Jonathan Hill (3:12)

Okay, how did we go from these modest productions to these even bigger productions that we have now?

Karen Dunnick (3:18)

I would like really go into the 1920s as this moment of advertising, and it becomes a much more democratized sort of celebration that has all of the things that I think a lot of people are familiar with. That there would be a white dress, that the groom would wear, formal attire, that there would be attendants who are wearing a particular kind of clothes. Wedding showers, wedding registries, all of this sort of stuff is very much a thing that becomes much more mainstream in post World War II America. There really is a leaning into consumer expenditure, consumer display, and being part of an America that's very much about prosperity and plenty. And the wedding is a location where Americans are able to display that.

Jonathan Hill (4:01)

What about the media at the time kind of lent itself to that. You know, like these people were getting these images from somewhere, right?

Karen Dunnick (4:09)

Oh, yeah. They were getting these images from everywhere. Brides magazine, when it is first published 1934, is like a New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, like a tri state area kind of thing, expands then to become a nationwide publication. But that's. That's a magazine for people who are going to get married. If you open up Life magazine, there is a Pyrex advertisement, and it is a woman in a wedding dress putting her Pyrex dish into the oven. And we're selling you the dish. We're not selling you the wedding. Except guess what? We're selling you both of those things that everything that is sold can possibly be sold by attaching it to a person dressed like a bride. I think in movies, when Elizabeth Taylor stars in Father of the Bride, like that wedding dress is the wedding dress that everybody wants. A wedding, a church wedding. Well, it's what every girl dreams of. A bridal dress, the orange blossoms, the music. It's something lovely to remember all the

Shelby Wax (5:16)

rest of her life.

Karen Dunnick (5:17)

There are all of these ways that media can capitalize on an expanding marriage, wedding culture. There are even ways that they can say, you know, okay, here are all the ways. You cannot make mistakes for your wedding. Playing on people's anxieties. Like the idea that this is, again, Post World War II America, this is a new place. Like yesterday's news is yesterday's news, and you don't want to get caught up in it.

Shelby Wax (5:45)

Marriage in most of America today is

Karen Dunnick (5:47)

a little different from what it was

Jonathan Hill (5:48)

yesterday because the people are a little different.

Karen Dunnick (5:51)

Your parents don't know what they're talking about when it comes to getting married now because they got married in the 1930s. And that's. You don't want a depression wedding. You want a 1950s wedding. So just sort of like laying a foundation for this is new and this is modern and previous generations couldn't possibly understand. So you better rely on the expertise that's available to you. During the 1960s and into the 1970s, with the advent of the counterculture, with the origins of women's liberation and a women's movement, feminists are still getting married. But when they get married, they're like, I will keep my own name. I will not be given away by a man at this wedding. I will be the decider of my own fate and walk myself down the aisle. Or, you know, the sort of traditional love, honor and obey. Let's get the obey out of there.

Jonathan Hill (6:45)

Every woman gets to choose, and that is women's lib.

Karen Dunnick (6:49)

1960s into 1970s. You have people who are moving away from the sort of reception hall and saying, let's do it outside. Let's commune with nature. People go wild. Cause like, some very few, but some brides are like, yes, I'm gonna wear some pants.

Jonathan Hill (7:03)

Ooh, getting wild.

Karen Dunnick (7:05)

Yeah, exactly. What will happen next?

Jonathan Hill (7:07)

What was the wedding of the 80s? Was there like something that. It was like, hey, y', all, this is the 80s and this is what weddings should be.

Karen Dunnick (7:14)

Oh, yes, there was. And it's when Diana marries Prince Charles and people have like special English tea parties and get up early and watch the tv and look at her coming in like, her carriage. And she is in an enormous white dress.

Mikayla Lawton (7:37)

The wedding dress of Lady Diana.

Jonathan Hill (7:39)

It's in ivory, pure silk taffety.

Groom (Unnamed) (7:41)

And look at it. Isn't it fairytale?

Karen Dunnick (7:43)

She's gonna be a princess. That there is definitely like this sense of this is a fairy tale wedding.

Jonathan Hill (7:50)

So my early ideas around weddings were in part going to them with my family, but also shows on tlc. What were those? And how did they have an impact on what we expected from weddings at the time?

Karen Dunnick (8:07)

Yeah, I think that sort of like late 90s, early aughts were really influential for people. Like a kind of reality TV that people really watched it, like, loved it.

Jonathan Hill (8:19)

Emmanuella, are you saying yes to the dress? Which of these brides will see her groom step out of the prize winners limo?

