The rage bait candidate

Summary

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Today, Explained: The Rage Bait Candidate

Episode Date: March 18, 2026
Podcast by Vox | Hosts: Sean Rameswaram & Noel King
Main Guests: Will Sommer (The Bulwark), Stephanie Slade (Reason)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the rise of James Fishback, a long-shot Republican gubernatorial candidate in Florida who has captivated segments of Gen Z conservatives—and provoked widespread alarm due to his embrace of rage bait tactics and racist rhetoric. Through interviews with journalist Will Sommer and conservative commentator Stephanie Slade, the show explores Fishback’s background, the extremist movement he represents, and what his candidacy might say about the future of right-wing politics in America.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Who is James Fishback?

• (00:00–02:06)

  • Background: Fishback, a relative political unknown, worked in finance and allegedly exaggerated his credentials as a hedge fund manager.
    • “He was apparently, according to court documents, a pretty low level employee at a hedge fund. And then he sort of afterwards styled himself as sort of this like real hedge fund expert. They claim he made up his title.” — Will Sommer (02:06)
  • Breakthrough: Gained traction in right-wing media circles by appearing as a “financier expert” and leveraging his notoriety.

• Racial Politics & Identity: Despite being half-Colombian, Fishback has engaged in racist attacks, specifically targeting Black political rivals.

  • “He’s extremely racist to Byron Donalds, the congressman who’s been endorsed by Trump.” — Will Sommer (02:58)
  • “You are under arrest for betraying America to Israel.” — James Fishback, in a mocking skit (03:14)

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Fishback and the Groypers (Nick Fuentes’ Movement)

• (03:54–05:39)
  • Alignment: Fishback is closely aligned with the so-called “groypers,” an online white nationalist movement associated with Nick Fuentes.
    • “I would say that Venn diagram is just about a circle. I mean James Fishback has… really welcomed the Groiper’s support.” — Will Sommer (04:42)
  • Gen Z Appeal: Fishback is considered the closest thing to a groyper-aligned candidate with measurable influence among young Republicans.
  • Online Persona: He creates spectacle and controversy, using memes and viral stunts for attention.

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The New “Rage Bait” Republicanism

• (05:39–08:59)
  • Populist, Authoritarian Proposals: Fishback pitches extreme policies, appealing to resentment and aggrievement.
    • “If you enter the covenant of marriage and then you cheat, you’re giving up everything. You don’t have any rights.” — James Fishback (06:37)
    • “I will pass The Momdani tax, $50,000 property transaction tax for any out of state individual…” — James Fishback (07:07)
    • “Public executions for anyone who associated with Jeffrey Epstein or taxing OnlyFans creators at 50% of their income.” — Will Sommer (08:28)
      • “That is how you disincentivize and deter this degenerate behavior. And we’re going to use the money to increase public school teacher pay.” — James Fishback (08:35)
  • Media Tactics: Fishback leverages clout, trolling, and feuds (e.g., with OnlyFans creators), thriving in the poisoned “attention economy.”

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Impact and Dynamics of Fishback’s Support

• (08:59–11:08)
  • Media Figure vs. Politician: Even if he isn’t likely to win, Fishback accrues influence—and a potential platform as a right-wing celebrity.
    • “These days, in many ways being a right wing media figure is better than being a politician. Maybe not governor, but…” — Will Sommer (09:12)
  • Authenticity vs. Cynicism: Many supporters see him more as a symbol or vehicle for their frustrations, rather than as a sincere political leader.
    • “He’s a guy who has like a certain amount of charisma that appeals to some people and they see him as someone who’s, you know, putting out these, you know, able to capture some energy…” — Will Sommer (10:24)

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Historical Context: Far-Right Fringes in Conservatism

