The Bro Brogan presidency

Summary

Today, Explained - "The Bro Brogan Presidency" Summary

Release Date: November 13, 2024
Hosts: Sean Rameswaram and Noel King
Source: Vox

---

1. Introduction to Trump's 2024 Victory and the "Bro" Targeting Strategy

In the wake of Donald Trump's 2024 victory, Hosts Sean Rameswaram and Noel King delve into the unique dynamics that defined the election. Sean opens the discussion by referencing Trump's victory speech, highlighting its significant appeal to a demographic they term "The Bros."

Notable Quotes:

• Sean Rameswaram [00:04]: "We just witnessed the greatest political comeback in the history of the United States of so did campaign bro Chris Lacivita, and he's a hell of a candidate and he's going to be a hell of a great 47th president and Omega Bro."

The campaign, ingeniously led by a female strategist dubbed "the Ice Baby," tailored its messaging to resonate with various "bro" subgroups, including older and younger men, business professionals, and cultural influencers. Key endorsements came from figures like JD Vance, Chris Lacivita, Dana White, and Joe Rogan, further cementing the campaign's robust appeal to this demographic.

2. The "Bro Vote" Demographics and Theoretical Insights

Rebecca Jennings, Vox's senior correspondent, presents a compelling theory that the 2024 election was predominantly a "bro election," where young male voters played a decisive role in Trump's victory.

Notable Quotes:

• Rebecca Jennings [02:22]: "My theory is that this was like the bro election and the bros voted and won."
• Rebecca Jennings [02:42]: "When we talk about the bro vote, what we're talking about is like the coalition of kind of Gen Z male voters who have been leaning to the right in ways that kind of deviate from what we would think of as, you know, the straightforwardly liberal youth vote."

The data supports this theory, with exit polls indicating that 49% of men aged 18-29 favored Trump, compared to a significant 24-point advantage for Harris among the same age group of women. This stark contrast underscores a shift where young men, feeling overshadowed by the advancements and gains of women in recent decades, gravitated towards a candidate who they felt represented their frustrations and aspirations.

3. Campaign Strategy: "Going Deep, Not Wide"

The Trump campaign's strategic approach deviated from traditional presidential campaigns by bypassing mainstream media channels in favor of leveraging influencers and platforms that directly engage the "bro" demographic.

Notable Quotes:

• Rebecca Jennings [08:08]: "It was pretty explicitly like this was a strategy to reach young male voters who typically wouldn't really care about politics. But they're listening to these shows."
• Sean Rameswaram [05:33]: "I saw clips of a number of these interviews where like someone gave him like a MAGA cybertruck. He was talking to Theo Vaughn about cocaine. He was rambling about nonsense with Joe Rogan."

By aligning with popular influencers such as Joe Rogan, Theo Von, and live-streamers like Aiden Ross, the campaign effectively tapped into non-political spaces where young men spend their time. This method not only broadened their reach but also fostered a sense of authenticity and relatability among voters who might otherwise be disengaged from traditional political discourse.

4. Gender Dynamics and Societal Backlash

The campaign's overt focus on male voters led to a pronounced shift in gender dynamics, with a noticeable alienation of women from the political narrative.

Notable Quotes:

• Sean Rameswaram [10:28]: "The Trump campaign really spoke to those grievances."
• Sean Rameswaram [10:01]: "And then the campaign was just so masculine. It was just a lot of dude energy. It was misogynistic."

This masculinized campaign approach not only galvanized support among young men but also ignited frustration and disenchantment among women. The emphasis on traditional masculine roles and the sidelining of female perspectives contributed to a growing sentiment of being left behind, fostering an environment ripe for backlash and counter-movements.

5. The 4B Movement: Women Boycotting Men

In response to the perceived prioritization of male interests and the rollback of women's rights, a significant backlash emerged within female communities, both online and offline. Constance Grady, a Vox senior correspondent, introduces the 4B movement—originating from South Korea—now gaining traction on American platforms like TikTok.

Notable Quotes:

• Constance Grady [17:09]: "A lot of younger women on social media, especially on TikTok, are getting really into the idea of this movement that comes out of South Korea. It is called 4B and it calls for women to boycott men."
• Constance Grady [18:13]: "No heterosexual marriage, no heterosexual dating, no heterosexual sex and no childbearing under any circumstances."

