, Asted Herndon, Amina El Saadi and Jolie Myers. We use music by Breakmaster. Cylinder. Today Explained is distributed by wnyc. The show is part of the Vox media Podcast Network. Podcasts.voxmedia.com Listen to this podcast and so many more ad free. Go to Vox.com members to sign up. There is a sale on now y', all. I'm Noel King. It's Today Explained.

Bella Freud (26:14)

Sam.