The Epstein Files are still a "cover-up"

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Epstein Files are still a 'cover-up'"

Podcast: Today, Explained (Vox)
Date: December 22, 2025
Hosts: Sean Rameswaram, Noel King
Guests: Hayley Fuchs (Politico reporter), Barry Levine (investigative journalist)

Overview

This episode dives deep into the controversial release — or lack thereof — of the Jeffrey Epstein investigation files by the Department of Justice (DOJ), highlighting bipartisan outrage and claims of an ongoing “cover-up.” It assesses the political battle over transparency, evaluates the minimal new information made public, and explores Ghislaine Maxwell's role and future following her conviction, with expert insights from Politico’s Hayley Fuchs and investigative journalist Barry Levine.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Incomplete Release of the Epstein Files

• Congressional Mandate & DOJ Actions

  • Congress passed a law requiring all Epstein files be released by a set deadline, seeking clarity on Epstein’s finances and criminal network. ([00:00-02:35])
  • DOJ released a much smaller batch than expected, citing conflicts with other laws (such as privacy/embarrassment clauses)—lawmakers assert this excuse does not hold up under the new mandate. ([02:57])
  • Hayley Fuchs: “Definitely not. ...DOJ said they released a smaller tranche… the bill… required them to release materials by Friday. ...lawmakers are saying that DOJ is breaking the law by not fully releasing the files.” ([02:57])

• Nature of What Was Released

  • Most documents were already public or heavily redacted; little to no new substantive information surfaced. ([03:47])
  • Example materials: some photos (including Bill Clinton swimming with Ghislaine Maxwell), “thousands of photographs, some graphic and heavily redacted," and reports dating Epstein investigations to nearly 30 years ago. ([04:20-04:48])

• Controversies and Oddities

  • Some images (implicating public figures, including Donald Trump) were removed, then re-added, allegedly to protect potential victims’ identities. DOJ denies deliberate favoritism or political protection. ([04:48-05:39])
  • Hayley Fuchs: "Some images appeared to actually disappear from the DOJ website… DOJ has rejected the idea they're trying to protect Trump in the release of these files.” ([04:48-05:27])

2. Reactions from Lawmakers: “Outrage” and Threats of Action

• Bipartisan Criticism and Legal Threats

  • Both parties blast DOJ for noncompliance.
  • Notable figures: Marjorie Taylor Greene (R) demands full release; Chuck Schumer (D) urges legal action against DOJ.
  • Ro Khanna (D) and Thomas Massie (R) threaten impeachment against Attorney General Pam Bondi and consider criminal contempt for noncompliance. ([06:10-06:50])
  • Quote: “The quickest way...to get justice for these victims is to bring inherent contempt against Pam Bondi...” (Ro Khanna, [06:50])

• Stalemate and Political Motives

  • DOJ says it’s impossible to comply fully by the deadline; Congress says otherwise.
  • Each side may be using the controversy for political leverage in the run-up to 2026 elections.
  • Hayley Fuchs: “This tragic saga...has really morphed into a kind of political firestorm and flashpoint...Democrats trying to stoke division...Republicans acting defensively.” ([09:10])

3. Ghislaine Maxwell and the Files: What’s (Not) New?

• Lack of New Details
  • Grand jury materials about Maxwell were released but so heavily redacted as to be useless. ([07:49])
  • Maxwell’s recent legal maneuvers (appealing her conviction, seeking clemency/pardon) get airtime but no new substantive evidence has appeared to change her case status.
  • Trump’s unpredictability leaves the door open for a potential pardon, much to victims' dismay.
  • “The Supreme Court...rejected today an appeal by Ghislaine Maxwell to overturn her conviction.” ([08:23])
  • "I think Ghislaine Maxwell's request for some kind of reprieve...is really a wild card in this saga. You never really know with Trump what he's going to do.” (Hayley Fuchs, [07:49])