The movement advocates for women to abstain from heterosexual relationships and procreation as a form of protest against societal structures that they perceive as oppressive and regressive. This radical shift mirrors South Korea's similar movements like "Escape the Corset," which challenges stringent beauty standards and societal expectations placed on women.

6. Reactions and Wider Implications

The emergence of the 4B movement has elicited a spectrum of responses, from supportive to vehemently opposed. While some women adopt the 4B stance as a serious commitment to redefining their roles, others express it as a symbolic gesture of frustration.

Notable Quotes:

• Sean Rameswaram [24:12]: "Loads of liberal women are not going to produce. That means generations of art majors, journalists, baristas, slam poets, they're all dying out. We're not gonna have any left. I don't know what we're gonna do."

Additionally, the movement has sparked backlash, including rape threats and condemnations from various quarters, highlighting the deep-seated tensions and divisions exacerbated by the 2024 election dynamics.

7. Conclusion and Future Outlook

As the 2024 election reshapes the American political landscape, the interplay between targeted campaigning and resultant societal reactions underscores a profound transformation in voter behavior and gender relations. The strategic focus on the "bro" demographic has not only secured electoral victory but also ignited significant cultural and political discourse surrounding gender roles, identity politics, and the future trajectory of American society.

Notable Quotes:

• Constance Grady [26:12]: "A lot of the popular feminist movements in America over the past decade or so have been kind of widespread expressions of rage. Things like the Women's March and the MeToo movement have been more about expressing. We are very angry about the things that have been done than necessarily about campaigning and making concrete demands."

The episode closes by reflecting on the enduring impact of these movements and the necessity for inclusive political strategies that address the multifaceted needs of a diverse electorate.

---

Additional Notable Moments:

• Whistleblower Insights [05:33]: The hosts discuss unconventional campaign tactics, such as Trump discussing topics like "cocaine" with Theo Vaughn ([05:33]).

• Influencer Engagement [07:26]: References to Trump’s appearances with popular figures like Jake and Logan Paul, highlighting the campaign’s deep dive into influencer partnerships ([07:26]).

• 4B Movement Details [17:20-19:11]: In-depth exploration of the origins and motivations behind the 4B movement, including societal pressures in South Korea and their transposition to the U.S. ([17:20]-[19:11]).

---

Speaker Attribution:

• Sean Rameswaram: Host discussing campaign strategies and societal impacts.
• Rebecca Jennings: Senior Correspondent, providing theories and data on voting demographics.
• Constance Grady: Senior Correspondent, elaborating on the 4B movement and gender dynamics.

---

This comprehensive analysis by "Today, Explained" offers listeners an insightful exploration of the 2024 election's unique characteristics, the strategic targeting of "bro" voters, and the ensuing cultural shifts that signal significant changes in American political and social landscapes.

Transcript

[Sean Ramaswaram]

Did you see Trump's victory speech?

[Rebecca Jennings]

I'll never be doing a rally again. Can you believe it?

[Sean Ramaswaram]

It was a big moment for The Bros. The 2024 Trump campaign was run by a woman, the Ice Baby.

[Rebecca Jennings]

We call her the Ice Baby.

[Sean Ramaswaram]

Right? But it was targeted at bros. Older bros, younger bros, business bros, all the bros. And on election night, Trump's new vice bro, JD Vance, got to speak. And I think that we just witnessed the greatest political comeback in the history of the United States of so did campaign bro Chris Lacivita, and he's a hell of a candidate and he's going to be a hell of a great 47th president and Omega Bro. And UFC CEO Dana White, he's a tough guy. Who went on to shout out the all time reigning champion of the bros, the mighty and powerful Joe Rogan. The Bro Rogan experience. Coming up on Today explained Amgen, a.

[N/A]

Leading biotechnology company, needed a global financial company to facilitate funding and acquisition to broaden Amgen's therapeutic reach, expand its pipeline and accelerate bringing new and innovative medicines to patients in need globally. They found that partner in Citi, whose seamlessly connected banking markets and services businesses can advise, finance and close deals around the world. Learn [e-mail] clientstories.

