The autocrat's prison

Summary

Today, Explained: The Autocrat's Prison

Vox’s daily news explainer podcast, "Today, Explained," hosted by Noel King and Ted Hessen, delves into the intricate and pressing issue of authoritarian practices in the context of U.S. immigration policies and international prison systems. Released on March 19, 2025, this episode titled "The Autocrat's Prison" provides a comprehensive analysis of the Trump administration's controversial deportation actions, the utilization of historical wartime statutes, and the implications of El Salvador's severe incarceration methods under President Nayib Bukele.

---

1. The Trump Administration's Deportation of Alleged Gang Members

Defiance of Judicial Orders

The episode opens with Noel King addressing the Trump administration's blatant disregard for a federal judge’s directive concerning the deportation flight to El Salvador. Nearly 200 men, identified by the administration as gang members, were transported despite judicial injunctions. King highlights the administration's actions:

"President Trump and El Salvador's President Nayib Bukele posted video of the shackled men being pulled from the plane by guards in riot gear and transported in white buses to prison." (00:00)

Lack of Evidence and Legal Concerns

Noel King points out the administration's failure to provide substantive evidence linking the deportees to gang activities, noting that many lack criminal records in the U.S.:

"The administration hasn't offered any proof that these men are gang members and acknowledges many don't even have criminal records in the U.S." (00:00)

Use of the Alien Enemies Act

Ted Hessen, an immigration reporter, explains the administration’s invocation of the Alien Enemies Act, a nearly obsolete statute from 1798 traditionally used during wartime:

"The Alien Enemies act is an obscure, rarely used wartime statute... The Trump administration has been building the case that this law could be used against a 'quote, unquote invasion at the U. S. Mexico border.'" (04:30)

Profile of Trend Aragua

Lilia Luciano provides context on Trend Aragua, the Venezuelan gang targeted by the administration:

"Trend Aragua is a Venezuelan gang, a prison gang... reputation, a notorious reputation, for extortion and kidnappings and even contract killings." (02:17)

Legal Battles and Judicial Response

The podcast details the legal tussle initiated by the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), which resulted in a temporary restraining order by Judge James Boasberg:

"Judge Boasberg had said that even if there are planes in the air, you need to stop the planes and turn them around and bring the people back." (07:07)

Despite the judicial order, the administration proceeded with the deportations, raising questions about compliance and the potential for irreparable harm.

---

2. Inside El Salvador's SIOT Prison

Exclusive Insight from the Inside

In the second half, Noel King introduces insights from Ted Hessen, who recently visited SIOT, El Salvador’s most stringent prison:

"I was inside last month... to see how they did it." (14:20)

Conditions Within the Prison

Hessen describes the oppressive environment of SIOT, emphasizing the extreme measures taken to maintain order and erase individual identities:

"Inside each cell, there's anywhere from like, 80 to 100 or even more prisoners... extremely quiet... no communication." (16:11)

Prisoners are confined to modules resembling airplane hangars, stripped of personal identifiers, and subjected to rigid controls:

"It's a mass of shaved heads, all dressed the same... They are all staring from within the cell outside, completely quietly." (17:08)

Psychological Impact on Inmates

A poignant moment in the interview reveals the emotional toll on the inmates:

"Are you going to be here the rest of your life?"
Inmate: "Yeah, the rest of my life. We murdered a lot of people... you just cry at night." (19:15)

Bukele’s Security Model and Public Perception

Hessen critiques President Nayib Bukele's approach, highlighting its popularity despite the harsh realities:

"Nayib Bukele is by profession a marketer... he is absolutely a marketing genius." (24:06)

The public's overwhelming support for Bukele’s policies is evident, with citizens viewing him as a hero who has significantly reduced crime rates:

"This is the biggest symbol that Bukele established... El Salvador is the country with the highest rate of incarceration in the world. And of course, that translated to a significant drop in crime." (15:28)

---

3. Public and International Reactions

Regional Influence and Replication Concerns

The episode discusses the potential for El Salvador’s model to influence other Latin American countries:

"I think others will try to emulate it... but it seems like outsourcing of a security system... we'll see where it gets." (25:08)

US Political Dynamics

Ted Hessen notes the increasing rapport between Bukele and U.S. political figures, particularly within the Republican Party:

"He has been talking to the GOP directly... Matt Gaetz went to El Salvador." (23:25)

