The Good, the Bad, and the Biden

Summary

Today, Explained: Episode Summary – "The Good, the Bad, and the Biden"

Release Date: January 13, 2025 | Hosts: Sean Rameswaram & Dylan Matthews | Produced by Vox

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Introduction

In the episode titled "The Good, the Bad, and the Biden," hosts Sean Rameswaram and Dylan Matthews delve into a comprehensive assessment of President Joe Biden's administration. As the United States approaches a significant transition of power, the discussion navigates through Biden's policy accomplishments, shortcomings, and his overall effectiveness as a leader.

Assessing Biden's Presidency

Dylan Matthews offers a critical perspective on Biden’s leadership, characterizing his presidency as "mid-tier" and "mediocre." He asserts that Biden's age and perceived indecisiveness have undermined his effectiveness:

Dylan Matthews [00:17]: "I think Biden is a pretty mid-tier mediocre president. ... he is an unusually weak president ... made him less effective than he could have been in the moment."

Matthews highlights that Biden often deferred critical decisions to his advisors, leading to inconsistent leadership:

Dylan Matthews [03:03]: "Over who Biden spoke with and what they said to him ... make you sort of weaker and less effective."

Domestic Policies and Economic Measures

American Rescue Plan

The discussion begins with the American Rescue Plan, a $1.9 trillion stimulus package aimed at mitigating the economic fallout from the COVID-19 pandemic. Matthews acknowledges its immediate impact on unemployment and poverty reduction but criticizes its long-term economic consequences:

Dylan Matthews [04:33]: "The American rescue plan ... it's a megalopolis of bills."

While the plan successfully reduced unemployment to sub-4% and cut child poverty by half, Matthews later revises his stance on its role in inflation:

Dylan Matthews [06:24]: "I no longer think [warnings about inflation] was ridiculous."

Build Back Better and the Inflation Reduction Act

Biden's flagship initiative, initially known as Build Back Better and later rebranded as the Inflation Reduction Act, aimed to address infrastructure and environmental concerns. Matthews critiques the act for being more of a "marketing exercise" without effectively tackling inflation:

Dylan Matthews [06:54]: "I can't name a single one of them who thinks it reduced inflation."

He commends certain aspects, such as the commitment to chip manufacturing, which seeks to reduce dependency on foreign producers:

Dylan Matthews [17:37]: "Making sure that the world has a process to build these things ... seems good."

However, Matthews points out the Act's reliance on incentives rather than punitive measures, limiting its effectiveness:

Dylan Matthews [18:50]: "The Inflation Reduction act was all carrots and no sticks."

International Policy and Leadership

Afghanistan Withdrawal

Matthews provides a nuanced view of Biden's handling of the Afghanistan evacuation, acknowledging it as bungled but also recognizing the decisiveness in ending a two-decade-long involvement:

Dylan Matthews [10:37]: "Choosing to go through with withdrawing showed more decisiveness than most American presidents."

Relations with Israel and Ukraine

Biden's diplomatic approach towards Israel and Ukraine is described as "relentlessly sucking up to Netanyahu" while being indecisive in supporting Ukraine with necessary weaponry:

Dylan Matthews [10:56]: "Biden embarked on a strategy of sucking up pretty relentlessly to Netanyahu ... weirdly coy about releasing certain weapons that the Ukrainians need."

This perceived lack of clear stance is seen as indicative of his broader indecisiveness on the international stage.

Economic Impact and Legacy

Despite criticisms, Matthews acknowledges positive outcomes from Biden's policies:

• Employment and Wages: Rapid reduction in unemployment and wage growth, particularly at the lower economic tiers.
• Chip Manufacturing: Initiatives to revive domestic chip production, reducing reliance on foreign entities like TSMC in Taiwan.

Dylan Matthews [16:44]: "We didn't do that in the 2010s. I think that's one part that I think will endure."

However, the episode underscores the mixed legacy, highlighting that while some measures were beneficial, others, like the Inflation Reduction Act's approach to climate initiatives, fell short of comprehensive impact.

Criticisms and Shortcomings

The episode delves into several areas where Biden's administration faltered:

• Student Loan Debacle: The administration's attempt to cancel student debt was met with Supreme Court opposition and led to significant delays in financial aid processing, demonstrating ineffective use of executive power:

  Dylan Matthews [21:14]: "... they spent all their time on it and they weren't doing the normal functioning of the department."