Support for this show comes from Polestar. Polestar is an electric performance car brand that is focused on innovation for both cutting edge technology and design and their all electric SUV. Polestar 3 is for those unwilling to compromise, for those who believe they shouldn't have to choose between the spacious comfort of an SUV and the agile handling of a sports car. For those who need an intuitive infotainment system and a dashboard designed with minimalism in mind. Polestar 3 is for drivers who won't settle for anything less. Book a Test drive for Polestar 3 [e-mail].

[Constance Grady]

Bra bruh.

[N/A]

Bruh. Bruh.

[Sean Ramaswaram]

Bruh, bruh, bruh, bruh. Rebecca Jennings, senior correspondent here at Vox, you have a theory about this election, about a certain demographic that was important to a certain candidate. What is your theory?

[N/A]

My theory is that this was like the bro election and the bros voted and won.

[Sean Ramaswaram]

Which bros? There's all sorts of bros. I might be a bro. Which bros?

[N/A]

I mean, you're. Yeah, you're bro adjacent. I'm specifically talking about like young men. I would say like 18 to mid-30s maybe.

[Sean Ramaswaram]

Bruh bruh.

[N/A]

But yeah, when we talk about the bro vote, what we're talking about is like the coalition of kind of Gen Z male voters who have been leaning to the right in ways that kind of deviate from what we would think of as, you know, the, the kind of straightforwardly liberal youth vote.

[Sean Ramaswaram]

Right. Because when I was in college, I remember everyone around me seemed super liberal. But something else is going on here.

[N/A]

Yeah, I mean, I think there's so many different reasons for it. I mean part of the reason, yeah, like in the 2000s being to the left was like what the cool kids did.

[Sean Ramaswaram]

The truth is when we get Bush.

[N/A]

To step down, it's gonna be the.

Biggest party that this world has ever seen. You know, it was like anti Bush and anti Iraq war. So right now all we have are exit polls. We won't know like for sure things for another couple of weeks, but it is showing that, you know, 18 to 29 year old men are favor, like favored Trump 49% and 18 to 29 year old women favored Harris by 24 points. So that's like a huge gap between what young men are voting for and what young women are voting for. And I think what we're seeing is a lot of young men reacting to the enormous strides that women have made in the last 50 years. More women out earn men, more women are getting college degrees. These men sometimes feel very left behind. That's what they say they feel me too was an overreach.

The reality is that women want men to act like men. That involves a certain amount of aggressive activity.

[Sean Ramaswaram]

There's a masculine crisis because men are not taking responsibilities for the God given roles that they have in society. The man of the house. The man of the house should provide for the house. I'm not gonna have a girl pay half my rent.

[N/A]

They wanna feel like they are in control of their lives. And I think the Trump campaign really spoke to those grievances.

[Sean Ramaswaram]

And we talked about this a bit on the show a few months ago. Trump is trying to go deeper, not wider.

[N/A]

And what I mean by that is.

[Sean Ramaswaram]

He'S trying to find more people who are simpatico already to him or his worldview who might not vote at all.

[N/A]

But would never vote for a Democrat.

[Sean Ramaswaram]

The Trump campaign in choosing JD Vance certainly, but even in the types of media they were doing were speaking to these grievances. Right.

[N/A]

The Trump campaign really kind of throughout the playbook that typical presidential campaign would do, which is like, you know, do every like cable news interview and do interviews with newspapers and things. He went to straight to where people are paying attention. He did interviews that weren't even political at all. You know, like we have influencers who are just really popular with young men, often because, you know, they cover gaming or sports or whatever. And those people interviewed him in this way that can reach the sort of like the non political bro vote.

[Sean Ramaswaram]

I saw clips of a number of these interviews where like someone gave him like a MAGA cybertruck. He was talking to Theo Vaughn about cocaine. He was rambling about nonsense with Joe Rogan. What is happening with the whales? I've read about this.

[Rebecca Jennings]

Well, they say that the wind drives them crazy. You know, it's a vibration because you have those, you know, Those things are 50 story buildings, some of them.

[Sean Ramaswaram]

Right. And they're super sensitive to vibrations.

[Rebecca Jennings]

You know, the wind is rushing, the things are blowing. It's a vibration and it makes noise. You know what it is? I want to be a whale psychiatrist. It drives the whales fricking crazy.

