TikTok’s new owners

Summary

Podcast Summary: "TikTok’s New Owners"

Podcast: Today, Explained (Vox)
Episode Title: TikTok’s new owners
Date: September 23, 2025
Hosts: Noel Kim, Miles Bryan
Guests: Amrith Ramkumar (Wall Street Journal), Ben Smith (Semaphore)

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Overview

This episode unpacks the rapidly changing landscape of American media ownership, focusing on the Ellison family’s rising influence and their involvement in deals reshaping iconic companies—most notably, the purchase of CBS, a major stake in TikTok, and ambitions for even larger mergers. The discussion addresses regulatory, political, and cultural questions surrounding these consolidations, particularly what it means for TikTok’s future in the U.S., the control of its underlying algorithm, and the influence of Trump-aligned billionaires on legacy and social media.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Rise of the Ellison Family in U.S. Media

• Context:

  • Media consolidation is intensifying, with the Ellisons (Larry and David) emerging as new, significant power players (00:09).
  • The family, previously less prominent than the Murdochs or Sulzbergers, is now moving aggressively into media via Oracle, Paramount, and soon, TikTok and possibly Warner Bros Discovery (00:21).

• Quote:

  • “Ellisons. Meet the Ellisons, the newest right wing billionaire family from Silicon Valley.” — Miles Bryan (00:09)

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2. What’s Actually Happening With TikTok’s U.S. Operations?

• Background:
  • Ongoing political and legislative pressure over ByteDance’s Chinese ownership of TikTok has led to demands for a U.S.-controlled entity (02:16, 03:38).
  • Bipartisan concerns include data privacy, potential Chinese interference, and algorithmic manipulation.
• The Deal:
  • A new consortium led by U.S. investors (including Oracle and Silverlake) will take control of TikTok's U.S. operations. ByteDance's ownership will be reduced below 20% (08:47).
  • Oracle is a core player; Fox (Murdochs) and Michael Dell may join (09:56).
• The Algorithm Question:
  • The TikTok algorithm will be “leased” to the new U.S. entity, with security assurances from Oracle (04:39). Many in Washington remain skeptical about whether this walled-off structure truly removes Chinese influence.
• Quote:
  • “Essentially the answer would be yes... ByteDance... would copy the algorithm it uses globally and then lease it to this new entity.” — Amrith Ramkumar (04:39)
  • “The algorithm is a huge issue, and we don't want to make allowances for China to continue to influence, control what 170 million Americans see and their outlook on the world.” — Ben Smith (05:40)
• User Impact:
  • The most immediate effect is certainty: TikTok will remain operational in the U.S. (02:27).
  • Both political and economic self-interest suggest owners will keep the app’s experience largely unchanged—for now (13:37).

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3. TikTok’s Journey Through Two Presidential Administrations

• Timeline:
  • Trump first targeted TikTok over national security fears, attempted a ban unless ByteDance relinquished ownership (06:10–06:26).
  • The Biden administration signed similar mandates, capping ByteDance's ownership (06:49).
  • In his second term, Trump pursued a deal to keep TikTok alive, motivated both by political calculus and business interests (07:04–08:33).
• Quote:
  • “And then Trump kind of realizes, well, I don't want to just do something that my predecessor signed... and I can make a lot of people happy if I just do a deal, and I love doing deals.” — Amrith Ramkumar (08:16)

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4. Oracle, Larry Ellison, and the Trump Connection

• Profile:
  • Larry Ellison, now the world’s second richest man, co-founded Oracle and is pivotal in both tech and media. Oracle’s role as an infrastructure and AI powerhouse makes it integral to the TikTok and media deals (10:50–11:26).
• Trump Relationship:
  • Ellison is seen as a “longtime ally” of Trump, their rapport cemented over shared business and personal history (12:46).
• Political Implications:
  • Several consortium members are Trump-aligned; concerns swirl about partisan manipulation of TikTok’s algorithm and media platforms (13:14).
• Quote:
  • “They're seen as longtime allies by the president. And we've been told he sort of sees Larry as an OG of sorts in the tech space.” — Amrith Ramkumar (12:46)

