The Art of the Steal

Summary

Podcast Summary: Today, Explained — “The Art of the Steal”

Date: February 9, 2026
Hosts: Estad Herndon, Sean Rameswaram (not featured this episode)
Guests: Josh Dawsey (Wall Street Journal), Marshall Cohen (CNN)

---

Episode Overview

This episode of Today, Explained dives deep into the continued fallout from Donald Trump’s obsession with the 2020 presidential election. The hosts and guests break down Trump’s ongoing efforts, from new federal investigations into the 2020 results to adapting those tactics for the looming 2026 midterms. The conversation deals directly with the impact on American institutions, political enemies, and election integrity—unpacking both the mechanisms of power and the psychology that drives Trump’s relentless focus on the “stolen” election narrative.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s Relentless Focus on 2020

• Despite being back in the White House and having won in 2024, Trump and his administration are still fixated on disproving his 2020 loss.
• Tulsi Gabbard, now Director of National Intelligence, is leading a government-wide effort to “prove” Trump won in 2020, including ballot reviews and federal law enforcement involvement.
• Trump has tasked multiple government officials (including the Attorney General and a previously unsuccessful lawyer from 2020) to devote resources to finding “fraud.”

Notable Quote:

“He’s put the power of the government into researching his sort of false claims from 2020. And a lot of that, I think, is now just emerging publicly, but has been happening behind the scenes for many months.”
— Josh Dawsey [03:54]

---

2. Repeat Investigations in Georgia

• Georgia’s Fulton County is again at the center, with repeated ballot reviews, recounts, and now a federal raid for ballots—despite state certification and a lack of evidence of widespread fraud.
• Tulsi Gabbard arranged a phone call between President Trump and FBI agents during a ballot raid—a highly unusual and potentially intimidating move.

Notable Quote:

“It’s very unusual to put the president directly on the phone with FBI line agents...they’re certainly sending a remarkable message.”
— Josh Dawsey [06:18]

---

3. Pursuing Political Enemies

• Trump’s DOJ has sought to bring legal action against prominent critics and investigators such as James Comey, Tish James, Adam Schiff, and Jack Smith.
• These actions are being widely interpreted as political revenge against those who challenged Trump’s narratives or authority.

Memorable Moment:

“There are people left and right who he views sort of his proverbial enemies, who he’s looking to see face the wrath of the Department of Justice.”
— Josh Dawsey [08:09]

---

4. The Psychology of the “Stolen” Election Obsession

• Trump’s need to validate himself as a winner drives his enduring fixation on 2020.
• He's motivated by ego and the desire to erase the one major defeat in his political career, seeking to control the historical narrative.

Notable Quote:

“I had to win it. I needed it for my own ego. I would have had a bad ego... Now I really have a big ego, though.”
— Donald Trump, as quoted by Josh Dawsey [09:12]

• No obvious “Mike Pence” figures in the current administration willing to oppose or question Trump’s focus on 2020; aides may quietly disagree, but there’s no indication of outright dissent.

Exchange:

“Is there anyone...who’s willing to go into the Oval Office, sit down with him and say, we’re wasting our time on 2020?...I don’t think that’s happen[ed].”
— Josh Dawsey [11:03]

---

5. Political Fallout & Strategic Risks

• Trump’s backward-looking narrative about 2020 is widely seen—even among Republicans—as unhelpful for the GOP’s chances in the 2026 midterms.
• Despite pushback, Trump is rarely swayed by party strategy, often pursuing his own agenda regardless of advice.

Notable Quote:

“No one would say, you know, what really helps us win in 2026? A relentless focus on the 2020 election...And frankly, I don’t see that changing here.”
— Josh Dawsey [12:11]

---

6. The 2026 Midterms — Scaling Up Election Interference Tactics

• Trump’s focus is shifting from re-litigating 2020 to actively shaping the upcoming midterm landscape using lessons from past failures.
• Announced plans to nationalize election administration in “15 states with big fraud problems”—a move experts call unconstitutional and practically unworkable.