[Sean Ramaswaram]

Was there really a strategy here or was it just like Trump go on these shows and we might win some votes?

[N/A]

I mean, isn't that kind of his strategy even has like rallies? Like he just kind of gets up there and rambles and I like, you know, that's, that's really quality entertainment according to a lot of people. So we had Trump on Theo Vaughan.

[Sean Ramaswaram]

Somebody said she's a good roller skater. That's what I heard. Which is crazy.

[Rebecca Jennings]

That's about it.

[Sean Ramaswaram]

Yeah.

[N/A]

Theo Von is a comedian. He's. He was on an MTV reality show and now he just kind of like does this podcast and is really big on TikTok. Again, not a particularly political guy, just kind of talks about comedy. We have Aiden Ross, who is a live streamer and influencer.

[Sean Ramaswaram]

Bro. It feels like, bro, I have like stage fright talking to you guys, Bro. I swear to God, it's like really, really crazy.

[N/A]

Like 23. One of his biggest hits is that he famously looked up the word fascism and could not literally read a single line of it because he can't read.

[Sean Ramaswaram]

A far right authorization on you on ultra nullity. Oh my God. Ultra analogist analyst Benito Mazzulli and Giviantier Genitale.

[N/A]

He did appearances with Jake and Logan Paul.

[Sean Ramaswaram]

And I got news for you. Most of your favorite celebrities, athletes, all of that are secretly conservative.

[N/A]

Prankster, boxer, kind of fighter, influencers. And the Nelson boys, who are kind of of the same ilk, both of them have been accused of, of crypto scams. So it's a real school of Athens when it comes to these, these people. And, and, and when Trump won, they shouted a lot of them out.

[Sean Ramaswaram]

I want to thank some people real quick. I want to thank the nilpo Aiden Ross. Bustin with the boys. And last but not least, the mighty and powerful Joe Rogan.

[N/A]

It was pretty explicitly like this was a strategy to reach young male voters who typically wouldn't really care about politics. But they're listening to these shows.

[Rebecca Jennings]

I get that question as much as almost any question. Do you think that we have aliens coming, you know, flying around or whatever?

[Sean Ramaswaram]

What do you think?

[Rebecca Jennings]

There's no reason not to. I mean, there's no reason not to think that Mars and all these planets don't have life, you know, because, well.

[Sean Ramaswaram]

Mars, we've had probes there and rovers, and I don't think there's any life there.

[Rebecca Jennings]

Well, maybe it's life that we don't.

[Sean Ramaswaram]

Know, but maybe there was life there at one point in time, but we've had no evidence of even bacterial life that exists on Mars, bruh. Do we think this is gonna continue to work in future elections, or was this like a 2024 thing?

[N/A]

I mean, I think in the future, like, candidates will have to go straight to the source. And by that, I mean, like, professional influencers rather than going to mainstream media, because, you know, influencers now wield so much attention. There are so many of them and so many. So many of us are getting our news in these very kind of niche, ified spaces. Like, not everybody is, you know, pulling up a copy of the New York Times in the morning. We all have, you know, our sub sex that we read, our influencers that we watch. Our algorithms are all personalized to us. And so in order to reach a lot of people, you have to kind of go to all these different places where people are getting their news. And that landscape has shifted so much since 2016. And I think any politician that wants to reach a large number of people should learn from that.

[Sean Ramaswaram]

You know, when we opened the show, we were talking about Trump's acceptance speech. When he won the election Tuesday night, a whole lot of dudes spoke. He asked his chief political strategist, a woman, to speak, and she refused.

[Rebecca Jennings]

Susie likes to stay in the background. She's not in the background.

[Sean Ramaswaram]

And then the campaign was just so masculine. It was just a lot of dude energy. It was misogynistic. He never even pronounced his opponent's name correctly. What does this shift towards just appealing to men, say, for women right now?

[N/A]

Yeah, I think the kind of gender war thing that we're seeing in this election and also increasingly online is just. It says so much about where we're at right now, and. And the fact that so many women voted for Trump too Should also say a lot because I report on Internet culture and what I've seen from content targeting young women is a similar shift to the right. And it looks very different from these kind of bro influencers that we were talking about, but it kind of leads you to the same place where, you know, you have these trad wife influencers who are just making, you know, domesticity look very beautiful and ideal.

