Andrew Prokop (2:47)

Where to start? A lot of this was kind of edgy humor in which they were joking about all sorts of taboo topics. There Was a lot of talk about Hitler, about gas chambers. There are references to black people as watermelon people. Someone says he doesn't want to watch the NBA because he'd go to the zoo if I wanted to watch monkey play ball. And then they refer to a another young Republican figure who's not in the chat as a quote, fat stinky Jew. So a lot of nasty stuff here.

Noel King (3:26)

In your piece for Vox, you focused on the antisemitism. How have Republicans conservatives responded to the group chat from hell?

Andrew Prokop (3:35)

Well, there has been a real split in the reaction over this. Disgusting. If they have government jobs, they should be fired. It's reprehensible.

J.D. Vance (3:45)

Focus on the real issues. Don't focus on what kids say in group chats.

Jamie Cohen (3:48)

All out continues for New York's Young Republican chapter as a pivotal vote to disband the group has been approved.

Andrew Prokop (3:54)

I think the insta reaction from a lot of people was to say this is unacceptable. This, this goes too far. We don't want this kind of thing associated with our movement. And then there's the other reaction, which is basically to rally to their defense, to say that essentially that we shouldn't care about this because Democrats in the.

J.D. Vance (4:17)

Left are so much worse, 1,000 times worse.

Andrew Prokop (4:20)

And the loudest and most vocal proponent of that latter view was the Vice President, the United States, J.D. vance, who of course decided to weigh in on this.

J.D. Vance (4:31)

Focusing on what kids are saying in a group chat. Grow up.

Andrew Prokop (4:34)

He said he refused to join the pearl clutching over what he called inaccurately a college group chat, repeatedly said the participants were kids and young boys.

J.D. Vance (4:45)

And I really don't want us to grow up in a country where a kid telling a stupid joke, telling a very offensive stupid joke is caused to ruin their lives.

Andrew Prokop (4:53)

And at some point, a really interesting debate has kind of emerged on X and on other social media platforms on the right about whether really, should there be a line somewhere, is enough enough? And is this a sign of a worrying trend that blatant antisemitism and bigotry are being normalized among the young right in a way that is worsening and that will have very bad consequences for our society and perhaps for the Republican Party as well?

Noel King (5:34)

Let's go back in time and talk about whether this is a real shocker. Is this the first time we've seen this type of antisemitism in young conservative circles?

Andrew Prokop (5:45)

What I would say is that this is something that has been brewing that has been simmering. It's been kind of in the fever swamps of the young right. Go on message boards like 4chan that have right wing allegiances. This sort of. If you think back to the Charlottesville rally where there were a bunch of relatively young white supremacists chanting things like.

Jamie Cohen (6:11)

You will not replace us, you will not replace us.

Andrew Prokop (6:16)

But this year there have been a series of what I found to be very notable warnings from prominent right wing figures that are very closely in touch with trends on the right that they believed this problem was getting worse and they were worried about it. Christopher Ruffo is of course the leading right wing activist who combated wokeness critical race theory. Very kind of not a moderate figure in really any way.

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Andrew Prokop (6:53)

They can use it itself pronouns.

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Andrew Prokop (7:00)

He wrote in early September an article called the Conservative Movement at a Crossroads. He said that racialism, anti Semitism and conspiracism were entering some corners of mainstream conservatism and that what he was hearing from Republican staffers was that all three trends have, quote, gained a foothold among their Gen Z colleagues in Washington. There have been several other posts like this that I've noted this year. A lot of it seems to be about a kind of culture among young right wingers that's developed where saying extreme and offensive things makes you kind of cool. The commentator Richard Hanania had an article earlier this year where he called this the based ritual. He claims this is a real thing that young maga does when they're in social settings. They kind of compete for who can say the most offensive things or express the most extreme views. And what's interesting is in a sort of joking or am I joking really fashion like there's, you know, of course you're being ironic. You don't really support Hitler, but oh Hitler, you know, he's, he's kind of based, he's, he's maybe kind of cool. But the belief is that this kind of crossed over from what were just like anonymous posters on message boards in the comments who had no power over to low level positions but inside the administration in Republican Hill offices that this kind of thinking and behavior was now becoming more common among like the Republican staffer class. And one reason for this, many argue is the growth of such allegedly antisemitic rhetoric and commentary among popular right wing influencers.

Noel King (8:57)

Like whom?

Andrew Prokop (8:58)

So there is a spectrum of some certain influencers who are just openly anti Semitic, anti, just criticize Jews in that term all the time. This would be like Nick Fuentes.

