The socialists are coming!

Summary

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Today, Explained | "The Socialists Are Coming!"

Date: July 2, 2026
Host: Noel King
Guest: Will Staken (Politico), Megan Romer (Co-chair, Democratic Socialists of America)

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the surging influence and victories of the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) in the 2026 primary election season. With prominent wins in New York City, Colorado, and Washington, D.C., the DSA has energized debates within the Democratic Party and stirred both hopeful enthusiasm and sharp criticism. The show investigates what the DSA wants, their platform, their impact on party dynamics, controversy around their candidates, struggles with anti-Semitism allegations, and their growing ambitions for national politics—including a possible presidential run in 2028.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The DSA’s Recent Political Surge

• String of Electoral Victories (02:07–03:43)
  • Notable wins include Mela Kiros ousting a 30-year incumbent in Denver, major gains in New York, and a surprise mayoral primary win in Washington, D.C.
  • The movement demonstrates growing strength outside traditional strongholds and a “durable” base:

    “We have declared that this movement is durable. No longer will we accept the politics that throws scraps at us.” — DSA candidate, quoted by Megan Romer (03:04)

• Emerging National Influence
  • Discussion of Kamala Harris reaching out to Zohran Mamdani, AOC endorsing Michigan’s Abdullah Sayed.
  • DSA’s energized base includes younger and more diverse voters.

2. What Does the DSA Want?

Key Platform Points (03:43–05:35)

• Economic Justice:
  • Medicare for All, strong unions and labor rights, affordable housing, and a broader affordability/anti-cost-of-living agenda.
  • Central concern: Putting the working class first.

    “No longer will we accept anything less than respect and a seat at the table that our labor built.” — DSA candidate, quoted by Megan Romer (04:53)

• Foreign Policy:
  • Strong pro-Palestinian stance; vehement opposition to U.S. military aid to Israel.

    “We will use our money to improve lives here instead of destroy them abroad.” — DSA candidate, quoted by Megan Romer (04:13)

• Anti-Establishment Identity:
  • Wearing their outsider status as a badge of honor, using bold rhetoric to separate themselves from “establishment Democrats.”
• Ambitious Structural Demands (06:36–06:40)
  • Abolishing the Electoral College, replacing the two-party system with multi-party democracy.

3. Ideological Commitment and Strategic Approach

• A Movement, Not Just a Moment (05:50–07:43)
  • DSA is highly ideological and focused on moving the Overton window.
• “Sewer Socialism” vs. Idealism
  • The phrase signals a blend of practical reforms and utopian ambitions.
  • Despite mainstream Democratic skepticism, DSA’s anti-establishment brand is gaining traction, particularly among primary voters.

4. Party Polarization and Pushback

Polarizing Effect (07:43–09:55)

• DSA is comfortable causing friction within the Democratic Party, directly challenging figures like Kamala Harris and pushing for a leftward shift.
  • Notable moment:

    “I think right now they want to throw a Molotov cocktail into the party and just say, ‘we’re blowing this up.’” — Will Staken (09:01)

• Mainstream Democrats, including James Carville, openly express discomfort with openly socialist candidates.
• Upcoming Michigan Senate race seen as a bellwether for insurgent prospects.

5. Plans for 2028 and the Search for a Presidential Candidate

• Strategic Planning for White House Run (10:07–12:52)
  • DSA actively surveying members nationwide to identify a candidate for the 2028 presidential primary.
  • Zohran Mamdani, a rising star, is constitutionally barred from running (not a natural-born citizen):

    “Let’s just cause a constitutional crisis and just see what happens.” — DSA insider, quoted by Will Staken (12:45)

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DSA Co-chair Megan Romer Interview

1. Why Is the DSA Resonating Now?

Economic Anxiety and Systemic Frustration (16:58–17:42)

• Voters’ daily struggles with stagnating wages, rising inflation, and loss of the social safety net drive demand for bold alternatives.
• The DSA’s appeal lies in offering transformative, not incremental, solutions.

