The future of vaccines

Summary

Today, Explained – "The Future of Vaccines"

Date: August 26, 2025
Hosts: Sean Ramsford, with guests Katherine Wu (The Atlantic) and Lauren Weber (Washington Post)

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Overview

This episode of Today, Explained unpacks the evolving and increasingly contentious future of vaccines in America, focusing on the dramatic policy shifts under Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (RFK Jr.) and the shifting stance of President Donald Trump. The hosts, joined by science journalists Katherine Wu and Lauren Weber, analyze canceled funding for mRNA vaccines, the fate of COVID-19 vaccination, broader threats to childhood immunizations, and the resulting confusion for parents, doctors, and policymakers. The discussion is a mix of reporting, context, and expert opinion, peppered with memorable quotes and real-time policy ramifications.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. RFK Jr.'s Leadership at HHS: A New Era for Vaccine Policy

[02:04–04:39]

• RFK Jr., known for his long history of vaccine skepticism, is now directing significant cuts to mRNA vaccine development.
• Canceled over $500 million in mRNA vaccine grants via the Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority (BARDA).
  • RFK Jr. [02:29]: “BARDA reviewed 22 mRNA vaccine development investments and began canceling them.”
• Public is most familiar with mRNA vaccines as COVID-19 vaccines, but this technology had wider planned uses (e.g., other infectious diseases).

2. Trump’s Changing Position and Policy on COVID-19 Vaccines

[03:18–05:40]; [06:06–07:30]

• Trump was instrumental in launching Operation Warp Speed during his first term, which fast-tracked the original COVID-19 mRNA vaccines.
  • Trump [04:18]: “The gold standard vaccine has been done in less than nine months.”
• In his second term, Trump’s administration has:
  • Pulled federal support for further mRNA vaccine development.
  • Begun making COVID-19 vaccines harder to access and changing or reducing vaccine recommendations for certain groups.
  • HHS is targeting further COVID vaccine access restrictions.
  • Katherine Wu [04:39]: “I think it's very realistic that within a year or two, very, very, very few people will be able to get Covid vaccines, even when they…need them.”

3. Rewriting the Narrative on mRNA Vaccines

[06:06–08:35]

• Trump and his administration now downplay or question the safety/effectiveness of mRNA vaccines, despite unchanged supporting data.
  • Trump [06:28]: “The dedicated and independent experts at the FDA… it has now passed the gold standard of safety.”
• RFK Jr. casts doubt on the science and safety:
  • RFK Jr. [06:50]: “HHS has determined that MRNA technology poses more risk than benefits for these respiratory [viruses].”
  • Katherine Wu rebuts [07:13]: “They have done quite the opposite. And he's just basically cast doubt on the idea that they were studied really thoroughly.”
• Discussion of whether the fast development of vaccines skipped needed safety testing:
  • Katherine Wu [07:53]: “It's important to acknowledge that all this was done…on the shoulders of all the vaccine science that came before it.”

4. International Ramifications and the U.S. as an Outlier

[09:10–11:07]

• U.S. cuts to vaccine development harm global scientific progress and reduce resources for other nations.
• Historically, the world has looked to U.S. recommendations; the U.S. downplaying vaccines could prompt other countries to hesitate or alter their strategies.
  • Katherine Wu [10:30]: “We totally are [the outliers]… I would hope that other countries look at us and then look at. Look at the UK and be like, okay, maybe we start following the UK a little bit more right now.”
• Vaccine scarcity might create a medical “black market” (e.g., traveling abroad for access).

5. Trump, Vaccine Politics, and the COVID Legacy

[11:07–12:54]

• Trump's relationship with the vaccine is complicated by early pandemic criticism and the politicization of COVID response.
  • Katherine Wu [12:03]: “I think a lot of Trump's base felt really angered by that, and they felt angered by a lot of early pandemic policies…And I think that has soured Trump's base on all things Covid, including vaccines.”
• Despite a “huge win” with the original vaccine rollout in 2020, Trump seems unwilling or unable to “take the win.”

