The Boomer politicians who won't retire

Summary

Today, Explained – "The Boomer Politicians Who Won't Retire"

Date: July 25, 2026
Host: Ested Herndon
Featured Guest: Rep. Jim Clyburn (D-SC), plus comments from voters

---

Episode Overview

This episode tackles the persistent presence of older generations, particularly Boomers, in American political leadership. It explores why so many senior politicians—despite widespread public desire for generational change—continue to seek reelection. Ested Herndon speaks with 86-year-old Congressman Jim Clyburn to discuss the value of experience, the merits of term limits and cognitive testing, the role of money in politics, and the disconnect between party leadership and voter desires.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Graying of Congress

• Congress is older than ever: at the start of this term, the median age was 64 for senators and 57 for representatives ([00:00]).
• "We're now in the third oldest US Congress in all of history," Ested Herndon notes.
• The current roster includes 20 members over age 80, with some, like Maxine Waters (87), seeking reelection.

Voter Opinions: Age vs. Competence

• Vox gathered a panel of listeners across ages to weigh in ([03:55]):
  • More support for term limits than firm age caps: "Term limits are more important than age limits. You don’t want to be ageist, right?" (Lily Green, [04:25]).
  • Some favor considering cognitive ability, not just age: "Some old people are really sharp. Bernie Sanders is popping off and he’s like, what, 2000?" (Joshua, [04:31]).
  • Citing other professions’ age limits: pilots, law enforcement, etc.
  • Lily Green: "Anyone that still uses a printer consistently or can’t do an Excel spreadsheet... shouldn’t be president." ([05:41])

Experience vs. Change: Interview with Jim Clyburn

• Why keep running?
  • Clyburn frames his decision as a responsibility to keep fighting for the country ([06:40]):

    "I think this country is teetering on the brink. And ... those of us who know this history ... it better stay in this fight." — Jim Clyburn ([06:40])

• Experience vs. youth?
  • Argues both are vital:

    "The old is called because they know the way, the young because of their strength ... there must be an adequate application of both." ([07:56])

• On cognitive testing for Congress ([08:28]):
  • At first dismisses proposals as "foolish," then clarifies he's "not opposed" to cognitive testing "in concept" but wants to see the legislation ([10:03]).

Biden, Age and Accountability

• On backing Biden for reelection ([10:25]):
  • Clyburn insists he only supported Biden’s decision; never vouched for his health.
  • On Biden’s infamous 2024 debate:

    "I came to the conclusion that something is wrong here. And the question we have to ask ourselves, was that a condition or an episode? ... all of us have episodes. I had one this morning." ([11:02])

  • Denies the party's (or his own) credibility was damaged by supporting Biden:

    "The party backed him to run. The party didn’t back his reelection because he dropped out of the race." ([12:15])

Old-School Relationships, New Political Realities

• Recalls his working partnership with Lindsey Graham despite political differences ([12:43]):

  "[Graham said,] I could not win in your district and you could not win in my district. But that doesn’t mean the two of us cannot sit down and work together for South Carolina." ([12:43])

• Observes such cross-party relationships are rare now, but still happen, at least in South Carolina ([13:31]).

Black Politics & Generational Change

• On what younger generations lose when civil rights–era leadership moves on:

  "I stayed married ... for 58 years ... we learned early that if you were going to have a successful marriage, we better figure out how to adjust ... each other’s experiences. That’s a big difference in my generation." ([14:15])

  • Suggests younger activists are "too rigid." ([15:14])

Corporate Money & the Black Caucus

• When pressed on accepting corporate PAC and pharma money, Clyburn defends it:

  "No white person in this country came out of slavery. ... We don’t have the family wealth to support [politics], so do we stay out or do we find common ground?" ([15:57]) "Find me one single vote I have ever cast that Pharma supported and my constituents didn’t. You ain’t gonna find it." ([17:15])

• Asserts Black candidates face structural fundraising hurdles, and CBC does advocate for campaign finance reforms ([18:00]).

Navigating New Tech & the Pace of Change

• Clyburn admits to minimal tech/AI familiarity ([23:06]):

  "No, somebody was telling me I ought to [use AI], but I never have." ([23:06]) "I didn’t know what [ChatGPT] was until about a week ago." ([23:17])

• Delegates tech expertise to staff, focusing his own energy on legislation and relationships ([23:51]).

Loyalty, Endorsements & Progressive Rising Stars

• On endorsing establishment over insurgent Democrats (NYC, Michigan): Clyburn stands by supporting candidates he knows personally—relationships going back decades ([24:47], [25:30]):

  "So I’m supposed to throw away all these relationships for somebody I never saw before, never heard of before?" ([25:30]) "I don’t try to stop anybody. ... My concern is making this country’s greatness accessible and affordable for all." ([29:07], [29:18])

• When asked if the base’s shift to younger, more progressive leaders signals a disconnect, Clyburn insists his focus is on his constituents ("They got 90%") ([29:15]).