• Executive Orders and Reversibility: Matthews expresses skepticism about the lasting impact of Biden’s executive orders, suggesting they are easily reversible and lack substantial influence:

  Dylan Matthews [20:19]: "There's no magic wand."

• Alignment with Party Over Personal Leadership: Biden is critiqued for being a "safe state Democrat" who aligns with party directions rather than exhibiting strong, independent leadership, making decisive actions difficult:

  Dylan Matthews [22:34]: "He goes where the party's going ... it's really bad. In an executive, you need someone who has opinions."

Biden's Legacy: The Good Amidst the Bad

Despite the various criticisms, Matthews identifies certain accomplishments that may stand the test of time:

• Economic Recovery: Rapid unemployment reduction and wage growth.
• Reducing Inequality: Significant decrease in economic inequality from 2021 to 2024.
• Domestic Manufacturing: Successful efforts to rebalance chip manufacturing within the United States.

Dylan Matthews [16:42]: "It did, I think, increase inflation in a way that proved very politically unpopular. It also ended what recession existed ... reduction in inequality ... making sure that the world has a process to build these things ... seems good."

Conclusion

Sean Rameswaram and Dylan Matthews conclude the episode with a reflection on Biden's complex legacy. While acknowledging certain policy successes, the overarching narrative portrays Biden as a president hampered by age, indecision, and an inability to exercise strong leadership. Matthews expresses a sentiment of disillusionment, feeling misled about Biden's capabilities and intentions:

Dylan Matthews [25:34]: "I was lied to about what you were going to do ... this is how it feels to be lied to."

The episode underscores the nuanced and multifaceted nature of Biden's presidency, recognizing both its achievements and its shortcomings.

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Notable Quotes:

• Sean Rameswaram [00:01]: "All signs seem to indicate that one week from today the United States will break from recent tradition and have a peaceful transition of power."

• Dylan Matthews [02:23]: "Joe Biden was ultimately a weak president."

• Dylan Matthews [09:49]: "This is how it feels to be lied to. This is how it feels to be cheated."

• Dylan Matthews [16:41]: "I think the commitment to bringing chip manufacturing specifically back to the US seems ... good."

• Dylan Matthews [22:34]: "He goes where the party's going ... In an executive, you need someone who has opinions."

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Production Credits:

Produced by Peter Balinon Rosen, edited by Matthew Collette and Miranda Kennedy, fact-checked by Laura Bullard, and mixed by Patrick Boyd and Andrea Christensdotter.

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Upcoming Episodes:

The hosts tease an upcoming episode on the politics of fire and solicit listener stories about gentle parenting and generational differences in child-rearing practices.

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This comprehensive analysis provides listeners with an in-depth understanding of the main themes and discussions from the podcast episode, offering insights into President Biden's administration's complexities and its impact on both domestic and international spheres.

Transcript

[Sean Ramaswamy]

All signs seem to indicate that one week from today the United States will break from recent tradition and have a peaceful transition of power. It felt like a good time to assess Joe Biden's presidency, which his staff would have you believe is one of the most consequential in American history. FDR esque.

[Dylan Matthews]

I admire their loyalty to their boss, but I think Biden is a pretty mid tier mediocre president. I don't think he's awful. I don't think he's a horrible threat to freedom. The way that you might hear on Truth Social the main way I would describe Joe Biden is that he was an unusually weak president and he was in many important moments, loathed to decide when we really needed a president to decide. And I think that that ultimately made him less effective than he could have been in the moment.

[Sean Ramaswamy]

The Good, the Bad, and the Biden Vox's Dylan Matthews is going to help us assess on Today Explained. Support for Today Explained comes from Attentive. Are you paying attention? How can you help your business stand out in the crowded world of SMS and email marketing? Well, Attentive wants to help. Attentive is the SMS and email marketing platform that was designed to help marketers transform every interaction into a personalized experience. Attentive's advanced AI adjusts each message's content, tone and timing to help marketers build and connect with the right audiences. If you want to take your customers on a journey created just for them, visit attentive.comtodayexplained to learn more.

[Mike Gitlin]

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[Sean Ramaswamy]

Today explained Sean Ramas firm here with Dylan Matthews from Vox who thinks President Biden was ultimately a weak president.