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6. RFK Jr.'s Broader Impact: Threats to Routine & Childhood Vaccines

[16:23–19:58]

• Lauren Weber explains RFK Jr.’s skepticism is not limited to COVID vaccines.
• Targeted vaccines include:
  • Polio (RFK Jr. [17:26]: “A virus called simian virus 40 SV40 and now you've had this explosion of soft tissue cancers in our generation that kill many, many, many, many more people than polio ever did.”)
  • Measles (RFK Jr. [17:40]: “We're always going to have measles no matter what happens. As the vaccine wanes very quickly…”)
• Kennedy’s handpicked vaccine committee at HHS is re-evaluating the childhood vaccine schedule, citing discredited claims about vaccine safety and necessity.
  • Lauren Weber [18:13]: “They said they were going to dig into the childhood vaccination schedule…for years Kennedy has said…questions about whether or not they have harmful side effects.”
• The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) is, for the first time in decades, preparing to issue its own vaccine schedule separate from federal recommendations.
  • Weber [20:26]: “…the AAP has said that they will be putting out their own vaccine recommendations that are different than the federal government because they don't trust in what Kennedy and HHS is planning.”

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7. State vs. Federal Authority on Vaccine Policies

[21:33–22:36]

• While most vaccine mandates for school entry are set by states (not the federal government), federal recommendations have heavy influence.
  • Lauren Weber [21:50]: “…states set their own rules. Right now, you know, the measles vaccine is mandated in all states for children entering kindergarten…If his HHS of his CDC comes out and says…XYZ vaccine isn't safe, then that could have a cascading effect.”

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8. Doublespeak and Rising Vaccine Hesitancy

[22:57–25:11]

• Since taking office at HHS, RFK Jr. has softened his tone, practicing “doublespeak”—publicly promising science-based policy but continuously raising unfounded doubts.
  • RFK Jr. [23:31]: “I'm not going to take people's vaccines away…What I'm going to do is make sure that we have good science so that people can make an informed choice.”
  • Lauren Weber [23:48]: “He does this thing that a lot of experts call doublespeak, where he'll sort of half heartedly endorse a vaccine, but then talk about all of its potential side effects or say things about it that are misleading or untrue.”
• Growing hesitancy is measurable: Over the past few years, a small but increasing number of parents are opting their children out of vaccines.
  • Weber [24:25]: “We have seen a growing number of parents opt their kindergartners out of vaccination. It's still a small number…a little over 3%… but we are seeing growing hesitancy.”

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9. Repairability and the Future Outlook

[25:11–26:32]

• Even with a new administration, restoring trust is an uphill battle.
  • Lauren Weber [25:20]: “I think it's really hard to undo fear. It's really hard to undo hesitancy. It's really hard to undo the level of doubt that's been injected into this process.”
  • Changing policies or advisory board members is possible, but “the number of parents who now are very confused is going to be harder to push back upon.”

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• RFK Jr. [02:29]: “BARDA reviewed 22 MRNA vaccine development investments and began canceling them.”
• Trump [04:18]: “The gold standard vaccine has been done in less than nine months.”
• Katherine Wu [04:39]: “…this shining beacon from Trump's first term is just kind of being systematically ripped apart.”
• RFK Jr. [06:50]: “HHS has determined that MRNA technology poses more risk and benefits for these respiratory…”
• Katherine Wu [07:53]: “It's important to acknowledge that all this was done kind of on the shoulders of all the vaccine science that came before it.”
• Katherine Wu [10:30]: “We totally are [the outliers]."
• Katherine Wu [12:03]: “I think a lot of Trump's base felt really angered by [the early pandemic], and they felt angered by a lot of early pandemic policies.”
• RFK Jr. [17:26]: “…a virus called simian virus 40 SV40 and now you've had this explosion of soft tissue cancers in our generation…”
• Lauren Weber [20:26]: “…the AAP has said that they will be putting out their own vaccine recommendations that are different than the federal government because they don't trust in what Kennedy and HHS is planning.”
• Lauren Weber [23:48]: “…leads to what we're seeing, which is a growing distrust in government institutions, a growing distrust in vaccines, and potentially a growing hesitancy that could get even worse.”
• Lauren Weber [25:20]: “I think it's really hard to undo fear…very confused is going to be harder to push back upon.”

