The “Joe Rogan of the left”

Summary

Today, Explained: The “Joe Rogan of the Left” – Episode Summary

Released on March 26, 2025 | Hosted by Sean Ramesdell and Noel King | Part of the Vox Media Podcast Network

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1. Introduction to the 2024 Election Analysis

The episode opens with Sean Ramesdell and Eric Levitz delving into the lingering discussions surrounding the 2024 U.S. election. Contrary to initial expectations of moving past the electoral cycle, the hosts highlight that comprehensive data analysis takes time, revealing deeper insights into voting behaviors and demographic shifts.

Notable Quotes:

• Sean Ramesdell [00:00]: “Today explained here with Eric Levitz, senior [e-mail] to talk about the 2024 election. That can't be right.”
• Eric Levitz [00:07]: “Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in.”

2. Key Demographic Shifts in Voting Patterns

David Shore, a senior correspondent, and data expert from Blue Rose Research, presents his analysis of the 2024 election data. He emphasizes a significant shift among traditionally disengaged voters and young demographics swinging towards Donald Trump, challenging previous trends where younger voters leaned Democratic.

Notable Quotes:

• David Shore [02:08]: “Voters who say they don't care much about politics... overwhelmingly for Donald Trump.”
• David Shore [04:00]: “Young people have gone from being the most progressive generation since the baby boomers to becoming potentially the most conservative.”

3. The Rise of Young Republican Voters

Shore explores the reasons behind the unexpected conservative tilt among younger voters, particularly those under 30. Factors include political disengagement, weaker partisan identities, and differing formative experiences compared to millennials. He highlights the alienation caused by the Republican Party’s stance on social issues and demographic changes, such as the rise of Latino voters.

Notable Quotes:

• David Shore [03:37]: “There is a demographic time bomb.”
• David Shore [06:36]: “Maybe this creates kind of an alienation from the Democratic Party and more of an openness to the GOP.”

4. The Influence of Media and Social Platforms

The conversation shifts to the role of media influencers in shaping political opinions. The hosts discuss how platforms like podcasts serve as dominant mediums for elections, with figures like Joe Rogan influencing voter perceptions. The idea of a "Rogan-like" figure on the left becomes a focal point, examining whether such influencers can sway public opinion similarly for Democratic causes.

Notable Quotes:

• Eric Levitz [15:10]: “There's kind of this folk theory of politics... every election has its own dominant medium.”
• Sean Ramesdell [15:36]: “2024 was the stream election or the long form podcast election.”

5. Hasan Piker: The “Joe Rogan of the Left”

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to Hasan Piker, a prominent leftist streamer, and his role in political discourse. Levitz and Shore analyze Piker’s approach, balancing progressive policies with a relatable, bro-coded persona that appeals to young male audiences. They explore how Piker’s authenticity and engagement on platforms like Twitch contribute to his influence, positioning him as a potential leftist counterpart to Joe Rogan.

Notable Quotes:

• Eric Levitz [16:31]: “What they did for those audiences is just expose them to a kind of humanized version of Trump.”
• David Shore [20:47]: “Universal basic income... a drastic wealth redistribution program.”

6. Challenges Faced by Leftist Influencers

The discussion highlights the challenges Piker faces, such as maintaining authenticity while avoiding alienation from more traditional Democratic figures. Instances like his suspension from Twitch for controversial comments illustrate the tightrope he walks in advocating progressive policies without crossing into divisive rhetoric.

Notable Quotes:

• Eric Levitz [21:15]: “He's constantly doing this dance... trying to be a critical ally, but not too allied.”
• Hasan Piker [19:32]: “Universal basic income... a drastic wealth redistribution program.”

7. Democratic Strategies and Future Directions

Shore and Levitz critique the Democratic Party’s attempts to emulate the success of media influencers like Piker. They discuss initiatives by figures like Gavin Newsom and Pete Buttigieg to engage with younger audiences through podcasts and digital platforms. However, concerns are raised about whether these strategies prioritize effective messaging and policy over genuine engagement.

Notable Quotes:

• Eric Levitz [27:06]: “The Democrats want to make this about messaging instead of policy.”
• Sean Ramesdell [28:33]: “It's interesting because he exists in this space where he speaks to the same type of person who might listen to Joe Rogan.”

8. Conclusion: The Evolving Landscape of Political Communication

The episode concludes with reflections on the dynamic nature of political affiliations and the continuous evolution of how political ideas are disseminated. The hosts emphasize that while messaging and media presence are crucial, substantive policy discussions remain essential for long-term political alignment and voter retention.

