D (3:24)

What?

B (3:24)

Day night will be the wildest party on your island. You've got mail. We'll be in the BVI St. Barts area over the holidays. Is there a good time to visit? We're seeing Howard Lutnick. He said he cut ties with Epstein in 2005, but there are emails which indicate he was planning a trip and seemingly went to Epstein's island in 2012. My wife and I decided that I will never be in the room with that disgusting person ever again. So I was never in the room with him socially for business or even philanthropy. That guy. I was there. I wasn't going because he's gross. And so we're seeing a lot of these rich and powerful people have more connections with Epstein than we thought. And we're already seeing the fallout for that in real time. We're seeing Brad Karp, the chairman of Paul Weiss, the law firm stepped down overnight as chairman. He's still working as a lawyer there. He was revealed to have emailed Epstein many, many times. He seemed to give him confidential information about a client he asked him for. Favorite to help his son intern with Woody Allen. We're seeing. Oh, yeah, there's a lot of Woody Allen, Epstein overlap in this. Just going through some of his scheduling. It's like, oh, dinner with Woody tonight, lunch with Woody, coffee with Woody. He actually helped Woody Allen's daughter, one of them, get into Bard. It seems like. So again, there's so much overlap in terms of who you think of as kind of creepy men.

A (4:59)

In addition to American businessmen, we've seen more powerful elites from around the world be named in these files. Right. Can you share some of them and how they're connected with Epstein?

B (5:12)

Yeah. So Prince Andrew, we've known he's connected to Epstein or former Prince. The artist formerly known as Prince Andrew has been connected to Epstein for years.

E (5:24)

You had the most extraordinary ability to bring extraordinary people together. And that's the bit that I remember is going to the dinner parties where you would meet academics, politicians, people from the United Nations. I mean, it was a cosmopolitan group of what I would describe as US Eminence.

B (5:46)

There is in these emails, evidence of seeming. It seems like sex trafficking. It seems like him asking Epstein to be Set up with women. Additionally, we're seeing Sarah Ferguson, Prince Andrew's ex wife, speaking to Epstein in a very friendly way. Same with the Crown Princess of Norway. And this is all, by the way, after 2008 when he was convicted of prostitution with a minor. So it's after that. And same with most of these communications, for what it's worth. We're also seeing Peter Mendelsohn. He was the former British Ambassador to the US he resigned from his position in the House of Lords, and we're seeing fallout for that. Keir Starmer, the Prime Minister of the UK Is under fire at the moment because apparently he knew about some of Peter Mendelsohn's ties to Epstein when he was named ambassador.

E (6:40)

I want to say this. I am sorry. Sorry for what was done to you. Sorry that so many people with power failed you. Sorry for having believed Mandelson's lies and appointed him.

B (6:59)

So we're gonna continue to see this fallout around the world.

A (7:03)

Yeah. How is this being received in the uk, do you know?

B (7:07)

Yeah, the Labor Party there is really not happy with Keir Starmer. I think that they're, you know, I think the Prince Andrew thing was so disgusting to a lot of people in the UK And I think that reverberated for a really long time. And we're now seeing Starmer under a lot of he. And I mean, there are calls for him to resign. I don't know if that will happen, but it's definitely not going away over there.

A (7:32)

We've seen more repercussions to foreign leaders than to Americans. Why do you think that is?

B (7:39)

You know, I think that a lot of the leaders in America that we're really. The names that are jumping out to us are business leaders. They're in the private sector. And in that, I mean, they're gonna be. We're kind of gonna see how that plays out. Right. We saw with Brad Karp, we're seeing. The NFL is investigating, not formally, but it's looking into Steve Tisch, the owner of the Giants. We're gonna really kind of see how the pieces fall as we learn more and more. I also think that the, you know, the repercussions, wise. The whole point of the document dump is not to find new evidence for people to go under fire. It's for the Department of Justice to prove everything it did, that we did not leave any stone unturned. We looked into everybody. We thought about prosecuting these people. We went down those rabbit holes. We couldn't find enough to criminally prosecute them other than Ghislaine, Maxwell and Epstein. So I think that this is the DOJ saying we did everything we could. We couldn't find enough criminal. There might, it might be creepy, it might be sleazy, it might be gross, it might be unethical, but there wasn't enough criminal goods in this to, to prosecute.

A (8:54)

I wonder, you know, it's, it's. It feels like holding these two things as once, like not enough to prosecute a crime, but it is very creepy and bad. I, I guess. What do consequences look like if they're not charging them? Does that mean they're not guilty? Like, where do we go from here?