• (14:52–21:08) | Stephanie Slade Interview
  • Tradition vs. Trolling: Modern conservative philosophy (e.g., William F. Buckley, Russell Kirk) emphasized civility and responsibility. Fishback embodies a break from that tradition, trafficking instead in inflammatory, transgressive rhetoric.
    • “They thought that conservatism was a disposition, it was a quality of being… how we preserve a civilization. And so… figures like a James Fishback… are certainly not… in keeping with that tradition.” — Stephanie Slade (16:25)
  • Not Entirely New: The GOP has historically seen waves of fringe or extreme candidates—Wallace, Buchanan—as well as white nationalists like David Duke.
    • “Racism, anti-Semitism, misogyny are things that were not invented by young men in the 21st century.” — Stephanie Slade (19:33)
  • New Element: Today’s far-right figures blend political extremism with “trollish” online influencer behaviors, often for attention and monetization more than policy change.
    • “It’s hard to know… whether they’re actually trying to convince you of something or if they’re just trying to make you mad because they think it’s funny and they like the attention.” — Stephanie Slade (22:08)

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Fishback, Buchanan, and the Trump Aftermath

• (23:08–24:51)
  • Parallel to Past Fringes: Fishback likely won’t become the establishment, but as with Buchanan, minority but significant support can shift party debates.
    • “I don’t see necessarily Fishback as being the next Donald Trump. I think he’s probably more likely to be the next Buchanan… but you never know.” — Stephanie Slade (24:31)
  • Cautionary Note: What starts as a fringe “groundswell” can, if unchecked, sweep through a party—Trump’s 2016 win as evidence.

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Future of the Republican Party?

• (24:51–26:42)
  • Online Young Men: Fishback’s style resonates with a demographic already working internships and jobs in GOP politics.
    • “Don’t discount that, because the very online young men of today are potentially the voting base of tomorrow…” — Stephanie Slade (25:11)
  • Minority, For Now: Despite their noise, these extremist elements are not yet broadly embraced—especially given the broader electorate dynamics.
    • “…Although it’s possible, it is possible that this is the future of Republican politics, that this is gonna be a thing that has to…burn itself out and…lose repeatedly at the polls in order for people to realize, you know, this [isn’t a] winning political recipe.” — Stephanie Slade (26:13)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Fishback’s Racial Politics:
  “He’s really kind of become the face…of the white nationalist, the so-called groyper movement.” — Will Sommer (03:24)
• On Extremism & Attention:
  “He has these kind of mobs that go to waffle houses for events. He’ll say these kind of eye catching ideas…” — Will Sommer (08:21)
• On Historical Perspective:
  “It’s not like racism, anti Semitism, misogyny are things that were invented by young men in the 21st century.” — Stephanie Slade (19:33)
• On the Uncertainty of Political Movements:
  “You never know whether what starts as a groundswell will become the kind of overpowering tidal wave of support that we saw, for example, in 2016 with Donald Trump…” — Stephanie Slade (24:18)
• On the Future of GOP Politics:
  “…it’s possible that this is the future of Republican politics, that this is gonna be a thing that has to…burn itself out and…lose repeatedly at the polls…” — Stephanie Slade (26:13)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 00:00–02:06 – Introduction to James Fishback’s candidacy and career
• 02:06–05:39 – Fishback’s personal history, rise in right-wing media, and association with Nick Fuentes/groypers
• 05:39–08:59 – Fishback’s platform, rage-bait tactics, and online persona
• 08:59–11:08 – The impact and authenticity of Fishback’s following; implications for right-wing media
• 14:52–21:08 – Stephanie Slade’s historical perspective on conservative movements and fringe elements
• 23:08–26:42 – Comparing Fishback to past figures, possible future for party politics, and the role of “very online” young men

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Summary

This episode charts the meteoric, if unlikely, rise of James Fishback—from finance world meme to avatar of Gen Z right-wing agitation. His campaign, media notoriety, and embrace of internet-fueled extremism reflect a larger trend: the blending of fringe politics with online troll culture. Through conversation with Will Sommer and Stephanie Slade, the show places Fishback in the lineage of fringe right figures past and wrestles with what—if anything—his popularity portends for the future of American conservatism and the Republican Party.

