Claire White (2:56)

Shazam.

Sean Ramasubramaniam (2:56)

Google and chatgpt failing.

Ryan Francis Bradley (2:59)

I was like what is, what is this song? And then I just started calling people and asking them about what this was. And then I found this whole world of sync music.

Sean Ramasubramaniam (3:10)

Did you ever find out what the song was?

Ryan Francis Bradley (3:12)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a song called Love's of War. Love's a war and you're the game.

Sean Ramasubramaniam (3:21)

Okay. You hear the song Love is a war while watching Love island with your wife. You end up going on this whole journey and discover a whole world of music called sync. Tell us about sync.

Ryan Francis Bradley (3:32)

I like to say sync is a genre described by its function. So it kind of contains all genres, all sounds in music, but its function, right, is to always be paired to video so it can sound wildly different. And I mean, the best way to think about sync isn't just in the song. The kind of pop songs you hear in reality tv. My diamond earring came up in the ocean and it's gone and there's people that are dying. Tell Amanda to call me. I'll give her all the dirt on Set me. The music you hear behind tutorials on YouTube or TikTok, These very kind of cliche sounds. And there's trends, right? Like I would say in the sort of late 2000 and tens, a big sound in this sort of background to video sync was like ukulele, sort of indie pop sound. And now it's become a lot more kind of electronic. There's this great playlist a friend, an editor friend of mine sent. He called like music for corporate and technology. That's just like kind of electronica, kind of soft electronica to back behind like corporate videos, You know, sync often follows trends in the mainstream music. Like a lot of pop now is a bit more electronic than it is ukulele.

Sean Ramasubramaniam (5:15)

So thank God we use music in the background of our interviews and in our billboards at the top of the show. And most often it's made by an alien known as the mysterious Brakemaster cylinder.

Vogt Williams (5:31)

Hi, it's me.

Sean Ramasubramaniam (5:34)

Is that sync music?

Ryan Francis Bradley (5:36)

I would say so. I mean if he's making it to be paired to audio, which, I mean, that's the beginning of sync, right? The roots of sync have like this purpose built music for radio. For a long time it was called library music and still is sometimes called library music or production music. A lot of the library music that was made in the 60s and 70s and a little bit in the 80s when there were a lot more kind of musicians on staff, studio musicians. And when they weren't sitting around making a record for, for artists, they would, they would make library music. As Caesar sees it. And so there's really amazing. This is kind of krait diggers gold mines of all of this music that was made by really serious, amazing musicians making music to sit in the library and potentially get picked up and used in a TV show or commercial. You know, nowadays that whole sort of ecosystem where you would have studio on staff, studio musicians is pretty rare.

Sean Ramasubramaniam (6:54)

Someone who just hangs out at a studio and is like a hand for whatever anyone needs on a given day.

Ryan Francis Bradley (7:01)

Yeah. And it's. And that's like a 9 to 5 job. I mean the vast majority of musicians are independent contractors. And so early on in my reporting, I was talking to a musician who. His 9 to 5, he's an inventing contractor and his 9 to 5 is making sync music. And he described it to me. I was like, I'm so interested in exploring this kind of corner of the music industry. And he's like, let me stop you there, man. This is, this is the music industry for a lot of us. This is how we make, make it work.

Sean Ramasubramaniam (7:30)

Does that mean that in some ways, considering how much video we consume right now, that we're sort of in the era of, I don't know, peak sync?

Ryan Francis Bradley (7:41)

I would say so. I mean, certainly in terms of the number of tracks available and the number of tracks that are being made, I think there's a whole lot of young people trying to break in to sync and make a living that way. There are also very serious record producers who describe to me sync as their 401k. It's like their retirement plan because they can steadily make sync music and then still be waiting for that once or twice a year, working on a big record and having a big payday.

Sean Ramasubramaniam (8:18)

And with the like omnipresence of sync music in our current day, is it affecting what pop music sounds like?