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5. Paramount, CBS, and the Next Wave of Consolidation

• David Ellison & Skydance:
  • Skydance, run by Larry’s son David Ellison, has acquired Paramount (and CBS), and is bidding for Warner Bros Discovery (19:20, 20:17).
• Industry Impact:
  • The trend is towards “bundling” streaming platforms to combat oversaturation and financial inefficiencies (19:45).
  • There are new, unprecedented alignments of news (CBS, CNN) and entertainment under singular billionaire stewardship (20:41).
• Quote:
  • “Now I think all bets are off. And there is a world where CBS ownership now operates CNN as well.” — Ben Smith (20:45)
• Political Bargains:
  • Trump allegedly secured significant PSA air time and legal fee payments from CBS/Paramount in exchange for regulatory approval or favorable treatment (21:33–22:15).
• Quote:
  • “CBS paid up for... the glory of what will ultimately be the CBS. Mark Zuckerberg, Jeff Bezos Presidential Library to get the administration off their back.” — Ben Smith (22:30)

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6. The Bari Weiss Factor: Media Direction and Culture Wars

• Background:
  • David Ellison may offer a prominent role at CBS to Bari Weiss, known for her contrarian, anti-woke stance and her time at the WSJ and NYT (23:00, 24:24).
• Industry Skepticism:
  • TV professionals question putting an “opinion blogger” atop a complex news division (25:54).
• Larger Point:
  • The media’s core problem isn’t just political—it’s technological disruption. CBS and similar outlets have been losing relevance for decades, regardless of their politics (26:43).

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7. The Changing Media Landscape and Political Realignment

• Legacy vs. New Media:
  • Trump’s hostility toward legacy media is paradoxically accelerating the growth of new, oppositional Democratic media—YouTube channels, podcasts, etc. (27:23).
• Quote:
  • “Donald Trump won the presidency really primarily by riding this wave of new media... [Now], the main outcome... has been to spur the growth of an independent, anti Trump Democratic media and to drive Democrats away from these already really very challenged legacy outlets.” — Ben Smith (27:23)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On TikTok’s new direction:
  “American users... are going to be able to continue using it. So that's step number one...”
  — Amrith Ramkumar (02:58)

• On Larry Ellison’s background:
  “I had all the disadvantages necessary for success.”
  — Larry Ellison (quoted by Miles Bryan, 11:23)

• On Bari Weiss at CBS:
  “I think David Ellison obviously really likes what Weiss has done and wants to essentially put her in charge of the news division, whatever that means... She's just some blogger. And I've been kind of on both sides of this in my life and sympathize with both.”
  — Ben Smith (25:54)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Media Dynasties and Ellison Family Introduction – 00:01–00:21
• What Does U.S. Control of TikTok Mean? – 02:16–05:55
• TikTok’s Political Fallout Across Two Administrations – 06:01–08:33
• Structure of the TikTok Deal – 08:47–09:56
• Oracle, Larry Ellison, and Trump Connections – 10:50–12:46
• Ellison's Broader Media Moves (Paramount/CBS/Warner Bros Discovery) – 19:04–21:29
• Trump’s Alleged Bargains with CBS/Paramount – 21:33–22:15
• Bari Weiss and CBS News Direction – 23:00–26:43
• Trump, Media, and New Political Realignments – 27:23–28:42

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Conclusion

The episode paints a vivid picture of consolidation and realignment within U.S. media—highlighting the Ellisons as the latest in a line of politically influential billionaire families steering the future of both legacy and new media. Despite assurances of operational continuity for users, deep skepticism remains over the long-term implications for transparency, editorial independence, and political neutrality—especially as billionaire ownership, partisan interests, and technological change converge.