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Transcript

[Will Sommer]

Will Sommer, senior reporter at the Bulwark. Who is James Fishback?

Sure. So James Fishback is a candidate, a Republican candidate for governor in Florida.

[James Fishback]

I'm running for Florida governor so I can make life more affordable for you and your family, easier for the world.

[Will Sommer]

He has very little chance of actually winning, but he's getting a lot of attention because he seems to have energized Gen Z Republicans in particular.

We just interviewed James Fishback, the America first candidate running for governor of Florida,

who has been taking the Internet by storm despite or perhaps because of being really racist.

[Unknown Guest 1]

You've been repeatedly calling and referring to

[Robin Arsan]

Byron Donalds as DEI Donalds on social

[Unknown Guest 2]

media, referring to Congressman Byron Donalds as a, quote, slave to his donors.

[Will Sommer]

You know, he has a really thin resume. He, you know, is someone who I think typically couldn't be elected for dog catcher. But he's, he's kind of catching on. He's gaining in the polls. And while he still probably won't win, I think he's offering us a face of sort of one potential future for the Republican Party.

The rage bait candidate on Today explained from Vox.

[Robin Arsan]

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[Will Sommer]

you get your podcasts. This is TODAY explained. When we sat down with Will Sommer, we asked him where this Florida man, James Fishback, came from.

Just about nowhere. I mean he came, he was in finance. He was apparently, according to court documents, a pretty low level employee at a hedge fund. And then he sort of afterwards styled himself as sort of this like real hedge fund expert. They claim he made up his title.

When did you first consider yourself to be the head of Macro?

[James Fishback]

This isn't some beef about head of Macro? No, everybody wants to talk about head of Macro.

[Will Sommer]

This and that kind of became sort of a meme in the finance community because it was just so ridiculous. But through that he managed to get on Fox Business a lot and sort of leverage that into appearing like he's this sort of expert financier type guy. So I'm going to bring in Azoria CEO James Fishback.

[Unknown Guest 2]

And Azoria's CEO is James Fishback and he joins me now. James.

[Will Sommer]

And to further complicate the shape shifting identity of this white supremacist candidate, he's not super white, right.

I mean this is kind of one of the fascinating things about him. I mean he's extremely racist to Byron Donalds, the congressman who's been endorsed by Trump, who's the front runner in the Florida governor's race.

[James Fishback]

Congressman Donalds, license and registration please.

[Will Sommer]

Easy there, easy there.

[James Fishback]

Congressman Donalds, hands where I can see them. Enough. Get out of the car. Hands behind your back. You are under arrest for betraying America to Israel.

[Will Sommer]

At the same time, his mother is Colombian and so he's half Colombian. But you know, this is also kind of something we're seeing more of I think is this kind of, this kind of racial extremism in Florida among Hispanic people. There was recently a leak of young Republicans who are Hispanic in Miami being extremely racist. And he's really kind of become the face of the, or one of the faces of the sort of the white nationalist, the so called groiper movement that surrounds the podcaster Nick Fuentes and yeah,

remind people who don't pay attention to Nick Fuentes and the Gripers what they're all about. Sure.

So Nick Fuentes is a, is a young man in his late 20s who marched in Charlottesville, real kind of avowed racist.

That's part of what's wrong with black people in America is that chip on

their shoulder, no humility and anti Semite Jews be Jewing who has styled himself particularly after the murder of Charlie Kirk that created sort of a vacuum in Nick Puente's, has stepped into it as sort of the, the, the racist face of, of, of young Republicanism.

And, and what does like you know, the Venn diagram overlap look like between Nick Fuentes and the racist Gripers and this long shot candidate for Florida governor James Fishback?

I would say that Venn diagram is just about a circle. I mean James Fishback has, has really welcomed the Gruber's support.

[James Fishback]

I probably shouldn't say this, but I think Nick's following is actually really impressive. There's a lot of young men who are patriotic.

[Will Sommer]

Nick Fuentes has been very complimentary towards him.