[Constance Grady]

For Daniel and I, our priority in life is God and family. Everything else comes second.

[N/A]

We just landed after a 10 hour flight and the first thing my husband requests is a hot dog. So instead of running to the store, I just decided to make it myself.

[Constance Grady]

And the truth is there is no higher calling than being a wife and a mother for a woman.

[N/A]

And it's sort of like an escape from, you know, the horrible economy and everything else that's, you know, bad about life. Right now. You have dating content that's like, you know, just use men for their money and all you are your looks and that's how you can bag a rich man and be set for life. And, you know, all of these things, you know, imply that we should just lean more heavily into our gender roles. Like men should be the head of the household and women are there to look pretty and take care of the home. And that's exactly what men are also getting. And so when you have a lot of, you know, people both seeking out this content and being served it, you gotta shift to the right.

[Sean Ramaswaram]

And what about all the women who are like, left out of that rightward shift?

[N/A]

Exactly. Yeah, there's a lot of them. And it's an attempt to kind of put women back in their place to this imagined past where women weren't out here saying, we want the right to our bodies and the right to divorce and the right to speak up against assault.

[Sean Ramaswaram]

Yeah, it feels like a bit of a step back from what we saw in say, 2016, 2017.

[N/A]

Yeah. And I think the Harris campaign kind of sort of implicitly acknowledged that in the sense that, like, there was really no emphasis on her being, you know, what could have been the first female president because, you know, this is what the Clinton campaign did and that failed. They were also seeing the same shifts that are playing out online where people are being turned off a bit by identity politics and over association with gender and instead being, you know, driven to this content that just reinforces these kind of regressive gender stereotypes.

[Sean Ramaswaram]

Rebecca Jennings, Vox.com the Trump campaign was very online. So we're gonna be very online when we return on Today. Explained we're gonna hear about a group of women on TikTok who are responding to feeling left out of this rightward lurch in the United States and they've come up with a solution. They are swearing.

[N/A]

Support for today's show comes from Vanta. Whether you're starting or scaling your company's security program, demonstrating those top notch security practices and establishing trust is more important than ever. Vanta says they can Automate compliance for SoC2, ISO 27001 and so much more, saving you time and money, helping you build customer trust. Plus, Vanta says you can streamline Secur security reviews by automating questionnaires and demonstrating your security posture. Sit up straight with a customer facing trust center, all powered by Vanta AI. According to Vanta, over 8,000 global companies like Atlassian Flow Health and Quora use Vanta to manage risk and provide security in real time. You can get $1,000 off Vanta when you go to Vanta.com explained. That's Vanta.com explained. For $1,000 off.

Weight loss, it needs to be fast and sustainable. Noom GLP1 starts at just $149 and ships to your door in seven days. Take it from Clevoisier who lost 35 pounds on Noom.

It's a psychological thing too. They're definitely teaching how to live a better, healthier lifestyle. Noom is teaching me the habit so I do not have to be on weight loss meds forever.

Don't believe it. Take it from Lauren who lost 22 pounds on Noom. If I come off of the GLP1, it's not going to automatic make my weight. Yo yo back. I'm gonna have good skills and know what to do to take care of myself. $149 GLP ones. Now that's NOOM Smart Noom the smart way to lose weight. Get Started with Noom [e-mail] Real Noom users compensated to provide their story. Individual results may vary. Not all customers will medically qualify for prescription medications. Compounded medications are not reviewed by the FDA for safety, efficacy or quality.

Support for the show comes from Polestar. Innovation is at the heart of every Polestar car and their SUV. Polestar 3 is no different from the intuitive infotainment system to its head turning design. Polestar 3 is for drivers unwilling to compromise. That means merging a spacious, comfortable interior with the torque and handling of a sports car. Now you can go from 0 to 60 in as little as 4.8 seconds and get an EPA estimated range of up to 315 miles per charge. Polestar 3 even allows the driver to optimize the powertrain between performance and range mode, depending on your drive's needs. Experience an uncluttered dashboard showing you everything you want to know and nothing you don't. The innovation doesn't stop there because you can just have Google turn on your favorite podcast and be immersed in 3D sound by Bowers and Wilkins. Polestar has put in the time designing and refining Polestar 3, and that means the time you spend in it will be the best time of your day. Book a test [e-mail].