Notable Quote:

"The Republicans ought to nationalize the voting. He said 15 states. He didn't say which ones...that’s really not constitutional or even practically viable, but it shows you where his mind's at."
— Marshall Cohen [17:11]

• Democrats are alarmed, strategizing about potential federal interventions, including the threat of using ICE agents as intimidation—tactics that could suppress turnout.
• Republicans largely not alarmed, and in some cases support Trump’s “election integrity” initiatives like voter roll purges and ID requirements.

---

7. DOJ Lawsuits & Aggressive Federal Tactics

• The DOJ is suing numerous states to gain access to private voter registration data, facing strong pushback and legal defeats from state-level officials.
• Reports surfaced of the DOJ offering to reduce ICE activity in exchange for access to voter rolls—a move called “bananas” and likened to a ransom demand by election officials.

Notable Quote:

“Attorney General Pam Bondi really made waves when she sent a letter to officials in Minnesota, basically offering a quid pro quo that the administration would pull back ICE from Minnesota in exchange for the voter rolls from Minnesota...most election officials and nonpartisan experts said that is bananas, you know, like a hostage.”
— Marshall Cohen [22:16]

---

8. Public Concern Over Election Integrity

• The threat is not just in direct action, but also in creating an environment of intimidation—potentially discouraging marginal voters from participating.
• Despite high-profile fears, nonpartisan election experts still express confidence in the resilience and integrity of the American electoral system.

Notable Quotes:

"He doesn't actually have to do all this stuff to make an impact. He can just threaten it or bring it up because it is scary."
— Marshall Cohen [20:27]

“Despite all the noise, despite all the fears, despite what you've been told at home, that our system is garbage. It's actually quite resilient...There are many safeguards...You should rest assured that your vote will be counted and will be counted fairly despite all the drama.”
— Marshall Cohen [25:19]

---

Memorable Quotes and Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Trump’s refusal to let go of 2020:
  “He’s never given up on the idea that he could convince people that he won, and he’s still working at it.”
  — Josh Dawsey [10:18]

• On intimidation in real time:
  “You have people wearing their passports around their necks when they go to the grocery store out of fear of being detained. A lot of people are kind of scared right now.”
  — Estad Herndon [19:58]

• Historical perspective on Trump and election denial:
  “Donald Trump claimed the Iowa caucuses were rigged when he lost to Ted Cruz...He claimed that the popular vote was rigged...He tried to overturn the 2020 election, which led to a violent insurrection. So this should be taken seriously.”
  — Marshall Cohen [24:30–25:07]

---

Structural Timeline (Selected Timestamps)

• [02:32] — Dawsey explains Trump’s current White House efforts to prove 2020 fraud.
• [05:56] — Discussion of Tulsi Gabbard’s direct involvement with FBI in Georgia.
• [08:09] — Trump’s DOJ targeting perceived enemies.
• [11:27] — Consequences for Republicans and the party; is anyone willing to dissent?
• [16:18] — Cohen: How Trump’s 2020 fixation is shaping his approach to 2026.
• [17:09] — Nationalizing elections rhetoric surfaces.
• [18:26] — Democrats bracing for federal intervention, ICE threats, and voter intimidation.
• [21:20] — DOJ lawsuits over voter rolls; Minnesota “ransom note” episode.
• [24:15]–[25:19] — Final take: Experts affirm election system resilience amid fears.

---

Takeaways

• Trump’s obsession with “undoing” 2020 continues to guide federal priorities, not just as backward-looking but reshaped into aggressive efforts to influence or “protect” upcoming elections.
• The tactics now include using the federal government’s power in unprecedented ways—weaponizing agencies, legal tools, and public fear to shape voter behavior.
• The institutional resilience of elections is lauded by career experts, even as practitioners warn that democratic norms remain under threat from abuse of power, coordinated intimidation efforts, and the repetition of disinformation.
• The episode serves as both a real-time explainer and a warning, drawing a direct line from Trump’s earliest claims of “rigged” elections (2016 Iowa caucuses, 2016 and 2020 presidential contests) to efforts underway in 2026.