[Unknown Guest 1]

We have Our groiper Intelligence agency hat as seen on James Fishback's head.

[Will Sommer]

And he's excellent.

Fishback will pose for pictures with people in Nick Fuente's merchandise with, you know, guys wearing Nick Fuente sweaters with a he. He's very close with this right wing media figure who said she's gonna have some more kids and make some more young groipers. So, you know, they're very closely aligned. And I think Fishback is interesting because he's probably the closest we've come to a sort of Nick Fuentes groiper type political candidate. And his relative success I think suggests that that kind of candidate has some Runway among Gen Z Republicans.

Nick Fuentes is interesting to talk about this moment because he's a white supremacist, like borderline Nazi, maybe Nazi, full on Nazi, it's unclear. But he also says he wants to vote for Democrats in the next. My vote for the Democrats is a middle finger to the gop. I don't care. How does that affect someone like Fishback? Where does he sit in the ideological spectrum, left and right?

I mean, I think Fishback represents this kind of growing discontent among young Republicans with the Trump administration, particularly over support for Israel, the war with Iran. But more broadly this sense of, you know, that Trump isn't doing anything about affordability to help young people own homes, start families. It's sort of this kind of populist, I mean, to be frank, kind of quasi fascist. This kind of government stepping in to control families, to control businesses. You know, one of his proposals is that in a marriage if someone cheats, they should lose all of their, all of the marital assets.

[James Fishback]

If you enter the covenant of marriage and then you cheat, you're giving up everything. You don't have any rights.

[Will Sommer]

Which you know, to me I think would just sort of incentivize, like spousal murder or something, you know, if you're going to be pop a pauper if you get divorced. But he has these ideas that people go, oh yeah, that's true. Even though, I mean it's crazy. Just to underline one more. I mean he talks about, you know, housing affordability in Florida, but a lot of his ideas are either onerous taxes on anyone who moves to Florida or somehow banning people from moving to Florida.

[James Fishback]

I will pass The Momdani tax, $50,000 property transaction tax for any out of state individual who wants to buy real estate, single family real estate here in Florida.

[Will Sommer]

He's really kind of heavy handed government vision that he's proposing.

And I saw the New York Times opinion writer Michelle Goldberg. She went and hung out at Fishback events in Florida. And she met a registered Democrat mom Donny fan, who said she was thinking of changing her registration to vote for Fishback in the primary. Who is he speaking to? How big is his tent? Because if you look at images from his events, it looks like a lot of young white men, but maybe not exclusively.

Yeah, I mean, I think Fischbach is benefiting from a couple things. I mean, one is on one hand, I think you do have people who are legitimately sort of alienated from normal politics. And because he's this unusual kind of candidate, they're latching onto him. On the other hand, I think he's also benefiting from this kind of like poisoned information ecosystem. I mean, someone else in the Michelle Goldberg piece says they got into Fishback because they saw Kanye west post a graphic about Jews controlling the media and so they entered him through that vector. So I think there's this just kind of this crazy online ecosystem that really also favors seeking attention. And Fishback certainly does that. He has these kind of mobs that go to waffle houses for events. He'll say these kind of eye catching ideas like public executions for anyone who associated with Jeffrey Epstein or taxing only fans creators at 50% of their income.

[James Fishback]

That is how you disincentivize and deter this degenerate behavior. And we're going to use the money to increase public school teacher pay.

[Will Sommer]

And this then creates kind of a feud with some only fans stars.

[Stephanie Slade]

Never in my whole life did I think that I would wake up and see a Florida politician trying to start

[Unknown Guest 1]

beef with me for clout.

[Will Sommer]

And so he's been able to get attention in a lot of different ways despite really running sort of a shoestring campaign.

And you said earlier he doesn't really have a shot, but he's getting enough attention to be worth talking about because he appears to have some influence here. What does he parlay that into if not running Florida?

Well, look, I mean, these days, in many ways being a right wing media figure is better than being a politician. Maybe not governor, but we've seen someone like Deputy FBI Director Dan Bongino quit to go back to podcasting.