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Segment Timestamps

• [00:00–02:04] — Introduction & background on RFK Jr.'s vaccine skepticism
• [02:04–05:40] — Changes in mRNA vaccine funding and COVID vaccine access
• [05:40–08:35] — Changing narratives on vaccine safety; speed of COVID vaccine development
• [08:35–11:07] — Impacts on international vaccination programs; U.S. as global outlier
• [11:07–12:54] — Trump, the politics and legacy of COVID-19 vaccine response
• [16:23–19:58] — RFK Jr.'s impact on broader vaccine policy & future of childhood vaccines
• [21:33–22:36] — Federal vs. state roles in vaccine mandates
• [22:57–25:11] — Doublespeak, public confusion, and spreading hesitancy
• [25:11–26:32] — Can vaccine trust and policy be “fixed” by a new president?

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Conclusion

The episode paints a sobering portrait of America's shifting vaccine landscape under RFK Jr. and the second Trump administration, marked by policy rollbacks, public confusion, and declining trust in science and public health. Experts warn that even with a later change in leadership, the damage to confidence and access may be hard to reverse. The hosts recommend that listeners rely on reputable scientific organizations like the American Academy of Pediatrics in the current climate of official uncertainty.

For more details, read Katherine Wu at The Atlantic and Lauren Weber at The Washington Post.

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Transcript

[Host (Sean Ramsford)]

Here's by no means complete list of things RFK Jr. Our nation's secretary of Health and Human Services, has previously said about vaccines.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

I do believe that autism does come from vaccines.

[Host (Sean Ramsford)]

That clip's just over two years old. A few years before that, of course, we had the COVID 19 pandemic.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

The problem is the entire sort of medical cartel is now feeding at the dead of Big Pharma.

[Host (Sean Ramsford)]

Just before the pandemic, he traveled to Samoa to talk about the perils of vaccinations. Later that year, 83 Samoans died in a measles outbreak.

[Katherine Wu]

Anything you do differently?

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

No, absolutely not.

[Host (Sean Ramsford)]

That was from his confirmation hearing and then he got confirmed and now he's trying to dictate which vaccinations you can get. And we're gonna figure out what that means for you on Today Explained from Vox. Labor Day savings are happening right now at the Home Depot. So what are you working on? Prep for fall with our wide selection of cordless power tools that make it easy to clear your lawn starting at $79. And once the leaves are clear, keep your yard looking fresh with colorful mums that bloom all season long. Shop Labor Day Savings now through September 3rd only at the Home Depot. See select stores for details.

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[Host (Sean Ramsford)]

Today explained Sean Ramsford. I'm here with Katherine Wu, staff writer at the Atlantic. Catherine, you write about vaccines. What is the Secretary of Health and Human Services Robert Floride Kennedy Jr. Doing right now with MRNA vaccines?

[Katherine Wu]

Probably the latest and biggest news is that he canceled half a billion dollars worth of grants to develop more MRNA vaccines.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

Hi, it's Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Here, your HHS secretary. At HHS, we have a division called the Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority, or BARDA. Over the past few weeks, BARDA reviewed 22 MRNA vaccine development investments and began canceling them.

[Katherine Wu]

And the public is probably most familiar with MRNA vaccines in the context of COVID vaccines.

[Donald Trump]

Well, it's a new technology and it is proven in a very large group of clinical trials to be safe and highly effective.

[Katherine Wu]

That's the first place we had successful MRNA vaccines. And that is still where MRNA vaccines dominate the market. But they've been in development for tons of other diseases, not just infectious ones for a very long time. So this is a pretty huge deal.

[Host (Sean Ramsford)]

Remind me, who was president when the COVID MRNA vaccine was developed? Ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump.