Democratic Malaise & Blame Game

• Dismisses polling showing low Democratic self-esteem as media-driven ([29:50]):

  "Because we’ve allowed you all to brand us." ([29:50])

• Refuses to blame party leadership for eroded trust:

  "The whole thing is a media problem." ([30:37])

• On why some Black voters support Trump:

  "There are a lot of black people here supporting Trump. You cannot tell me that his policies are good for black Americans. ... So why are black people supporting them?" ([31:57])

• Suggests Black voter turnout was the main issue in recent losses, not leadership failure:

  "When the white vote turned out 71% two years ago and the black vote turned out 59%, you tell me whose fault that is." ([34:45])

• Herndon pushes back—questioning whether party stumbles and lack of accountability contribute more than Clyburn admits—but Clyburn doesn’t accept those critiques ([32:35], [34:24], [35:03]).

On the Next Generation

• Asked who the "next Jim Clyburn" is:

  "There are a lot of them." ([36:30])

  • Refuses to name names ([36:33]), maintaining a guarded optimism.

---

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• "I want to say oligarchy, but with old, like the oldigarchy." —Ested Herndon ([00:00])
• "It’s biblical. The old is called because they know the way, the young because of their strength." —Jim Clyburn ([07:56])
• "The voters make that decision." —Jim Clyburn, on cognitive testing ([08:51])
• "I didn’t know what [ChatGPT] was until about a week ago." —Jim Clyburn ([23:17])
• "I serve with people here who are multimillionaires ... So we are supposed to stay out of politics because we don’t have the family wealth to support it?" —Jim Clyburn ([15:57])
• "I don’t pay any attention to that. I just ran for reelection. They got 90%. So how do you interpret." —Jim Clyburn, on progressive victories elsewhere ([29:07])
• "My concern is making this country’s greatness accessible and affordable for all. That’s what I’m concerned about." —Jim Clyburn ([29:18])
• "Because we’ve allowed you all to brand us." —Jim Clyburn, blaming the media for negative party image ([29:50])
• "I have no idea who’s putting them up to it." —Jim Clyburn, on online criticism ([30:37])

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Aging Congress stats & jokes: [00:00] – [01:10]
• Voter call-ins on age, term limits, mental acuity: [03:55] – [05:51]
• Clyburn interview starts — experience vs. ego: [06:13]
• The biblical case for experience: [07:56]
• Cognitive testing debate: [08:28] – [10:06]
• Biden and the 2024 debate: [10:25] – [12:15]
• On Lindsey Graham, bipartisan relationships: [12:43] – [13:38]
• On generational differences in politics: [14:15] – [15:14]
• Addressing corporate money and Black political fundraising: [15:57] – [18:31]
• AI & technological change: [23:06] – [24:21]
• Endorsements, party loyalty, base revolt: [24:47] – [29:18]
• Media blame for Democratic discontent: [29:50] – [31:57]
• Accountability, Black turnout, and party stumbles: [33:10] – [35:03]
• Next-generation leadership: [36:13] – [36:40]
• Herndon's reflective outro: [36:46] – [38:53]

---

Overall Tone and Reflections

• Ested Herndon maintains a probing but respectful interview tone, mixing humor ("oldigarchy") with sharp, sometimes personal follow-ups.
• Clyburn’s language is folksy, direct, sometimes evasive—he projects a blend of pride, defensiveness, and generational wisdom.
• The episode wraps with Herndon’s honest reflection, comparing the conversation to talking politics with an elder relative, and expressing some disappointment at the lack of self-critique or openness to course correction from Clyburn ([36:46]).

---

Takeaways

• The episode highlights the complexities and tensions surrounding age, experience, and democratic renewal.
• There’s a broad voter appetite for change—but also recognition that skill, energy, and perspective matter more than age alone.
• Senior leaders like Jim Clyburn defend their ongoing service as a matter of responsibility, community memory, and capability, while showing resistance to some forms of accountability or reform.
• The divide between party leadership and grassroots Democratic sentiment—especially among younger and more progressive voters—remains sharp and unresolved.

---

For listeners looking to understand why the same veteran politicians remain at the helm of American politics—and how they themselves see their role—this episode delivers an unflinching and nuanced look at politics’ generation gap.

Transcript

[Estet Herndon]

Considering the sudden death of Lindsey Graham and whatever's going on currently with Mitch McConnell, it got me thinking. Just how old is Congress? Let's do some research, shall we? 80% of voters think that term limits should be required. I want to say oligarchy, but with old, like the oldigarchy. At the start of this congressional term, the median age for a US senator was 64 and the median age for a member of the house was 57. Let's look up the oldest members of Congress. Delegate Eleanor Holmes norton of Washington, D.C. steny Hoyer, the Maryland congressman, he's retiring. Maxine Waters, who is running for reelection, is 87 years old. We're now in the third oldest US Congress in all of history, according to a recent analysis from NBC News. But it's not like politics has ever been a young person's game. However, the problem is getting worse. There are 20 members of the House and Senate that are over 80 years old. Trump, after getting reelected, was the oldest president to take office. And of course, there was the whole Biden fiasco.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

The COVID excuse me, with dealing with everything we have to do with the

[Estet Herndon]

gerontocracy feels like a huge problem in American politics. So why won't the boomers retire? I asked 17 term Congressman Jim Clyburn that exact question.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

I gave serious consideration last year to not run again and made that very clear to quite a few friends. And I kept being asked, how do you feel?