Man, it is good to see you guys. It's been a crazy year. I really, really miss you.

I mean, if you want influence, I think in a lot of ways it's better to be someone like Candace Owens or Megyn Kelly with a huge YouTube platform than just a sort of random congressman or something. So I think in some ways James Fishback is sort of trying to play on that. And he's young, you know, he could run for office in the future. So I think that there is this sense that he, despite being, I mean, frankly, like just a big time Charlotte end in many ways he's sort of harnessing this discontent among young people.

And do the young people think he's genuine? Because just hearing you talk about his experience or lack thereof, it seems like he's just someone who's sort of taken advantage of whatever zeitgeist, you know, is in front of him to, I don't know, just increase his own popularity, his own presence.

Yeah, I mean, I think sort of the savvier Fishback fans, I mean some people you'll meet, they're just, you know, weeping like they're, you know, meeting a huge celebrity. They just love Fishback. On the other hand, I think a lot of these kind of groiper type figures are very cynical about politics in general. I mean, they would love to see a sort of fascist America, but they see Fishback as a useful vehicle. I mean, he's a guy who has like a certain amount of charisma that appeals to some people and they see him as someone who's, you know, putting out these, you know, able to capture some energy and also show this discont within the Republican Party. Not that, you know, we, we aren't going to be happy just to vote for whoever Donald Trump endorses in this primary.

You can read will [e-mail] it's a substack enemy of the show. Tucker Carlson has said that pretty soon all winning Republicans will be talking like James Fishback. We're gonna ask someone who spends a lot of time thinking about the right if that should have us shaking in our shorts when Today Explained returns.

[Unknown Guest 1]

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[Will Sommer]

Farther, farther.

Keep going.

Stephanie Slade covers conservatives for Reason magazine. We invited her on Today explained to figure out how we should be thinking about a figure like James Fishback. Stephanie seemed to think that if you have a good enough grasp of the history here, you wouldn't be so spooked by him. So we asked her to hit us with some history. We started with what the founders of modern conservatism would make of James Fishback.

[Stephanie Slade]

It's always hard to try to bring these figures into our time and place. But I think that if you are talking about people, the leading lights of mid century, mid 20th century conservatism, like William F. Buckley Jr. The founder of National Review, see the

[Unknown Guest 2]

trouble with is that you get very resentful whenever anybody reminds you of what you say. If I said what you said, I'd feel the same way.

[Stephanie Slade]

Russell Kirk, you know, the conservative writer.

[Unknown Guest 2]

What the public hopes for, however dimly, is restoration.

[Will Sommer]

If conservatives can deal with these great

[Unknown Guest 2]

problems ably and honestly, posterity will bless them.

[Stephanie Slade]

People like this, they believed very deeply in the importance of cultivating a responsible conservatism.

[Unknown Guest 2]

Why are the races unreconciled? Why does poverty persevere? Why are our governors indifferent to us? Why are the young disenchanted? Why do the birds sing so unhappily? It is easy to be carried away and yet always there is a strain of seriousness, something in the system that warns us, warns us that America had better strike out on a different course rather than face another four years of asphyxiation by liberal remises.

[Stephanie Slade]

They thought that conservatism was a disposition, it was a quality of being. It had a lot to do with how we preserve a civilization. And so there's many things about figures on the right today, on the fringes of the right today, like a James Fishback, who I think are certainly not, I would say, in keeping with that tradition.

[Will Sommer]

Yeah, civility does not seem to be huge on James Fishback's platform agenda. When we talk about modern conservativism, what are we talking about? When did it start?

[Stephanie Slade]

I would define the conservative movement in America as we know it as being a post World War II phenomenon. In the years after World War II ended, this sort of conservative movement in America came into being in a self conscious way.

[Unknown Historical Voice]

Radical conservatives in this country have an interesting time of it for when they are not being suppressed or mutilated by the liberals, they are being ignored or humiliated by the great many of those of the well fed, right, whose ignorance and amorality have never been exaggerated for the same reason that one cannot exaggerate. Infinity. National Review, November 1955.