Jamie Cohen (9:13)

The Jews took over America. They opened the borders.

Andrew Prokop (9:16)

He's been called a white supremacist or a Hitler defender, but he's still pretty far from acceptable among most Republican elite circles. But what's really happened is that this has spread more among this kind of populist, independent influencer class of people who are offering up this commentary, often framed in terms of more conspiracy theories where that often tend to blame Jews or Israelis or Zionists or the Mossad or whoever for various societal problems. But the craziest example of this so far is what unfolded after the killing of Charlie Kirk in September and what happened there. So after Kirk was shot, some conservative figures like Rufo immediately seized on this as a pretext to blame the left. And there's been no evidence or assertion that has any validity that any other person or group was involved in this other than Tyler Robinson, the accused killer. So Rufo is trying to blame the left, but then inconveniently for him, these right wing influencers start floating a different theory that maybe the Jews had something to do with it. You know, to be clear, this has no validity or basis whatsoever. But there was actually a complicated backstory about Charlie Kirk and, and about Israel that has come to light in the month or so since his killing. Kirk had long been a staunchly pro Israel conservative.

Jamie Cohen (11:04)

I am a defender of the nation state of Israel to exist as a.

Andrew Prokop (11:08)

Homeland for the Jewish people. But he was always in touch about where the trends were among the young rights rank and file. He recognized they were increasingly divided over Israel. And he began to feature commentators like Tucker Carlson, who many argue has crossed over into kind of spreading anti Semitic conspiracy theories in his criticism of Israel. And then in early September, in texts that have since leaked, Charlie Kirk texted some of his allies just lost another huge Jewish donor, $2 million a year because we won't cancel Tucker. Jewish donors play into all the stereotypes. I cannot and will not be bullied like this, leaving me no choice but leave the pro Israel cause. And a couple days after that, he was murdered. So this has been the basis for all of these anti Semitic conspiracy theories about Israel or Jews in some way being involved in Charlie Kirk's murder. This is sometimes alluded to in sort of coded fashion. At Kirk's memorial service, Tucker Carlson compared him to Jesus, who he said was killed due to, quote, with a bunch.

Jamie Cohen (12:25)

Of guys sitting around eating hummus, thinking about, what do we do about this guy telling the truth about us? We must make him stop talking.

Andrew Prokop (12:34)

Candace Owens, another very popular figure in this podcast slash influencer space on the right, has Devoted her whole podcast to, like, trying to suss out supposedly the truth about Kirk's killing Bibi Netanyahu in that phone call.

Noel King (12:49)

What took place was a couple of weeks ago, before Charlie lost his life.

Andrew Prokop (12:54)

She's the one who actually first published these leaked texts, which have been confirmed to be authentic. And so as Tucker and Candace have increasingly pushed these conspiracy theories, there's been pushback. And others on the right have said, is enough enough? Like, should we keep associating with these people? Have they gone too far? Or should they be, you know, denounced, shunned, disavowed? And there are very different views on this. People say, you know, they've crossed over into complete antisemitic nonsense. They've been completely lost to reality and cut them loose. A coalition like firing people who say bigoted things, denouncing people with extreme views, deplatforming, have really lost favor among many on the right because they're viewed as kind of the way that the left weaponizes censorship against the right. And they don't want to support censorship. And so they are basically saying, we can't do anything except stand aside while these groups and these ideas continue to gain influence. We'll try to argue against them, to persuade people otherwise, but they have not been doing such a great job of it so far.

Noel King (14:29)

Andrew Prokop, Vox.com Coming up, what's the worst thing you've ever said in a group chat? And honestly, did you mean it literally? You did not. And so we're going to ask, should we give these guys a break? Devil's Avocado ahead. Support for today explained comes from Mint Mobile, the company that thinks sometimes you should just say no. You don't want to get trapped in some overpriced wireless plan, says Mint Mobile. This year, Mint Mobile invites you to say no. At Mint Mobile, their favorite word is no. No contracts, no monthly bills, no overages, no hidden fees. I'm told you can ditch overpriced wireless and those jaw dropping monthly bills and unexpected overages. At Mint, plans start at $15 a month. All those plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on what I'm told is the nation's largest 5G network. You can use your own phone. With any Mint Mobile plan. You can bring your same number along all your existing contacts ready to say yes to saying no. You can make the switch@mintmobile.com explain. That's mintmobile.com explained. An upfront payment of $45 is required. Guys, that's equivalent to $15 a month. This is a limited time new customer offer for three months only. Speeds may slow down above 35 gigs on that unlimited plan. Taxes and fees you should know are extra. C Mint Mobile for details Support for.