[Katherine Wu]

Also Trump, just during his first term, not this one.

[Donald Trump]

I'm honored to welcome doctors, scientists, industry executives, and state and local leaders to our historic Operation Warp Speed vaccine summit. It's been some journey for all of us. It's been an incredible, weird.

[Host (Sean Ramsford)]

How has President Trump advanced his campaign to, like, inoculate and protect Americans with MRNA vaccines in his second term so far?

[Katherine Wu]

Ooh, let's see. He hasn't. So, you know, during the first term, Trump was the one who helped push forward Operation Warp Speed, that big partnership between government and pharma that got us all of these amazing Covid vaccines in record time and helped us, you know, beat back this pandemic that killed so many people in this country and others.

[Donald Trump]

Before Operation Warp Speed, the typical time frame for development and approval, as you know, could be infinity. And we were very, very happy that we were able to get things done at a level that nobody has ever seen before. The gold standard vaccine has been done in less than nine months.

[Katherine Wu]

And so far, you know, this change shining beacon from Trump's first term is just kind of being systematically ripped apart. We've already talked about how Trump's administration has pulled funding for development of more MRNA vaccines. You would think that, you know, we want to build on that success, not so much. But, you know, they've also started to strip away Americans access to Covid vaccines. They have removed or altered recommendations to get Covid vaccines in certain groups. They've made it harder for vaccine makers to get new Covid vaccines to market. And, you know, a lot of the new hires and advisors to the Department of Health and Human Services are taking aim at other COVID vaccine recommendations that could restrict access even further. I think it's very realistic that within a year or two, very, very, very few people will be able to get Covid vaccines, even when they very much want them and very much need them.

[Host (Sean Ramsford)]

We were all there when the COVID vaccines came out, and the President, I believe, was like, you know, among the first to get them.

[Donald Trump]

I recommend take the vaccines. I did it. It's good. Take the vaccines. But you got. No, that's okay. That's all right. You got your freedoms. But I happened to take the vaccine.

[Host (Sean Ramsford)]

And they were touted as a miracle of medical science. How is that narrative being rewritten right now?

[Katherine Wu]

Yeah, it's really fascinating, right? Like Trump Himself used that phrase, medical miracle. And there's no reason that, at least no scientific reason that he should have stopped believing that. The data on these vaccines has not changed. They're very safe, very effective. They went through all the normal channels of vetting that get us safe, effective vaccines.

[Donald Trump]

The dedicated and independent experts at the FDA meticulously studied the results of the trials and, and it has now passed the gold standard of safety.

[Katherine Wu]

But right now, in his second term, Trump is leading an administration that is mostly pushing out information that these vaccines are dubious, they don't work.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

HHS has determined that MRNA technology poses more risk and benefits for these respiratory.

[Katherine Wu]

Viruses, which is not true. They have saved millions of lives, like studies have shown that they saved millions of lives during the pandemic, and they continue to protect people for everyone who was receiving them.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

He said that they were the deadliest vaccine ever made.

[Katherine Wu]

There's no evidence to support that. They have done quite the opposite. And he's just basically cast doubt on the idea that they were studied really thoroughly and really carefully vetted by expert scientists who knew exactly what sorts of safety signals to look for.

[Host (Sean Ramsford)]

These vaccines were famously brought to market very quickly. I mean, that was part of the miracle we're referring to here, that to really, you know, spur a lot of these conspiracy theories about their efficacy. Was there any validity to the argument that they were produced too quickly, that there wasn't enough testing happening?

[Katherine Wu]

I think the way you phrase your question is really important, right, because too quickly is really about, did they arrive so quickly that there wasn't adequate time to study them, make sure that they worked really well to protect against Covid? And they did so in a way that wasn't, you know, posing undue risk to the people who receive them. And I think the answer is very soundly, no. It's important to acknowledge that all this was done kind of on the shoulders of all the vaccine science that came before it. Scientists knew what to look for, they knew how to run these trials, they knew how to scale up their technology. And, yeah, they did it in ways that were unprecedented, but not unprecedented in ways that they were like shooting in the dark when they did this.