---

For listeners new to these issues, this episode offers a clear, story-driven breakdown of how Trump’s election denial strategy is evolving into direct federal action, why it resonates with some in his party, and what could be at stake for future American elections.

Transcript

[Estad Herndon]

Late last week, something rare happened.

[Pepsi Sponsor/Announcer]

There's growing outrage to a video that President Trump posted last night, video that included a racist clip of the Obamas depicted as monkeys.

[Marshall Cohen]

This is totally unacceptable. The president should take it down and.

[Estad Herndon]

Apologize, praying it was fake because it's.

[Josh Dawsey]

The most racist thing I've seen out.

[Marshall Cohen]

Of this White House.

[Josh Dawsey]

The president should remove it.

[Estad Herndon]

Those are Republicans. That never happens. But the video wasn't just racist. It it was filled with conspiracy theories about the 2020 election and not a peep from Republicans on that. Trump's 2020 obsession isn't a thing of the past. It's driving new investigations and shaping how the White House approaches the midterm elections later this year. That's coming up on Today. Explained from V.

[Pepsi Sponsor/Announcer]

This show is brought to you by Pepsi. In 2025, Pepsi brought back a classic, the Pepsi Challenge, where in blind taste tests, participants were given two zero sugar colas and had to choose which taste they preferred. 66% of participants chose Pepsi zero sugar over Coca Cola zero sugar and Pepsi zero sugar won 100% of markets where Pepsi conducted the Pepsi Challenge. Even in Coke's hometown of Atlanta, it's the Pepsi paradox, the idea that once labels and bias disappear, you may be surprised by what you actually prefer. And in the case of the Pepsi paradox, cola drinkers prefer the taste of Pepsi zero sugar. Go out and try Pepsi zero sugar today. You deserve taste. You deserve Pepsi.

[Marshall Cohen]

This week on the gray Area, we're.

[Estad Herndon]

Talking about what unites us. We've kind of created a society now.

[Marshall Cohen]

Where really the monoculture is just for.

[Estad Herndon]

Football and Taylor Swift. Those are really the only things that.

[Pepsi Sponsor/Announcer]

Are like that now.

[Estad Herndon]

And I'm not being sarcastic. It really is the case. So what does that say about American culture?

[Marshall Cohen]

Listen to the gray area with me, Sean Iling.

[Estad Herndon]

New episodes available everywhere. Today. I'm Esteed Herndon. Josh Dawsey covers Trump for the Wall Street Journal. I asked him how Trump is keeping the dream of 2020 alive in his current White House.

[Josh Dawsey]

Well, I think more than anything, he's put Tulsi Gabbard, his director of national intelligence, in charge of this. He's basically tasked her with trying to prove that he won the election in 2020. So she's reviewing ballots across the country.

[Pepsi Sponsor/Announcer]

The federal government has seized the voting ballots of thousands of people in a raid of the Fulton County, Georgia election office.

[Marshall Cohen]

The the president remains focused on the 2020 election more than five years ago. The election he lost to Joe Biden. Georgia says they had multiple recounts. They have nothing to Hide.

[Josh Dawsey]

She's been in contact with FBI officials. The other day after that raid in Georgia, the New York Times reported that she put Trump on the phone directly with the FBI officials who did the raid. And so you have sort of a whole of government approach. He also brought in a lawyer named Kurt olson. In the 2020 election, Trump hired Olson to try and push his claims of fraud across the country. And they were not successful. But earlier, well, last year, now we're in 2026. And last year he hired Olson as a special government employee to come into the White House, work directly for White House Chief of Staff Susie Wiles, and try and prove election fraud. He also has told folks at doj, including Attorney General Pam Bondi and Deputy Attorney Todd Blanche, that he wants them focused on this. So when he's returned to office, he's put the power of the government into researching his sort of false claims from 2020. And a lot of that, I think, is now just emerging publicly, but has been happening behind the scenes for many months.