[Estet Herndon]

Clyburn, who turned 86 just this week, is running for reelection in South Carolina again.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

And I kept answering, I feel fine. And they say, well then why would you quit?

[Estet Herndon]

This week on America Actually, Congressman Clyburn makes the case for experience and the establishment. Let's dig in.

[Olivia from Olli]

Hey friends. Olivia from Olli. Between new routines and the ultimate group project known as parenting, you need science backed solutions that work with your life. That's where Ollie comes in. Start your mornings off right with multis made to support nutrition and immune health. Choose from our lineup of gut supporting probiotics. And we've got occasional sleep support to help the whole fam chase their big dreams. Head back to class with the number one Gummy supplement brand. Stock up on ollie.com today. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.

[Facebook Sponsor Voice]

This episode is brought to you by Facebook. So you were scrolling on marketplace and there it was, the bike you'd been searching for you message and it turned out the seller was super chatty, kind of funny and an avid cyclist. The next thing you know, you're in a cycling crew. Well, a community cycling group. The thing about Facebook, you might find more than what you're looking for from a browse to a bike ride this summer. Find more on Facebook

[Estet Herndon]

on this show. We like to think about American politics beyond the question of the day to day administration. And, and a big thing that comes up in that lens is the generational gap that had been exposed in a lot of areas in our politics. There is a universal desire for generational change that we hear all the time. And I don't have to remind you that it's a big reason why President Biden was forced to abandon his reelection bid in 2024. Now, the generational gaps in our politics have only become more important and in the age of AI and fast moving technology. But it's a delicate issue and you have to approach it carefully. So I wanted to start by asking you all, what's the best way to think about age in politics?

[Joshua]

This is Joshua from Centralia, Washington.

[Lily Green]

David.

[Joshua]

I'm from California.

[Lily Green]

My name is Lily green and I'm 31 years old. My name is Alexandra. Hi. This is Kara from Idaho. I'm 74.

[Joshua]

I'm here with my annoying wife, Samantha Freeman.

[Lily Green]

What did I do?

[Estet Herndon]

So should we cap the age for holding office?

[Joshua]

We don't think there should be an age limit necessarily, just mental health tests.

[Lily Green]

I do think term limits are more important than age limits. Yeah, you don't want to be ageist. Right?

[Joshua]

Some old people are really sharp. Bernie Sanders is popping off and he's like what, 2000

[Estet Herndon]

at least.

[Lily Green]

I'm so fed up with the fact that most of our lawmakers are so old.

[Joshua]

Yeah, 80 years old is probably the cap of being way too old to be in Congress.

[Lily Green]

I feel like 65 is a fair cutoff.

[Joshua]

We already have a little bit of an answer in some of the other aspects of public life. You can't be an air traffic controller past your 50s. You can't be a federal law enforcement officer past 57. You can't be an airline pilot past 60.

[Lily Green]

An acknowledgement of our human biology would suggest a maximum age requirement of 70 years for all offices. And there's one aspect of concern about cognitive decline in health.

[Estet Herndon]

Yeah, you see people making the distinction between age and cognitive ability, but then

[Lily Green]

also how in or out of touch that person is and whether they can actually speak to their constituency. Anyone that still uses a printer consistently.

[Estet Herndon]

I like a printer.

[Lily Green]

Or can't do an Excel spreadsheet or even Knows what Google Drive is. Shouldn't be president. That's all I got to say. Bye.

[Estet Herndon]

All right. It's one thing to ask voters, but I want to know what these older elected officials have to say for themselves. And what better person to talk to than Congressman Jim Clyburn, the longtime member of House Democratic leadership. Is this about experience or ego? Let's ask him. I just wanted to start by clarifying, is today your birthday?

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

My goodness, you didn't look at your calendar this morning.

[Estet Herndon]

I did, actually. That's why I knew that today was not just any day of the week.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

There's a little asterisk today. You have to turn to the back and find out that this is one of the few international holidays. Uh huh. Uh huh.

[Estet Herndon]

Congressman Clyburn Day. Or is there another holiday I'm forgetting? Why do you still want to work? I mean, you have earned retirement. Why do you want to be in Congress at this point?

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Well, I think this country is teetering on the brink. And I think that a lot of what's going on demands the attention of everybody, and it demands the best of some of us. I know what my parents went through, and some would think that what they went through we'd never go through again. Well, the history says differently. And those of us who know this history and those of us who know the system and those of us who had the energy to fight it, it better stay in this fight.