Ryan Francis Bradley (8:28)

So I. I sort of think so. What was really interesting to me was that because we live in this age where we're drowning in video and a lot of people encounter new songs through video platforms, video forward platforms. A lot of the tricks of sync have influenced how pop music is made in a way. I mean, there's this interesting kind of gray area between what is a sync track and what is a pure pop song and what is working for pop often now has a lot of. Is kind of borrowing a lot of the moves from sync, where you have these instrumental breaks between lyrics and you have this like orchestral build. One of the most successful sync tracks last year, which is just kind of based off of how often it was used to back videos on Tik Tok and also in commercials. Zara Larson, by a lot of metrics, the kind of the biggest sync track of 2025. And I think that she very cannily is putting out music that works really well with video. And you know, whether or not she's. I think it's fair to say that she set out to make a really successful pop song and did. And part of its success, of a large part of its success, I would say is that it works really well with video, that it builds orchestrally, that it has these nice instrumental breaks to lyrics and is picking up a lot of the tricks that sync music producers have long used, like having a longer instrumental intro and a longer instrumental outro and making sure that it builds and it has these big hits and these like breaks. Right?

Vogt Williams (10:32)

There's like.

Ryan Francis Bradley (10:33)

There's a very interesting thing I would say in pop now where big pop songs really need a like 15 to 30 second moment that like really works on video and that is what. Where it gets used on TikTok and that is how it becomes a hit.

Sean Ramasubramaniam (10:51)

Oh, it's starting to sound sad, Ryan.

Ryan Francis Bradley (10:54)

You know,

Sean Ramasubramaniam (10:56)

like, like this is really good for musicians because it helps them pay the bills. But is it flattening music?

Ryan Francis Bradley (11:04)

Man, I love two minds about this. I think you can get like depressed about how music, where music is today and how it's starting to sound the same and how you. I feel on the other hand, I'm kind of like music has always reflected where culture is and. And music has always tried to. Musicians have always tried to craft songs that are going to be wildly popular and get heard. And if this is the way to do it, then so be it. I will say after reporting this, look, I'm a middle aged music snob and a lot of this, a lot of this stuff, I was a little snooty about going into the reporting and then, you know, no surprise, you get into it and you talk to the people behind these tracks and you see that they're coming at it with real intent and real interest and, you know, real. The real like human thing that makes music interesting to other humans. And it became a lot more interesting to me and it made me understand pop music that I was a little dismissive of a little bit better and appreciate it a little bit more.

Sean Ramasubramaniam (12:13)

Oh my gosh, we didn't do the thing. The elephant in the room.

Ryan Francis Bradley (12:17)

There is a major elephant in the room. A thing you cannot pay.

Sean Ramasubramaniam (12:20)

But it's like, no, I'm here and I'm here to stay and I'm here to f your s up. And that elephant, of course, is artificial intelligence.

Ryan Francis Bradley (12:29)

Of course of course,

Sean Ramasubramaniam (12:36)

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Claire White (15:02)

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Sean Ramasubramaniam (15:29)

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Claire White (15:40)

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Sean Ramasubramaniam (16:12)

VO Williams is a certified sync musician. We asked him if that was, like, a thing he dreamt of when he was growing up.

Vogt Williams (16:20)

No, no. Actually, it was completely by accident. You know, my career was on that very, like, traditional trajectory, making music, trying to make a hit song get on the radio, blow up like that, you know, and, you know, I said yes to a music session one day, and that session ended up being the first song that I ever had placed on television.

Sean Ramasubramaniam (16:43)

What was it called? And where did it get placed?

Vogt Williams (16:45)

Yeah, so the song is actually called Light Em Up. It's been placed in over 700 to 800 different things. Oh, yeah. So, yeah. So the way that I even. The way that I discovered that I was even doing this, because in the beginning, I didn't even know I was making sync music. I was just making this hybrid form of hip hop, which we call epic hip hop today. Okay? With us, in. With us being the pioneers of that. Of that actual genre. But I had no idea that it would be considered kind of like the cornerstone of the way hip hop sounds in sync. My music is meant to drive stadiums, to resonate across arenas and baseball fields. It's meant to, like, you know, you need, like, your biggest star of the year jumping out of a helicopter and it explodes. And then my song carries the weight.