Social Media and Public Image

The prison's public image is amplified through social media platforms, with influencers contributing to its notoriety:

"There are a lot of videos of SIOT from... random YouTube influencers." (22:55)

---

4. Legal and Human Rights Implications

Due Process and Human Rights Concerns

The stringent measures employed in SIOT raise significant human rights issues, particularly the suspension of due process and the lack of legal recourse for detainees:

"The notion of innocent until proven guilty does not exist in there." (20:06)

Dependence on Public Opinion

Public support poses a formidable barrier to reform, as seen in the overwhelming popularity of Bukele’s policies which stigmatizes opposition:

"The biggest burden... is public opinion, is the overwhelming popularity of this model." (21:19)

Future Legal Challenges

The ongoing legal battles in the U.S. regarding the use of the Alien Enemies Act remain unresolved, with the outcome still uncertain.

---

5. Conclusion: The Path Forward

Noel King and the guests conclude by reflecting on the broader implications of such authoritarian practices on democracy and human rights both within the United States and globally. The episode underscores the delicate balance between national security measures and the preservation of individual liberties, leaving listeners to ponder the future of immigration policies and international prison standards.

---

Notable Quotes:

• "The Alien Enemies act is an obscure, rarely used wartime statute..." – Lilia Luciano (04:30)
• "We are not allowed to interact, to speak to any of the prisoners." – Ted Hessen (17:08)
• "Nayib Bukele is by profession a marketer... he is absolutely a marketing genius." – Ted Hessen (23:25)
• "The biggest burden... is public opinion, is the overwhelming popularity of this model." – Ted Hessen (21:19)

---

Final Thoughts

"The Autocrat's Prison" serves as a critical examination of how extreme security measures and authoritarian policies can be justified under the guise of national security, often at the expense of human rights and legal norms. By providing firsthand accounts and legal perspectives, "Today, Explained" offers listeners a nuanced understanding of the complexities surrounding immigration enforcement and incarceration practices in the modern era.

Transcript

[Noel King]

The Trump administration is defying a federal judge who's demanding details about a flight to El Salvador. It carried almost 200 men who the administration says are gang members and who were flown from US Soil after the judge said don't. President Trump and El Salvador's President Nayib Bukele posted video of the shackled men being pulled from the plane by guards in riot gear and transported in white buses to prison. The official White House Twitter account also reposted a remix of the video set to Semisonic's closing time. You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here. The song is about joy and possibilities and hope, and they have missed the point entirely. Lest we all let's focus up. The administration hasn't offered any proof that these men are gang members and acknowledges many don't even have criminal records in the U.S. all this coming up on Today Explained support for this show comes from 1Password.

[Ted Hessen]

It's tax season.

[Lilia Luciano]

1Password can help.

[Noel King]

Along with creating and securing passwords, 1Password.

[Lilia Luciano]

Deters scams by auto filling logins on sites you've saved.

[Noel King]

Right now, you get 25% off your first year of 1Password individual or 50% off 1Password [e-mail] PodcastOffer that's 25% or.

[Lilia Luciano]

50% off your first year @1Password.com PodcastOffer all lowercase1Password.com PodcastOffer PayPal lets you pay.

[Noel King]

All your pals like your dinner dates. How are we splitting the bill?

[Ted Hessen]

Um, evenly.

[Noel King]

Well, I only got soup. Let's Split it on PayPal based on what people ate.

[Lilia Luciano]

Get started in the PayPal app, a PayPal account is required to send and receive money.

[Noel King]

It's TODAY Explained. I'm Noel King with Ted Hessen. Ted is an immigration reporter at Reuters. Ted, President Trump is using the Alien Enemies act to target a gang called Trend Aragua. Who are they?

[Lilia Luciano]

Trend Aragua is a Venezuelan gang, a prison gang, and the name translates to train from Aragua, which is a state in Venezuela and within Venezuela and within the region, they have a reputation, a notorious reputation, for extortion and kidnappings and even contract killings. We've seen them increasingly talked about in the US Particularly in the political context. And this goes back to the presidential election last year.

[Ted Hessen]

And what we're hearing, of course, Martha.

[Noel King]

Is that people are terrified by what has happened with some of these Venezuelan gangs. They're dealing drugs, they're getting arrested.

[Ted Hessen]

It's not just Lake and Riley.

[Noel King]

I can give you dozens of examples.