2. Accusations of Extremism—Policing, Borders, and Feasibility

Handling Perceptions of Being “Too Extreme” (18:03–19:52)

• DSA’s long-term vision includes rethinking policing and the criminal justice system (“abolishing the carceral state”), but Romer clarifies this is about reducing crime by eliminating poverty’s root causes, not eliminating all law enforcement overnight.
• Acknowledges challenge in messaging:

  “People say, so you’re just gonna fire all the police? Like, well, no…” — Megan Romer (18:03)

3. Controversies Around Candidate Vetting and “Bad Tweets”

Reconciling Imperfect Allies (20:20–22:15)

• Recent primary winner Darieliza Avila Chevalier faced backlash for past inflammatory tweets (e.g., about the American flag and interracial relationships).
  • Romer admits:

    “We are dealing with imperfect, messy people, for sure… That is going to be the reality of running candidates who did not come into adult life thinking they were ever going to be a candidate.” — Megan Romer (21:31)

• Positions DSA as rooted in real-world, not “lab-created” ideal candidates.

4. The Israel Debate and Anti-Semitism Allegations

Position on Israel and Community Tensions (22:15–24:24)

• DSA is unapologetically critical of Israel, calling current actions “genocide” and “apartheid.”
• Romer acknowledges intense emotions but insists their critique targets the state, not Jewish people; opposes anti-Semitism:

  “It’s a genocidal apartheid state and I’m not apologizing for that.” — Megan Romer (24:07)

5. The AOC Endorsement Saga

Conditional Political Support (24:24–25:56)

• DSA’s complicated relationship: rescinded and then conditionally restored endorsement of AOC over stances on military funding for Israel.
  • “If Rashida Tlaib votes for it. Who is one of the most, you know, fearless defenders of Palestine… So AOC had voted present… she had equivocated on some. And so we said, okay, you can’t do that anymore.” — Megan Romer (25:18)

6. Vision for 2028 and Beyond

Running a Presidential Candidate (26:11–27:15)

• DSA seeks to build on Bernie Sanders’ legacy by injecting a clear democratic socialist voice into Democratic presidential primaries, both to shift debate and potentially win.
  • “We would love to win the presidency. We would also, at the very least, love to move the needle by having an actual democratic socialist voice in the debates.” — Megan Romer (26:41)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It is a brand that’s both policy and the fact that it’s running against the Democratic brand, which is in the gutter for a lot of folks.” — Will Staken (07:22)
• “We will refuse to abide by apartheid and we will use our money to improve lives here instead of destroy them abroad.” — Megan Romer (04:13)
• “They look at the Kamala Harris campaign…they felt like they weren’t getting Kamala Harris’s ear on major issues like Israel or Medicare for All or really wanting to push her to the left.” — Will Staken (09:23)
• “We’re not forming our candidates in a lab.” — Megan Romer (21:12)
• “It’s a genocidal apartheid state and I’m not apologizing for that.” — Megan Romer (24:07)
• “We would love to win the presidency…we would also, at the very least, love to move the needle by having an actual democratic socialist voice in the debates.” — Megan Romer (26:41)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:07 – Will Staken explains DSA’s recent electoral momentum
• 03:43 – Core DSA platform and priorities
• 06:36 – Ambitious structural reform aims
• 07:43 – The DSA’s polarizing but effective brand within Democratic primaries
• 10:07 – DSA planning for a 2028 presidential primary run
• 16:58 – Megan Romer on why DSA’s message resonates
• 18:03 – Addressing criticisms of extremism (policing/borders)
• 20:20 – Handling candidate vetting, “bad tweets,” and authenticity
• 22:15 – Israel, the anti-Semitism debate, and DSA’s position
• 24:24 – DSA’s conditional endorsement of AOC
• 26:11 – The rationale for running a DSA presidential candidate

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Episode Summary

The DSA is experiencing a significant moment: rapid electoral gains, a sharper platform focused on affordability and Palestinian rights, and a willingness to provoke intraparty schisms if necessary. Their unapologetically left-wing, anti-establishment approach appeals to many progressives disillusioned with mainstream Democrats, even as it draws fire from the party’s old guard and raises practical hurdles around messaging and candidate vetting. The ambition to field a 2028 presidential contender underscores DSA’s long-term strategy: not just shifting debates, but seizing real power.