[Estet Herndon]

I hear you. That seems to be a case for experience or expertise and the value of it, particularly in this moment. But as I'm sure you know, most Americans have lost faith in Congress's ability to deliver. So I wanna ask a question that kind of combines the age and experience points. Like, can you tell me what you can do in the house in 2027 that someone who is 45 or someone who is younger, another generation can't do? Like, what do you think is the tangible benefit of the experience you're laying out?

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Well, you're talking about experience. It's biblical. The old is called because they know the way of the young because of their strength. And there must be an adequate application of both those things into the system. And so there is no one or the other. I always say that we all got roles to play.

[Estet Herndon]

When you say one or the other, you're saying it's not just a new generation of Democrats and those with experience. The party needs both. That's what you're saying.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Absolutely.

[Estet Herndon]

Okay. One of the things I heard was House Democrat Marie Gluson Camperez proposed an Amendment calling for members of Congress to be evaluated for cognitive impairment. I wanted to know if that's something that you'd support. Why or not?

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

You know, I don't know. Those kind of foolish things, I don't know. I think that needs to be applied to the White House as well.

[Estet Herndon]

I guess what I'm saying. Why are we dismissing it as foolish?

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Because the voters make that decision.

[Estet Herndon]

Okay. You're saying if the voters vote you in, if you win an election, then you deserve to serve.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Well, you go out before the voters, the voters. You don't declare yourself elected. You run for the office. You expose yourself to voters. I'm 86 years old. I know people who are 66 years old with much less energy than I have and know none of the experience that I have. So I don't think that number ought to define how you conduct yourself.

[Estet Herndon]

I guess I still don't wanna go back to my previous question because you make the point that you feel like you are mentally sharp, you feel that you have a lot of energy. And I get your argument against something like an age cap because it would not take those things into consideration. But what Representative Perez is proposing is something about a cognitive acuity. And theoretically, you know, even an 86 year old would be able to pass that. What's your opposition to something like that?

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

I didn't say I had the opposition to it.

[Estet Herndon]

Okay.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

I have no opposition to it.

[Estet Herndon]

Okay. So I guess I was asking you, would you support something like cognitive tests for members of Congress? That's it.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Yes, in concept. Let me see what the legislation is.

[Estet Herndon]

Okay. Okay. One of the reasons I think this comes up so much is because of what happened with the Democratic Party in the last presidential cycle. You were one of the more important voices telling Americans that Joe Biden was fit to run again. When you saw that debate in 2024, did you stand by that judgment? Was that the right call?

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Let me take you back a bit. I never said that.

[Estet Herndon]

Never said what?

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

He asked me if I was supporting Joe Biden. I said yes. I have no medical knowledge about his condition. Had none then and I have none now. And every time I was asked about that question, I would say, I'm not a doctor. If he makes the decision to run again, I will support him.

[Estet Herndon]

I guess I was asking a little bit. What was your personal reaction when you saw President Biden on that stage? Did you think that was someone who should be president or be running for reelection?

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

You mean during the debate?

[Estet Herndon]

During the debate, yes.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

I came to the conclusion that something is wrong here. And the question we have to ask ourselves, was that a condition or an episode? Now, I know of a single person, young or old, who could not at one point says, I don't recall that name. I don't remember what I did with my cell phone. It's in your hand. You know, these are the kinds of all of us have episodes. I had them. I had one this morning.

[Estet Herndon]

What'd you forget? You forgot your phone? I forgot my phone, too.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Couldn't find my eraser to shave. And it was.

[Estet Herndon]

So you're saying, you're saying with Biden, it wasn't known if that was an isolated event or something larger. The last question I would ask on this, though, just to close the loop, is do you think that advocating for him and reelection did the Democratic Party brand any damage in terms of credibility? Because there was a lot of Americans who thought that never should have happened.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Well, that may be true. A lot of Americans didn't think he should have run in the first place. And he beat Trump, and that's why. That's what got Trump so crazy.

[Estet Herndon]

So you don't, you don't look back at that episode and think the party did itself any reputational damage by backing Biden's reelection?

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

I don't think. Why would you? The party backed him to run. The party didn't back his reelection because he dropped out of the race.

[Estet Herndon]

I don't know if that distinction matters to most Americans Play or you.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Most Americans want to put their own interpretation on what happened.

[Estet Herndon]

You lost a colleague this month, longtime South Carolina figure Lindsey Graham. I heard about you all's relationship. How will you remember him? What would you say is Lindsey Graham's legacy?

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Well, I won't know about what his legacy is. I'll let somebody else make that decision. I will say this, that we agreed on few things politically, but we had a great working relationship. He understood that. I got elected, and as he said to me one time, I could not win in your district and you could not win in my district. But that doesn't mean the two of us cannot sit down and work together for South Carolina, which is what we did.

[Estet Herndon]

I wonder, are those things harder to come by now? Like, you've seen Congress change over the years. And when we talk about the working relationship between you and Graham, is that just like more and more rare across the place?

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Well, it seems that way for some people, but that's just how we do it in South Carolina.