[Lilia Luciano]

Of people who have been victims of crimes. What we saw under former President Joe Biden was increase in immigration generally and illegal immigration at the U. S. Mexico border and also hundreds of thousands of Venezuelans who entered both by crossing the border illegally and through legal entry programs that Biden himself had launched. And then during the election, we noticed that as president, Trump made illegal immigration a major theme and even legal immigration a major theme of his reelection campaign. He was focusing also on the Venezuelans who had come into the country and particularly portraying many of them as affiliated with this gang Trende Aragua, or with gangs in general, or criminality.

[Noel King]

They allowed terrorists, they allowed common street criminals, they allowed people to come in, drug dealers to come into our country. And they're now in the United States and by their countries like Venezuela.

[Lilia Luciano]

Don't ever come back or we're going to kill you. Now, that said, even though this gang does have a fearsome reputation within Venezuela and within the region, there are not yet signs that they're operational on a large scale in the US There have been individual cases of alleged members of the gang arrested and charged with crimes, including very serious crimes. But that said, it's just not clear that there are operational here in the way that they might be in another country.

[Noel King]

What does the Alien Enemies act allow the President to do about this perceived threat?

[Lilia Luciano]

So the Alien Enemies act is an obscure, rarely used wartime statute that dates back to 1798. And it's really just been used three times in US history and always in times of war. It's best known, or most notoriously known for its use in World War II to justify internment camps for Japanese Americans, Americans, Italian Americans and German Americans. The Trump administration has been building the case that this law could be used against a quote, unquote invasion at the U. S. Mexico border. And in a proclamation that he issued on Saturday, President Trump said that the Venezuelan gang Trend Aragua, which he said was present in the US Was part of this invasion and essentially was conducting what he was calling irregular warfare in the US Enough to justify, by invoking this wartime statute, it invaded our country.

[Noel King]

So this isn't in that sense, this is war. In many respects, it's more dangerous than war because, you know, in war they have uniforms, you know who you're shooting at, you know who you're going after.

[Lilia Luciano]

Now, part of the reason they that he would like to do this is that when you have the statute in effect, you can bypass due process in these cases so you don't have. They wouldn't have to go through immigration courts. They may have A pending asylum claim. They may have even a legal status in the U.S. president Trump's proclamation exempted citizens and green card holders, but it could be applied to other Venezuelans in the US ages 14 and up. So actually children as well.

[Noel King]

Do we know that the 200 or so men who've been deported so far are all members of this gang?

[Lilia Luciano]

The Trump administration has said that these are alleged members of the gang. We still have few details about them. In a court filing that came out this week, an official with U.S. immigration and Customs Enforcement ICE said that many of the people who were deported actually had no criminal records in the US Some of them had been either charged or convicted of crimes, including some serious ones, but many of them had not. That said, he said that some of them had criminal convictions in other countries, including Venezuela, and still could potentially pose a threat because of the lack of information about them. Secretary of State Marco Rubio has said something similar, but in the same breath, Secretary of State Rubio also said that if it turns out some of them are not gang members, well, El Salvador, where they've been sent to, can just deport them back to Venezuela. Now, assuming.

[Noel King]

Let's just assume.

[Ted Hessen]

And I'm not saying this is the.

[Lilia Luciano]

Case, because I think there's high fidelity.

[Noel King]

And confidence that, in fact, that's exactly.

[Lilia Luciano]

What every single one of them was.

[Noel King]

But if one of them turns out not to be, then they're just illegally in our country, and the Salvadorans can.

[Lilia Luciano]

Then deport them to Venezuela.

[Noel King]

But they weren't supposed to be in our country to begin with. They were here illegally. They were all here illegally. All the people that are on that list. Okay, all right. So there are legal challenges flying back and forth. Where do things stand legally right now?