[Host (Sean Ramsford)]

So what happens now? You were saying that you can see a future in which even people who really want and need these vaccines won't be able to get them. How far away is that future?

[Katherine Wu]

I think there are still enough people at federal health agencies that would fight back against that, that it could be a very dragged out fight. Really stripping access to those vaccines instantaneously would Also probably come under legal challenge really quickly, but I think it's something that a lot of sectors of the administration are starting to move toward.

[Host (Sean Ramsford)]

Operation Warp speed obviously played a huge role in developing these vaccines, but it wasn't just an American effort by any means. If the US Is falling off right now and sort of denying the medical miracle that was, what's the rest of the world doing? And does that mean that you could fly to Canada to get your COVID vaccine or even get it delivered?

[Katherine Wu]

Man, black market international vaccines. What a world. Yeah, it's a great question, and I think there's a couple things to touch on here. One is that cutting off funding for MRNA vaccine development here does cut off resources for the rest of the world. Right. Like, the US Is extremely powerful in terms of scientific firepower, money, and also, you know, up until very recently, foreign aid. If we stop developing vaccines here, that means there are fewer resources for other countries. There's also kind of a, like, a chilling effect that is very likely to happen if the US Says these vaccines are crap, they're not worth investing in, they're not worth recommending, they're not good enough for our people. Other countries have traditionally taken cues from the US Especially around vaccines. Other countries might look at what we're doing and pause and be like, well, we don't want to look weird. We don't want to be the outliers when the US Is doing this.

[Host (Sean Ramsford)]

But are we the outliers right now? It feels like we're the outliers.

[Katherine Wu]

We totally are. And I would hope that other countries look at us and then look at. Look at the UK and be like, okay, maybe we start following the UK a little bit more right now. But it's tricky, right, because I think in a landscape where these vaccines get more scarce and more expensive because the US Isn't pouring resources into developing them, those vaccines simply won't exist, or might be worse than if the US Were pouring those resources in and the US Is simultaneously saying, these aren't good enough. It becomes kind of a. An economical and almost political decision for other countries to just pause a little bit more.

[Host (Sean Ramsford)]

You know, Donald Trump has taken to wearing a hat that says, Trump was right about everything. This is a man who loves a win, and he got a huge one in 2020 with the MRNA vaccine for COVID 19. Why do you think he won't take the win?

[Katherine Wu]

I'm not Trump. I can't fully speak for him, but I do suspect some of this goes back to what happened at the end of his term and what happened, you know, in the ensuing presidential term. Right. The end of Trump's first term was really marred by the start of the pandemic.

[Donald Trump]

We don't call them rallies anymore because, you know, you're not allowed to have a political rally for more than 10 people. You're not allowed to go to church, you're not allowed to meet people, you're not allowed to talk to anybody. You have to stay in a prison. Your home has become your prison.

[Katherine Wu]

He was widely criticized for letting things get as bad as they did in the US in those early days. And even though, you know, he helped push vaccines along and that was a triumph, that didn't completely overshadow, I think, all of the other policy hiccups that made 2020 and much of 2021 really horrific in this country. The pandemic could have gone much better here if there had been a much better coordinated public health response, better communication. And so I think a lot of Trump's base felt really angered by that, and they felt angered by a lot of early pandemic policies. They felt betrayed by the government. And I think that has soured Trump's base on all things Covid, including vaccines.

[Host (Sean Ramsford)]

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[Katherine Wu]

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[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

Cementmobile.com Doctors are being paid to Vaccine, not to evaluate to today explained.

[Lauren Weber]

I'm Lauren Weber. I'm a health and science accountability reporter for the Washington Post.

[Host (Sean Ramsford)]

And Lauren, in the first half of the show we talked about MRNA vaccines, Covid vaccines, and how it's looking dicey for their future in the United States. But what is Robert F. Kennedy Jr's health department doing to vaccines at large?