Vogt Williams (performing vocals) (17:39)

I'm coming for payback.

Sean Ramasubramaniam (17:46)

Give us some specifics. Where have people potentially heard your music, this song, or others?

Vogt Williams (17:51)

If you watch the 2024 Olympics, the Italian women's gymnastics team did their bronze medal winning routine to my song greatness.

Vogt Williams (performing vocals) (18:05)

Greatness.

Vogt Williams (18:10)

If you went to the super bowl, you may have heard my song Andelay. So when they did the big presentation for the second half of the super bowl, my song andale was, you know, ringing out in the stadium, and all of the media was cut to that song Andale. If you went to the super bowl this past year,

Vogt Williams (performing vocals) (18:25)

Tick tock, tick tock, gotta go now they ain't got enough gold in this old town Gotta loosen up the hold on my soul now.

Sean Ramasubramaniam (18:34)

So Bad Bunny kind of opened up for you at the Super Bowl?

Vogt Williams (18:38)

Yeah, I don't know if Bad Bunny stuck around after performing to hear. Andre, if you've been to a Lakers game in the past couple years, have you been to a Tampa Bay Lightning game? Milwaukee Bucks. I had the season anthem for their championship winning year and also performed live in the finals when they won the championship. I literally could go on and on, man. I mean, the music is everywhere.

Sean Ramasubramaniam (19:01)

When one of your songs gets placed 700, 800 times, how much money do you make?

Ryan Francis Bradley (19:09)

Oh, way.

Vogt Williams (19:14)

I think right now I have well over 3,000 individual syncs, right? So that's the license. That's like, okay, we're gonna use your song. You know, name a TV show, right? We're gonna use your song in your favorite TV show, Heated Rivalry. Okay, we're gonna use your song in Heated Rivalry. Right? I'm coming to the cottage. That counts as one. That doesn't mean that it's only been seen one time, Right? It could air until infinity. So each time that it actually shows or each time that it airs, I get paid on the back end through what's called a performance rights organization. And that's your. That's your. Your. Your check in the mail, right? It's. It's a little less predictable in terms of the rates. You know, you're happy to get it. And that's your royalty check that you get every quarter. Also, on the front end, in order for them to use our music that is valued at a sync fee rate, those can vary anywhere between, you know, 10,000 to 500,000, depending on the type of usage and how they want to move forward with that.

Sean Ramasubramaniam (20:14)

Okay, so you do all right?

Vogt Williams (20:16)

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm blessed for sure. Yeah. Praise God.

Vogt Williams (performing vocals) (20:19)

Light them up, light them up Light them up Light em up, light em

Sean Ramasubramaniam (20:22)

up we have established that this was not what you set out to do. However, it's where you ended up, and it's been real good to you. But we've talked on this show about how AI is making it so much easier for people to create their own music with a simple prompt. Music creation. Songwriting, in a way, has been cheapened.

Vogt Williams (20:46)

You're right. We're in a revolutionary moment. This is the steam engine. This is the wheel. This is fire. This is the Internet, right? And I would say, for me, the feeling is no fear. I absolutely have zero fear about AI and zero. I have zero fear.

Sean Ramasubramaniam (21:06)

That blows my mind, though. Cause if I go to Suno and I say, suno, give me an epic rap song, Dreams in my pocket.

Vogt Williams (performing vocals) (21:12)

They spoke, kid, you were good for the smoke.

Sean Ramasubramaniam (21:14)

I go to some library and I look up Vog Williams epic rap song.

Vogt Williams (performing vocals) (21:18)

We go further, we go harder. Push past the limit.

Sean Ramasubramaniam (21:23)

You know the difference. Maybe I know the difference. But like 99% of humanity probably doesn't know the difference because as you've laid out here, this is going on some bumper at the super bowl or in the background of some commercial or you know, behind some TV show where something else is happening and you don't feel any fear that this might put you out of work one day.