Transcript

[Noel King]

Summer 2026 has it all. World Cup, State Fair, Heat Dome, Empire State Building couple.

[Will Staken]

What's all the hoopla going on over there? Two geniuses climbed to the top of

[Noel King]

the Empire State Building.

[Will Staken]

The top of the spire. Oh, that's awesome.

[Noel King]

And across the country, Democratic socialists are on the march. Three big primary wins for DSA candidates in New York City. The mayor's race in Washington, D.C. a shocker of a primary win in Colorado earlier this week. We will not wa. Were those vuvuzelas there at the end?

[Megan Romer]

I think those are air horns, actually. Okay, thank you.

[Noel King]

Now Kamala is reaching out to Zohran and AOC is endorsing Abdullah Sayed in Michigan. And David Duke is endorsing Darieliza's tweets. And if you're confused about Hot socialist summer, boy, do we have a show for you. What the DSA Wants and why it Won't settle, coming up on Today Explained.

[Megan Romer]

Here's something most wellness influencers won't tell you. Obsessing over supplements, powders, cold plunges, wearables and hacks. That's going to undermine your goals. I call it majoring in the minors. And it is one of the five mistakes I see people make most on their wellness journeys. I'm Rapid Arjun, VP and head instructor at Peloton. And this week on my podcast Project Swagger, I'm sharing all of those mistakes and what I want to see you do instead. Follow Project Swagger now wherever you get your podcasts. Ever feel like your paycheck disappears the second it hits your account? Like a 25 cocktail and rent that costs you a kidney is just sort of normal now? Well, I'm Vivian Tew, your rich bff. And on net worth and Chill, we're looking into what's really driving the cost of living crisis, where your wallet is hurting the most and the hacks to bring those prices back down to something that actually makes sense. Ready to stop getting screwed at the pump, the grocery store or on your rent check? Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube.com YourRichBFF this is today,

[Noel King]

explained Will Staken, national politics correspondent for Politico. The DSA feels like a big deal right now. What's going on?

[Will Staken]

I keep hearing it's DSA summer, which seems to be the trend, at least online. And yeah, I mean, DSA is coming off Tuesday night, which was maybe their biggest kind of win of the primary season so far with Mela Kiros, you know, knocking off a nearly 30 year incumbent in Daguet Denver voters of all

[Megan Romer]

ages, of all races, of all religions sent a clear message. We will not wait.

[Will Staken]

But it's kind of been like a string of victories we've seen over the past few months where starting a few months ago where Chris Raab in Pennsylvania had a big win, and then that kind of transitioned into a week ago where these candidates in New York kind of shocking the world and really putting the stamp on the primary season for Democrats ousting even incumbents.

[Megan Romer]

Tonight, we haven't just won an election. We have declared that this movement is durable. No longer will we accept the politics that throws scraps at us and acts

[Noel King]

as if we should be grateful for them.

[Will Staken]

Really kind of showing the power of what the left flank of the party is looking to flex in this primary season. And I think the question is moving forward was how far outside of kind of like places like New York City can this leftist insurgent, how much success can they actually have, at least in Denver, a huge showing where, like I said, a 30 year incumbent was just, you know, kicked out of Congress.

[Noel King]

What does the DSA want? What is their platform? What do they believe? What are the, what are their main talking points?

[Will Staken]

Yeah, I think their platform in terms of policy, you know, is maybe not going to surprise folks. These are democratic socialists, so they want Medicare for all. They really push for strong unions and labor rights. They push for affordable housing. But I think one thing that's really resonating with folks that I talk to is their stance, their pro Palestinian rights stance, their opposition to US Military aid to Israel.

[Megan Romer]

I will continue to call for Palestinian liberation. We will stand up to the genocide. We will refuse to abide by apartheid and we will use our money to improve lives here instead of destroy them abroad. And no, we will not wait to end the genocide in Palestine.

[Will Staken]

I think those are kind of the big platforms and also, just like I said, a larger affordability. When you talk to DSA candidates or members, a lot of what you hear is they want to put the working class.

[Megan Romer]

No longer will we accept anything less than respect and a seat at the table that our labor built.