Shelby Wax (8:27)

Find out after four Weddings.

Karen Dunnick (8:31)

And I think it was sort of part and parcel of the media of that time period, too, when, like, glossy magazines were still all over the place that InStyle had. InStyle Weddings. InStyle Celebrity Weddings. Like, I think in some ways, too, like, teaching them what they should be doing. Like, we're all going to go to a David's Bridal.

Groom (Unnamed) (8:48)

If you are getting married, you love David's Bridal.

Karen Dunnick (8:53)

Creating a kind of like, we all know what it looks like, and we all know what this process is, and we all know what to expect when we go do it. I would also say that people sometimes behaved poorly on those shows and there was a kind of enjoyment in or, like, voyeurism. But I still think. Also think enjoyment and, like, a superiority in being like, oh, I would never be like that. Or can you imagine somebody is like that?

Jonathan Hill (9:19)

Yeah. Like Bridezilla.

Karen Dunnick (9:20)

Yeah. And I would say, like, early 21st century. Bridezilla is definitely a language that, like, everybody is using all the time.

Jonathan Hill (9:29)

So we've talked about magazines, movies, reality tv, but I feel like the Internet really supercharged the weddings arms race, too. Right.

Karen Dunnick (9:39)

I think in, like, a lot of different ways. Online registries, Pinterest, of course, to be like, oh, I'm gonna take these ideas. Who needs a wedding planner when I can, like, find this and, like, sometimes, like, do it myself? And then, like, very clearly, what's going on with Facebook or Instagram or are we going to, like, hashtag our wedding or ask people not to post any pictures of it because we want to have some, like, autonomy over that or, like, what is the timed release that. I think it's. It's opened up. Did you use the word supercharge? Yeah, absolutely. But. And I think also, like, presents a lot of different ways that people can navigate what they want their weddings to be and. Or say about them. It really is staking a claim on where you are and who you want to be with. And for me, that's. That's the ongoing appeal of it, because otherwise, why would you be like, yes, I could put a down payment on a house or I could have this party.

Jonathan Hill (10:45)

So weddings are a way to broadcast who we are to people. And that audience goes way beyond who's on the guest list. That's up next. Support for Explain it to Me comes from Starbucks. There's a palpable energy to storytelling, and it's an energy we harness to bring you a special series like this one. With that in mind, it's worth remembering the little things we do in community to energize ourselves. Like sharing a cool, brightly flavored drink over conversation under the afternoon sun. It's a refreshing ritual that can be perfectly captured by the Starbucks new energy refresher. It comes in great flavors. Mango, dragon fruit, strawberry, acai, mango, strawberry, plus a handful of tasty variations with lemonade or coconut milk like the pink energy drink. The point is, nobody is immune to a little slump in energy, especially in the afternoon. The science is clear on that. The key is remembering. There's always a path forward to feeling renewed and re energized. Try the all new energy refreshers at Starbucks. It's explain it to me. I'm J.Q. and you know you had an excellent wedding. If Shelby Wax knows about it, strike a pose. She's the contributing weddings editor at Vogue, meaning she gets to pick which weddings end up in the storied magazine's online photo essays.

Shelby Wax (12:27)

They're a big feature with, you know, an edit of maybe about 40 to 80 photos from the wedding. This beautiful mix of images that really capture the essence of the day. The details of the day tell the story. And then we also have a wonderful feature where we talk about your love story, the entire process of planning the wedding, those details that go into, you know, choosing the fashion, your experience, and how you felt on the day. And I love a rom com, and I'm like, I'm just telling a love story here.

Jonathan Hill (13:02)

So we're talking about how complicated and how expensive weddings have gotten through the years. Does a wedding need to be super expensive to get into Vogue territory? Like, I don't know. When I think of Vogue, I think of glamour, and glamour is often expensive.

Shelby Wax (13:19)

Well, okay. Weddings, especially these days, are so, so expensive. But at the same time, it's not always the ones that spend a lot of money. Sometimes the ones I see that spend a lot of money are really not of the certain caliber I want to feature because it seems like they're just throwing money at something and it doesn't feel intentional. My biggest thing, I always think is when I look at these photos, do I want to be a guest at this wedding?

Jonathan Hill (13:47)

Ballpark. What's the average cost of a wedding these days? Let's say, you know, we're having 100 guests at this imaginary wedding.

Shelby Wax (13:55)

I would say, like in New York City, the average wedding is probably a hundred thousand dollars.