[Sean Ramaswaram]

Youm'Re listening to Today Explained. Rebecca Jennings from Vox is gone, but Constance Grady, her colleague from Vox, is here. She's a senior correspondent on our Culture team. Constance we heard earlier in the show from Rebecca all about how Donald Trump's campaign was geared toward and even fired up young men in America. We heard from Rebecca that some even young women were into it, but surely not all of them. What's the gamut of reaction you're seeing online?

[Constance Grady]

Yes, so certainly there are some women who are very into the Trump thing, but there are also a lot of young American women online who are just feeling really, really despondent.

[N/A]

I'm just sad.

[Constance Grady]

I'm worried.

[N/A]

Yeah, I just woke up feeling kind of disgusted and ashamed.

A lot of crying. I haven't slept much. A lot of thoughts going through my mind.

[Constance Grady]

Which you know is pretty understandable. Right? So these are women who saw a lot of their peers, both male and female, becoming more and more drawn to the right, embracing this kind of hyper macho anti woman attitude. They saw the overturning of Roe v. Wade, meaning they lost a right they were born with. And then they saw the reelection of the guy who got it overturned in the first place. So in response to all this, a lot of younger women on social media, especially on TikTok, are getting really into the idea of this movement that comes out of South Korea. It is called 4B and it calls for women to boycott men.

[Sean Ramaswaram]

Boycott men.

[Constance Grady]

No heterosexual marriage, no heterosexual dating, no heterosexual sex and no childbearing under any circum. Stop talking to the men.

[N/A]

I haven't been intimate with any men at all. I haven't been on any dates with any men.

We're living life, Boo Boo.

Right.

Especially those of us who are in the 4B who are child free.

[Sean Ramaswaram]

Oh no. It's JD Vance's worst nightmare. Where does this movement come from? South Korea.

[Constance Grady]

Yeah. So this is a movement that developed Among South Korean feminists around the late 2010s. It's part of what the MeToo movement looked like in that country.

[Sean Ramaswaram]

Huh?

[Constance Grady]

Developed mostly on feminist Twitter. It stems out of this other movement called Escape the Corset, which calls for you to cut your hair short, maybe shave your head, give up makeup, and abandon overtly feminine clothes. So that's why you'll sometimes see in the 4B TikToks right now. Women might shave their heads or talk about doing that.

[Sean Ramaswaram]

And what exactly was this a reaction to in South Korea in the 2000 teens?

[Constance Grady]

Escape the Corset and 4B are both responding to really, really specific things in South Korea. The gender wars there have looked very intense over the decade. Escape the Corset is emerging as a response to the intensity of beauty standards in South Korea. A lot of listeners might be familiar with K beauty as a concept like Korean skincare and makeup. It's a huge market. It's really, really fashionable in the U.S. korea is actually the third largest exporter of cosmetics in the world. They have the most plastic surgeons per capita. Plastic surgery is a really common graduation gift there. Most job applications require you to submit a headsh. There's a lot of pressure on people in general, but especially on women to have this really specific, really high maintenance look. And Escape the Corset is about saying, okay, we're going to choose not to participate in those expectations. Right? And it's also a country with a really low birth rate. So the government there has tried a lot of different things to try to get people to have more kids. And there's one really infamous initiative that happens in 2016. That's when the South Korean government releases a birth map that has different cities colored in different shades of pink depending on how many virtual women live there. Ooh, yes. So do a ton of women. This is really dehumanizing. They're like, okay, the government is treating us like cattle, like we're livestock, and 4B as a way of saying, you know what? We are opting out of being breeding animals for you. No, thank you. So that's sort of the intellectual background for these two movements. But we start to see them pick up steam as a response to a string of gender motivated crimes. So in 2016, there's the infamous Gangnam murder, which is when a man stabbed a random woman to death in the Gangnam neighborhood in Seoul.

[Sean Ramaswaram]

Thousands of messages coded over the walls of exit number 10 of Gangnam Station. From words of condolences and sorrow to messages condemning hate crimes against women.

[N/A]

And calling for a safer society.