Vogt Williams (21:48)

No, sir. The reason why I don't fear it is because. And yes, I agree, most likely technology will advance to a. A level where the AI music is so natural sounding. A music bed, something that is like, you know, it doesn't really have any value. They just need some music right there. It's going to be tough that that part of the industry is going to get challenged and it's going to be about stepping it up. There's no more artists that we made a lot of money, sometimes 10%, 15% of our catalog was us just dialing it in to fulfill some, some corporate, like emotionless, like music bed part or bumper part, that part is gonna get challenged. So what's gonna have to happen is musicians are going to have to step up and get even better, get even more creative, become even more amazing. It's an incredible opportunity for the tide to rise and for us to have to get up and work out. Now we gotta work out. We can't lay around anymore. And it's incredible. It's not only, not only is it a good thing for. Not only is it a good thing for us as individual artists because now we have to try and we have to think and we have to get creative again, right? But it's a great thing for music and music listeners because now you're gonna have this renaissance of artists who are just trying to do something so fresh that a data set, a data set doesn't have it yet. If you have the most advanced technology, the most advanced music AI come out tomorrow, that 100% of that music will always be behind me. Because that music is built on a data set and data is the past. By no means am I an advocate for AI. I am not an advocate for AI. I just don't fear it when I'm an advocate for, for is human beings and human creation, human ingenuity, human resilience, this is what I'm an advocate for. We must go on. Despite what was set before us, we must push forward and go on. Now it's about what are we going to do, what are we going to change? What are our value sets? How do we redefine not just how we beat the robot in terms of just the way that it sounds? What are other things that we can push forward as our value to offer the world, other human beings, a new. A new value for us as musicians? There's so many different things that a person, that a human being can do who can physically walk the earth and speak to you as a. From human being to human being that the AI cannot do.

Sean Ramasubramaniam (24:39)

Give us a Vogt Williams song to go out on. We gotta go out on a Vogt Williams track.

Vogt Williams (performing vocals) (24:42)

Wow.

Vogt Williams (24:43)

Oh, my goodness. No pressure, bro. Let's go. Greatness.

Sean Ramasubramaniam (24:47)

We're going out on Greatness. Vogt Williams. Thank you so much, my man.

Vogt Williams (24:50)

Thank you so much, man.

Vogt Williams (performing vocals) (24:51)

Let's go. I got a vision I see in my head A melody buried deep into my soul they call us crazy we cutting the edge Unlocking the future and letting it go this is a calling that's higher the time we decided our stories are gonna be be told this is what legends are born we paving the road A future that favors the fold Break the rules, break the laws this is the moment we change it all Break the rules, break the laws this is the moment we change it all yeah.

Sean Ramasubramaniam (25:18)

Greatness, Bo Williams. Optimism personified. Earlier in the show you heard from Ryan Francis Bradley. He wrote it's the music you hear all day without ever noticing for the New York Times Magazine. Shout outs to family for sharing that one with us. Shout outs to Ariana Aspuru for making today's show. Aminah Al Saadi for editing, Gabriel Dunatah for accuracy. David Tadashore and congratulations maybe Patrick Boyd for mixing more team. Peter Balin on Rosen, Hadi Mwogdi Miles Bryan, Danielle Hewitt, Kelly Wessinger, Dustin de Soto, Abishai Artsy Jolie Myers, Miranda Kennedy, Noel King. And I'm Sean Ramasbur. And tomorrow in the feedback comes America. Actually, Asted's going to talk about how immigration policy got to be so impossible to change in these United States. Today Explained is distributed by wnyc. The show is a part of the Vox Media podcast network. You can find more shows from the network@podcast.voxmedia.com you can listen ad free by signing up@vox.com members. Thanks.

Vogt Williams (26:23)

If you do legendary in the making,

Vogt Williams (performing vocals) (26:25)

reach out and we take it not to emerge we on the verge and it feels like greatness this is the truth into the light taking our dreams and we bring them to life this is the truth into the light taking our dreams and we bring them to life yeah, greatness yeah, it feels like greatness Greatness yeah, it feels like greatness Legendary Animation.

Sean Ramasubramaniam (27:12)

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