[Estet Herndon]

It does seem as if a generational political figure shaped in the kind of post War era have stepped aside or. Or passed away in recent years. I'm thinking in black politics. We recently lost Reverend Jesse Jackson earlier this year. And then that means a group of people who are further and further away from the civil rights movement. You mentioned how knowing the stories of your community, of your history, of your ancestors, shaped your own politics. I wanted to give you a chance to. To kind of speak to this directly. What does your generation have that you think generations like mine might be missing? What are we losing out on when we talk about the silent generation and boomers moving on?

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

I think the first thing we have to understand is that all of us will never think a lot. We are the victims of our experiences, and no two people will have the same experience. I stayed married to the same woman for 58 years. We had a lot of disagreements. We weren't raised the same way. And so we learned early that if you were going to have a successful marriage, we better figure out how to adjust each other's backgrounds and each other's experiences. I think that's a big difference in my generation than most of us. And a few of the younger generation, they just feel, you got to think like me, you got to act like me, you got to talk like me, or you cannot exist. That's foolishness.

[Estet Herndon]

We're saying that maybe the upcoming generation is too morally rigid.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

I don't know about moral liberty. It's too rigid.

[Estet Herndon]

They ain't sure about the morals, but they rigid about something. I mean, I do think this manifests itself in substantive issues. And so I want to ask about the substance. You know, the Congressional Black Caucus has been one of the Democratic establishment staunchest allies. And we're seeing some generational changes even within that group. One big break between the kind of older generation and the younger generation is around specifically the issue of corporate PAC money. Voters overwhelmingly oppose corporate and special interest funding. But the Black Caucus has long been corporate aligned. You yourself has been one of the biggest receivers of farmer money. Black. But 85% of Americans support legislation that will end dark money. Is the CBC on the wrong side of this?

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

No. You know as well as I do that no white person in this country came out of slavery. I'm not that far removed from it. I know how my parents grew up. They didn't grow up with wealth. They couldn't pass that wealth on to their children because they never had it. I serve with people here who are multimillionaires, and if they decide, I'm not going to take any kind of corporate PAC money because My mom and daddy can write the check. So we are supposed to stay out of politics because we don't have the family wealth to support it, or do we sit down and find common ground? And let me tell you, you mentioned Farmer. I would challenge you to find me one single vote I have ever cast that Farmer supported and my constituents didn't. You ain't gonna find it. So you might ask.

[Estet Herndon]

I get what you.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Why do I get so much support from pharma? Because I am the biggest proponent of medical research, as you're gonna find here. It ain't about voting with Big Pharma. It's about voting for the future health of people with heart disease, diabetes, cystic fibrosis, all these things that kill people that I'm trying to find cure for. And that's all it is. Yeah.

[Estet Herndon]

You're saying there's no daylight between your constituents and those votes who are taking. But I do wanna go back to your earlier point because it is important to say, and I wanna acknowledge that black candidates often do not come from the same amounts of personal wealth.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Not often.

[Estet Herndon]

Yeah. That a lot of other members of Congress have. I think that's an important true point. The ability to raise money is often more difficult. But I mean, theoretically, you know, the CBC or others could advocate for public election, public funding of elections. They could advocate for small dollar numbers and people raising money through that. Like. So I'm just saying, like, aren't there other avenues that they could take that will put them more aligned with a Democratic base that's increasingly against corporate money?

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

We do.

[Estet Herndon]

Okay.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

All right.

[Estet Herndon]

I hear you. All right. You're like, we already do that stuff, period.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Absolutely do it.

[Estet Herndon]

Support for this show comes from Quint. It's summertime and the living is easy. Or at least so they say. But that's especially true if you've got relaxed, breathable clothes that you can put on for that great summer. Summer occasion. And for those, look no further than Quint's this season. Quint's has European linen pants and shirts starting at just $34. They also have soft and easy to wear tees, comfortable and lightweight cotton sweaters for those cool summer evenings. Plus, everything at quints is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. That's because they work directly with factories and cut out the middlemen. So you're paying for exceptional quality, not brand markups. I actually got a couple Quint's clothes some months ago, and I love it. I got a khaki jacket, a denim jacket, and they both have been in my summer rotation for the layering that we need for this weather make your summer wardrobe easier. Go to quint.com estead for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's quince.com Q-U-I-N-C-E.com ASTED A S T E A D for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com ASTED.

[Whatnot Sponsor Voice]

Support for this show comes from Whatnot Running a store as a side hustle or a full time business comes with its own set of challenges, one of which is getting noticed. You spend hours sourcing inventory, setting up your storefront and creating listings. Not really a lot of time to figure out how to crack that algorithm. Whatnot wants to help Whatnot is the largest dedicated live shopping platform. Whether it's beauty, collectibles, electronics, luxury, fashion, even cookies, sellers are building real, thriving businesses. People selling on whatnot sell 10 times more than on other major marketplaces. That's because you're not just listing products, you're building real connections with buyers. Whatnot buyers spend more than an hour a day on the app. They're not just browsing, they're engaged and buying and coming back. Go live, show off products in real time and turn what you love into real income. I tried Whatnot and had a really great time exploring all of the different live auctions, exploring all of the different salespeople and their different wares. I was coming across vintage dealers. I was coming across people selling antiques and little sets of china. It's a really fun app and a really great new way to shop. Search Whatnot W H a T N o t in the App Store Download and you could start selling right away.