4. Public Perception & Theories: Will Transparency Ever Satisfy?

• Unquenchable Demand for Answers
  • The episode notes that no matter what is released, many will likely believe that vital truths remain hidden.
  • Fuchs: “I don't know that the American public is ever going to be fully satisfied…It's unclear if we are ever going to see...people who helped Epstein held accountable.” ([10:18])

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Deep Dive: Ghislaine Maxwell’s Backstory and Role (Interview with Barry Levine, [14:45-27:27])

Her Origins

• Raised amidst privilege and dysfunction as the youngest daughter of media mogul Robert Maxwell; subjected to intense pressure and corporal punishment.
• “She grew up privy to a life of obscene luxury. However, it was a very difficult life growing up under her father.” (Barry Levine, [15:03])

Her Father's Death and Conspiratorial Beliefs

• Robert Maxwell’s body was found at sea in a notorious situation involving fraud and financial collapse; Ghislaine attributes his death to a conspiracy, not suicide. ([17:50-18:41])

Entry into Epstein’s Circle

• After her father's death, Ghislaine was left vulnerable and appeared adrift—Epstein steps in, providing the lifestyle to which she was accustomed. ([19:14-20:27])

Ghislaine's Involvement in the Crimes

• Describes her initiation into abuse and recruitment:
  • 1994: Assists Epstein in grooming a 13-year-old girl under the guise of mentorship and philanthropy; soon became chief recruiter and abuser herself. ([20:34-24:31])
  • “Ghislaine was in charge of overseeing this entire operation, she would present herself as this big sister, even a motherly type...It boggles the mind why she would do this, why she would destroy the childhoods of these minors.” (Barry Levine, [24:31])

Prison, Pardon Hopes, and Ongoing Impact

• Maxwell transferred to a more lenient facility after giving an interview exonerating Trump. She is believed to be seeking presidential clemency.
• “Frankly, it would be to the absolute horror of the Epstein and Maxwell survivors for Ghislaine to be pardoned. ...She belongs behind bars...” (Barry Levine, [26:26])

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Memorable Quotes & Timestamps

• “They released one document from a New York grand jury of 119 pages, totally blacked out." – [06:10]
• “We're never gonna get a full picture,” – Hayley Fuchs, on the likelihood of ever achieving true transparency, [10:18]
• “This really tragic saga…has morphed into…a political firestorm and flashpoint.” – Hayley Fuchs, [09:10]
• “Ghislaine was in charge of overseeing this entire operation...It boggles the mind why she would do this, why she would destroy the childhoods of these minors.” – Barry Levine, [24:31]
• “Frankly, it would be to the absolute horror of the Epstein and Maxwell survivors for Ghislaine to be pardoned.” – Barry Levine, [26:26]

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Important Timestamps

• 00:00-03:22: The incomplete release of the Epstein files, DOJ rationale, and congressional requirements
• 04:48-05:39: Photo removals, reactions, and discussions of political favoritism
• 06:08-07:12: Lawmaker outrage and threats of impeachment
• 09:10-10:50: The political weaponization of the saga and public dissatisfaction
• 14:49-18:41: Ghislaine Maxwell's family history and her father's scandalous death
• 20:34-24:31: Detailed account of Maxwell's criminal involvement
• 25:07-26:26: Maxwell’s current prison situation and the possibility of a pardon

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Conclusion

The release of the Epstein files has become a political battle with little resolution for victims or the public. The DOJ’s partial, heavily redacted disclosures have fueled bipartisan outrage and conspiracy theories, with the truth seemingly as elusive as ever. Ghislaine Maxwell’s story—from privileged upbringing to notorious accomplice—serves as a chilling illustration of power, complicity, and unending ramifications for survivors. The episode leaves listeners with a lingering sense that real answers, and true accountability, may remain perpetually out of reach.