Notable Quotes:

• Eric Levitz [22:00]: “Americans don't just sort of have set politics. Nobody does. It's always shifting.”
• David Shore [24:49]: “The whole Monday morning quarterback question is not why didn't Kamala go on Rogan? Is why didn't Tim Walls go on Joe Rogan?”

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Final Thoughts

"The “Joe Rogan of the Left”" episode of Today, Explained offers a comprehensive analysis of the unexpected political shifts observed in the 2024 U.S. election, particularly among younger voters. Through insightful discussions with data expert David Shore and explorations of influential figures like Hasan Piker, the hosts unravel the complexities of modern political engagement and the pivotal role of media in shaping voter behavior. This episode serves as a valuable resource for understanding the evolving strategies within the Democratic Party and the broader implications for future elections.

Transcript

[Sean Ramsdell]

Today explained here with Eric Levitz, senior [e-mail] to talk about the 2024 election. That can't be right.

[Eric Levitz]

Eric.

[Sean Ramsdell]

I thought we were done with that. I feel like I'm Pacino in three.

[Eric Levitz]

Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in.

[Sean Ramsdell]

Why are we talking about the 2024 election again?

[David Shore]

The reason why we're still looking back is that it takes a while after an election to get all of the most high quality data on what exactly happened. So the full picture is starting to just come into view now.

[Sean Ramsdell]

And you wrote a piece about the full picture for Vox recently and it did bonkers business on the Internet. What did it say? What struck a chord?

[David Shore]

Yeah. So this was my interview with David Shore of Blue Rose Research. He's one of the biggest sort of Democratic data gurus in the party. And basically the big picture headline takeaways are coming up on Today explained Botox.

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[Eric Levitz]

Learn more at medialabs.into it.com 20202024 the.

[David Shore]

Big Picture headline takeaways are that voters who say they don't care much about politics, who don't follow the news closely, who don't always vote in elections, that group moved really strongly towards Donald Trump. This was a group that was split about evenly between Biden and Trump in 2020 and this time it was overwhelmingly for Donald Trump. I think that what is most striking perhaps in his data is the movements among younger voters.

[Sean Ramsdell]

Aha.

[David Shore]

For the entire time that I've been covering politics, there was a basic narrative where the Republican Party was essentially facing a ticking time bomb where they going to have to fundamentally make more peace with social liberalism and with the welfare state because the rising generations in the United States, millennials and zoomers, just weren't buying what they were selling. And yeah, they can cobble together these Electoral college majorities for a little while, but this is just a matter of time before we get to the progressive majority.

[Eric Levitz]

Between December 2015 and March 2017, among.

[Sean Ramsdell]

Republicans aged to 29, 23% left the party.

[David Shore]

This is an existential crisis for the Republican Party, and we have to have a brutal discussion about it. We alienate young voters because of gay marriage. We have a policy problem. We alienate Latinos, the fastest growing voter group in the country.

[Eric Levitz]

There is a demographic time bomb.

[David Shore]

What happened in 2024 completely upends that sense of demographic destiny. Voters under 30 were narrowly pro Trump even after going for Biden by huge margins in 2020. Every demographic group under the age of 25 is more Republican than the millennial generation was.

[Eric Levitz]

The youth vote traditionally goes to the Democrats.

[Sean Ramsdell]

Not so much in this one. And while Harris underperformed with voters under 30, Trump gained compared to 2020, the biggest driver for Gen Z, the economy.

[David Shore]

Young people have gone from being the most progressive generation since the baby boomers to becoming potentially the most conservative.

[Sean Ramsdell]

What did we learn about why youngs went for Trump?

[David Shore]

Yeah, so I think that the data we have is better at telling us what happened than why. But we do have some informed guesses. I think that one factor here is that it's part of this broader phenomenon of politically disengaged voters moving to the right, that younger people are often a bit less tuned into the news. They've got their own sort of coming of age and lives and romantic lives in college and whatever else occupying a lot of their attention. But there's also just the fact that politically disengaged voters tend to have weaker partisan identities, ideological identities. And it's also true of younger voters, who also often have not fully formed their political identities. Another factor that might explain this divergence between young voters today and the millennial generation are that the two just had different formative experiences. And so the millennial generation, a lot of us, came of age under the second term of the George W. Bush administration. When you saw the Iraq war coming.