[Will Staken]

We know that no matter where you live, working people are struggling with the cost of living crisis. And in each of these campaigns, in each of these candidacies, I see champions who would not only be partners of our affordability agenda in Washington, but also help to lead our party in a new direction where we understand that at the heart of everything we do, but must be the dignity of working class people that for too long have been in the rearview mirror. Of the Democratic Party. And I think it's not only just a policy, but it's also the way it's wrapped in this anti establishment fighter brand.

[Noel King]

How ideological is the dsa? We keep hearing this term sewer socialism and I think that suggests something about the things that they want to get done maybe versus the things that they believe. But how ideological is this group?

[Will Staken]

If you talk to them? I think they're very ideological, very policy forward. They want to get these, not only do they want to get these policies enacted, but I think they believe in the long game. When you talk to them, they understand that it's about moving the Overton window in terms of are they ideological. They also know that they are working with a little bit of house money now because of how disliked and in the gutter the Democratic brand largely is right now. And I think while you see folks like on the right using the fact that these are DSA candidates and it's socialism and you know, using that as thinking it's going to, you know, hurt them. They use the word social Democrat because it sounds so nice, but it's really

[Megan Romer]

communism you're talking about.

[Sean Ramerstrom]

Okay, here's just a sample of what they're about.

[Megan Romer]

They put this on paper, they're saying

[Will Staken]

the quiet things out loud. Abolish the electoral college, replace the two party system with a multi party democracy in a primary. I think they wear that as a badge of honor. They get to point at the establishment Democrats and say, yeah, I'm not with Hakeem Jeffries, I am not an establishment Democrat. And you know, that helps them. It gives them a little bit of street cred at least in a primary. We'll have to see how that plays out in a general election, obviously in some of these closer Batagon states. But right now, I mean it is a brand that's both policy and the fact that it's, you know, you know, running against the Democratic brand, which is in, in the gutter for a lot of folks. I think that's what they see as a plus. What I think you're going to see is while you might not see DSA candidates in places like, you know, purple or especially red states, I think you're going to see a lot of candidates mimicking that fighter anti establishment style as much as possible, which is clearly there's so much hunger at least in the Democratic primary for that.

[Noel King]

Yeah, we heard this week or we saw some reporting this week that Kamala Harris has reached out to Zohan Mamdani indicating that she at least is interested in what he and his have going on. But it's still notable that some of these DSA candidates are being criticized by both mainstream Democrats and Republicans. James Carville said the other day, you know, more or less he doesn't want them in his tent. And I think that came down to some tweets from the New York winner, Darieliza Avila Chevalier.

[Will Staken]

She has attacked interracial relationships in the American flag.

[Noel King]

Lady, I ain't in the same party as you.

[Will Staken]

I'm sorry. I just not. And I actually do think it's time for Democrats to talk the S word schism. I really do.

[Noel King]

What do you make of their ability to polarize in a primary?

[Will Staken]

I think they like that. You know, I think they want to polarize people that especially the old guard of folks that had been telling especially younger voters for so long, wait your turn. Don't be so loud. Don't go so far as Medicare for all. I think they, number one, that's part of what they want to do. They want to, like, you know, fight back against those kinds of folks. They look at the Kamala Harris campaign, and when I'm talking to these kinds of candidates and these kinds of voters and folks on the ground and surrogates, you know, they were completely turned off by the Kamala Harris campaign. The Kamala Harris campaign that embraced Liz Cheney, that embraced, you know, a lot of folks that, for the left flank of the base would never want to be associated with in order to broaden the tent. Sure. I mean, that's, that's what they were doing to try to win the election. But for them, I think they felt like they weren't getting Kamala Harris's ear and the Democratic Party's ear in terms of major issues like Israel or Medicare for all or really wanting to push her to the left. And so I think right now they want to kind of throw a Molotov cocktail into the party and just say, we're blowing this up. And so if it's going to ruffle feathers, so be it. I think a big test for this movement is going to be Michigan, the Michigan Senate race with. With Abdul said, I think that is going to be a huge test for where this insurgent energy can go.

[Sean Ramerstrom]

We need Democrats who are willing to

[Will Staken]

take the fight to Donald Trump, who

[Megan Romer]

are willing to take a fight to

[Sean Ramerstrom]

the system that created Donald Trump and are willing to go take those down.