B (9:10)

Yeah, I think it's kind of. A lot of it is up to the public. Right. I feel like now it's up to the public to. If we're not okay with something that we read in this, whether it's from a politician or a business leader, to really to push back and to say, this is not okay. We want this leader out, we want out of government, out of their business, whatever it is. It's kind of up to the court of public opinion. Now that said, we are going to see some of these people testify in front of Congress later this month. The Clintons are going to testify Les Wexner, who is, you know, in a draft document by the DOJ as a co conspirator, a potential co conspirator for. Of Epstein's. So we are going to see these people questioned by the government. We might get more answers and we might. Then it won't be criminal charges necessarily, but we might get repercussions from the public and there might be more consequences in that way. You have to remember these documents are such a mess that a lot of them are really hard to understand. There's so many just everyday emails mixed in with really incriminating emails. So we kind of, we need that explanation. And I think that everybody hopes that these, when these people testify, we're going to get more of an understanding of what actually happened. There are also files that the DOJ didn't release. There are 200,000 documents that the government said it will not release. We don't know what's in those. We may never know what's in those. But there could be things in there that eventually do get revealed. And they're also. I don't think any news organization has been able to go through all 3 million documents, no matter how many, how much manpower they've devoted to this. So, you know, we're going to continue to get revelation after revelation.

A (10:53)

What should the public take away from all of this? This whole thing?

B (10:59)

Yeah, I mean, I think it's important to understand how the very, very, very wealthy, the very, very powerful interact with each other. How they speak about women, how they use each other. People are using Epstein, Epstein's using other people. And also how many people can't be taken at their word. Right. So many people denied having a connection to Epstein or visiting his island or talking to him after his conviction in 2008, but they were lying. And I think it's really important that we hold people to account and we don't take their word at face value. And, and also, I mean, one thing that really I found interesting is how much these people put into writing. It was almost like they believed they were above the law or above repercussion. And not everybody, obviously, but some very rich and powerful people think they're immune to consequences. And it's really up to the public, now that this is out there, what consequences they face.

A (12:07)

Madeline Berg is a correspondent at Business Insider. She covers wealth and power. Up next, how a journalist who's covered Epstein from the start is reading these files.

D (12:26)

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A (14:34)

This is today Explained Vicki Ward is a bestselling author and investigative reporter. She first encountered Jeffrey Epstein in the early 2000s. She was a reporter for Vanity Fair and was writing a piece about how this man got all this money when she stumbled upon some even more disturbing information. Now, 20 years later, her name has popped up in the Epstein files, but kind of in a good way.

H (15:00)

Well, you mean because he's trashing me? He's trashing me. He sends my boss at the time, Graydon Carter, then the editor of Vanity Fair, a note trashing me and my reporting, and he says it's defamatory. And he writes me a long, long fax, which I remember receiving, telling me what a dreadful journalist I am. And both of these missives are on the topic of Annie and Maria Farmer, two sisters who I'd spoken to back then I on the record and who had told me about the abuse they had suffered at the hands in Maria's case, at the hands of both Jeffrey and Ghislaine Maxwell. Annie Farmer was more focused on Ghislaine Maxwell at the time, but she also had a horrible experience with Jeffrey. Annie had been underage at the time of the abuse and so and they were very brave. They were on the record. I didn't find any other girls women at the time. They were the only two and I didn't back then have a sense of the scale of this operation that we now know to be horrendously enormous. But I did have them. And yet Epstein's threats to my boss, compounded by the fact he visited the Vanity Fair offices at the time behind my back, were enough to get the pharmacist's cut from the article, which was a truly terrible, terrible, terrible thing to happen, because what it meant was that I had inadvertently exposed them to Jeffrey and Ghislaine. I think Ghislaine then went on to make Maria Farmer's life horrendous, terrified, threatened her, and we hadn't provided the protection that printing their allegations would have given them. It also meant that it wasn't until well over a year later that the FBI phoned me, because somebody must have told them that I'd, you know, spoken to the Farmers. And as we know, the FBI investigation took a long time, but ultimately, in 2008, it did wind up with the ridiculously cushy plea deal and the non prosecution agreement that Jeffrey Epstein struck in Florida. But meanwhile, hundreds of other girls, children went on to be abused and trafficked by Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. So what happened back in 2000, that was the fall of 2002, when I was reporting this piece, unfortunately, is a really tragic, tragic mistake.

F (18:45)

Mm.