[Eric Levitz]

Apart, major combat operations in Iraq have ended.

[David Shore]

Hurricane Katrina destroying New Orleans. In the response really being pretty incompetent, Americans have every right to expect a.

[Eric Levitz]

More effective response in a time of emergency.

[David Shore]

And then, of course, above all, the financial crisis and the Great Recession, the.

[Eric Levitz]

Market is not functioning properly.

[David Shore]

And this is followed by a two term presidency from a really exceptionally charismatic figure, Barack Obama. Yes, we. And so this arguably cements the millennial generation's Lean towards the Democrats. Whereas zoomers, maybe a lot of these younger ones came of age with a Democratic president presiding over Covid.

[Eric Levitz]

We need everyone to keep washing their hands.

[David Shore]

And then rising inflation, that I'm taking.

[Eric Levitz]

Inflation very seriously and it's my top domestic priority.

[David Shore]

And an Afghanistan withdrawal that was really messy.

[Eric Levitz]

13 brave Americans lost their lives along with hundreds of Afghans in a suicide bomb.

[David Shore]

And get this sense that it's a, you know, 80 year old with negative charisma.

[Sean Ramsdell]

Come on, man.

[David Shore]

Who doesn't really speak to them, doesn't really know their references.

[Eric Levitz]

Jason Kelce or Travis Kelce. Mama Kelce. I understand she makes great chocolate chip cookies.

[David Shore]

And so maybe this creates kind of an alienation from the Democratic Party and more of an openness to the gop. So that's one factor. Another explanation is that maybe this cohort of young people was just always going to be a bit more conservative because of who their parents were.

[Sean Ramsdell]

Who are their parents?

[David Shore]

Well, so in some survey data, the baby boom generation is more left wing than Gen X was. And the baby boomers were millennials parents. And Gen Xers are the parents of these young zoomers. And so in some surveys, these young zoomers are more likely to say that their parents were Republican than millennials were. And it's possible that these people had more conservative parents, and so they're a bit more conservative.

[Sean Ramsdell]

So if you're looking for someone to blame for the current political situation of this country, find someone from Gen X.

[David Shore]

Yeah, I think so. Trying to find the reality bites joke here, but I'm not sure I'm gonna get it. All you do around here, Troy, is.

[Sean Ramsdell]

Eat and couch and fondle the remote control.

[Eric Levitz]

I am not under any orders to make the world a better place.

[David Shore]

This is a story about younger voters. As I said, Even women under 25 were more Republican than millennial women under 25 were in earlier elections. But this is kind of primarily a story about young men. So the gender gap among 18 year olds in 2024 was well over 20 points. That's more than double the gender gap among senior voters. It's the largest we've ever seen in American politics. I mean, so that just raises the question of why. Why are young men moving to the right? And I think it's a difficult question to fully answer. There is some evidence, though, that this is not a US specific phenomenon, that we're seeing this same trend in several other countries. In Norway, there's a running poll of high school students where in recent years, the fraction of young men who agree with the statement gender equality has gone too far has spiked. And so you know, what's common between all these different countries? It's tempting to say social media and that there's some dynamic going on in social media where content that is critical of liberal assumptions on gender has a bigger platform than it did maybe in previous eras. You know, on the other hand, there is this global trend where a lot of young men have been given the impression that fundamentally left of center politics and parties cares less about men than about women. And then there's also this sense that there are dysfunctions in the dating market for young people that are breeding resentments, that are then politicized by influencers in the manosphere, that it's because of progressive political culture that you can't find a girlfriend.

[Eric Levitz]

There's this new progressive think and this new generation of women who seem to.

[Sean Ramsdell]

Believe that if we completely fuck it.

[Eric Levitz]

All up, it's going to end up better. I think that feminism has brainwashed a.

[Sean Ramsdell]

Lot of women to think that they.

[Eric Levitz]

Need to play the male role. There's a reason why you take his last name and not the other way around.

[David Shore]

These cultural trends are concerning and they could be persistent, but there is also this opportunity to reach this constituency. Different young male voters are responding to different things and bottom line is not presiding over large price increases, increasing the salience of issues like health care where Democrats have a bit more credibility. These things should help with all voters, including young male voters. Whether after that there's still a persistent because of cultural trends remains to be seen.

[Sean Ramsdell]

What are Democrats to do about the young male voters? Should we ask some young males? Should we ask some podcasters? No, I think. I think we'll ask the New Yorker, the well dressed man and the monocle when we're back on Today Explained.