[Constance Grady]

It breaks my heart and it makes me angry. She died because she's a woman. He said that he did it because women had always ignored him. This sparks this huge response from women across the country. They all start posting the hashtag survived. The idea being, you know, I could have been killed too. I survived only out of luck. There's also this phenomenon in South Korea known as Molka, which is the online distribution of non consensual images of women for sexual purposes. It's a giant, extremely lucrative industry, and it is getting supplied basically by men with pinhole cameras just kind of lurking in creepy public places like subway stations, public bathrooms, even motel rooms to get these images. But what's really surprising about Molka is that only 9% of the perpetrators who are caught actually see a. See jail time. They're mostly fined. So in 2018, this woman's taking a life drawing class with a nude model. During a break, he stays nude. She asks him to cover up. He says no. She kind of irritably snaps a picture of him and posts it online. Sort of the same way that a woman here might photograph like a manspreader or something, kind of to shame him. But in this image, he is nude. She is arrested and charged and sentenced to 10 months in jail under MOCA laws. So to a lot of women, this seems like a huge double standard. And they start protesting and they get more and more involved in these feminist protest movements, including escape the corset. N4B. So this is a way of saying for a lot of women, okay, our only value in the society is our value as objectified sexual objects and as childbearing vessels. And we are not going to do either of those things for you any longer.

[Sean Ramaswaram]

Okay. So our senior researcher, Laura Bullard, couldn't land on an exact number, but it looks like anywhere from 5 to 50,000 Korean women are part of this 4B movement. How's it landing on American TikTok that women are expressing interest in no dating, no sex, no marriage, no kids, Something akin to political lesbianism.

[Constance Grady]

Yes. So I'm seeing quite a few different responses. A lot of posters are getting into the idea of 4B, kind of in the same spirit, that you might just be like, well, well, I'm going to move to Canada. You know, it's not necessarily a serious commitment. It's just kind of something you say as an expression of how mad you are. There are also people who are taking it really seriously. They're like, this is what I'm going to do now? Or they're like, I'm researching it, I'm considering it. But on the other hand, there's also a lot of pretty loud right wing responses. So those are usually along the lines of, like, to all the women who.

[N/A]

Decided to shave their head in Support.

Of this 4B movement, stop it, guys.

[Sean Ramaswaram]

I'm terrified of this 4B movement. Loads of liberal women are not going to produce. That means generations of art majors, journalists, baristas, slam poets, they're all dying out. We're not gonna have any left. I don't know what we're gonna do.

[Constance Grady]

And there are also a fair amount of rape threats in response. There are a lot of comments in response to the 4B videos saying things like, your body, my choice. There are some tweets that are like, you know, women are threatening sex strikes, like they have a choice in it. That's kind of the Edge Lord response to this.

[Sean Ramaswaram]

Is this all just like a discourse on social media or are there actually people in the United States doing this?

[Constance Grady]

I think there are certainly people in the United States practicing celibacy, some of them for political reasons. I am not seeing an organized movement around it here like there is in South Korea. I think it's a way of expressing frustrations and a way of toying with the idea of what your life might look like should you decide to opt out of what our culture tends to ask women's lives to look like. A lot of the popular feminist movements in America over the past decade or so have been kind of widespread expressions of rage. Things like the Women's March and the MeToo movement have been more about expressing. We are very angry about the things that have been done than necessarily about campaigning and making concrete demands. So I think one thing that American feminists might be able to take from 4B is the idea of being very specific about what we want from our country and the action points that we are going to take to try to get there.

[Sean Ramaswaram]

Constance Grady read [e-mail] she's also got a newsletter called Next Page where she drops book recommendations every month. I'm Sean Romas firm Victoria Chamberlain made our show today. She was mixed fixed by Patrick Boyd and Andrea Christian's daughter. Edited by Amina Al Saadi and fact checked by Laura Bullard. This is today Expl.

[N/A]

Support for this podcast comes from Stripe. Stripe is a payments and billing platform supporting millions of businesses around the world, including companies like Uber, BMW and DoorDash. Stripe has helped countless startups and established companies alike reach their growth targets, make progress on their missions and reach more customers globally. The platform offers a suite of specialized features and tools to fast track growth like Stripe Billing, which makes it easy to handle subscription based charges, invoicing and all recurring revenue management needs. You can learn how Stripe helps companies of all sizes make [e-mail] that's stripe.com to learn more. Stripe Make Progress.