Jonathan Hill (14:03)

Wow.

Shelby Wax (14:04)

Like the. Just based on the costs and how much it is for. For a hundred people, yes. Like the cost for catering, the cost for photography, flowers, food. You know, say if you're somewhere in the Midwest, I would say the average cost is probably closer to 30 to 40,000. It just really depends on the scale and also the vendors. You're choo. You know, some of the top, top wedding photographers in the world charge $100,000, but there's other ones who charge $5,000. And that's a very big difference in your bottom line budget. You know, I talk to friends getting married and all that, and I, I would say every single person I go to, and I'm like, so how much over budget are you right now? And I've never heard someone say they were under budget.

Jonathan Hill (14:51)

Wow. I want to get into the trends of it all. So we have an idea of how online trends move and how quickly they come and go. Things move a lot faster now. But how do wedding trends pop up? Does it come from somewhere like Vogue? Like, I don't know, is there a bridal version of the cerulean sweater monologue from the Devil Wears Prada?

Shelby Wax (15:13)

And it's sort of comical how you

Jonathan Hill (15:15)

think that you've made a choice that exempts you from the fashion industry when in fact, you. You're wearing a sweater that was selected

Shelby Wax (15:22)

for you by the people in this room. Oh, for sure. I mean, I think the wedding trend cycle has moved so, so much faster in the past few years, mainly due to social media. I would say there's now very much like, oh, this is the trend of the year, and your wedding's going to feel dated if you're, you know, doing like, this year. Everyone's talking about. Chartreuse and burgundy is apparently a very big color palette trend that's going on.

Jonathan Hill (15:51)

Is anyone else getting attacked by the

Karen Dunnick (15:53)

violent chartreuse and burgundy wedding content?

Maris Lawton (15:57)

You chose chartreuse and burgundy for your wedding colors, thinking that it was going to be timeless.

Jonathan Hill (16:02)

I want whatever you're on.

Shelby Wax (16:04)

It can be a bit of an issue, I think, these days too, because I hear from planners, people are especially a lot of their Gen Z clients are so focused on the social media and that aspect of performance a little bit, that they're really wanting to be on top of the trend cycles. And then they're saying, well, I want to do this brand new thing. And I saw this thing via ChatGPT that I pulled up, and a lot of times their planners are like, well, first off, this isn't in your budget. This isn't even possible because this was AI generated. Or it just becomes something that's so overdone at a certain point. You think the thing that feels original is going to be Everywhere. Because that's what's being blasted all over your Pinterest page.

Jonathan Hill (16:51)

Yeah. When it comes to weddings, I feel like there are two things I hear, like, one, people being obsessed with being original. And then on the other hand, it's people obsessed with, like, I don't want it to look like a trend. It needs to look timeless.

Maris Lawton (17:02)

Listen, I know that there's some people that say that there is no such thing as a timeless wedding, but truly,

Lauren Miller (17:06)

there are things that just like, never

Shelby Wax (17:07)

go out of style.

Karen Dunnick (17:08)

I was told by our guests quite

Jonathan Hill (17:09)

a few times that our wedding was

Karen Dunnick (17:11)

timeless, and that was my number one goal when designing my wedding.

Shelby Wax (17:15)

Right. I think it's. Well, the timeless thing is just ubiquitous. I think there's a degree of tradition that comes with weddings and something classic about them anyway. So I think that's where people hearken to the idea of I want it to be timeless. I'm. This is something we're going to be looking at generations ahead, and I want it to still feel cool and beautiful and something that I look at the photos and don't cringe at. I understand it from, like, more that perspective, but, you know, what we're. Everything is a time capsule. I mean, there's a degree of, you know, people wanting to feel original and unique. But original and unique can often go along with what is popular at the time.

Jonathan Hill (18:02)

As someone who writes and consults in the wedding industry, I don't know, have things gotten too extravagant and over the top? Have we kind of lost sight of what's important?

Shelby Wax (18:12)

Yes and no. I think, you know, I'm a very big proponent of do you. And if you want to have a very extravagant wedding and you can reasonably afford it and, you know, make it work, great, go for it. I think a degree of extravagance is okay on your wedding because when else are you going to have this big party and, you know, all the people you love there, but at the same time, you know, do it within reason and, you know, keep it authentic as well.

Jonathan Hill (18:58)

Sometimes when you want to go big on authenticity, you have to go small. That's coming up.

Ariana Asburu (19:16)

This is advertiser content from Starbucks. Jonclin, I think of you as the queen of answering questions.