[Lilia Luciano]

Since President Trump implemented this policy on Saturday, there has been a legal battle going on led by the American Civil Liberties Union, and they actually sued preemptively before the policy was public to prevent the use of this act against five Venezuelan clients they had in the U.S. in that case, a federal judge in Washington, D.C. his name's James Boasberg. He issued a temporary restraining order for 14 days that essentially said the Trump administration needs to put this policy on hold. There are serious questions being raised here as to whether it could cause irreparable harm, which is the standard for that, and that they should stop. And what we learned after the fact is that two flights, at least two flights were in the air leaving the US and bound for eventually for El Salvador. In his order, Judge Boasberg had said that even if there are planes in the air, you need to stop the planes and turn them around and bring the people back. And it's kind of kicked off a legal battle, first of all about the policy and then secondarily about whether the Trump administration was honoring the spirit of his restraining order and whether they followed it. These planes continued on to their destination, which was El Salvador. And after the fact, the Trump administration has made the argument that they had already left the continental US they were no longer in US Airspace, and that fundamentally, by the time he issued this order, the people had been removed or deported from the US So it no longer applied to them. And all this is still playing out in court. So we don't necessarily know where the judge will land on it or what the final result will be.

[Noel King]

We're going to be talking about the prison in El Salvador where these men were sent in the second half of the show. It's really a remarkable place, a very difficult place to get out of. If some of these men are able to prove that they are not members of Trend Aragua, will they be released?

[Lilia Luciano]

That's completely unclear to me at the moment. Bukele has said that they'll be held there for a one year period that could be renewed. It's not clear that they're facing any charges in El Salvador. It's not clear that they're facing any charges in the U.S. or other countries either, or that they even have criminal convictions. So they are really in a legal black hole at the moment. At this moment, we don't know what sort of access they're going to be getting to attorneys or what might ultimately happen with them. What we have seen in the Trump administration is a kind of similar effort to send Venezuelan migrants and people from other countries as well to the US Naval base in Guantanamo Bay, another place that's known as a legal black hole for long term detention. And in those cases, the people who were there were not ultimately held for long periods. In the case of the Venezuelans, they were able to be removed back to Venezuela. So there is a question, is this a way to pressure the Venezuelan government of President Nicolas Maduro there to agree to accept these deportees and maybe just open the door generally to accepting more deportees?

[Noel King]

Ted Hessen, he's an immigration reporter for Reuters based in Washington, D.C. ted, thanks so much for your time.

[Lilia Luciano]

Thank you for having me.

[Noel King]

Coming up about that prison, we're going to talk to a reporter who's been on the inside. Support for Today Explained comes from the new book Everything is Tuberculosis by number one best selling author John Green. In the book, Green charts how the world's deadliest infectious disease has shaped the course of human history. Everything Is Tuberculosis highlights systemic failures within the global health care systems that, according to the author, have allowed tuberculosis to persist as the world's deadliest infection, killing one and a quarter million people every year. Huh? Despite being curable since the 1950s. In everything is Tuberculosis, John Green tells the story of a young TB patient in Sierra Leone and he weaves in the scientific and social histories of how it has shaped our world and how our choices will shape tuberculosis future. John Green, you might Know, is the award winning number one best selling author of books including Looking for Alaska, the Fault in Our Stars, Turtles all the Way down and the Anthropocene. Reviewed Everything Is Tuberculosis is on sale now wherever books and audiobooks are sold and World Tuberculosis Day is observed on March 24th. Support for this show is brought to you by Noom. Weight loss isn't about getting a quick fix. It's about lasting change. That's where NOOM comes in, offering a complete science backed approach to sustainable weight loss by pairing GLP1 medications with their proven behavior change program. Noom has already helped millions achieve their goals and now it's your turn. With Noom GLP1 you can get access to a doctor, a coach and a supportive community all from within the NOOM app On your phone. You can ask your care team anything regarding your plan and get support with medication and side effect management. Plus, NoomGLP1 comes with companion, your guide to better and more sustainable GLP weight loss. Companion even comes with Muscle Defense, a program to help you keep the muscle and lose the fat. NoomGLP1 starts at $149 and is delivered to your door in seven days. Start your GLP1 journey today at Noom.com, that's n o o m dot com the smart way to lose weight. Not all customers will medically qualify for prescription medications. Compounded medications are not reviewed by the FDA for safety, efficacy or quality. MGM presents a new original series starring Emmy award winner Eric McCormack. I hate flying a small plane like this. May take we're stuck in the middle of nowhere.

[Ted Hessen]

Oh God, he's not breathing. One of us is a killer.

[Noel King]

10 passports let's all assume the worst.

[Lilia Luciano]

Of each other, shall we?

[Noel King]

It's not a question of who. Nine bodies, that's why. One deadly secret.

[Lilia Luciano]

So who's next?

[Noel King]

Nine bodies in a Mexican morgue. Watch now only on MGM plus ESTAR.