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Noel King (17:05)

Support.

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Noel King (18:16)

I'm afraid that if I subscribed to something like Internet, you would really be hooked. I would get hooked and I would never, you know, spend time with Today Explained.

Jamie Cohen (18:28)

Okay, my name is Jamie Cohen and I am an associate professor of Media Studies at CUNY Queens College in New York.

Noel King (18:34)

You spend a lot of time Studying memes, I'm told.

Jamie Cohen (18:37)

Yes. I actually, I tell people I have a PhD in memes, but I really have a doctorate in visual culture and online propaganda, I guess, is the way to think of it. But yes, memes are my main focus of study. Yes.

Noel King (18:48)

Why do you think those Young Republicans were. Were saying what they were saying?

Jamie Cohen (18:52)

I think they've normalized this speech in their communities. It's sort of the way that we code switch into our group chats. We each have our own type of language when we talk to each other, and the sites and places that they communicate or. Or find themselves around online are speaking like this. And so they're just dragging that type of language into their group chats.

Andrew Prokop (19:10)

Yes.

Noel King (19:11)

And then that brings us to the question of if you think that talking this way is normal, whether you really mean it, and we're not inside their heads, we don't know if they really mean it. But one way of determining whether they really mean it is to ask, is this exclusive to young people on the right?

Jamie Cohen (19:32)

There is a space where people, anybody tests the people around them by using speech. The Overton window is the overall borderlands of acceptable speech. But I think each person who holds their ideologies, whether they're left ideologies or right ideologies, tests people by using language that are pretty specific to their space and ideology. And so in these cases, you often hear these words to see if somebody pushes back or not. And if nobody pushes back, you know that that's an acceptable form of speech inside those communities. So it isn't always ideologically to the right. It is ideologically to what is an in group or what you find as a sense of belonging. So it's the way that we test each other to figure it out.

Noel King (20:13)

All right, so we are talking about the Young Republicans and their leaked chat. You will know that Jay Jones, a Democrat who's running for Attorney General in Virginia, said in some texts that he seemed to think were private.

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He fantasized about killing Virginia's Republican state House speaker and about the deaths of that Republican's children.

J.D. Vance (20:33)

A person who is very politically powerful, who is about to become one of the most powerful law enforcement officers in the country. That person seriously wishing for political violence and political assassination is 1000 times worse than what a bunch of young people, a bunch of kids say in a group chat, however offensive it might be. That's just reality.

Noel King (20:53)

What do we take from the example of J. Jones? What does he tell us?

Jamie Cohen (20:57)

So this example is interesting because the difference here is the young Republicans aren't running for office, they might hold positions in their state. But when you're running for attorney general, you really are the person who's kind of responsible for that type of justice. And so that type of speech, I think there's like, that sentence of like wisdom consists of the anticipation of consequences. And when you're running for that position, being inconsequential about that in that speech is irresponsible. And he said he was embarrassed and sorry for what he said was, I.

Andrew Prokop (21:27)

Am ashamed, I am embarrassed, and I'm sorry.

Jamie Cohen (21:32)

But really, that is also abhorrent speech, and it falls under what would be considered threat. And that isn't protected by our First Amendment rights.

Noel King (21:39)

Okay, so what I'm hearing from you is that everybody is behaving badly in the chats. And by everybody, I don't obviously literally mean everybody, but I myself have said things in private group chats. Nothing along these lines, I assure you and our listeners that I would not want anyone to see. This makes me, Jamie, open to the idea that a group chat is essentially harmless. We talk this way in private, but we don't act on this. And we live in 2025. Everyone has the group chat, and everybody is trying to impress their friends with the clever or salty or spicy things that they say. But we need to remember that it's not real life. What do you think about that?