Jonathan Hill (19:23)

Oh, my gosh. Thank you. What question do you have for me today?

Ariana Asburu (19:26)

Okay, talk to me about energy levels. Why is it that it's. Sometimes I feel total ways of exhaustion.

Jonathan Hill (19:33)

So, like, you can't focus, you're falling asleep, that kind of thing.

Ariana Asburu (19:36)

Exactly. And then at some points, I'm just totally fine. Why Is that happening and is there anything I can do to help it?

Jonathan Hill (19:44)

Yeah. So the peaks and slumps throughout the day, we have all been there. So that's mostly because of our circadian rhythm. It's basically the cycle our body goes through in a 24 hour time period and it controls things like metabolism, hormones and energy.

Ariana Asburu (20:00)

So that's like the reason I feel tired before bed and well rested in the morning.

Jonathan Hill (20:04)

It's our circadian rhythm. It's a totally natural biological response.

Ariana Asburu (20:08)

So when I want to just close my eyes and put my head down on my desk, what can I do about that?

Jonathan Hill (20:13)

According to my research, one of the best things you can do is get up and walk around, get your blood flowing, maybe call up a friend and grab a coffee or a tea.

Ariana Asburu (20:21)

That sounds really nice right now.

Jonathan Hill (20:23)

You want to go do it?

Groom (Unnamed) (20:24)

Yeah.

Jonathan Hill (20:25)

Yeah.

Ariana Asburu (20:26)

Long story short, we all need moments throughout the day to refresh. And Starbucks has you covered with their new energy refreshers Your go to lift. To help you stay energized throughout the day, try the all new energy refreshers at Starbucks.

Groom (Unnamed) (20:45)

I'm getting married pretty soon to the love of my life. She's fantastic. Really great. And we're both on board with a small wedding. We wanted to spend about 30,000 and then realistically realized it was going to be about 60,000 before we called it and decided to do a micro wedding near to home very last minute.

Jonathan Hill (21:04)

Instead it's jq Back with more. Explain it to me. Lauren Miller is the founder of the Tiny Wedding Collective, which, you guessed it specializes in tiny weddings.

Lauren Miller (21:16)

We define a tiny wedding or a micro wedding as 50 guests or fewer. I'd say our average guest count that we work with is somewhere around 30, 35 guests.

Jonathan Hill (21:27)

I'm curious why couples opt for it. Is it about price or is it about something else?

Lauren Miller (21:33)

So for some couples it is about budget, but for a lot of couples, we find that it's more so about not wanting to be the center of attention. You know, some couples say like, hey, like I don't want to be surrounded by the 200 people, you know, a quarter of which maybe are my parents, friends, or people that I've never met before. And then the other reason that we get a lot is being busy professionals, especially here in D.C. and not wanting to spend all of their extra time and money planning a wedding. We hear the phrase decision fatigue all of the time. And I think something that micro weddings can relieve is decision fatigue.

Jonathan Hill (22:16)

We got calls from a few listeners who said they were fine with a Small wedding, but their families are the ones who wanted the larger ones.

Groom (Unnamed) (22:23)

And we were lucky enough to have our families help. They each gave us $20,000. But those $20,000 also came up a lot of expectations and guest lists. We wanted to keep it small, but after a fairly large financial help from some family, they. They had requests to go big, and so we had to kind of honor that request.

Lauren Miller (22:51)

We always do get couples with parents who I think are not as thrilled that their children are choosing this path for their wedding. But I will say that after the micro wedding is over, what I hear a lot from parents is, oh, that was still really monumental. That was still really special. You know, thank you for including XYZ traditions. So I think people are surprised at how beautiful and, you know, still important and monumental a micro wedding can be.

Jonathan Hill (23:22)

That's what the Lawtons experience. They're a couple who lives in Washington,

Maris Lawton (23:25)

D.C. i'm Maris Lawton.

Mikayla Lawton (23:27)

And I am Mikayla Lawton.

Maris Lawton (23:29)

So we met on Hinge.

Jonathan Hill (23:30)

Ooh, an actual Hinge success story. Okay.

Maris Lawton (23:33)

Yes, we. Yeah, our first date was at a beer garden. We just kind of fell for each other really fast. Got married after dating for 18 months and, you know, the rest is history. So we got married on October 12th of 2025, which was a Sunday of last year. Our wedding was very small. It was 18 people, including us. So it was really just immediate friends and family. Everyone traveled in, and our wedding was at a really cute bed and breakfast here in D.C. so all of our guests and us stayed at the bed and breakfast. We all slept there for two nights, and then our actual ceremony and reception were held there as well. And it was just a really wonderful and intimate time that I don't think think bigger weddings typically get when you have, you know, 100 plus people.