[Lilia Luciano]

Escucando a hoy explicado today, explained.

[Noel King]

Lilia Luciano is a national correspondent at CBS news. Lilia was allowed inside of sicot, a prison which was built to hold men who Salvadoran officials call the worst of the worst. Gang members from Ms. 13 and Barrio 18.

[Ted Hessen]

I was inside last month. I wanted to get in and experience for myself what has become the biggest symbol of this toughened crime model that bukele established under a state of exception where certain rights were suspended so that they could carry out these massive detentions to the point that they've detained around 2% or more than 2% of their population, and by doing so, reducing crime. El Salvador is the country with the highest rate of incarceration in the world. And of course, that translated to a significant drop in crime. That was my interest. I wanted to see how they did it. I had been asking for over a year and a half to get access to the prison and see how it worked. And finally, they approved the visit in February.

[Noel King]

Prisons are often viewed as very private places. Why do you think that the Salvadorian government let you in?

[Ted Hessen]

This is a very different prison. This is probably the most famous prison in the world. By now. The images that have emerged from this prison are the symbol that have gained nayibukele an unparalleled level of popularity, not just in his country, but in the entire region. I have heard from countless different nationalities. We need a bukele. And when people think of bukele, they're thinking about this prison.

[Noel King]

Tell us what you saw in this prison. What's it like?

[Ted Hessen]

You know, when you walk into the prison, it's clear that this is the ultimate maximum security. There are multiple layers of gates. The first thing you notice when you approach the area of the prison about a mile outside of the prison gates is that there is a suffocation of communication. Cell phones stop working. You're taken in buses because it's massive, and you see dozens of towers with surveillance and you can expect from a prison. But the thing that's really striking is just how quiet everything is. The inmates are all within these modules that contain a number of cells inside. Inside each cell, there's anywhere from like, 80 to 100 or even more prisoners. But it's all extremely quiet, which, you know, when you think about 80 men.

[Noel King]

Yeah.

[Ted Hessen]

Gang members inside one cell, and you can't hear a thing. That's when you really come to understand the level of force and strength that the guards impose. So there's no communication. There is no visits ever. No Family visits. Those prisoners are within these modules. Imagine like a big airplane hangar. And inside those hangars is where the cells are. They never leave the module, so they never see the light outside. There's no outside time. They can only be outside the cell in the hallway that divides all the cells for about 20 to 30 minutes per day. They don't have mattresses, they don't have sheets. They just sleep in these metal cots. It's these multiple dozens of bunk beds, and that's where they are all the time. What's striking is that it just feels like these human beings who are in there are stripped outside of their tattoos, of course, because they can't take away the tattoos, but they're stripped of anything that makes them stand apart. It's a mass of shaved heads, all dressed the same. Their uniforms, which are all the same, all white. They're wearing Crocs or shoes that are kind of like Crocs. And they're all staring from within the cell outside, completely quietly. I asked, why are they so quiet? What happens if they talk? And they said, you'll have a time to talk to somebody, but if they speak out of line, they're going into solitary. We are not allowed to interact, to speak to any of the prisoners. They are all staring at us. It's so striking to see see them. I only spoke to one prisoner. They only made one prisoner available for me to talk to, who spoke English, who said that he was from LA and shared a little bit of his experience. Are you going to be here the rest of your life?

[Lilia Luciano]

Yeah, the rest of my life. We murdered a lot of people. And this is the consequence of what happened to us is like that Titanic, that we were big and strong gang, but we got hit with the iceberg.

[Ted Hessen]

And he said, you know, you have to act tough, but you can't fight. And at night, he said, we, you know, you just kind of cry. You cry at night.

[Lilia Luciano]

Yeah.

[Noel King]

Who are these men? Who does El Salvador say they are? And what do we know about how accurate what the government portrays of them is?

[Ted Hessen]

El Salvador says these are people who were known who. And even the human rights advocates I talked to told me, yeah, yeah, the people who are in El Secot are for sure these criminals. However, when I asked the director of the prisoners about people being there without convictions, he looked at me and said, no, no, but these are really bad guys. It's almost like the notion of innocent until proven guilty does not exist in there. And so this is something that I started to understand a lot better. When I spent some time and I interviewed their defense minister and their minister of safety and security, who is the person who is in charge of implementing what's known as this Bukele model, where the defense minister was telling me, in the past, we had to wait for people to commit a crime. Now we arrest them first. So you don't need to show evidence. You don't need a warrant. I mean, they just take somebody on suspicion of gang affiliation. There's kind of these mass hearings where people are charged with the crimes of the gang, of the organization, and then it's very hard to prove that you're not part of that organization. I also asked how many people have been released who proved that they were innocent? And this security and justice minister told me about 8,000 of almost 90,000 who've been detained.