[Estad Herndon]

Haven't many of these allegations of fraud already been investigated? I remember when Trump was out of office in the Biden years, this being a focus of so much litigation and just so much conservative activism in general.

[Marshall Cohen]

President Trump and have filed a number.

[Pepsi Sponsor/Announcer]

Of lawsuits against key battleground states. President Trump suffering yet another stinging legal setback tonight. A federal appeals court tossing out his election challenge in Pennsylvania.

[Estad Herndon]

What are they possibly hoping to find that hasn't already been found or scrubbed and nothing was found?

[Josh Dawsey]

Well, they've certainly counted the ballots over and over and over in Fulton County. And, you know, Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger and others have certified the election, have studied it time and time again.

[Marshall Cohen]

I'm a passionate conservative and as I've said before, I'm a proud Trump supporter working as an engineer throughout my life. I live by the motto that numbers don't lie. As Secretary of State, I believe that the numbers that we have presented today are correct.

[Josh Dawsey]

They say, you know, that Trump lost in 2020 and there was no wide scale fraud. He hired his own consultants in 2020, his own lawyers, his own consulting firms, his own researchers. They couldn't find evidence for it. So I guess the real answer to your question is that is, I don't know, looking for in Georgia. I mean, it's sort of too early to say what the. We haven't seen the unsealed, you know, affidavit. We haven't seen any sort of court papers that show how they were able to get a court approved search to go into an area like that, a voting area. But, you know, everything else seemingly has been looked at many, many times since the 2020 election.

[Estad Herndon]

In this Fulton county episode, you said that Tulsi Gabbard arranged a call between the FBI officials on the ground and President Trump as the investigation was unfolding. Now, obviously that seems unusual. At the minimum, is this anything other than an effort of intimidation? Like, it kind of sounds like, like what was actually the purpose of said call?

[Josh Dawsey]

Well, one of the things we've seen time and time again stat in this administration are cabinet officials, including maybe most not Tulsi Gabbard, who leads dni, trying to get in the president's good graces, trying to carry out what the president wants, trying to keep him happy. And what we saw here, I mean, first of all, it's really unusual for the Director of National Intelligence to be on the scene as the FBI searches a court ordered or court approved search. I don't know that we've ever seen dni, the director standing over in a hat and watching and sort of supervising or overseeing or whatever she was doing there. But that's a very unusual b, it's very unusual to put the president directly on the phone with FBI line agents. I mean, they're certainly sending a remarkable message that you put the President of the United States on the phone with FBI agents carrying out a search in Georgia trying to prove election fraud, which is his, you know, one of his top priorities right now.

[Estad Herndon]

What are the other kind of 20, 20 investigations that the president had launched? Because as you said, it seems like kind of a full court effort.

[Josh Dawsey]

I think you've also seen him go after a number of or have his Department of Justice go after a number of folks who have investigated him. You know, James Comey, they tried to bring charges against him, failed in Virginia.

[Pepsi Sponsor/Announcer]

Comey was charged with giving false statements to Congress back in 2020 and obstruction of justice. He pleaded not guilty.

[Marshall Cohen]

My family and I have known for years that there are costs to standing up to Donald Trump.

[Josh Dawsey]

Tis James, they tried to bring charges against her.

[Marshall Cohen]

James, who has also pleaded not guilty, was charged with bank fraud and making.

[Pepsi Sponsor/Announcer]

False statements to a this justice system.

[Estad Herndon]

Which has been used as a tool.

[Pepsi Sponsor/Announcer]

Of revenge against those individuals who simply.

[Estad Herndon]

Did their job and who stood up.

[Pepsi Sponsor/Announcer]

For the rule of law.