[Grow Therapy Sponsor Voice]

Support for Today explained comes from Grow Therapy. One of the barriers to entry for therapy is often cost. But therapy is too expensive. Should surely not be the end of that conversation. Grow Therapy works to help people find care they can afford. It is insurance friendly, I'm told, and it is easy to start and stay with. There are no subscriptions, just support that fits your life and your budget. Whether it's your first time in therapy or your 50th. Grow makes it easier to find a therapist who fits you and not the other way around. They can connect you with thousands of independent licensed therapists across the US offering both virtual and in person sessions on those nights. On those weekends. You shouldn't have to choose between paying your bills and getting mental health care. Grow Therapy makes care more affordable, more flexible, and way easier to access as Grow. The therapist you want can take your insurance on Grow. Grow accepts more than 125 insurance plans. Sessions average $21 with insurance and some pay as little as $0 depending on their plan. Visit GrowTherapy.com explained today to get started. That's GrowTherapy.com explained. GrowTherapy.com explained availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

[Estet Herndon]

Let's ask about some other issues that I think are at sort of the heart of some of the generational questions in the Democratic Party. I want to ask you about AI. There's so much that it's changing in terms of the future of work and our economy. Have you. Do you use AI? Have you ever used an LLM?

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

No. Somebody was telling me I ought to, but I never have.

[Estet Herndon]

No chatgpt? No cloth for you?

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Believe it or not, I didn't know what that was until about a week ago.

[Estet Herndon]

Which one?

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Chatgpt or whatever it is you didn't

[Estet Herndon]

know till a week ago? Wow. I'm jealous. You've caved yourself in a bubble.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

That may sound strange to you. I don't know. I didn't know what that was.

[Estet Herndon]

Okay. Have you been to a data center or anything like that? No. Okay. I guess I'm wondering, like with the speed of technological changes right now, with how much people are anxious about the ways AI and work might change because of it, how do you effectively legislate as a member who is distant from some of those technological shifts that are affecting folks lives right now?

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

I have a great staff, you know, I wish I could know everything. I don't know everything and I don't spend my time trying to learn everything. What I spend my time doing is trying to surround myself with people who do know stuff. I know how to legislate, I know how to build relationships and I hire people to bring knowledge into the game that I can put to practice.

[Estet Herndon]

One of the things we've been tracking since the last election is how the more moderate lane of Democrats is trying to find its electoral footing after Trump's twin in 2024. You weighed in in the New York City mayor's race in the 2025 election supporting Andrew Cuomo, even though in 2021 you were among those that said he should resign. I haven't seen you since that kind of switch. I wonder to know how you went from saying he should resign to endorsing him last year

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

for two different things. The fact still remains that when Mandami won the primary, I endorsed his election, thereby saying, are you going to endorse him. I made it very clear. And quite frankly, he made a phone call to me and did thank me for my endorsement. And that's why you have primaries.

[Estet Herndon]

You say when Zoramdani won the Democratic nomination, you supported him. He called and thanked you for your support. You're saying that's distinct from your support of Cuomo in the primary. I guess I'm just asking though, if Cuomo was kind of morally incompatible with office in 2021, why isn't that thing still true in 2025?

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Well, I'll just ask you this. I've worked with Cuomo when he was secretary of hud, and he was secretary of hud. South Carolina was one of the few states in the state that got an empowerment zone, $10 million a year for 10 years. That's just one of the things that I got from him. Alvin Brown, who became mayor of Jacksonville, Florida and is still in my orbit, was on his staff, had worked for Vice President Gore. Alvin Brown is a native of Beaufort, South Carolina. I've known him pretty much all of his life. So I'm supposed to throw away all these relationships for somebody I never saw before, never heard of before. And he said I should be supporting this person I know nothing about, against this person I've been working with for 40 years.

[Estet Herndon]

Well, I guess I'm not.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Well, don't you just get off of that?

[Estet Herndon]

Yeah, I guess I'm not saying that. But theoretically.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

I don't know what you're saying.

[Estet Herndon]

No, theoretically you could not say anything at all. I mean, this isn't happening in South Carolina, you know. So I'm saying, I guess my question was why weigh in in the first place, considering the claim, the statement that you had already said about Cuomo in 2021.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

I give you my reasons.

[Estet Herndon]

Okay.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

And why I weighed in and why I will weigh in again.

[Estet Herndon]

Okay.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

I have weighed in on the Senate race up in Michigan.