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Recommended for listeners seeking:

• Insight into U.S.–China tech tensions
• The impact of billionaire ownership on news and digital platforms
• Evolving media industry business models
• The intersection of politics, technology, and cultural influence

Transcript

[Noel Kim]

In an age of media consolidation, family dynasties are having a moment. The Murdochs, the Sulzbergers, the Roys, the Hearsts and the new kids on the block.

[Miles Bryan]

Ellisons. Meet the Ellisons, the newest right wing billionaire family from the Silicon Valley. Larry made his money with technology.

[Noel Kim]

The Ellison family Potter Larry Eho David and their money just bought CBS. Paramount will soon take a big stake in TikTok and are reportedly gonna bid for Warner Bros. Discovery, which owns cn. It's been said that nothing bad can happen. It can only good happen.

[Amrith Ramkumar]

Nothing bad can happen.

[Ben Smith]

It can only good happen.

[Noel Kim]

But is yet another Trump aligned family having control of your grandpa's TV shows and your TikTok algo something to worry about? Answers ahead on Today. Explained.

[Amrith Ramkumar]

Larry.

[Miles Bryan]

Support for the show comes from ServiceNow. AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built into, don't you know? That's why it's no surprise that more than 85% of the Fortune 500 use the ServiceNow AI platform. Didn't know that? While other platforms duct tape tools together, ServiceNow seamlessly unifies people, data workflows and AI connecting every corner of your business. And with AI agents working together autonomously, anyone and any department can focus on the work that matters most. I've never met an AI agent. Learn how ServiceNow puts AI to work for [e-mail] for a long time, there's been a pretty clear narrative around metabolism.

[Noel Kim]

Wake up America. Are you guys ready to listen or you want to get fatter and sicker?

[Miles Bryan]

But this week on Unexplainable Recent research has scientists wondering whether some of the most basic things they took for granted are wrong.

[Amrith Ramkumar]

I thought I understood metabolism, but I realized I didn't.

[Noel Kim]

And I really wanted to know what is it like? What is this really about?

[Miles Bryan]

Follow Unexplainable for new episodes every Monday and Wednesday.

[Ben Smith]

This is Today Explained.

[Amrith Ramkumar]

I'm Amrith Ramkumar. I'm the tech policy reporter for the Wall Street Journal in Washington. So cover all things tech.

[Noel Kim]

In D.C. we are seeing a headline that suggests America is going to get TikTok. What is America going to get here exactly?

[Amrith Ramkumar]

The biggest thing is certainty for U.S. tikTok users that the app will continue operating in the U.S. that's, I think, what most people care about. They're not that worried about the complex deal that made that happen or any of the geopolitical implications for a lot of people who are addicted to the app.

[Ben Smith]

Look here, I know they finna take TikTok from us, but can we like.

[Amrith Ramkumar]

Can we come to an agreement, please?

[Noel Kim]

The thought of it just being gone is like, sad. Like, what? Why? Why does it have to go down the drain like that? Why are you doing this?

[Amrith Ramkumar]

They're gonna be able to continue using it. So that's step number one, I think, and that's what the administration is focusing a lot on, that they're the ones that prevented the app from going dark and any changes there. But if you dig a little deeper, it is also very important that a group of US investors will now gain control of TikTok's US operations. That' something a lot of people in Washington have been pushing for, for over five years, and it seems like they're on the doorstep of making that happen.

[Ben Smith]

I think that it's a deal that's going to be great, and it's also controlled by very powerful and very substantial American people.

[Noel Kim]

What are U.S. operations? What does that mean?

[Amrith Ramkumar]

Yeah, U.S. operations for TikTok are basically all of the users in the U.S. there are about 170 million of them. So it's all the content, all their data, and anything that is basically separate from the global operations. So the backstory is that there have been concerns for many years that because TikTok parent ByteDance is a Chinese company, that the Chinese government could potentially access US User data or control the content that is used by American users.