Transcript

[A]

Congress voted to force the release of the Epstein files in mid November because people wanted answers. How did Jeffrey Epstein get his money? Who else was involved in his crimes? But when the files were released on Friday, there were no real answers. Now, lawmakers from both parties say President Trump's Justice Department is covering things up.

[B]

This is absolutely breaking the law.

[C]

I mean, they have not.

[B]

So my suggestion would be give up.

[C]

All the information, release it. Well, I think there needs to be a full and complete explanation and then a full and complete investigation as to why the document production has fallen short of what the law clearly required.

[A]

Marjorie Taylor Greene, a Republican, wrote, release all the files. It's literally the law. And Chuck Schumer, a Democrat, is urging the Senate to sue the Department of Justice. Coming up on Today explained the latest outrage over the Epstein files.

[C]

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[D]

Hayley Fuchs. I'm a reporter for Politico covering Congress.

[A]

How much time did you spend since Friday reading the Epstein files?

[D]

Certainly there was a lot of time spent scouring through these materials and a large team at Politico who were going through them.

[A]

Okay, so at this point, is it fair to say that the Epstein files have been released?

[D]

Definitely not. So the DOJ said they released a smaller tranche of materials on Friday and on Saturday and they were going to continue to release materials. What's interesting is that the bill that compelled the release of these materials that Congress passed last month actually required them to release materials by Friday. So a lot of lawmakers are saying that DOJ is breaking the law by not fully releasing the files.

[C]

They sent a six page memo to Congress and said they cited preexisting laws as reasons that they weren't going to follow our law. For instance, our law requires them to release information regardless of embarrassment. But they are trying to say that a previous law prevails when it doesn't.

[A]

If you say the files weren't fully released, what did you spend all weekend looking at? What did we get?

[D]

So we got a lot of materials from doj. We got some photos, we got some documents, but there really wasn't much in the way of new information in these files. The expectation was that DOJ would answer a lot of questions in its release of the files. People want to know how Epstein amassed his fortune. They want to know who else was involved in his crimes. And really in these files we didn't find out really anything about any of those questions. We mostly saw material that had already been public.

[B]

For the first time, the Epstein files.

[C]

Made public the Justice Department posting hundreds.

[B]

Of thousands of items online related to.

[C]

The DOJ's criminal investigations of the late sex offender. Thousands of photographs, some graphic and heavily redacted.

[B]

Bill Clinton seems swimming in a pool with Ghislaine Maxwell and another woman with her face redacted. Clinton with another unknown woman on his lap.

[A]

One of the new files confirms that Epstein was reported to authorities almost 30 years ago.

[D]

There is one thing that drew a lot of attention over the weekend and that is some images appeared to actually disappear from the DOJ website. Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche claims that that was because DOJ was concerned that victims identities were not properly redacted.

[C]

When we hear concerns whether it's photographs of women that we do not believe are victims or we didn't have information to show that they were victims, but we learned that there are concerns. Of course we're taking that photograph down and we're going to address it. If we need to redact faces or other information.

[D]

Will at least one of those photos included an image of Donald Trump.

[A]

Huh?

[D]

And DOJ has rejected the idea that they're trying to protect Trump in, in in the release of these files. And that image of Trump has since been re added back to the website.

[B]

The absurdity of us pulling down a.

[C]

Photo, a single photo, because President Trump was in it is laughable. And the Fact that everybody's trying to act like that's the case is a reflection of their true motivation. But. But the reality is it.

[A]

So we remember that it was Congress that compelled the administration to release these files to give us what we've got so far. How did lawmakers react to what was released?

[D]

Lawmakers are really upset.

[C]

They released one document from a New York grand jury of 119 pages, totally blacked out. They've not shown any deference or respect for the victims at all for the survivors of this nightmare. And it's all about covering up things that for whatever reason, Donald Trump doesn't want to go public.