[Dylan Matthews]

So I think there's sort of the causes of the weakness and there's the symptoms of the weakness and I think the causes of the weakness there's a bunch Joe Biden is really old like it's a hard thing to Breaking news.

[Joe Biden]

Come on man.

[Dylan Matthews]

And I think being the president is a very hard and demanding job and the amount of energy and focus you're able to bring to it really affects how Impactful you can be. Bill Clinton was famous for staying up till 2, 3 in the morning, like, pouring over policy documents with aides trying to sort things out. But Biden seems like he was perhaps the opposite extreme.

[Joe Biden]

I was exhausted. I didn't listen to my instincts.

[Dylan Matthews]

There's been some reporting from the Wall Street Journal that a lot of decisions got devolved down to his national security advisor or his economic counsel that ordinarily would be decisions for the President that he had sort of good days and bad days, days when he could hear stuff in days when he couldn't. The Wall Street Journal is out with a new bomb report where they spoke to about 50 people or more involved in the Biden White House.

[Claire White]

According to the Journal, there were limits.

[Dylan Matthews]

Over who Biden spoke with and what they said to him going back to the start of his presidency.

[Unknown]

Even cabinet members who were kept at.

[Dylan Matthews]

Arm'S length, that's going to make you sort of weaker and less effective. But I think a lot of it also has to do with his position within the party. If you go back to the 2020 primary, it was not as though Joe Biden won a sweeping mandate that showed he was much more popular than everyone else running against him. I think that left him sort of owing a lot of people a lot of favors and who had to manage a lot of different factions. And I think that put him in less of a good position to make difficult decisions and expect people to follow him.

[Sean Ramaswamy]

Let's talk for a moment about what he actually did, his. His major accomplishments and, and whether they'll be remembered in 10 years or not. Starting with the American rescue plan. Remind us what that was and what Joe Biden did and, and didn't do in terms of, you know, the priorities there.

[Dylan Matthews]

So let's, in our heads, go back to January 2021.

[Joe Biden]

Vaccine distribution, violence sought to shake the Capitol's very foundation.

[Dylan Matthews]

Things are maybe starting to open up, but they kind of shouldn't. People are largely locked down. Offices are not reopened. The American rescue plan was Biden's sort of stimulus package for that moment. And it was a mix of a lot of different things.

[Joe Biden]

By the time all the money is distributed, 85% of American households will have gotten a $1,400 rescue checks.

[Dylan Matthews]

But there was a lot of other parts, too. They gave a lot of money to states to spend as they saw fit. There was a lot of funding for programs like food stamps, Medicaid. There was also a expansion of the child tax credit, which did a lot to cut poverty that year.

[Joe Biden]

That's the estimate child poverty will be cut in half as a consequence of what's in this Recovery Act.

[Dylan Matthews]

It was a very, very big package. It was about $1.9 trillion.

[Joe Biden]

It's one thing to pass a historic piece of legislation like the American rescue plan, and it's quite another to implement it. And the devil is in the details.

[Dylan Matthews]

So Biden's line was, this is what we need to emerge from this catastrophe. It was very much like we're in an emergency. Yes, this is a massive bill, but we need a massive bill to get out of this. I want to be clear that I was saying that in the moment. A lot of people were saying that in the moment, but there were people at the time who were saying maybe this is too big. Larry Summers is probably the most famous of them, but was warning that this was such a massive package that it would predictably cause inflation. And at the time I thought that was ridiculous. I no longer think it was ridiculous.

[Sean Ramaswamy]

We made an episode titled How Dylan Got Inflation Wrong.

[Dylan Matthews]

Yeah. My brand as a journalist is I'm wrong a lot. I don't know why people keep paying me for that, but.

[Sean Ramaswamy]

So I guess the American rescue plan might best be remembered for causing a bunch of inflation. But Biden then got the build back better agenda, eventually passed under a different name, the Inflation Reduction Act. Did that right the wrongs of the American rescue plan.

[Dylan Matthews]

So I don't know. I know a lot of people who are very enthusiastic about the Inflation Reduction Act. I can't name a single one of them who thinks it reduced inflation. I think there's near unanimous agreement that that was like a marketing exercise.

[Sean Ramaswamy]

Yeah, a good one maybe, but yeah.