[Noel Kim]

It's the fact that the Chinese government owns a company that is collecting very sensitive information from American citizens that it can use to create an algorithm that will provide very addictive information to provide messages and videos that could mislead the American people and manipulate our elections. And we should.

[Amrith Ramkumar]

So the deal that is being done is attempting to address both of those big concerns.

[Noel Kim]

Okay, and what about the thing that makes TikTok TikTok, which is the algorithm, does the US get that too, in this deal?

[Amrith Ramkumar]

That is the billion or tens of billions of dollars question. It's a very complex setup from what we're being told. Essentially the answer would be yes, based on. But the administration and people around TikTok have said there would be a complex way of doing this where ByteDance, the Chinese parent company of TikTok, would copy the algorithm it uses globally and then lease it to this new entity that is being created by this transaction. And so the new entity would then control it and they would run it through basically all the users in America. So it'd be a US Specific algorithm, sort of. And they say that lease arrangement and security provided by the cloud computing firm Oracle would make sure that there's no Chinese interference, and it's totally separate. There are definitely people in Washington who don't buy that arrangement or they don't believe that it is fully walled off from ByteDance and Chinese influence. But at the end of the day.

[Ben Smith]

The algorithm is a huge issue, and we don't want to make allowances for China to continue to influence, control what 170 million Americans see and their outlook on the world.

[Amrith Ramkumar]

So, as usual, we'll see where things end up and how this gets implemented, but that's how they're selling it at this point.

[Noel Kim]

Can you remind us of the state of play with TikTok? Right up until now, what has been going on here?

[Amrith Ramkumar]

People have been worried about TikTok in Washington going back to the first Trump administration. We're looking at TikTok. We may be banning TikTok. Trump himself signed an executive order saying that ByteDance would basically have to relinquish control or the app would have to stop operating in the US they have.

[Ben Smith]

Till September 15 to make a deal. After that, we close it up in this country.

[Amrith Ramkumar]

And there were deal talks involving companies like Walmart and Oracle. Lawmakers have been worried that the Chinese could access US User data or sway what content is seen by US Users.

[Miles Bryan]

Of what nation?

[Ben Smith]

Are you a citizen? Singapore is.

[Miles Bryan]

Are you a citizen of any other nation?

[Amrith Ramkumar]

No, Senator.

[Miles Bryan]

Have you ever applied for Chinese citizenship? Senator?

[Amrith Ramkumar]

And so those concerns really continued and crescendoed in the Biden administration, and they led to Biden signing into law, something that was very similar to what Trump was talking about in his first term. It's going to make America safer.

[Ben Smith]

It's going to make the world safer.

[Amrith Ramkumar]

Essentially saying that ByteDance would have to reduce its ownership stake below 20% or stop operating. That was sort of a key demarcation point. But as usual, Trump sort of sees all of this and he sees Biden sign this thing into law. And then he's hearing from people like his son Barron and former adviser Kellyanne Conway, who does polling and was doing work on behalf of TikTok. And they're saying to Trump, you can win this election if you start using TikTok. If you go on more podcasts and reach young people, they basically saw a huge opportunity. There's where the Biden campaign was not using those tools, and Trump was convinced of that. POV 100 days left before President Trump delivers another knockout. And then as he's getting ready to take office and start his second term, a lot of he was hearing from a lot of users who were very Upset because the line of demarcation set in the law that Biden signed was January 19, 2025. And then Trump kind of realizes, well, I don't want to just do something that my predecessor signed who I dislike strongly and don't want to credit him or give him this win. And I can make a lot of people happy if I just do a deal, and I love doing deals. So that was sort of the context for how these negotiations with China and these companies started.

[Noel Kim]

Okay. So ultimately, a deal between the US And China had to be made. And what we're hearing now is it was, in fact made. President Trump says he'll sign an executive order about it later this week. What is in the deal? What do we know?