[D]

They think that DOJ is not complying with the law and not fully releasing the materials. By the deadline that Congress has set, we actually saw two lawmakers, one Republican and one Democrat, Thomas Massie of Kentucky and Ro Khanna of California, threaten to start impeachment proceedings for Pam Bondi and to file content charges.

[C]

The quickest way, and I think most expeditious way, to get justice for these victims is to bring inherent contempt against Pam Bondi, Thomas Massie and are exploring all options. It can be the impeachment of people at justice, inherent contempt or referring for prosecution. Those who are obstructing justice, their threat.

[A]

To impeach Pam Bondi, what is that grounded in? Are they saying she didn't give us what Congress ordered her to give us?

[D]

Yes, they are. They're saying that DOJ is not complying with the law. DOJ maintains that it would be impossible for them to truly comply with the law and release all the information on time. But members of Congress are saying you're not doing what the law says you were supposed to do.

[A]

As part of the Epstein files release, we were supposed to get grand jury documents that relate to Ghislaine Maxwell. Did we learn anything new about her?

[D]

We really also didn't. Didn't learn much new about her. DOJ did ask judges to be able to release the grand jury materials publicly, and they did release those materials, but they were also heavily redacted. I think Ghislaine Maxwell's request for some kind of reprieve from her sentence is really a wild card in this saga. You never really know with Trump what he's going to do. He has said that he has not ruled out pardoning her. The Supreme Court is back in session. They rejected today an appeal by Ghislaine Maxwell to overturn her conviction.

[B]

That means her only chance at getting.

[D]

Out of prison is a pardon from you. Is that something you're open to.

[B]

Who are we talking about, Maxwell? You know, I haven't heard the name in so long, I can say this, that I'd have to take a look at it. I would have to take a look. Did they.

[D]

And so I'm not sure if we saw information in this tranche of materials that could give us any kind of signals of what's going to happen, in part because Trump is just a unpredictable character in this saga.

[A]

Do you think the objective has become muddled? I mean, it's worth asking, like, why do we want to see them? And you mentioned people being held accountable. And then there is the politics of all of this. Both parties are trying to sort of use this to their advantage. Do you think there is a clear objective at this point?

[D]

I think this really tragic saga of a powerful man who was able to use his power to abuse one for years has really morphed into a kind of political firestorm and flashpoint. We have Democrats trying to stoke division among the president's base and really use this issue to kind of pare back support for. For Trump. And on the flip side of that, we see Republicans acting defensively. We know that Trump has ordered his attorney general, Pam Bondi, to investigate Democrats with ties to Epstein. And so we really see this kind of turning to a political back and forth around a really tragic case of abuse.

[A]

You've been covering this story for a long time, and when Congress said it was going to compel the release of these files, it was a very, very big deal. You also know that there is a lot of theorizing and conspiracy theorizing around the Epstein fil. Do you think there is any information that could be released that would make people feel like this is enough? We know all that we are ever going to know.

[D]

I don't know that the American public is ever going to be fully satisfied with the information that is provided in this case. I think that people want to see the people who helped Epstein or potentially were involved in his crimes held accountable. And it's unclear if we are ever going to see that. I think for now, Democrats really want to see DOJ fully release the files, which is something that they have not done and theoretically could do.

[A]

Hayley Fuchs is a reporter for Politico. Coming up, Ghislaine Maxwell, the author of a book on what we now know about Jeffrey Epstein's accomplice.

[C]

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[C]

This is today explained.

[A]

I'm Noel King with Barry Levine. Barry is an investigative journalist who wrote a book called the Inside the Criminal Web of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. Barry, tell me about Maxwell's early years.