[Eric Levitz]

Foreign.

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[Sean Ramsdell]

A little bit crazy to start your.

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[Eric Levitz]

Are Back in Town the boys are.

[David Shore]

Back in town.

[Sean Ramsdell]

And so today, explained Andrew Morantz is a boy who's been hanging out with the boys for the New Yorker. Why you ask?

[Eric Levitz]

There's kind of this folk theory of politics which I think actually is has some Truth to it that, like, every election has its own dominant medium. And, you know, 1960 was the TV election. And good evening, the television and radio stations of the United States and their affiliated stations are proud to provide facilities for 2016 was the Twitter election Times listed all the people in the places and things that Donald Trump has insulted.

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I mean, just on Twitter, this is.

[Eric Levitz]

282 people since the start of this campaign. So there was kind of this Monday morning quarterback consensus that 2024 was the stream election or the long form podcast election. And there was kind of this easy narrative, which was, if only there were a Rogan of the left, the Democrats would have pulled it out. And so I sort of wanted to examine how true that was.

[Sean Ramsdell]

And as we've covered on this show before, Trump has spent a lot of time in 2024 going on podcasts that, you know, most people in America have never heard of.

[Eric Levitz]

Totally.

[Sean Ramsdell]

But were probably helpful to his campaign.

[Eric Levitz]

Definitely. I mean, especially because these were pretty easy interviews. Right? I mean, he wasn't really being grilled. So you're way up with cocaine more than anything else you can think of.

[David Shore]

Cocaine will turn you into a damn owl, homie.

[Eric Levitz]

I have two segments I want to do with you. The first one is use one word that comes to mind to describe that person. Okay.

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[Eric Levitz]

Let's start. All right, who is the first picture? And we got the Nelk Boys.

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One word.

[David Shore]

Great.

[Eric Levitz]

What they did for those audiences is just expose them to a kind of humanized version of Trump. You've heard about the super villain, you know, glowering from the Fulton County Jail or whatever. Well, here's the version of Trump that just seems like kind of a chill, approachable dude. And, you know, maybe he's not as bad as all that. How about and we like the Beach Boys. We always like the Beach Boys. We do like the Beach Boys. Who doesn't like the Beach Boys?

[Sean Ramsdell]

And notably here on these shows that Trump was hitting, you did not see representation from the other side, from the left. Which kind of brings us back to the piece you recently wrote for the New Yorker. Called you mad, bro. Although it's also known as the Battle for the Bros because you spent some time with a leftist bro.

[Eric Levitz]

Yeah. So Hasan Piker is really the only major prominent leftist on Twitch. At least the only one who talks about politics all day.

[Hasan Piker]

What's going on, everybody? I hope everyone's having a fantastic evening, afternoon, pre noon, no matter where you are in the world. I'm Hasan Piper in this Dawson breakfast.

[Eric Levitz]

So a lot of the sort of, you know, speculation about could there be a Rogan of the left. You know, a lot of that was focused on him. He's have to, have to just say it outright. Very, very handsome, tall, drink of water. He's, you know, that's a big part of the brand.

[Hasan Piker]

Can I say something? I'm feeling objectified.

[Eric Levitz]

Oh, yeah. He does sort of fitness influencer stuff. He's always going to the gym and you sending around, you know, thirst trap photos.

[Hasan Piker]

This guy this week has been a mess.

[Eric Levitz]

You feed it.

[Hasan Piker]

Don't act like you don't feed it this week. Oh, I'm asking for it.

[Eric Levitz]

What was I wearing? He, you know, plays video games. He does sort of, you know, traditionally guy coded stuff. But then he also like will like wear a pearl necklace and nail polish and, you know, hang out with his gay friends. So he's doing his own thing. But really when he sits down to start streaming, he's basically talking about politics from a very sort of progressive socialist perspective all day long.

[Hasan Piker]

Universal basic income, in the way that I advocate for is a drastic wealth redistribution program. I think that universal basic income.

[Eric Levitz]

He has four monitors, like a bank of monitors. Like he's like a day trader or something. One is just for comments, one is just for his discord. One is his main screen. And when he's locked in, he's just locked in. Like he, you know, goes to the bathroom for 60 seconds and comes back and keeps going. He's like in a flow state for eight to 10 hours a day. When I showed up at his house, you know, we had arranged over text, like, I'll come to your house and I'll hang out with you. This is on a Sunday where he's talking about Syria for hours and hours and hours.