[Estet Herndon]

Yeah, I want to ask about that too.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

I have been working with Haley Stevens ever since she's been in the Congress. We co chair a task force dealing with manufacturing. She is the person that's my go to person when it comes to working with Scout Motors who just came to Columbia, South Carolina and go build Volkswagen going to hire 6,000 people.

[Estet Herndon]

So it's that working relationship, that plant

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

from my house and she has been the go to person. So I'm supposed to say to her, she's running for the Senate or this guy that you running against is somebody I heard about, somebody I have never seen Somebody, as far as I'm concerned, he's never made one single contribution to the constituents up there. And when I talk to African Americans up in Detroit, they all tell me how great Haley Stevens is. But you people who want to talk about some notion you got saying I should stay out of the race, no. So what are you saying?

[Estet Herndon]

I guess I was asking should we think of these endorsements, whether it's Cuomo in 2025 or Haley Stevens right now, as endorsements because of your advocacy for those candidates and your relationship with them, or endorsements that are about stopping their opponent Mamdani in New York City or Elsayed in Michigan?

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

I don't try to stop anybody.

[Estet Herndon]

Okay.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

If you told me you were running for office, I would say good luck to you.

[Estet Herndon]

I would stop myself. All right, let me ask then about those endorsements. When something like Mamdani wins in New York City, he's now, you know, favorability would tell you one of the most popular Democrats in the country. As someone who endorsed on the other side in that primary, do you think after that happens, like, does that change your calculus? Does that make you think there's something going on among the base that maybe I should be aware of? Or even his surprising support from some black communities in New York City, does that tell you, hey, maybe these are people are open to a different type of politics than I initially expected. How do you intake what has happened since the endorsement?

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Well, I don't pay any attention to that. I got 90%. I just ran for reelection. They got 90%. So how do you interpret.

[Estet Herndon]

So you're saying your only your concern is really to your constituents, period.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

My concern is making this country's greatness accessible and affordable for all. That's what I'm concerned about.

[Estet Herndon]

Let me just end on these couple questions. Democrats largely have a historically negative view of their own party after the last election. Why do you think that is?

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

I don't think that's historical.

[Estet Herndon]

I guess I'm saying polling would tell you that Democrats view of their own party is reaching lower numbers than ever. That's why I use the word historic. And I'm saying why do we think that is?

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Because we've allowed you all to brand us.

[Estet Herndon]

It's media branding.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Yes, that's exactly what it is.

[Estet Herndon]

Like a convenient way to say it's not the politicians.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

You can call it convenient if you want to, but I talk to people all over this country. I just left Texas and I'm headed to Michigan. And I know when people tell me what their problems are, And I answer their problems. They say, well, I never thought about it like that before. I said, well, that's exactly what the facts are.

[Estet Herndon]

Let me ask you a different way. Is it your opinion that Democratic Party leadership is not the main cause of the reason why voters trust their individual leaders less? You're saying that is a media problem, not necessarily the actions of Democratic Party leadership? That's what you're saying?

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Well, I would say the whole thing is media problem. I think the whole thing, it's like when I was growing up, elderly people used to tell me all the time, because you can imagine at the time I was growing up, you would call a lot of things the N word was thrown around as if it was your second name. And people used to tell us all the time, now, son, don't worry about what people call you. It's what you answer to. That's the issue. And so I advise young people, even today, don't get all exercise over what people call you, especially when they're doing it on the Internet and are faceless. I don't react to that stuff because I have no idea who's putting them up to it. I do know this. There are a lot of black people who are here supporting Trump. You cannot tell me that his policies are good for black Americans. Are they? So why are black people supporting them?

[Estet Herndon]

It might be because the Democratic Party hasn't delivered. Like, it might be because the leaders of investment in neoliberal Democratic politics has not changed their communities. Right. Like, couldn't they be voting not just for Republicans, but against Democrats?

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Well, don't vote at all. Isn't that what you said?

[Estet Herndon]

I guess I wanted to say that I feel like when we talk to a lot of the Democratic base, we hear a desire to. For accountability from their own leadership, a leadership they feel like has not delivered, a leadership they feel like made some political stumbles for Donald Trump to return. I guess I was asking, do you share any of that and feel that no. And you're saying no?

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

I'm saying no. I'm saying that's what you think. They don't tell me that.

[Estet Herndon]

They don't tell you that.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Why are my constituents telling you stuff they won't tell me?

[Estet Herndon]

I guess I find it a little hard to believe that you haven't heard the Democrats say they're mad at their own party leadership right now. That feels pervasive, you know, like, we just saw Adriano Espailla lose in New York. We just saw the incumbent win in Colorado. You have a Democratic socialist line candidate leading in the Wisconsin governor's primary. Those things feel like an evidence of a Democratic Party base who is searching for something different. Do you think that's true?

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Well, it all depends on why. I mean, where are they getting their messages from? I just think that a lot of it has to do with. With whoever the nominee is or whoever the candidate is and whether or not they do a good job of campaigning.

[Estet Herndon]

You're saying it's up to the individual candidate?