[B]

Well, Ghislaine grew up in England in a mansion with 50 or 60 rooms. Her father, of course, was Robert Maxwell, the famous Fleet street media tycoon. One man and the company he founded has done more than any other to harness the communications revolution. The man is Robert Max. The company is Maxwell Communication Corporation. I certainly would hope to make a small contribution with the help of these newspapers if I become proprietor to halting the retreat of Great Britain, which has gone on for so long that the natives have forgotten that they're going backwards. She was the youngest of their nine children. It was a very strange upbringing in the sense that her father was extremely explosive and he demanded a great deal of his children. Ghislaine's mother, Elizabeth, later in her autobiography, said that her husband Robert, would fly into these rages and subject the children to humiliation and harsh treatment, including corporal punishment. So she grew up privy to a life of obscene luxury. However, it was a very difficult life growing up under her father.

[A]

Did she express resentment of him? Did she dislike the pressure that was put on her?

[B]

No, no. In fact, she embraced that she was Daddy's little girl in all that sense. And not only were they close as she was growing up, but he also wanted to groom her for the family business. When Robert Maxwell acquired Macmillan Publishing in 1988, along with the New York Daily News, the person that he brought with him from England was his daughter, Ghislaine. She was well known, had a tremendous Rolodex of contacts of the rich and famous, and so Robert Maxwell wanted to tap into that. And then, of course, the tragedy hit when her father and his sons, Kevin and Ian, had to battle the bank of England for defaulting on close to $75 million in loans.

[D]

The latest revelations surrounding the Maxwell empire.

[B]

Are probably the most damaging yet.

[D]

The resignation last night of Kevin and Ian Maxwell from the board of Mirror Group Newspapers signaled the start of a huge inquiry into allegations that Robert Maxwell used some £300 million from the Mirror Pension to prop up some of his other troubled companies.

[B]

He was on a yacht off the coast of the Canary Islands, his yacht, which was named after Ghislaine, the Lady Ghislaine. And he was seen on the deck early that morning, and then he had fallen overboard. His body was found 12 hours later in the Atlantic Ocean by Spanish fishermen. An autopsy interestingly revealed that there were no signs of foul play. The people around the Maxwell family believed it to be a suicide.

[D]

I also want to take this opportunity to thank all the many hundreds of people who have sent messages of support to us at this very, very sad time.

[B]

Now, Ghislaine didn't want to believe that. She did not want to believe that her father would take his life. So she said this was a result of a dark conspiracy involving Mossad renegades and Sicilian contract killers who were responsible for her father's death. Of course, this was Ghislaine's viewpoint. She didn't want to believe her father would take his own life. And so this was the conclusion.

[A]

How did Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein meet?

[B]

Ghislaine and Jeffrey Epstein never specifically cited where they in fact, met. It was very mysterious how the two of them came together at that time. And then, of course, they show up together at a fashion show in Paris in 1992. You have to remember at the time that Ghislaine was really not herself. She was extremely distraught after her father's death. People who I interviewed for my book said she was constantly crying, she was constantly breaking down. She was really not in any type of good graces. She moved into a small New York apartment, really just kind of wondering what her future was going to be. And then all of a sudden, she's with Jeffrey Epstein and she is spending time at his mansion, townhouse mansion on the Upper east side. Jeffrey Epstein was able to provide this type of super wealthy lifestyle that she had become accustomed to.

[A]

How did Ghislaine Maxwell become part of Jeffrey Epstein's abuse?

[B]

Well, about two years into their relationship, Jeffrey Epstein invited Ghislaine Maxwell to travel with him to Northern Michigan in the spring of 1994. There was a music camp there called the Interlocean School. Jeffrey Epstein had studied there as a young student from Brooklyn, New York. After he made his money, the school erected a Jeffrey Epstein Scholarship Lodge in his honor, because Jeffrey Epstein gave the music school financial gifts. So Ghislaine Maxwell goes with Jeffrey in 1994 to this music school and Jeffrey Epstein met a 13 year old girl there who is identified in court documents as a Jane Doe. And Jeffrey Epstein approached this girl and said, you have talent. I would like to bring you to Palm Beach, Florida, where I live and I want to provide for you private voice lessons and myself and Ghislaine, we will take care of you. We will put you up in a nice place to live. They met the girl's mother and invited the girl's mother to their Palm beach estate. And Ghislaine played the role of Jeffrey Epstein's love interest, really legitimizing the deal for the mother, seeming that this was a couple that was going to take care of my daughter. And it was a, you know, a teenager's dream to hang out in a, in a mansion, be lavished with clothing and gifts. But then it went to the dark side. Ghislaine was instructed by Jeffrey Epstein to groom this 13 year old girl into learning about sexual positions. This was to me, the rubber hitting the road in the sense that Ghislaine Maxwell was now becoming a co conspirator to Jeffrey Epstein and basically feeding this young child to the wolf.