[Lauren Weber]

Well, I think it's important to understand that Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Has a long history as an anti vaccine activist. For many, many years he has falsely linked vaccines to autism and since coming into office, he's executed many moves that public health experts say threatening access to vaccines. And there's a lot of concern that he's continuing to chip away at this bedrock of public health that ensures the public safety against infectious disease.

[Host (Sean Ramsford)]

And so this isn't just a COVID vaccine thing?

[Lauren Weber]

No, it's, it's, it's a lot of vaccines that he has expressed issues with over the years. The polio vaccine the polio vaccine contained.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

A virus called simian virus 40 SV40 and now you've had this explosion of soft tissue cancers in our generation that kill many, many, many, many more people than polio ever did.

[Lauren Weber]

Measles vaccine.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

We're always going to have measles no matter what happens. As the vaccine wanes very quickly, we.

[Lauren Weber]

Are seeing growing hesitancy for parents when it comes to the childhood vaccine schedule. And that is something that Kennedy has also repeatedly asked questions about.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

What about the kids who lost IQ one or two points, who are depressed, who are not functioning, who can't, who are socially awkward, all of these injuries that are invisible from the vaccines?

[Lauren Weber]

His hand picked vaccine committee, the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, actually reiterated something that he's wanted to do for a long time, which is that they said they were going to dig into the childhood vaccination schedule. And that's something that for years Kennedy has said. You know, he's complained about the number of shots on the schedule and raised questions about whether or not they have harmful side effects.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

Today children get between 69 and 92 vaccines before they're 18. Not one of those vaccines is ever really high.

[Lauren Weber]

Those are not all mandatory. Those are all mandatory questions that public health experts say are not based in fact.

[Host (Sean Ramsford)]

So does that mean there might be changes ahead for like mandatory childhood vaccines?

[Lauren Weber]

It's hard for him to make those changes. Those are often made at the state level. But there is growing concern from public health officials and public health experts that some of what he is doing could remove access to vaccines or vaccine development. There's also concern that he'll use the bully pulpit that is the head of HHS to continue to cast doubt on vaccines. At a time that we're already seeing rising vaccine hesitancy. It's important to remember that for some diseases, if the number of folks vaccinate is underneath a certain percentage point, then you're more likely to see disease spread within the community. Depending on where you are, that could be the case. And so there's a lot of concern that as he continues to spread doubt about the vaccines, what kind of impact that could have going forward.

[Host (Sean Ramsford)]

And so you're talking about casting doubt on vaccines that maybe kids are getting, but this becoming a bigger issue for vaccines across the board.

[Lauren Weber]

Yes, because if you continue to see increasing hesitancy, you're going to continue to see more risk of an outbreak. But on top of that, Kennedy has he fired all the members of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices which advises the CDC on, on vaccine safety.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

We fired that board because they were, it was utterly, it was Just an instrument. It was a sock puppet for the industry that it was supposed to regulate.

[Lauren Weber]

They said whether or not the CDC recommends various vaccines. And they had a meeting in June. After all, he had fired all of these members that were highly credentialed, you know, top scientific experts and replaced them with what ended up being seven members who many experts I spoke to said just did not have the same credentials, many of whom had also expressed concern about the COVID vaccine and some falsehoods about the COVID vaccine. And so there is some concern going forward that this advisory committee could alter what is the vaccine schedule as well as change how the government looks at vaccines. We've seen for the first time, the American Academy of Pediatrics, for the first time in several decades, the AAP has said that they will be putting out their own vaccine recommendations that are different than the federal government because they don't trust in what Kennedy and HHS is planning.

[Katherine Wu]

At a time when there's confusion in Washington around vaccine recommendations, I want to remind you that you can look to the American Academy of Pediatrics for clarity around childhood immunizations.

[Host (Sean Ramsford)]

Yeah. Help us better understand the relationship the Department of Health and Human Services has when it comes to vaccines versus, say, the authority in power states have. Because you're mentioning there that RFK doesn't actually have the power to say, hey, states, you're not going to issue those vaccines anymore.