[Noel King]

So you reported that the DSA has ambitions to run a candidate in the 2028 primary. Tell me about the Is that candidate chosen yet? Do we know who it is and how are they trying to figure this out?

[Will Staken]

They view 2028, the presidency, as like a gigantic opportunity. They don't play cute. They're straight up saying, like, you work fine. We're looking for a candidate right now. And I think they really see 2028 on the backs of Mamdani's rise with Bernie Sanders, with the potential of AOC presidential run. They view that as a huge opportunity. And what they're doing right now is, is DSA is actually, they're sending, you know, hundreds of surveys out to all their members across the country, surveying them, asking them who, who should DSA endorse? What are you looking for in a candidate? You know, what are the things that you want that are deal breakers and, and they're going to collect all those. I'm heard, I'm hearing it's going to be like potentially hundreds of thousands of pages of research, which is, seems very on brand for them maybe. And I think they're going to put that all together and in September come to a decision and, and see who they're going to endorse. And another thing that's kind of bittersweet when I, when I talk to them is that they found this kind of gem in Zoran Mamdani, who they view and I think a lot of people view as kind of a like once in a lifetime political generational talent. And he can't run for president. I noticed that you're turning 35 soon, right? A few months, yes. So you now hit one of the constitutional requirements to run for president. But there's another one that says you have to be a natural born citizen. You were not born. Yes, but do you think that's a, that's a something that should be changed in the Constitution? It would take an amendment. But do you think that that's. We should change that? No, no, I think the Constitution looks good the way it is.

[Megan Romer]

Just the way it is.

[Will Staken]

Just the way it is. I'm very excited to focus on New York City, but thank you for reminding me of my upcoming, upcoming 35 years old.

[Sean Ramerstrom]

35 years old.

[Will Staken]

Yes, sir. And so I imagine he will be deeply involved in finding out who that person is, but also campaigning for them. But it's not going to be Mamdani. And when I was talking to the DSA members, they were even saying like, you know, they laugh and there's like an ongoing joke inside DSA where they're like, we should just run Mamdani anyways. Like, let's just cause a constitutional crisis and just see what happens. And one of the DSA chair was like I think people are joking but I also think a lot of people aren't really joking. Obviously I don't think that's going to happen, but to the point of like trying to find someone that works Already being done.

[Noel King]

Politico's will Staken when we come back. We're going straight to the source. A DSA co chair joins me to talk about policy, ideals and reality. Bad tweets, Israel and 2028

[Megan Romer]

foreign.

[Sean Ramerstrom]

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[Megan Romer]

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[Sean Ramerstrom]

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[Noel King]

Sean Ramerstrom, let me ask you a question. Which journalistic endeavors do you pay money to support?

[Sean Ramerstrom]

Oh my gosh. Which or like how many? Let me think. That one and that one and that one. A bunch of public radio stations, a big newspaper that I can think of some substacks. So many newsletters, I don't know if they're substacks. But like, I was trying to count the other day because someone asked me and I think, I think it's like six newsletters at least. Dang, Like a lot. How about you? Are you in the newsletter camp too?

[Noel King]

All of that, not so much newsletters. A lot of podcasts on Patreon.

[Sean Ramerstrom]

Heck yeah.

[Noel King]

Which reminds me.

[Sean Ramerstrom]

Oh yeah, you were like, yes, anding me. Okay, you dear listener, can support this show Today explained. And in doing so support Vox, which makes this show possible. By going to Vox.com members, there's benefits. You get to listen to the show without ads. You get little perks.

[Noel King]

Check it out and thank you.

[Sean Ramerstrom]

You're listening to Today Explained.

[Noel King]

Megan Romer is a co chair of the Democratic Socialists of America. The DSA has had big primary wins in New York, in Colorado, just last night. We're speaking on Wednesday in the mayoral race in Washington D. That's where I live. Why do you think DSA candidates are doing so well in elections right now?