[Noel King]

All right, 8,000 of about 90,000 have been released. Or so you were told.

[Ted Hessen]

Or so I was told.

[Noel King]

So there is a possibility, again, according to salvadorian officials, there is a possibility that if you are innocent, if you were wrongly incarcerated, you can get out.

[Ted Hessen]

Yeah, maybe people get hearings. Part of the issue that somebody brought up is that so many people are incarcerated that there's no way there's enough attorneys to deal with every case. It's just very hard to really get your day in court. So even if there's hope, people spend years before they can plead their case and be released. There seems to be a huge burden on people, on family members, to prove somebody's innocence. And the biggest, I think, obstacle that these families who have family members or loved ones imprisoned, who claim that they're innocent, the biggest burden I think they have is public opinion, is the overwhelming popularity of this model in El Salvador and really throughout the region. I walked the streets with the minister of defense, and people were stopping him to take photos, to hug him, to thank him, like a celebrity. It felt like I was walking around with, I don't know, some famous singer or something, and people just expressed all of this gratitude.

[Noel King]

You know, I was looking around on YouTube and Instagram earlier today, and there are a lot of videos of sicot of this prison, not just from traditional media outlets like CBS News, like yours, but also from seemingly random YouTube influencers.

[Lilia Luciano]

What you see behind me is the.

[Noel King]

World'S strictest and largest prison. And if seeing all. All these images, it is easy to suddenly be moved, to touch your heart, to say, wow, what harsh mistreatment inside the prison. But when you learn of the inhumane atrocities they have committed, it makes sense.

[Lilia Luciano]

It's pretty amazing. If you think about it, what Nayibu Kele has been able to do with this country, the streets are as safe as they've ever been because all these guys are out.

[Noel King]

Nayib Bukele is not hiding this. If anything, he is publicizing this. He invited influencers in.

[Ted Hessen]

It's the opposite of hiding. Nayibu Kele is by profession a marketer. He' publicist, a PR professional before he became president. He is absolutely a marketing genius. He knows how to get to people, and his popularity goes way beyond his own country. So he wants to be a global figure. I think he is a global figure. He has been talking to the GOP directly. He has been celebrated by leaders of the Republican Party for a long time. You know, we've seen Matt Gaetz go to El Salvador. We've seen him speak at cpac.

[Lilia Luciano]

Against all adversity.

[Noel King]

We transform El Salvador from the most.

[Lilia Luciano]

Dangerous country in the world to the.

[Noel King]

Safest in the Western Hemisphere.

[Ted Hessen]

He uses every opportunity he can to both export himself as a brand, his security model as a brand, so that his security model and his prison model is sustainable. And this is something he said over and over. So we're safer than Canada, safer than.

[Lilia Luciano]

Chile, safer than Uruguay, safer than the us, safer than any country in the Western Hemisphere.

[Ted Hessen]

He offered the US to take in the US's deportees, to take in the convicted US criminals, and to even take in convicted US citizens in exchange for what he calls a small fee that to El Salvador would signify a big amount.

[Noel King]

You report and travel around Latin America. You talk to people who say our country is also suffering from instability. We need a Bukele here. It sounds like what you're saying is we might see more attempts at building prisons like this elsewhere in Latin America. Do you envision that being possible?

[Ted Hessen]

I think others will try to emulate it. I also think that there's a lot more communication now with the Trump administration, a lot more recognition of what has happened in El Salvador and potentially an even bigger and expanding cooperation because the rights that have been suspended under the state of exception exist in the us. So it's a lot harder for the US to implement the kinds of policies that Bukele implemented. And so it seems like outsourcing of a security system, now in terms of deportees, now in terms of immigration, but we'll see where it gets.

[Noel King]

Lilia Luciano, CBS News. Today's show was produced by Amanda Llewellyn and Avishai Artsy. Amina Elsadi edited Laura Bullard, Fact checked and Patrick Boyd engineered. I'm Noel King. It's today. Expl? Sa.