[Dylan Matthews]

I think the core of my critique of Biden is his handling of the build back better process. That this was. This was like his big initiative domestically. In the first two years he had a congressional majority. It was like the two years when Obama passed Obamacare or George W. Bush passed the Bush tax cuts. Trump passed the Trump tax cuts. Like this window that presidents often get where Congress is on their side and they can pass something big domestically. I think the big error of Biden is that build back better from the beginning was not one thing. It was a hodgepodge of a lot of different things.

[Joe Biden]

It's a long term investment in American families, clean energy, addressing the climate crisis, housing, child care, education, health care, nearly every Democratic priority.

[Dylan Matthews]

And when it became clear that they could not do all of those things just politically, that they didn't have the votes to pass everything they wanted, they never decisively made a choice to do one of them and to do it well. And the problem was they had a very thin majority in the Senate that included sort of two problem senators in Christian Sinema of Arizona and Joe Manchin of West Virginia. December 2021. Manchin made an offer that would include universal pre K permanently, as well as expanded healthcare subsidies and clean energy credits. So it's a lot of what they want. It's not everything. And Biden said no and put out a statement blaming Manchin for the impasse.

[Joe Biden]

Come on, man.

[Dylan Matthews]

And Manchin went on Fox News and told Biden the bill was dead.

[Joe Biden]

I cannot vote to continue with this piece of legislation. I just can't. I've tried everything humanly possible.

[Dylan Matthews]

I can't get there. And then Biden put out another statement calling Manchin a liar, saying Manchin's comments were, quote, at odds with his discussions this week with the president. And then it all broke down. Biden, despite decades in the Senate, knowing that senators are petulant little babies who you have to appease, just like, didn't do it. And I think to some degree this speaks to his weakness is reading accounts of this. He just comes across as a guy who could not stand people being mad at him. And that's a person who cannot make clear decisions. Because if you make clear decisions, someone is going to be disappointed by them.

[Sean Ramaswamy]

Dylan, we've been talking about domestic issues here, but obviously the United States is a important actor on the global stage. And it didn't feel like Biden seemed particularly strong there either. I mean, after October 7th, he goes to Israel and says, when America experienced.

[Joe Biden]

The hell of 9 11, we fell enraged as well. While we sought and got justice, we made mistakes. So I caution the government of Israel not to be blinded by rage.

[Sean Ramaswamy]

And that's kind of what happens. Ukraine, you've got a whole lot of last minute decisions because this hasn't played out like he would have wanted. And, and now Trump's coming in and might shake the whole situation up. The Afghanistan evacuation, obviously an embarrassment for the United States, was he also generally weak on the international stage?

[Dylan Matthews]

So I'll disagree with one, one part of that, which is just to say that I think the while the actual evacuation from Afghanistan was bungled, just choosing to go through with withdrawing showed more decisiveness than most American presidents had showed on Afghanistan for the previous two decades.

[Sean Ramaswamy]

Fair.

[Dylan Matthews]

But I think on Israel and on Ukraine, there's definitely something to that. Biden embarked on a strategy of sucking up pretty relentlessly to Netanyahu even as tens of thousands of civilians were being killed by bombs. That is an important part of his legacy on Ukraine. I do think they've been weirdly coy about releasing certain weapons that the Ukrainians need, things like ATACMs and F16s. Took a while for the US to agree to send them because they were worried about Russia's response. It sort of speaks to this indecisive, not willing to take a clear sand mindset that they brought to a lot of issues like do you want to win or not? And similarly in Israel, like do you want to stop the killing or do you not?

[Sean Ramaswamy]

We're going to ask Dylan what Biden did that might actually stick when we return on TODAY Explained.

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[Sean Ramaswamy]

Today Explained is back with Dylan Matthews from Vox. Dylan, we've spent plenty of time talking about weaknesses, missed opportunities, where Biden could have been a little bit more decisive, a leader. But I want to ask you what he did that might actually stick? What might be recalled fondly, I don't know when it's his funeral in 50 years. What do you think?

[Dylan Matthews]

So I think I want to speak up, having just trashed it for the American rescue plan here. What? So some movies that I think are sort of okay, I think are okay because they're like boring and fine and others I think are okay because some parts I think are brilliant and other parts I think are terrible.

[Sean Ramaswamy]

Yeah.

[Dylan Matthews]

And they just, like, exist in the same movie. And the American rescue plan is like one of those movies. It's the megalopolis of bills. So go back to the club.