Jonathan Hill (24:42)

Yeah. What were some of, like, the little details and, like, activities or, like, what were some of the things that you all think made the wedding? Yalls wedding?

Mikayla Lawton (24:50)

I would say Maris and I are not very, like, traditional people, so we were not going to have a traditional wedding. We weren't going to go to the church. We weren't going to have, you know, a random person officiate us. Something that we both really wanted was we. We had personal officiants. So my sister and then Maris's cousin, who we're very close with, officiated our wedding. And that was really beautiful because they were able to share, like, a story about each of us and just kind of made it a lot more personal. I think we picked really fun music to walk down the aisle to. I walked down to an instrumental version of Pink Pony Club by Chapel Roan. Maris walked to Noah Khan. And then when we finished the ceremony, we walked out to Hot to Go by Chapel Road. So that was super fun.

Groom (Unnamed) (25:46)

5, 6, 7, 8.

Mikayla Lawton (25:50)

And then we also included a surprise drag Queen performance by Ms. Serotonin. That was a really hard surprise to keep for so long cuz we were so excited. And on top of that, at the end of the wedding, we ended up jumping in the pool in our dresses.

Jonathan Hill (26:15)

Did you all always want to have a tiny wedding? How'd you come to that decision?

Maris Lawton (26:20)

So Michaela didn't want a wedding.

Jonathan Hill (26:22)

And.

Maris Lawton (26:23)

And if I could have had it my way, I would have had hundreds of people. Like, it would have been ginormous. But also money played a factor into that. So our compromise was the small wedding. And it turned out to be literally the most perfect day ever. I wouldn't change it for a thing. There's no doubt in my mind. I wouldn't go back and have a big wedding if we redid it.

Jonathan Hill (26:47)

Okay, so you all did this tiny wedding, and weddings tend to be expensive. What did this run, y'?

Groom (Unnamed) (26:54)

All?

Maris Lawton (26:54)

Our wedding was around 30,000. Everything included. Like, including our dresses, our wedding planner fees, photographer, the bnb, everything. Our tiny wedding was a little more expensive, I would argue, because we're. We did it in Washington, D.C. proper, more expensive than it would be in a more rural area. So I would consider what is a special place that you would want to get married at? I think that is probably one of the first things. Second, I would say, what's going to make your wedding you? All of our little details that we did. The drag queen, the jumping in the pool, the, you know, I made our centerpieces for our table. Like, all these little details. What is going to make the wedding you? And how are you going to kind of shine through on that special day?

Mikayla Lawton (27:50)

Like, there's no wrong way to do a wedding. Every single wedding you go to is going to be different. Like, yes, there is the, like, stereotypical things people do at American weddings. And I think the ones that people enjoy the most as a guest are the ones that are so authentic to you and are so special. Like, just make it such a fun experience and make it whatever you would like because, you know, you want it to be the day that you remember. And it's just, have it be a party.

Maris Lawton (28:24)

I don't even know how I could follow that. Yeah,

Jonathan Hill (28:36)

That's it for this week. Thanks to the lawtons and all the couples that called in to tell us about your wedding wishing each of you a long and happy marriage. If you're into a more low stakes commitment, consider supporting the show by becoming a VOX member. Members can listen to this podcast with no ads. Go to vox.commembers to learn more. We would also love your help on an episode we're doing about prepping. How ready do you feel for disaster? Do you have a go bag? If you do, what's the most important item in it? Maybe it's something super practical or maybe it's personal. Tell us 1-800-618-8545 or email askvoxox.com this episode was produced by Ariana Asburu. It was edited by Avishai Aartsi, Fact Checked by Melissa Hirsch and engineered by Brandon McFarlane and David Tadashore. Our executive producer is Miranda Kennedy and I'm your host, Jonathan Hill. Thank you so much for letting me listening. I'll talk to you soon. Bye. Support for Explain it to Me comes from Starbucks Burnout can happen to anyone, but there's always a way to get your flow back. Take your afternoon slump, for instance. It's a phenomenon we all know too well. Sometimes all it takes is a reassuring word from a friend or a sip of a refreshing drink. So the next time you're looking to refocus and reenergize, you can hit up a friend and grab a Starbucks New Energy Refresher together. Try the all new Energy Refreshers at Starbucks.