Jamie Cohen (22:23)

In the past several years, probably the last decade, we've replaced community into these digital spaces. We're allowed to be free inside of them. And I think, to be clear, if we lose that freedom, then we've lost connectivity. We do need an ability to express ourselves freer with our group chats in terms of, like, private spaces, in terms of, like, what we would consider community should have the ability to have a flexibility of language that is acceptable among friends. That is how it is. And that's where nuance and like, if you're a friend of somebody, you understand their intonation. So those gray areas are part of how we moderate space in general. So it isn't like a danger that translates from text directly to action. That is completely different. Text to action takes many, many years. I think where I feel this happens is that when you normalize any type of slow violence, meaning, like, these are just jokes at this point. When you normalize that amongst a group of friends, sometimes the borders of your group chat spill out into real life. You forget who you're talking to. You've normalized it so much in your head that your filters have been worn down and I think that's where the borderlands become soft. And I worry about that with Internet culture in general, because so many people that consider themselves extremely online or very online since the pandemic have sort of lost the idea of what the filter is between, like, their online friends and how they. They communicate to their parents, to their friends offline or in classes. To be honest, I've heard things that come out of their mouth which results in a little bit of a red face. So I think sometimes that normalcy creates an accidental okayness that isn't with the right in group.

Noel King (24:04)

And, you know, another argument you heard is that these were young Republicans who were like chair of the Young Republicans in Kansas City and New York. Like, you look at their online profiles, these are not particularly charismatic people. They don't seem as if they are bound for greatness. And so maybe. And you, you know, we've heard conservatives make this argument. They are people at the lower echelon who weren't really heading anywhere. And therefore it's not so much to worry about. What do you think about that?

Jamie Cohen (24:33)

I would ask where J.D. vance was in the echelon 10 years ago. If you assume that he was in the lower echelons of politics a decade ago coming off of a book deal and telling his story, and 10 years ago today being fairly anti Trump. Trump is a really bad candidate and.

J.D. Vance (24:51)

Frankly, I think a really bad person.

Jamie Cohen (24:53)

And then figuring his way into a point where today he uses Twitter and his accounts quite aggressively with his language. And in the defense of these text messages, it just tells you that, yes, at this point, they may be lower echelon in their speech, but there's a likely trajectory of the moving up to potentially the vice presidency or the presidency itself.

Noel King (25:13)

Yeah, Vance is a fascinating case because he is young, he's a millennial. He's a member of the emo community.

J.D. Vance (25:20)

Fade into emo. Mazzy Starr is probably like my favorite song of the entire 90s rock era.

Noel King (25:25)

He almost certainly will run for president in 2028. And he is defending this. This man who's very ambitious, who would probably like to be president someday, is the loudest voice saying, this is no big deal.

Jamie Cohen (25:39)

Right.

Noel King (25:39)

That's really striking. What do we take from that?

Jamie Cohen (25:42)

I guess it surprised me the most when the vice president replied in a quote, tweet to the Krasnsteins, I don't.

Andrew Prokop (25:49)

Give a shit what you call it.

Jamie Cohen (25:50)

When the Krasnsteins called out the Trump administration's bombing of a Venezuelan boat, a war crime. And it was shocking to me because the vice president is a very online character. But the Krasnsteins are well known as reply guys, very popular reply guys on Twitter X space. And they clap back. That's their main goal, is they speak directly back to politicians and try to get that type of attention. So they're popular. They're popular figures. And I thought to myself, in what part of history, at least modern history, would you hear a vice president saying that to a citizen? That would be considered something that would be a gaffe or something that would be so problematic. I mean, I grew up when Dan Quell misspelled potato.

Noel King (26:26)

Yep. So it was weeks of coverage. Yeah.

Jamie Cohen (26:31)

So I was fascinated by that level of aggressive mockery of somebody just saying something on Twitter on X and how much that type of speech has become normalized not just by politics, but by culture and media as well. I do believe that Vance is speaking when he talks about this or covers for these young Republicans. I feel in many ways he's speaking towards the future of the party that he is likely to or imagines himself to inherit. And in that way we're kind of seeing what the new baseline, the bottom is the normalcy of that lower level as it's going to become something more great aggressive in the future. People still see the Internet as another place, but J.D. vance and this chat group shows that like the Internet is everywhere and Internet culture is running our politics and our culture at this point. And we have to really pay very close attention to how J.D. vance speaks because he may be speaking to his echo chamber, but he is expecting that chamber to get much larger and encompass everything around us.

Noel King (27:38)

Jamie Cohen, Professor, Meme Man, Queens College in New York. Denise Guerra and Avishai Aartsy produced today's show. AMN Elsadi edited. Laura Bullard checked the facts, took it a little too far this time. Our engineers are Patrick Boyden, Adrienne Lilly and I'm Noel King. You may know that Vox is currently on sale the whole organization to the highest bidder. I'm just kidding. 30% off an annual membership. Perks, books, newsletters, unlimited reading. No ads on the podcast. If you choose Vox.com members for more it's today explained.

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