[Sean Ramaswamy]

Wow.

[Dylan Matthews]

It did, I think, increase inflation in a way that proved very politically unpopular. It also ended what recession existed and got us back to sub 4% unemployment, like, really, really fast. Wages started growing, especially at the bottom. You saw a big reduction in inequality in the years like 2021 to 2024. That's a hard thing to do. We didn't do that in the 2010s. I think that's one part that I think will endure. I think the commitment to bringing chip manufacturing specifically back to the US Seems like it's been more successful than I thought it would be.

[Joe Biden]

America invented these chips, but as time went on, we went from producing 40% of the world's chips down to just over 10%. That's why I designed and signed the Chips and Science act, because how can we remain the greatest nation in the world without leading the world in science and technology?

[Dylan Matthews]

Tsmc, the big Taiwanese chip maker, has a plant in Arizona, and they're saying that their workers there are as good as their workers in Taiwan. And it's all going according to plan. That's not something that I think anyone voted on in 2024. But making sure that the world has a process to build these things that the world runs on that is not entirely located on a tiny island that is constantly on the verge of being invaded seems good.

[Sean Ramaswamy]

Fair. While we're talking about things that he actually accomplished in Congress and maybe given them a second chance. The Inflation Reduction act, you know, dedicated hundreds of billions of dollars to updating infrastructure and. And to environmental initiatives across the country. States red and blue and purple. And yet it feels, Dylan, like we are not seeing a lot of what Biden set out to accomplish being realized. There's been reporting on how tens of billions of dollars have been spent on updating broadband infrastructure, but yet not one house has. Has seen the benefits of that investment. What is going on?

[Dylan Matthews]

It's not great. The Inflation Reduction act was all carrots and no sticks. And I think to some degree, that was a smart political decision. The sticks in this case would have been something like a carbon tax, something like cap and trade, something that actually, like, put a price on polluting. And it became clear that there weren't the votes for that. So there was a decision made to do this entirely through compliments and roses. Instead of making it more expensive to drive a gas car, you make it Cheaper to buy an electric car. Instead of making it more expensive to run a natural gas plant, you make it cheaper to run a solar plant.

[Joe Biden]

When I took office, we set a goal to produce 100% carbon free electricity by 2035. Because of my commitment to clean energy future made in America, clean energy companies started investing here.

[Dylan Matthews]

The issue is loans. Like, you just need to buy things that are really expensive upfront. And so having to pay more interest on those loans is really, really bad. And they had to pay a lot more interest because there was a lot of inflation. And to fight the inflation, the Fed had to raise interest rates. And so it's this like one hand of the Biden administration's policymaking that sort of overheated the economy, led to inflation, raised interest rates. That is then sort of helping to strangle another part of the economy that more than the rest of the energy sector really relies on low interest rate to succeed.

[Sean Ramaswamy]

You know, we started off the Biden presidency, Dylan on this show talking about dozens of executive orders. Is any of that stuff that he did on the border, on the climate, on international policy, gonna stick around, or is it just so easy to reverse? I mean, the most recent one we saw, of course, was this. Preserving a bunch of our coasts from offshore drilling.

[Dylan Matthews]

Obama got a lot of crap for not being willing to do as much with executive power as a lot of activists wanted him to do. And I think the experience with trying to use executive power a lot more under Biden sort of gave us one answer of why I think a lot about the student loan situation.

[Joe Biden]

By freeing millions of Americans from this crushing debt of student debt, it means they can finally get on with their lives. Instead of being put, their lives being put on hold.

[Dylan Matthews]

They canceled a lot of debt. They did not cancel all of it. And so there was still a lot of discontent among activists who were calling for this. The Supreme Court said it was illegal for them to do this. And so sort of a lot of their efforts got overturned and just didn't happen. And at the same time, while this was happening, there was this colossal screw up within the Department of Education around fafsa, which is the financial aid form. Just like hundreds of thousands of people applying for college financial aid didn't get it or were severely delayed because the department was sort of backed up in processing it. I think there's a lot of indications that that happened because all their energy was on the student loan thing. That turns out they can't do that, the Supreme Court says is illegal. But they spent all their time on it and they weren't doing the normal functioning of the department of getting financial aid to people who need it right now. I think that's a real cautionary tale. You need to just run the government well. And all these sort of exotic uses of presidential powers to do things that Congress won't let you do. There's no magic wand.