[Megan Romer]

I think there's both the kind of rage that people have about, about seeing any remnants of our safety net, social safety net, be dismantled. I think they see their wages stagnating while inflation continues to go up and cost of living continues to go up. And I think that has people really on edge. But I also think that they're looking for, for answers and for solutions and for things that are actually gonna change their lives for the better. When we talk about expanding childcare for all or Medicare for all, childcare debt and medical debt, those are, those are very real issues to real people. So I think they're excited to see someone not just saying, well, the other guy's worse, but really saying, look, we're gonna rethink some of these things and come up with solutions together.

[Noel King]

Your economic message definitely seems to have caught fire for Americans who really do feel like life is too expensive. But the DSA's positions, domestic issues like borders, like policing, open you up to claims that the DSA is just too extreme for regular Americans. I know that you're aware of this charge. How do you respond to that?

[Megan Romer]

Yeah, so a lot of the charges coming from sort of documents or sometimes panels where they're clipping people and talking about it that are really sort of expressing this long term view because we're trying to, we're not just trying to like fix little problems. We're trying to really get to the root of these societal problems and think about what life could look like and what society could look like if we change them. So things like abolishing the carceral state as we know it, right? People say, so you're just gonna fire all the police? Like, well, no. The goal is free childcare, free health care, free college, these sort of things that will actually make there be less crime. We know crime is inextricably linked to poverty. We're not saying like, yes, let murderers run free in the streets. We're saying, if we have eliminated in this long term vision a lot of these crimes of poverty, crimes of desperation, what can the system look like? And it will have to be different.

[Noel King]

It's hard to convince people on that score too, because even in a much better world, people will still murder other people. This is an unfortunate fact. And voters here abolish the carceral state, whether it's next week or 50 years from now. And they sense that you are unrealistic. They sense that you are not where they are. Working class voters in the last election moved toward Donald Trump in part because as we understand it from polling, many people felt like the Democrats were just, had just gotten too pie in the sky. Right. They were too extreme on cultural issues. And so I wonder whether the DSA considers that the economic platform is, is very appealing. Abolish the carceral state simply isn't.

[Megan Romer]

We think it's important to connect those two things. Right? So the reason you do something matters too, right? So they say, well, you want to abolish the police. It's like, well, we're not doing that right now. But we have invested in care not cops programs because the long term goal is to stop prosecuting people for crimes of poverty. It's not to make you less safe, it's to make you more safe. Because right now the system as it works does not make us more safe.

[Noel King]

There are real concerns about some candidates who are affiliated with the dsa. Darieliza Avila Chevalier just won a big election in New York City. She said in tweets at one point that she wiped her dirty Hands on an American flag because she didn't have napkins. She suggested that white people shouldn't be in interracial relationships. There's a lot more. She has apologized, and independently, she deleted her Twitter account. She told my colleague Estad Herndon, she finds it better to not spend too much time online. But I wonder if you are. If you are working with anti establishment candidates. Right. There is a level of vetting that just. It just isn't going to be the same as with establishment candidates. Do you think you're going to have difficulty finding candidates who are strong on your economic message but don't have to issue these embarrassing apologies?

[Megan Romer]

Yeah, I mean, that's kind of the. That. That is an interesting spot we're in. We're not forming our candidates in a lab. Right. We're not. We're not, like, raising Perfect model UN children and sending them to. Oh, come on.

[Noel King]

Perfect model.

[Megan Romer]

They exist.

[Noel King]

White people shouldn't be in interracial relationships.

[Megan Romer]

No, I agree. No, that is. That is way out there. No, what I'm saying is, like, we are dealing with imperfect, messy people, for sure. And I, you know, were not

[Noel King]

like.

[Megan Romer]

I don't know why she tweeted that. I. I'm imagining there was like. Like she had a bad breakup and was just tweeting too close to the sun or some. Some terrible thing. Yeah, that's a. That's a bad tweet. She apologized for it. Trump did bad tweets this morning. Right. Like, we're just like, oh, God. But, yeah, you know, that, that is going to be. That is going to be the reality of running candidates who did not come into adult life thinking they were ever going to be a candidate.