[Josh Dawsey]

You also seem wanted to go after Adam Schiff who investigated him over Russia. I'll tell you what, I think Adam Schiff is one of the lowest of the low. I would love to see him brought to justice. You see him saying that Jack Smith, the former special counsel, deserves to be charged. But what they did was criminal. Deranged. Jack Smith, in my opinion, is a criminal. There are people left and right who he views sort of his proverbial enemies, who he's looking to see face the wrath of the Department of Justice.

[Estad Herndon]

But why is he still obsessed with proving the Biden election to be false? Like, he won in 2024, has virtually erased much of the Biden legacy, has spent much of his first time erasing the Obama legacy before him. Like, he seems to actually get the outcome desires by returning to power himself. Why is it necessary to him to, to. To invalidate the 2020 win?

[Josh Dawsey]

I mean, he said yesterday at the National Prayer Breakfast that he had to come back and win in 2024 for his ego. Get it, get it wasn't easy. You know, they rigged the second election. I had to win it, had to win it. I needed it for my own ego. I would have had a bad ego.

[Estad Herndon]

For the rest of my life.

[Josh Dawsey]

Now I really have a big ego, though. You know, 2020 losing, I think, was a big stain on his ego and his legacy. And he did not want to be viewed as a president who ever lost. Right. I mean, for Trump, there's a relentlessness there. I mean, you see him now, you know, going back again, like, to things that happened in 2016 and 2017 and trying to, you know, get history rewritten. I mean, look what he did on January 6th. I mean, in the aftermath of Jan.6, I think Republicans and Democrats alike viewed it as a dark for the country and saw what really happened and how bad things were. And look how he's changed history over. Maybe not history, but changed how many people see it over the years. You know, since then, he's sort of rewritten his own narrative. 2020 election is the same thing. You know, he's never given up on the idea that he could convince people that he won, and he's still working at it. I mean, Trump is always bending a narrative, always selling the idea of him as a winner, him as all powerful, him as a person who, you know, does not. Does not lose, frankly. And that's what he's doing here.

[Estad Herndon]

I mean, what do we think about the other folks in government when it comes to things like his election denial and consistent conspiracy on this front? Is everyone else on board? Are they willing to be on board just to maintain his favor, or is there a limit? I mean, I guess I'm asking is there a Mike Pence of the second term that might say, hey, we may be going too far here.

[Josh Dawsey]

Do you see one?

[Estad Herndon]

No, I certainly don't. But you know it better than I do.

[Josh Dawsey]

I mean, I think there are people, look, there are people in the White House who certainly think it's not the best use of his time. Right. And they certainly do not love. I think there are elements and folks who work in the White House who do not love spending part of their time on this. But is there anyone who's willing to go into the Oval Office, sit down with him and say, we're wasting our time on 2020? You lost. Let's move on, you won in 2024. I don't think that's happen.

[Estad Herndon]

There has been a lot of evidence within the data and the amount of kind of election deniers, not Dame Trump, who have lost their races, that this does not play well with voters, that although maybe the most ardent parts of the base agree with Donald Trump, there's not necessarily been a winning issue for them. Has there been any concern in the White House that Donald Trump's policy crusade on this front might hurt Republican politics in the midterms here?

[Josh Dawsey]

Certainly. I mean, I think a lot of Republicans believe that the focus on 2020 is not helpful in the midterms. They. You believe a lot of the things he does are not helpful for the midterms. A lot of what's been happening with ICE in Minneapolis.

[Estad Herndon]

Yeah, you're right. One of many.

[Josh Dawsey]

He posted a video on Drew Social that depicted the Obamas as monkeys.

[Estad Herndon]

Yeah.

[Josh Dawsey]

And he took it down a bit ago. But after widespread outrage, I mean, sure. I mean, I think if you talk to most senators, most members of Congress, most operatives across the party, no one would say, you know, what really helps us win in 2026? A relentless focus on the 2020 election. But, you know, Republicans have been trying to tell Trump what they want him to do for years or what's not helpful, quote, unquote. And usually he does basically whatever he wants. And frankly, I don't see that changing here.

