Today, Explained – "The Future of Vaccines"
Date: August 26, 2025
Hosts: Sean Ramsford, with guests Katherine Wu (The Atlantic) and Lauren Weber (Washington Post)
Overview
This episode of Today, Explained unpacks the evolving and increasingly contentious future of vaccines in America, focusing on the dramatic policy shifts under Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (RFK Jr.) and the shifting stance of President Donald Trump. The hosts, joined by science journalists Katherine Wu and Lauren Weber, analyze canceled funding for mRNA vaccines, the fate of COVID-19 vaccination, broader threats to childhood immunizations, and the resulting confusion for parents, doctors, and policymakers. The discussion is a mix of reporting, context, and expert opinion, peppered with memorable quotes and real-time policy ramifications.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. RFK Jr.'s Leadership at HHS: A New Era for Vaccine Policy
[02:04–04:39]
- RFK Jr., known for his long history of vaccine skepticism, is now directing significant cuts to mRNA vaccine development.
- Canceled over $500 million in mRNA vaccine grants via the Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority (BARDA).
- RFK Jr. [02:29]: “BARDA reviewed 22 mRNA vaccine development investments and began canceling them.”
- Public is most familiar with mRNA vaccines as COVID-19 vaccines, but this technology had wider planned uses (e.g., other infectious diseases).
2. Trump’s Changing Position and Policy on COVID-19 Vaccines
[03:18–05:40]; [06:06–07:30]
- Trump was instrumental in launching Operation Warp Speed during his first term, which fast-tracked the original COVID-19 mRNA vaccines.
- Trump [04:18]: “The gold standard vaccine has been done in less than nine months.”
- In his second term, Trump’s administration has:
- Pulled federal support for further mRNA vaccine development.
- Begun making COVID-19 vaccines harder to access and changing or reducing vaccine recommendations for certain groups.
- HHS is targeting further COVID vaccine access restrictions.
- Katherine Wu [04:39]: “I think it's very realistic that within a year or two, very, very, very few people will be able to get Covid vaccines, even when they…need them.”
3. Rewriting the Narrative on mRNA Vaccines
[06:06–08:35]
- Trump and his administration now downplay or question the safety/effectiveness of mRNA vaccines, despite unchanged supporting data.
- Trump [06:28]: “The dedicated and independent experts at the FDA… it has now passed the gold standard of safety.”
- RFK Jr. casts doubt on the science and safety:
- RFK Jr. [06:50]: “HHS has determined that MRNA technology poses more risk than benefits for these respiratory [viruses].”
- Katherine Wu rebuts [07:13]: “They have done quite the opposite. And he's just basically cast doubt on the idea that they were studied really thoroughly.”
- Discussion of whether the fast development of vaccines skipped needed safety testing:
- Katherine Wu [07:53]: “It's important to acknowledge that all this was done…on the shoulders of all the vaccine science that came before it.”
4. International Ramifications and the U.S. as an Outlier
[09:10–11:07]
- U.S. cuts to vaccine development harm global scientific progress and reduce resources for other nations.
- Historically, the world has looked to U.S. recommendations; the U.S. downplaying vaccines could prompt other countries to hesitate or alter their strategies.
- Katherine Wu [10:30]: “We totally are [the outliers]… I would hope that other countries look at us and then look at. Look at the UK and be like, okay, maybe we start following the UK a little bit more right now.”
- Vaccine scarcity might create a medical “black market” (e.g., traveling abroad for access).
5. Trump, Vaccine Politics, and the COVID Legacy
[11:07–12:54]
- Trump's relationship with the vaccine is complicated by early pandemic criticism and the politicization of COVID response.
- Katherine Wu [12:03]: “I think a lot of Trump's base felt really angered by that, and they felt angered by a lot of early pandemic policies…And I think that has soured Trump's base on all things Covid, including vaccines.”
- Despite a “huge win” with the original vaccine rollout in 2020, Trump seems unwilling or unable to “take the win.”
6. RFK Jr.'s Broader Impact: Threats to Routine & Childhood Vaccines
[16:23–19:58]
- Lauren Weber explains RFK Jr.’s skepticism is not limited to COVID vaccines.
- Targeted vaccines include:
- Polio (RFK Jr. [17:26]: “A virus called simian virus 40 SV40 and now you've had this explosion of soft tissue cancers in our generation that kill many, many, many, many more people than polio ever did.”)
- Measles (RFK Jr. [17:40]: “We're always going to have measles no matter what happens. As the vaccine wanes very quickly…”)
- Kennedy’s handpicked vaccine committee at HHS is re-evaluating the childhood vaccine schedule, citing discredited claims about vaccine safety and necessity.
- Lauren Weber [18:13]: “They said they were going to dig into the childhood vaccination schedule…for years Kennedy has said…questions about whether or not they have harmful side effects.”