[Stephanie Slade]

And the scholars and writers, and again, people associated with National Review magazine being sort of the center of this, all recognized that they were sort of building a movement from scratch.

[Unknown Historical Voice]

Ideas have to go into exchange to become or remain operative. And the medium of such exchange is the printed word. A vigorous and incorruptible journal of conservative opinion is, dare we say it, as necessary to better living as chemistry.

[Stephanie Slade]

They didn't think the ideas were new. They thought, if anything, they thought that they were just trying to preserve the principles and institutions of the American founding. So that these were things that, you know, had been around for centuries, but. But they believed that the movement itself was sort of being constructed from the ground up. And. And so that was happening again in the late 1940s, through the founding of National Review in 1955, through the founding of Young Americans for Freedom in 1960, and the Goldwater campaign.

[Unknown Guest 2]

I say it is time to put conscience back in government and by good example, put it back in all walks of American life.

[Will Sommer]

In your heart, you know, he's right.

[Unknown Guest 2]

Vote for Barry Goldwater.

[Stephanie Slade]

And up, up into the 70s, 80s and 90s, and the launching and founding of all kinds of the institutions that we think of as being the institutions of mainstream establishment conservatism today, like the Heritage foundation or the Philadelphia Society, the acu, which is the organization that puts on cpac, the Big Conservative Conference every year. All these groups sort of came into being during this period between the late 40s into the 90s, let's say.

[Will Sommer]

And I think just bringing this back to the moment we're in right now, where you see a fringe figure, or at least for the moment, a fringe figure like James Fishback, it feels new and kind of scary. Ooh, the guy seems like a Nazi sympathizer. But it's important to note here that throughout this conservative era that you're telling us about, there were also fringe figures.

[Stephanie Slade]

Always. Oh, for sure. It's not like racism, anti Semitism, misogyny are things that were invented by young men in the 21st century. There were figures like George Wallace, who was actually a New Deal Democrat. He was not a Republican, but he was a figure who was sort of trying to drag our politics in that direction during the 60s and 70s.

[Unknown Guest 2]

And that we're going to stand up for the people of Alabama and follow a way of life, and we're not going to let the NAACP and the Moderates and all that crap, take over and mix the school system in this state.

[Stephanie Slade]

He was basically an Alabama segregationist. You know, he wanted to maintain segregation. The Republican Party was forced to view him as a competitor for their base voters. In the 90s we had the rise of the paleo conservatives, the people like Pat Buchanan.

[Unknown Guest 2]

There is a religious war going on in this country. It is a cultural war as critical to the kind of nation we shall be as the Cold war itself. For this war is for the soul of America.

[Stephanie Slade]

Who the commitments were not all necessarily what we would call far right. Both Buchanan and certainly Wallace were further to the left on economics than the mainstream conservatives, but very, very anti immigration, dabbling or flirting with anti Semitism, that sort of thing. So I mean, again, it's hard to place them sometimes on a left right spectrum, but a lot of the ideas that we are seeing that have sort of re emerged in recent years in conjunction with the rise of the maga, you know, Trumpism phenomenon have been calling back to things like those paleo conservatives of the 1990s. Now what is a little different now? And it's kind of hard to even capture this in words, but right, a trollish quality to a lot of these far right figures. Now they, they've, they're essentially online influencers before they are anything else. And that's how they're making their money, is by having a following on their, you know, rumble or whatever.

[James Fishback]

The left wing and the right wing are both attached to the same corrupt uniparty bird. What I'm asking voters to do is to give me a 12 gauge shotgun to shoot that freaking bird out of the sky and take our country back.

[Stephanie Slade]

Whether or not to take them seriously, is this really hard question, do they mean what they say? I get this question all the time. If Nick Fuentes or somebody goes out there and says the only purpose of a woman is to. I don't know what language is acceptable on this podcast, but go for it,

[Will Sommer]

we'll fix it in post.