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Absolutely.

[Estet Herndon]

You know, the black vote, particularly in the south, has often sided with establishment candidates in presidential primary elections. Clinton over Sanders in 2016, Biden and the key role you played in his ability to win the nomination in 2020. I guess I wanted to ask a semi provocative question, which is that has the Democratic Party paid that loyalty back? When we think about the communities that I think we both care about, have they been served by the deference to mainstream Democratic politics that they have given?

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Well, let's look at what do we get out of our support for Biden? What do we get out of our support for Obama? Well, just look at the agenda. You don't think that Obama offered a big enough payback? You don't think that Biden, with his rescue plan, this infrastructure bill.

[Estet Herndon]

What lessons did you take from the Biden administration? Like political. Political lessons? Like, was there any political lesson you think there is to take from an administration whose central goal was to stop Donald Trump's return? And here we are, and he stopped it. I mean, you stopped it and enabled, I think, some would argue, well, when

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

the white vote turned out 71% two years ago and the black vote turned out 59%, you tell me whose fault that is. I guess only 59% of African Americans went to the polls two years ago.

[Estet Herndon]

So it's tough for me personally to blame black voters for the last election more than it is to blame President Joe Biden.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

That's the fact. It wasn't Joe Biden on the ticket. It was Kamala Harris on the ticket

[Estet Herndon]

for 107 days after he decided to.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Kamala Harris on the ticket.

[Estet Herndon]

I guess I just wanted to see if there was a clear political lesson you took from that moment and whether there are things you think something applies in this kind of larger Democratic rethink after. But I hear you. You're saying that you think it was a media problem, it was a branding problem, it was a candidate problem.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

I didn't say that. The media had nothing to do with that. 59%. If that 59% had been 69%, she would have won?

[Estet Herndon]

I guess. So. Is the argument that black people let Kamala Harris down?

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Oh, in many instances, absolutely. If you don't show up to vote, what are you doing?

[Estet Herndon]

Is there no valid reason why black voters could not have felt heard by the last Democratic election? Is there no valid reason that they would have? There might be.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

There might be. I'd like to know what it is.

[Estet Herndon]

Okay, Last question I would have is a one to look forward in the spirit of generational change. Tell us about the rest of the Congress. Who's the next Jim Clyburn? Who's someone who we should be thinking about in terms of being a link to black political communities and making the type of stuff happen that you've been proud to make happen for a while.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

There are a lot of them.

[Estet Herndon]

Names, please.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Oh, I'm not going to be naming people. No.

[Estet Herndon]

I appreciate your time. I appreciate you joining us.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Thank you very much. And believe it or not, I love this kind of exchange.

[Estet Herndon]

I feel it, you know, like, keep me sharp, you know. In a lot of ways, that conversation made me a little sad. I gotta be honest. It's not like I don't understand where Clyburn is coming from. I mean, this is someone who was born in 1940 in segregated South Carolina and went on to become one of the highest ranking black elected officials in congressional history. I mean, this is someone who's invested their life in the Democratic Party, and I get that. But I also think that his refusal is to see any need for course correction is part of the reason why people are so upset with party leadership in the first place. You know, in a lot of ways, it reminded me of a conversation you might have with an older family member who just won't budge no matter the evidence in front of them. But there's no reason that experience has to come at the cost of accountability. And that's frankly what I didn't hear in that conversation. Did the voters fail the Democratic Party or is it the other way around? America actually will be in your feeds every Saturday with an interesting interview in culture or politics. You can also watch these episodes on the Vox YouTube channel. Just go to YouTube.com vox or click the link in the show Notes. The best way to support this show is by becoming a VOX member. Members get a bonus segment on Patreon every week and they make our work possible. Go to Vox.commembers to join. That's Vox.commembers to join. This show was edited by Kasha Brasiliot, Fact Checked by Esther Gim and mixed by Shannon Mahoney. Christopher Snyder is our video editor and Khun Nui is our senior art director. Our executive producer is Christina Vallis and our theme music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Additional support from Miranda Kennedy, David Tadashore and Nisha Chital. I'm Estet Herndon and this is America. Actually.

[Odoo Sponsor Voice]

Running a business shouldn't feel like surviving a software group project. One app for accounting, another for inventory, another for sales, and somehow none of them talk to each other. That's where Odoo comes in. An all in one business management software that brings every part of your business together, from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, all in one powerful platform. No messy integrations, no bouncing between tabs, and best of all, no spreadsheets. Stop managing software and start managing your business with one unified system. Try for free today at odoo.com Vox that's O-O-O.com Vox

[Shopify Sponsor Voice]

starting a business can seem like a daunting task unless you have a partner like Shopify. They have the tools you need to start and grow your business. From designing a website to marketing to selling and beyond, Shopify can help with everything you need. There's a reason millions of companies like Mattel, Heinz and Allbirds continue to trust and use them. With Shopify on your side, turn your big business idea into Sign up for your $1 per month [e-mail] specialoffer.