[Sean Ramaswamy]

And it's so easy to chalk up falling down on the job, being absent, being absent minded to his age. Is it really that simple, Dillon, or is that reductionist? What do we think?

[Dylan Matthews]

I think his age probably has something to do with it, but I think something you hear from both admirers and critics of Joe Biden is that he goes where the party's going. In the 80s, when you had to be sort of like a moderate Democrat to get anywhere, he was talking about the death penalty and being tough on crime.

[Joe Biden]

The president's plan doesn't include enough police officers to catch the violent thugs, not enough prosecutors to convict them, not enough judges to sentence them, and not enough prison cells to put them away for a long time.

[Dylan Matthews]

Then you move to the Obama years and he's like a loyal Obama Democrat.

[Joe Biden]

Now is the time to heed the timeless advice from Teddy Roosevelt, speak softly and carry a big stick, end of quote. I promise you, the president has a big stick.

[Dylan Matthews]

You move to 2020 and he sort of soaks up a lot of this, like Bernie and Warren energy left during the general election in a kind of surprising way.

[Joe Biden]

A phenomenal opportunity to deliver a bold progressive vision to the American people, guaranteeing that every American has health care, affordable health care.

[Dylan Matthews]

He sort of moves with the party, and I think that is a very sensical thing to do as a safe state Democrat in the Senate, like, that is probably the optimal strategy. It's really bad. In an executive, you, like, need someone who has opinions.

[Sean Ramaswamy]

You know, when I think back to Biden's campaign, Dylan, I was never wowed. Certainly it was no Obama campaign in, you know, 2008 or even 2012. But if I can think of one pledge he made, he was like, you know, Charlottesville was ugly. It was heinous. It is not who we are. I'm going to get into office and reset the tone. Did he ultimately at least succeed there? And is any success wiped out by the fact that literally the guy who preceded him is going to be the guy who succeeds him?

[Dylan Matthews]

Well, nothing like Charlottesville happened when Biden was president. So I'll give him that in the very most narrow of senses. I think if you think more broadly, as The Trump era was an era not just of sort of organized racism, but of corrupt patronage, sort of familial based circles of nepotism and self dealing. I found his decision to pardon Hunter predictable, but sort of the ultimate punchline on that aspiration. If you're going to run against someone because you think that they don't believe in the rule of law and that they put their cronies and their family ahead of the common good to then go around and pardon your son for crimes that he for sure did like what are we doing here?

[Sean Ramaswamy]

So you don't buy his argument that you know his son was going to be unduly prosecuted for those crimes?

[Dylan Matthews]

I think there's all kinds of people who are probably going to be unduly prosecuted for their crimes in the Trump years. None of them got pardons. I guess we'll still see. But he did pardon his son. That seemed important to him and it's not the biggest thing in the scheme of his administration. But I think a major feeling I have about the Biden years is I was lied to. I was lied to about what you were going to do. I was lied to about the extent of your mental capabilities and the degree of your aging. And that was, that was a moment of right. This is how it feels to be lied to. This is how it feels to be cheated.

[Sean Ramaswamy]

DYLAN matthews, I'll never lie to you.

[Dylan Matthews]

I'll never lie to you. Sean.

[Sean Ramaswamy]

Dylan's Biden epic [e-mail] on Tuesday. It'll be titled the President who Couldn't Choose.

[Dylan Matthews]

We ended like a rom com.

[Sean Ramaswamy]

Our program today was produced by Peter Balinon Rosen. He was edited by Matthew Collette and Miranda Kennedy. Fact checked by Laura Bullard and mixed by Patrick Boyd and Andrea Christensdotter. I'm Shawn Ramiswerm and here's something a little different. We're working on an episode about gentle parenting. Like Talking to your 3 year old about their big feelings might feel totally normal to you, but maybe you're parents think it's a little over the top. We're hoping to hear from you younger parents about the differences you have with your boomer parents when it comes to raising your kids. We want to hear you vent, but we also want to hear from grandma and Grandpa, especially if you all have a sense of humor about the whole thing. Give us a call. If so, 844-453-4488, 4453. That's coming soon on Today Explained. But we're going to dig into the politics of fire on the show tomorrow.