[Hasan Piker]

The morality of Assad is not complex. Assad is a brutal tyrant and also, you know, a dog statesman in general.

[Eric Levitz]

Can't speak for his and his audience. He had like 35,000 people live in his audience. That's like better than a lot of cable networks, especially for, you know, the coveted youth demographic. And then I come back the next day and that happens to be the day that they caught Luigi Mangione. So that was a banger of a stream.

[Hasan Piker]

Normally, as you guys know, this is unlimited phobia in the broadcast. This is the first day where there will be no italiophobia. On this broadcast. We will ban you.

[Eric Levitz]

Then I came back the next day and his guests were Leena Khan, the FTC chair, followed by Ta Nehisi Coates, the famous writer, followed by Stavros Halkias, the famous comedian. Back to, back to back. This is like Gen Z Tonight show kind of thing, right?

[Sean Ramsdell]

And like Lena Khan Ta Nehisi Coates, you'd expect them on like the Ezra Klein Show. But maybe saying favorable things about Luigi Mangione is where Hassan Piker sort of, you know, strikes a different chord.

[Eric Levitz]

Well, and this is the line he's constantly walking in politics of all kinds, right? He's saying Trump is a monster, you can't vote for him. But he's not then saying, here's why Kamala Harris is so great and you really should vote for her. He's basically saying she's the lesser of two evils. But she's really terrible on Gaza. She's really terrible on this other stuff, bro, she's 60.

[Hasan Piker]

I don't know any 60 year old American who doesn't prefer Israel to the scary Muslims sometimes. It's that simple.

[Eric Levitz]

I mean, I was at the DNC in Chicago and Hasan Piker was this sort of, you know, celebrated invited guest. The DNC gave him this really prime real estate and then he said a few too many really edgy things about Gaza.

[Hasan Piker]

They're kicking us out.

[David Shore]

Unlucky.

[Hasan Piker]

I don't know why do you think?

[Eric Levitz]

It's because you said something today they didn't like.

[Hasan Piker]

I did compare DNC to Israel. That might have been the final blow because we got the, we got the call like shortly after I tweeted that.

[Eric Levitz]

So he's constantly doing this dance, right? Trying to be a critical ally, but not too allied. Trying to be edgy on Twitch without getting kicked off. Twitch. He was recently suspended for 24 hours because he talked about maybe killing Rick Scott, a senator. So it's this constant tightrope act which, I mean, honestly makes it more exciting to watch.

[Sean Ramsdell]

And the audience responds to this because it strikes them as authentic.

[Eric Levitz]

Totally. I mean, this is his audience goes way back with him. This is where the parasocial thing really comes into play. I mean, you know, not to break the fourth wall too much, but people have a parasocial relationship with you. They listen to you a lot. People have parasocial relationships with Sarah Koenig from listening to her host serial for 12 hours. But like, this guy is on audio and video all the time with comments floating up the side of his screen that he reads and responds to constantly. So however parasocial people feel about you or Ezra Klein or Sarah Koenig, it's like times a thousand on Steroids all the time. This is part of the appeal, right? I went to, to a gym with him in Encino. You walk into the gym, there is Joe Rogan interviewing Elon Musk on the TV above you. But because he's kind of doing this bro coded thing, he's not like the kind of caricature of the pearl clutching progressive where he has to run away because he's surrounded by Trumpy guys. He can hang. And the ability to hang is the currency of the realm. If you can hang, then you're in and people kind of develop a relationship with you. And then eventually if you go, actually, I think we should have universal health care and treat trans people well and not do mass deportations, then maybe they'll listen to you. And in terms of who they are, I mean, I think part of what's interesting about it, and this goes for Rogan and Theo Vaughn and a bunch of guys on the right as well, is that the audience is constantly changing and moldable and impressionable. I mean, people like. One thing that this piece really reinforced for me is like, Americans don't just sort of like have set politics. Nobody does. It's always shifting. People are always open to persuasion or just kind of shifting their mind on things. That's what Rogan did. That's what a lot of his audience did. So what a lot of Hasan Piker's job is, I think, is taking people who are impressionable and kind of molding them in his direction rather than letting them just sort of fall into the open Internet where they might, you know, get red pilled.

[Sean Ramsdell]

And did you ask him what he thought of being called by some as a Joe Rogan of the left?