[Stephanie Slade]

Fuentes famously not that long ago said that women only have three purposes. It can be mothered whores or nuns. And you know, when he says something like that, does he mean it or is he just trying to get a rise out of people to get more attention, to get more clicks, to make more money? It's hard to say. And so a lot of, a lot of what's going on here is there's this new sort of post, ironic, intentionally transgressive trollishness that's going on. This is definitely all the rage in terms of the people who are not running for office, the Tucker Carlson's, the Nick Fuentes's, but it's bleeding into some of these far right candidates. And Fishback is a perfect example of this, where he's clearly come up in that culture and so it's hard to know. Whereas Buchanan was very earnest. I mean, he believed what he was saying. He may say things that were offensive, but he said it because he believed it and he was trying to convince you of it. Whereas these guys, you don't really know what they believe and you don't know whether they're actually trying to convince you of something or if they're just trying to make you mad because they think it's funny and they like the attention.

[Will Sommer]

It sounds like you're saying figures like Pat Buchanan, who maybe represented a farther right segment of the party, of the movement, they did make a difference. Are they comparable to a James Fishback who might be making a difference right now, or even someone like a David Duke who was straight up KKK, but certainly had some following in far right American politics?

[Stephanie Slade]

Yeah, well, it's much like Fischbach is not currently leading in the polls. Somebody like a Buchanan was never somebody who was really threatening to win the Republican nomination. He ran against George H.W. bush, for example, in 1992. He was challenging him from the right on some issues, from the left on some issues, and he did well. I mean, he was challenging and incumbent, a sitting Republican president. He did pretty well. It was surprising to a lot of people. He had a groundswell of support, but it was always a minority of support. And again, fortunately, I think the evidence right now suggests that it is a minority of support that are kind of behind these fringe figures like Fishback today. But you just never know whether what starts as a groundswell will become the kind of overpowering tidal wave of support that we saw, for example, in 2016 with Donald Trump, that nobody in respectable politics saw that coming. And yet it just wiped out the establishment players because there was this groundswell that turned into a tidal wave. And that can happen. You don't necessarily know when it's coming. So I know, don't. I don't see necessarily Fishback as being the next Donald Trump. I think he's probably more likely to be the next Buchanan, who makes a run and makes a splash and gets some attention, but doesn't actually end up winning any elections. That seems more likely to me. But you never know.

[Will Sommer]

I think the big question, of course, that everyone's starting to wonder about cuz it's been so long is like what comes after Trump? And then we have this James Fishback type who feels like maybe not the answer, but an answer is Fishback telling us what the future establishment could look like?

[Stephanie Slade]

It's a possible direction, I suppose. I mean he certainly seems to be resonating again with very online young men. And you know, don't discount that because the very online young men of today are potentially the voting base of tomorrow. These are the types of people who are already in many cases we're finding populating Republican political positions. Like for example, I live in Washington D.C. you go to Capitol Hill, you talk to the 22 and 23 year olds who work for Republican members of Congress. These are those young men in many cases and they are imbibing those ideas and they are responding positively to the kinds of things that Fishback is saying and the way he's saying them. However, I still think for a long time to come you're gonna find that that is not resonating with even the median Republican primary voter. I think people are for the most part turned off by this. Remember, the electorate contains a lot of women, a lot of middle aged women in addition to very online young men. So I would like to think that although it's possible, it is possible that this is the future of Republican politics, that this is gonna be a thing that has to sort of a fever that has to burn itself out and they're gonna have to these ideas and these characters are gonna have to lose repeatedly at the polls in order for people to realize, you know, this winning political recipe.

[Will Sommer]

You can read stephanie [e-mail] the very reasonable miles Bryan produced our show today with Kelly Wesinger, also reasonable Jolie Myers edited Andrea Lopez Crusado was on the fact check. David Tadashore and Patrick Boyd were on the mix. My name's Sean ramisvirm and the program is today explained.