[Noel King]

I want to ask you about an issue that's become very sensitive over the past few years. The DSA's focus on Israel strikes some people as obsessive, possibly even tipping into anti Semitic. So let me give you a couple of examples that I see cited frequently. On October 7, after Hamas attacked Israel, the DSA released a statement expressing solidarity with Palestine. It did condemn the killing of all civilians, but it added, this was not unprovoked. Mayor Mamdani recently set some Jewish leaders on edge when he referred to AIPAC as monsters. He said he was quoting the philosopher Antonio Gramsci, a DSA candidate in Colorado who had a big win last night, Milat Kiros. She was recently asked by a reporter whether a firebombing attack on a peaceful Jewish gathering in Boulder was an act of antisemitism. And she said, I don't know what's in the perpetrator's heart. Now, there's an argument that these types of things taken together illustrate that there is antisemitism within the dsa. There's also a more nuanced argument that says the DSA isn't anti Semitic, but you're fostering a culture that allows your members to talk in ways that are. What do you say to American Jews who think the way that DSA affiliated politicians talk about Israel goes beyond taking issue with foreign policy and into something darker?

[Megan Romer]

Yeah, I mean, that is something that, that I think we think a lot about. But the, what we see is that, that, that Israel is perpetrating a genocide. People are mad when they and should be mad. It's a genocide. We, we don't equivocate on that definition or on that understanding of the events. We see an apartheid state. We see people being in an open air concentration camp essentially in the Gaza Strip. So people are mad. And sometimes, yeah, people are mad and they're going to not, not nuance their words as much as they should. I do think it's very important, obviously that we stand against anti Semitism in all its forms, but I do not see the state of Israel as something that I like. I don't think we should be defending it on any grounds. It's a genocidal apartheid state and I'm not apologizing for that.

[Noel King]

In 2024, the DSA rescinded an endorsement of AOC. AOC, of course, is a fierce critic of Israel. After she attended a panel with Jewish leaders on anti Semitism. A lot of people looked at that and said, you have a fierce critic of Israel who attended a panel on antisemitism and the DSA rescinded their endorsement of her. You can see the math here. You can sort of see where the brain goes from here. Why did the DSA rescind its endorsement of aoc?

[Megan Romer]

Yeah, so that was actually a complicated process. We didn't actually rescind our endorsement of AOC in that way. So what we did was we made a, an endorsement that came with some strings attached, which was kind of the first time we'd ever done that. And we said, we want you to pledge to not fund Israeli military anything. Not defense, not offense, no weapons for Israel. We want you to not sign on to any of that which she had voted. I think she voted present on the Iron Dome. Basically, we want her in line, in the same voting line as is Rashida Tlaib. If Rashida Tlaib votes for it. Who is one of the most, you know, fearless defenders of Palestine and the Palestinian people in Congress. So AOC had voted present on some, and she had equivocated on some. And. And so we said, okay, you can't do that anymore. AOC has since pledged to vote no on all funding of any kind for Israeli military.

[Noel King]

So ultimately she came around to your point of view. The pressure worked.

[Megan Romer]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Noel King]

So the dsa, we're told, and you can confirm it wants to run a presidential primary candidate in 2028. Tell me what that means about your ambitions.

[Megan Romer]

We would love. You know, the Bernie Sanders campaign, it kind of changed the face of the American left a bit. He was the first person who went out there on stage and said, I am a democratic socialist. And it kind of felt like it gave a lot of people, they felt like they had permission to say it out loud. It kind of broke the dam a little bit on using that big scary S word. So if we run a presidential candidate, we can at least make sure that there is a voice in the primary holding people to account. I think when Bernie was in the primary, him standing strong for Medicare for All got a bunch of the other candidates to sign a Medicare for all pledge. Those things are good. And so it. We would love to win the presidency. We would also, at the very least, love to move the needle by having an actual democratic socialist voice in the debates. Fighting for working families, fighting for labor unions, fighting for health care for everybody, and fighting against the military industrial complex.

[Noel King]

Megan Rohmer, as co chair of the Democratic Socialists of America, Danielle Hewitt produced today's show. Miranda Kennedy and Jolie Myers edited. Patrick Boyden. David Tadashore engineered and Gabriel Dunatov was on deleted tweets. Additional thanks today to Zach Beacham and Andrew Procop. I'm Noel King. It's Today explained.