[Eric Levitz]

Yeah, he doesn't like it. And his main objection to it is, well, partly he doesn't like it because, you know, it's not cool to be like, oh, please pick me. I would love to be the Joe Rogan of the left, you know. But also his objection to it is the Democrats want to make this about messaging instead of policy. So, you know, the Democrats want to just say, oh, if we just, you know, have more podcasts and, you know, put more TikTok stars on our, you know, campaign ads, you know, that'll solve it. And for someone like Piker, who is a really dedicated, like, socialists, he wants them to do more universal programming. He wants them to go in a Bernie direction instead of a Kamala direction. And so he thinks it's kind of like a shortcut to just do the messaging and not change the policy.

[Sean Ramsdell]

It's interesting because he exists in this space where he speaks to the same type of person who might listen to Joe Rogan. I'm sure there are people who listen to both shows. Do you agree?

[Eric Levitz]

Oh, for sure. Yeah. There's people all over. And you know, just like Joe Rogan used to be on the left, Hasan Piker used to be a big Rogan fan. I mean, he told me about the time he met Joe Rogan, like in this kind of rapturous way. And you know, he also. Theo Vaughn, I would say is kind of reached the number two spot in the Rogan sphere. Yeah, Hasan Piker was on Theo Vaughn's show like a week and a half ago or something. I mean, so there's a. There's a huge amount of overlap when.

[Sean Ramsdell]

You get those crossovers. When Hasan Piker talks to Theo Vaughn. I don't think he's been on Joe Rogan's show, but maybe that's coming. Could we get like a rigorous debate on policy like those, like those Gore Vidal like William F. Buckley joints from the 1960s?

[Eric Levitz]

Shut up a minute. No, I won't. Some people will kind of. Yeah, hopefully without calling each other queer or whatever. Now listen, you stop calling me a crypto Nazi. Let's stop calling names. Goddamn face. You'll stay plastered. I think there is some of that, but actually in a way it's less structured than that. Right, the kind of classic Buckley Vidal debate where you're brought in to do like a point counterpoint on CBS News. Yeah, that's kind of given way to more just kind of like organic relationships. So like the gym bros that I was talking about, they were streamers also. And Hasan will go on their streams and talk about politics, but it's not in a structured like, okay, what do we think about entitlement reform? What do we think about charter schools? Like, it's much more like, I don't know, dude. Like, don't you think this is bullshit? You really think they're going to do what they say? You know, it's much more vibe based.

[Sean Ramsdell]

Where do you think all this is leading? Cuz it's so clear that Democrats are trying something right now. Gavin Newsom has launched a podcast where he's talking to Charlie Kirk and Steve Bannon. You write in your piece that Pete Buttigieg was making overtures to Huss and Piker. Tim Walls came on show. AOC and Bernie were talking to Husson recently. The Democrats are doing something. Is it too early to say if any of it's working?

[Eric Levitz]

Yeah, they are doing something. So I think the Gavin Newsom show is not the answer. The thing that struck me about the Gavin Newsom show, which he started like while I was reporting this, is not even again, the content, it's the vibe. It's like he talks kind of like a McKinsey consultant, like not, not like a person. And whereas Tim Walls, I think, talks like a person. So, you know, you can talk about policy all day long and I think that we should talk about policy all day long. And I, and I agree with the Piker critique that policy maybe matters more than messaging in many cases. But I think when you have someone like Tim Walls who doesn't always put words in the right order and doesn't always speak in complete paragraphs, that guy would do great on a three hour podcast. And so to me, the whole Monday morning quarterback question is not why didn't Kamala go on Rogan? Is why didn't Tim Walls go on Joe Rogan? Like, that's the whole point of having that guy on your campaign, it seems to me. So I do think they're going to keep trying stuff and I think they're going to see kind of by market testing it, what's working. People are clearly trying to get in position and I don't think they will make the same exact mistakes again. The question is, are they only fighting the last war or are they going to figure out whatever the parasocial media of 2028 is going to be?

[Sean Ramsdell]

Andrew Morantz he writes for the New Yorker. New Yorker.com Hasan Piker rumor has it a listener to this show. Hasan, if you're listening, come hang out. Come talk to us. Travis Larchuk and Amanda Llewellyn made the show today. Patrick Boyd and Andrea Christensdotter mixed the show today. Aminah Al Saadi edited the show. Laura Bullard Fact checked the show. I'm Sean Ramsforum. I hosted the show. It's called Today Explained.

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