A (18:47)

I. I wonder what it's like for you, as a person who started reporting this, you know, back in 2002, to see this story become so huge, for it to be like a household name and for people to wonder what's in the files. What has that evolution been like for you to see?

H (19:07)

Well, mixed, to be honest. I'm not an Epstein victim, but he did make my life hell. And, you know, in the first few years, to be honest, I was glad. I never really wanted to hear his name again. I had a complicated pregnancy when I was dealing with him. And the irony is that, you know, I'd been assigned to actually profile him because my boss thought it would be easy for me. He lived in New York, I lived in New York, I wouldn't have to get on a plane. I'd done some financial journalism before this. You know, I know how to sort. I know I understand money and wealth management and things like that. And so nobody expected that this man would. Would. Would turn on me and start threatening me and threatening my unborn children and tell me that he knew where I'd be giving birth and telling me he'd get my husband fired. You know, some of the threats were stupid, but some of them were really horrible. And I did end up going into labor much too soon. And I did then have my two babies, who, you know, weighed two pounds and two and a half pounds, you know, in the hospital. We had to ask for security for them for two months because I really was terrified that Jeffrey Epstein would be coming to harm them. And so after all of that, to be honest, I wanted to forget about Jeffrey Epstein. I wanted to sort of normalize the whole thing in my mind. But then the years ticked on and I began to realize that it wasn't just the farmers, that the scale of this thing was potentially enormous. And I did feel, to be honest, that the idea of Jeffrey Epstein walking into the office of my boss, Graydon Carter, behind my back during the fact checking process, I'd by that time been put on bed rest. And for me to have been cut out of the loop of the decision making on the piece, I did feel that smacked of the good old boys club, boys protecting boys. Graydon Carter was a bachelor at the time. You know, he was running around dating all sorts of people. And I. The whole thing made me sick to my stomach and angry, frankly. Really, really angry. And I think, you know, now what do I feel? I feel that it's very important that these victim survivors get justice. But even so, even so, what's happened is botched. The survivors I know, Annie Farmer's, you know, spoken out. All the, all the documents are still not out there.

A (22:24)

You know, some of the people mentioned in the files come across worse than others. What does it mean just for your name to pop up in the Epstein files?

H (22:34)

Nothing. I mean, you know, particularly in the way that my name comes up. I'm thrilled. I'm absolutely thrilled. I think Julie Brown's pretty thrilled that, you know, he sends emails around viewing her as a problem. And he clearly viewed John Connolly, who was a friend of mine, another great investigative journalist who co authored a book with my co author, James Patterson, clearly viewed him as the problem too. So that's the, you know, people, I think that's not a problem. I think that it's absurd. Some of the redactions make no sense. There's a woman, Melanie Walker, who's a person of great global influence, who was a Neptune protege. He paid for her to go through college. She became a neuroscientist, and she ended up going out with Prince Andrew, and she ended up being the Republican partner of Steve Sinosky, who was Bill Gates number two at Microsoft, and she ended up on the board of the World Bank. That's a pretty influential person who is intensely loyal to Jeffrey Epstein. And I noticed that her names have been redacted. And it seems absurd to me as to why that would be.

A (23:54)

What questions do you still have about the case?

H (23:57)

Well, I still want to understand the money. I'm not sure I'm ever going to get an answer to that because without the money, there would have been no sex crimes. There's no evidence that Jeffrey Epstein went around abusing teenagers before he had hundreds of millions of dollars and before he was able to hide essentially behind the walls of his enormous mansion and on his private island. And I think there's probably a lot of financial criminality. I mean, what did he do? He wasn't trading in the markets. He was using inside information, as we now know via the Mandelson exchange, to make a buck. But he was also putting people's money offshore and hiding it. And the problem with that is that prosecutors tend not to like to spend taxpayer money chasing things they think they may not be able to get. And hidden money is hard to find. And Epstein knew what he was doing. And you know, for me, that is the big frustration. I think.

A (25:22)

If the public is going to take something real from these latest files, what should it be?

H (25:29)

Well, unfortunately, I think there's a two tier system that exists in this country and that it's one rule for the uber rich and one rule for everybody else.

A (25:50)

Vicky Ward, investigative reporter and New York Times best selling author. Today's show was produced by Dustin Desoto, edited by Aminah Al Saadi Fact checked by Andrea Lopez Crusado with help from Ariana Espuru and engineered by Patrick Boyd. I'm Jonathan Hill. This is Today Explained it.

B (26:34)

Sam.