[A]

So the story of this 13 year old girl is one in which Jeffrey Epstein spots this kid, decides I want her, and then Ghislaine Maxwell helps him groom and abuse this child. How does her role in the abuse evolve?

[B]

When they return to Palm Beach, Ghislaine Maxwell was instructed by Jeffrey Epstein to begin finding other girls. And this of course, began the process of their sex trafficking. Ghislaine Maxwell would recruit girls from the local schools, from local parks, as alleged.

[D]

Maxwell and Epstein had a method.

[B]

Typically, they would befriend these young girls.

[D]

By asking them questions about their lives, pretending to be taking an interest in them. They would take them to the movies and treat them to shopping trips.

[B]

She would have Jeffrey Epstein's driver drive around, she would spot a girl, she would say, would you like make a couple hundred dollars giving my friend a massage? Of course that was code for the sexual abuse that would take place. And then they would pay these girls $200, $300. And the girls were asked to recruit other girls that they knew. Maxwell enticed minor girls, got them to.

[D]

Trust her, then delivered them into the trap that she and Epstein had set for them. She pretended to be a woman they could trust. All the while she was setting them.

[B]

Up to be sexually abused by Epstein.

[D]

And in some cases by Maxwell herself.

[B]

Ghislaine was in charge of overseeing this entire operation, she would present herself as this big sister, even a motherly type of individual to welcome these young girls. It boggles the mind why she would do this, why she would destroy the childhoods of these minors.

[A]

Ghislaine Maxwell, of course, like Jeffrey Epstein, ended up in prison. Where is she now and what is she doing now? Barry?

[B]

Well, Ghislaine has been moved to a minimum security dorm like facility in Texas from the federal facility lockup that she was in Florida. And this had to do with the fawning interview that she gave recently to Todd Blanche, that she never witnessed any wrongdoing involving Donald Trump while he was friends with Jeffrey Epstein, that he didn't know anything about any of this.

[D]

I never witnessed the President in any inappropriate setting in any way. The President was never inappropriate with anybody in the time of I was with him. He was a gentleman in all respects.

[B]

Elaine, as a reward, I believe, was moved to this minimum security facility. She's working on asking for clemency from the President and that's where she is right now.

[A]

Do you think there is a possibility that she will get a pardon, that she will get out?

[B]

Donald Trump knew Ghislaine Maxwell going back to the late 1980s. I don't think it's far fetched that Donald Trump could do this. Yeah, I mean, I'm gonna have to.

[C]

Take a look at it.

[B]

I have to ask doj.

[C]

I didn't know they rejected it.

[B]

I didn't know she was even asking for it. Frankly, it would be to the absolute horror of the Epstein and Maxwell survivors for Ghislaine to be pardoned. I think it would be for the women now who interacted with Maxwell who were sexually abused by her. I think that this would cause traumas for these women today if Ghislaine Maxwell was pardoned and she belongs behind bars for the, you know, for the remainder of her sentence.

[A]

Barry Levine is an investigative journalist and the author of the Spider. Danielle Hewitt produced today's show with help from Avshai Aartsi. Amina Elsadi edited Laura Bullard and Jolie Meyer's Check the Facts and Patrick Boyd and David Tadashore, engineer here. I'm Noel King. It's Today Explained.

[B]

Sam.