[Lauren Weber]

Yeah. So vaccine mandates. Many of you listening may have kids that go to school. Those are set at the state level. But the state does often take its cue from the federal recommendations, from the CDC recommendations. But at the end of the day, states set their own rules. Right now, you know, the measles vaccine is mandated in all states for children entering kindergarten, I believe. So that would be difficult. It's not like Kennedy with one stroke of his pen, could change that. That would have to change at a state level. If his HHS of his CDC comes out and says, we believe, or his fda, you know, Food and Drug Administration comes out and says, we do believe that XYZ vaccine isn't safe, then that could have a cascading effect. So on what that looks like for other. For kids going to school.

[Host (Sean Ramsford)]

So we've got RFK saying vaccines are bad. Generally, we've got, obviously, scientists strongly disagreeing. And then we have the president sort of waffling between the two as parents, as citizens. What is the public to do to make sense of the situation we're in right now?

[Lauren Weber]

Well, I wanna say one thing. I do think since Kennedy has gotten into office, he's been more careful than to just say VACC are bad. I mean, I reviewed many hours of his prior remarks before becoming HHS secretary and he was much more upfront about saying vaccines cause autism, a false statement than he has been since becoming HHS secretary. He does this thing that a lot of experts call doublespeak, where he'll sort of half heartedly endorse a vaccine, but then talk about all of its potential side effects or say things about it that are misleading or untrue.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

I'm not going to take people's vaccines away from. What I'm going to do is make sure that we have good science so that people can make an informed choice. And we are doing that science today so that we know the risks of that product and we also know what the benefits are. And right now we don't know the risks of many of these products.

[Lauren Weber]

If you are an average parent and you're hearing kind of this whirlwind of things about questions and vaccines and what does it mean? Is it safe? What's, what are the risks? I think it injects a lot of doubt into the average parent's mind who doesn't have time to read through all the studies or to understand exactly what's even being talked about. And so I think that leads to what we're seeing, which is a growing distrust in government institutions, a growing distrust in vaccines, and potentially a growing hesitancy that could get even worse.

[Host (Sean Ramsford)]

Are we seeing that confusion play out already?

[Lauren Weber]

We have seen a growing number of parents opt their kindergartners out of vaccination. It's still a small number. I mean, it's a little over 3%. I mean, it's not groundbreaking in the terms of. It's not the vast majority of Americans are still getting their child vaccinated, but we are seeing growing hesitancy over the last couple years. And many folks that I speak to, both parents who have chosen not to vaccinate and experts say we've seen a lot of reticence since COVID There's a lot of people that took their distrust of the COVID vaccination and that distrust spread to the other vaccines. And a lot of anti vaccine groups and activists really seized upon the COVID moment to push their message.

[Host (Sean Ramsford)]

Can the next President of the United States, as long as it's I guess not RFK Jr. Undo all of this if they so chose?

[Lauren Weber]

I think it's really hard to undo fear. It's really hard to undo hesitancy. It's really hard to undo the level of doubt that's been injected into this process. I mean, it's very striking. I mean, look, I mean, in Trump, Trump's first term, there was also a measles outbreak and the HHS secretary then Alex Azar, forcibly went on TV and said, please get your child vaccinated. Please stop misinformation around vaccines. That is very different than what we have seen from this HHS secretary who has implied various things about the measles vaccination and at times questioned whether it's linked to autism. I mean, it's a very different world in which we live. And while some of the actions he has done about you could change who makes up the advisory committee on immunization practices, you could change who staffs the FDA and cdc. Sure, that could probably be changed, but I think the number of parents who now are very confused is going to be harder to push back upon.

[Host (Sean Ramsford)]

Washingtonpost.com is where you can read. Lauren Weber, Avishai Artsy and Denise Guerra produced our show today for the Yellow website. Aminah Al Saadi edited Laura Bullard fact checked David Tadashore and Andrea Christensdatter mixed with help from Patrick Boyd. This is Today Expl.

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