- The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) is, for the first time in decades, preparing to issue its own vaccine schedule separate from federal recommendations.
- Weber [20:26]: “…the AAP has said that they will be putting out their own vaccine recommendations that are different than the federal government because they don't trust in what Kennedy and HHS is planning.”
7. State vs. Federal Authority on Vaccine Policies
[21:33–22:36]
- While most vaccine mandates for school entry are set by states (not the federal government), federal recommendations have heavy influence.
- Lauren Weber [21:50]: “…states set their own rules. Right now, you know, the measles vaccine is mandated in all states for children entering kindergarten…If his HHS of his CDC comes out and says…XYZ vaccine isn't safe, then that could have a cascading effect.”
8. Doublespeak and Rising Vaccine Hesitancy
[22:57–25:11]
- Since taking office at HHS, RFK Jr. has softened his tone, practicing “doublespeak”—publicly promising science-based policy but continuously raising unfounded doubts.
- RFK Jr. [23:31]: “I'm not going to take people's vaccines away…What I'm going to do is make sure that we have good science so that people can make an informed choice.”
- Lauren Weber [23:48]: “He does this thing that a lot of experts call doublespeak, where he'll sort of half heartedly endorse a vaccine, but then talk about all of its potential side effects or say things about it that are misleading or untrue.”
- Growing hesitancy is measurable: Over the past few years, a small but increasing number of parents are opting their children out of vaccines.
- Weber [24:25]: “We have seen a growing number of parents opt their kindergartners out of vaccination. It's still a small number…a little over 3%… but we are seeing growing hesitancy.”
9. Repairability and the Future Outlook
[25:11–26:32]
- Even with a new administration, restoring trust is an uphill battle.
- Lauren Weber [25:20]: “I think it's really hard to undo fear. It's really hard to undo hesitancy. It's really hard to undo the level of doubt that's been injected into this process.”
- Changing policies or advisory board members is possible, but “the number of parents who now are very confused is going to be harder to push back upon.”
Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)
- RFK Jr. [02:29]: “BARDA reviewed 22 MRNA vaccine development investments and began canceling them.”
- Trump [04:18]: “The gold standard vaccine has been done in less than nine months.”
- Katherine Wu [04:39]: “…this shining beacon from Trump's first term is just kind of being systematically ripped apart.”
- RFK Jr. [06:50]: “HHS has determined that MRNA technology poses more risk and benefits for these respiratory…”
- Katherine Wu [07:53]: “It's important to acknowledge that all this was done kind of on the shoulders of all the vaccine science that came before it.”
- Katherine Wu [10:30]: “We totally are [the outliers]."
- Katherine Wu [12:03]: “I think a lot of Trump's base felt really angered by [the early pandemic], and they felt angered by a lot of early pandemic policies.”
- RFK Jr. [17:26]: “…a virus called simian virus 40 SV40 and now you've had this explosion of soft tissue cancers in our generation…”
- Lauren Weber [20:26]: “…the AAP has said that they will be putting out their own vaccine recommendations that are different than the federal government because they don't trust in what Kennedy and HHS is planning.”
- Lauren Weber [23:48]: “…leads to what we're seeing, which is a growing distrust in government institutions, a growing distrust in vaccines, and potentially a growing hesitancy that could get even worse.”
- Lauren Weber [25:20]: “I think it's really hard to undo fear…very confused is going to be harder to push back upon.”
Segment Timestamps
- [00:00–02:04] — Introduction & background on RFK Jr.'s vaccine skepticism
- [02:04–05:40] — Changes in mRNA vaccine funding and COVID vaccine access
- [05:40–08:35] — Changing narratives on vaccine safety; speed of COVID vaccine development
- [08:35–11:07] — Impacts on international vaccination programs; U.S. as global outlier
- [11:07–12:54] — Trump, the politics and legacy of COVID-19 vaccine response
- [16:23–19:58] — RFK Jr.'s impact on broader vaccine policy & future of childhood vaccines
- [21:33–22:36] — Federal vs. state roles in vaccine mandates
- [22:57–25:11] — Doublespeak, public confusion, and spreading hesitancy
- [25:11–26:32] — Can vaccine trust and policy be “fixed” by a new president?
Conclusion
The episode paints a sobering portrait of America's shifting vaccine landscape under RFK Jr. and the second Trump administration, marked by policy rollbacks, public confusion, and declining trust in science and public health. Experts warn that even with a later change in leadership, the damage to confidence and access may be hard to reverse. The hosts recommend that listeners rely on reputable scientific organizations like the American Academy of Pediatrics in the current climate of official uncertainty.
For more details, read Katherine Wu at The Atlantic and Lauren Weber at The Washington Post.