[Estad Herndon]

Josh Dawsey, Wall Street Journal. Coming up, Trump's got plans, but they involve influencing the 2026 midterms.

[Pepsi Sponsor/Announcer]

This show is brought to you by Pepsi. Life is full of paradoxes like how getting an answer always leads to more questions or how too many choices can make it impossible to make one. Then there's the Pepsi paradox, the idea that when labels and bias disappear, cola drinkers prefer the taste of Pepsi Zero Sugar over Coca Cola Zero Sugar. In 2025, Pepsi brought back the Pepsi Challenge. In blind taste tests, participants were given two Zero Sugar Colas and asked to choose which taste they preferred. It turned out that 66% of participants chose Pepsi Zero Sugar over Coca Cola Zero Sugar and Pepsi Zero Sugar won 100% of markets where Pepsi conducted the Pepsi Challenge. Even in Coke's hometown of Atlanta, in a world of so many options, it's easy to let other people influence our choices. Instead of asking, what do I like? We start asking, what does everyone else like? But you don't have to make the same decisions as everyone else. Choose what you like. Go out and try Pepsi Zero Sugar today. You deserve taste. You deserve Pepsi. This week on Net Worth and Chill. I'm talking about what happens after you've mastered the basics. How to build wealth that actually lasts for generations. With the top 1% holding nearly a third of the nation's wealth and 98% of them being men, breaking into generational wealth isn't just about getting rich. It's about changing who gets to stay rich. Plus, I'm explaining the great wealth transfer $124 trillion about to change hands over the next 25 years, and what it means for you. I'm answering your questions about calculating your net worth, whether you should rent or buy to build wealth, and how to pass your retirement accounts to your kids without losing them to probate court. Whether you're just getting started or already maxing out your 401k, this episode will show you how to think bigger than just making money today. Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube.com YourRichBFF.

[Marshall Cohen]

Over the last several years, AI companies of all shapes and sizes have been desperately trying to get their hands on every bit of available data to make their models better. This week on the Vergecast we have the story of how Anthropic destroyed hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of books and fed them all to Claude. Plus, we have information on who in tech is in the Epstein files, what's going on with Netflix, whether it's woke, whether it's going to buy Warner Bros. And whether Peloton is going to successfully sell you a treadmill ever again. All that on the Vergecast. Wherever you get podcasts, I'm Marshall Cohen. I'm a senior reporter at cnn, and this year I'm focusing a lot on election integrity and potential attempts by the president or anyone else to interfere in the midterms.

[Estad Herndon]

Well, as we just learned, that makes you a busy man this year. Considering Trump has not let up on his false claims that the 2020 election was stolen, is there some sense that the claims of 2020 election fraud are influencing how he sees the 2026 midterm elections. To this point, what we've talked about has been backward looking, but from what it sounds like with your beat, this is still an act of live ball.

[Marshall Cohen]

I mean, I think you should interpret everything he does this year through the lens of what he tried to do back in 2020. And I think he's very influenced by what he considers his shortcomings in 2020 where he didn't succeed in overturning those results. And I think he doesn't want to get to a place this year where he has to overturn a result. He might try to put his thumb on the scales, use government powers, use federal authorities to try to influence the process.

[Estad Herndon]

What has Trump been saying about the midterms specific to the question of election integrity?

[Marshall Cohen]

Well, I mean, he made a lot of news just a few days ago when he went farther than he's ever gone before. The Republicans should say, we want to take over.

[Josh Dawsey]

We should take over the voting.

[Marshall Cohen]

The voting in at least many 15 places. The Republicans ought to nationalize the voting. He said 15 states. He didn't say which ones. I think we can guess. He said that he was talking about the states that have the big fraud problem, which presumably is a lot of the states that he lost in 2020 that are many of them run by Democratic governors and stuff like that. So that's the big rhetoric, Estad, is that he's been saying that it should be nationalized. That's really not constitutional or even practically viable, but it shows you where his mind's at.

[Josh Dawsey]

If they can't count the votes legally and honestly, then somebody else should take over.

[Pepsi Sponsor/Announcer]

The Constitution says it should be states that administer elections.

[Josh Dawsey]

Mr. President says they can administer the election, but they have to do it honestly.

[Estad Herndon]

Okay. How did Democrats respond to Donald Trump's claims about desire to nationalize the elections? Just give me a sense of the blowback.

[Marshall Cohen]

Well, Democrats pretty swiftly, by and large, came out and said that this is crazy and unconstitutional.

[Josh Dawsey]

Once again, the president's talking no differently than a dictator. Wants elections in America to be as legitimate as elections in countries like Venezuela.

[Marshall Cohen]

But it's so much bigger than this. I was at a conference, national association of Secretaries of state in D.C. they do it every year. But the vibes were completely different this year because all the Democratic secretaries are terrified and strategizing for this potential assault by Trump on the integrity of the midterms. We spoke to a lot of officials. Some of them, they didn't want to tell us what possibilities they were planning on preparing for? Because they said, I don't want to give him any ideas. But some of the things that they did divulge is they're very afraid about possible troop deployments, which we've seen, obviously, in California and Chicago. And they're also very scared about ICE and immigration enforcement agencies possibly being sent maybe at the last minute when it might be too late to stop, but early enough to cause chaos and possibly intimidate or disenfranchise. The Republicans we talk to, by and large, are not afraid. They're not worried. They don't think Trump's going to do anything terrible. They applaud his efforts to clean up the voter rolls. They are supporting his efforts to require voter id. They're supporting his legislative priorities in terms of requiring proof of citizenship for voter registration. It was really the Democrats scared of what Trump might do, and Republicans essentially giving him some political cover.

[Estad Herndon]

You know, obviously, Trump has been willing to use the federal government to his disposal at unprecedented levels. We have mass squadrons of ICE agents in blue cities across the country. You have people wearing their passports around their necks when they go to the grocery store after, out of fear of being detained. A lot of people are kind of scared right now. There might be an air of intimidation that could play into 2026. Is there concern about that? And do we know if that's an explicit strategy from the white.

[Marshall Cohen]

When you talk to nonpartisan election experts, folks that are former election administrators, that is what they bring up. What you just mentioned, that he doesn't actually have to do all this stuff to make an impact. He can just threaten it or bring it up because it is scary. And people might ask themselves, yeah, is it really worth it to go vote for senator? Some senator that I think is a bum, or some member of Congress that I might not even. I might not even remember? Like, what have they done for me lately? Am I gonna go risk getting detained for them to vote for them? Screw that. I could imagine people that is going through people's minds.

[Estad Herndon]

Are there other ways that you think Trump could influence or interfere with the midterms that we haven't covered yet?

[Marshall Cohen]

So a big piece of this. The Justice Department has sued more than a dozen states, many states, for access to their voter rolls. The U.S. department of justice is suing.

[Pepsi Sponsor/Announcer]

Virginia for not sending over its voter registration data.

[Marshall Cohen]

Justice is suing Illinois. The department wants access to the state's.

[Estad Herndon]

Official unedited voter registration.

[Marshall Cohen]

Yesterday, Wisconsin joined the growing list of.

[Estad Herndon]

States being sued by the United States.

[Marshall Cohen]

Department, private data belonging to American citizens that the states are in charge of. The feds think that they have the power to do it, which is why they've gone to court and filed these lawsuits. But so far they've been losing. There have been at least two cases, one in California, one in Oregon, where federal judges have rejected those attempts by the DOJ to get that data. And the states, the Democratic officials say, hell no, we are not giving you this data. It's protected by federal law and state law. I'm just not going to hand that over to them.

[Estad Herndon]

Go jump in the Gulf of Maine again, sir. Pound sand.

[Marshall Cohen]

The Republican officials that we've talked to in the states have said, you know, we're doing a very good job already keeping a very clean voter roll. We've purged all. A lot of people like, you know, basically trying to say, no, no, no, don't. You don't need to do this. We're doing a good job. So they're trying to make the case politely to the administration that, you know, we love the idea of what you're doing, but please let us do it. We don't. We're not so excited to give you the Social Security numbers of our constituents and stuff like that. DOJ is not just in court. They have really ratcheted things up. A few weeks ago, Attorney General Pam Bondi really made waves when she sent a letter to officials in Minnesota, basically offering a quid pro quo that the administration would pull back ICE from Minnesota in exchange for the voter rolls from Minnesota, which, you know, most election officials that we spoke to and nonpartisan experts said that is bananas, you know, like a hostage. I think the Secretary of State there said, I've called it a ransom note, because what do those two things have with each other? You know, clearly it's. It was just a very aggressive wielding of federal power and people are afraid that more, more stuff like that might.

[Estad Herndon]

Be coming soon if the midterms are still nine months away. And I know that means that we're tapped in, but not the average person's tapped in at this point. I get the question every now and from folks who only tangentially follow politics, how worried should they be about the prospect of Trump pre rigging or kind of intimidating his way to victory in the midterm elections? I wanna put that question to you. How legitimate do you think the concern that Donald Trump will soft steal the midterms is?

[Marshall Cohen]

I'll answer in two ways. Number one, everyone should take this seriously, not because people should be conspiracy theorists, but because we've lived through this before, right?

[Estad Herndon]

Yeah.

[Marshall Cohen]

I wouldn't have necessarily said this In 2017, in the first year of Donald Trump's presidency, but we have the benefit of 10 years. Donald Trump claimed the Iowa caucuses were rigged when he lost to Ted Cruz.

[Estad Herndon]

Ted Cruz didn't win Iowa. He stole it. That's why all of these polls were so wrong and why he got far more votes than anticipated. Bad.

[Marshall Cohen]

He claimed that the popular vote was rigged against him when he lost the popular vote to Hillary Clinton.

[Estad Herndon]

In addition to winning the Electoral College in a landslide. I won the popular vote if you deduct the millions of people who voted illegally.

[Marshall Cohen]

Obviously, he tried to overturn the 2020 election, which led to a violent insurrection.

[Josh Dawsey]

Because you'll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength and you have to be strong.

[Marshall Cohen]

So this should be taken seriously. That being said, the nonpartisan people that I talk to who are experts in election administration, they say that despite all this noise, despite all the fears, despite what you've been told at home, that our system is garbage. It's actually quite resilient. There are many safeguards. There are hard working Democratic and Republican officials and nonpartisan staff that run these elections. There are judges and courts that take this seriously as a firewall when people do try to get involved with some funny business. And that you should rest assured that your vote will be counted and will be counted fairly despite all the drama. That's what the experts say.

[Estad Herndon]

Marshall cohen, cnn today's show was produced by kelly wezinger and avishai artsy, edited by jolie myers fact checked by andrea lopez cruzado and engineered by patrick boyd and david tadishaw. Store I'm estad herndon. This is today explained.

[Pepsi Sponsor/Announcer]

This show is brought to you by Pepsi. Remember the Pepsi challenge? Back in 1975, there were blind taste tests comparing Coke and Pepsi. And time after time, Pepsi came out on top. In 2025, Pepsi brought back the iconic Pepsi Challenge with zero sugar colas. And history repeated itself. 66% of participants chose Pepsi Zero Sugar over Coca Cola Zero Sugar and Pepsi. 1 100% of markets where Pepsi conducted the Pepsi Challenge. Even in Coke's hometown of Atlanta, it's the Pepsi paradox. The idea that when labels and bias disappear, you may be surprised by what you actually prefer. And in the case of the Pepsi paradox, cola drinkers prefer the taste of Pepsi Zero sugar. Go out and try Pepsi Zero Sugar today. You deserve taste. You deserve Pepsi.