[Amrith Ramkumar]

Well, first, the deal's not done. That's the first thing to understand. It's like a preliminary agreement, sort of a framework. This executive order that the President is going to sign is basically going to say, from what we can tell, that we have the contours of the deal and they satisfy the law, satisfy the national security conditions, and that's one step on the process of finalizing things. And so basically, under this deal, U.S. investors and allies, essentially, they will take control of this new entity that's created to run TikTok in the U.S. so the understanding is that this new group of U.S. investors, this consortium featuring the private equity firm Silverlake and cloud computing company Oracle that we've talked about, they would be part of this group and they would own roughly half of this new entity. And then existing ByteDance investors, that includes some Trump allies, they and others would own the existing group, would own roughly 30%. And then that's what lets ByteDance's ownership stake drop just below the 20% outlined in the law. And it's also important to note that that consortium has been changing by the day.

[Noel Kim]

Trump mentioned the Murdaughs over the weekend. He said, hate to tell you this.

[Amrith Ramkumar]

But a man named Lachlan. You know who Lachlan is? That's a very unusual name. Lachlan Murdoch. Yes. And we're told that basically means Fox would invest. But, yes, the Murdochs could be involved. And he mentioned Michael Dell, who's also been reported around this and been around it for a while. He could be involved, but that Trump loves that element. Right. Because now he has this framework agreement and then he can. Investors are calling, saying, we want to be part of this deal because we know this is a very valuable company and a lucrative opportunity. So now he can sort of pick and choose who he Lets in.

[Noel Kim]

Okay, so Oracle has a significant stake. Others may join, others may drop out. But Oracle is a real player here. And we can't talk about Oracle without talking about Larry Ellison. Who is Larry Ellison?

[Amrith Ramkumar]

Oh, man, how much time do you have? Larry Ellison is one of the richest men in the world. I mean, he co founded Oracle. Start there. Larry Ellison is now the world's second richest man thanks to his stake in Oracle. His company, Oracle, makes a widely used database.

[Ben Smith]

It handles everything from online banking to airline reservations.

[Noel Kim]

And you came from such humble beginnings, Grew up on the south side of Chicago, dropped out of college, now you have collections of cars, jets.

[Ben Smith]

Well, I think my favorite line is.

[Miles Bryan]

I had all the disadvantages necessary for success.

[Amrith Ramkumar]

Oracle is sort of one of the most important tech companies that most regular people have never heard about. They are experts at working with large databases which are key to the social media industry. But more importantly now they're a huge part of AI. So Oracle is now seen as one of the leading AI companies because they do AI infrastructure and they work with companies like OpenAI. But Larry Ellison has also expanded in other ways. So his family is now preparing a bid for Warner Brothers through their company Paramount Skydance, which they recently have been doing big deals in that space as well. He's sort of the most interesting man in the world, kind of vibes. He even helped the University of Michigan get the top ranked quarterback recruit last year now through the NIL system.

[Miles Bryan]

So the top recruit in the nation is going to Michigan because of a.

[Amrith Ramkumar]

Rich guy's girlfriend, Larry Ellison. They bought the quarterback. So he has a lot of money. He's pretty strategic with what he does with it. But yes, this TikTok deal would be his latest big win.

[Noel Kim]

Okay, so we have the Ellison family, Larry and David, taking big stakes in big media companies. What is their relationship to President Trump?

[Amrith Ramkumar]

They're seen as longtime allies by the president. And we've been told he sort of sees Larry as an OG of sorts in the tech space. So as he's embraced Sam Altman and all of this new generation of tech entrepreneurs, he's kind of comfortable with Larry because he's 81. They're roughly the same age. Having that sort of solid foundational relationship that goes back to the first administration seems to be helping a lot.

[Noel Kim]

This has made a lot of people quite leery. You have a wealthy old man, a lot of wealthy old men involved in this consortium. Trump aligned, for the most part controlling TikTok. Will they be able to manipulate the algorithm? Are they the ones who are going to be deciding what I see on TikTok.

[Amrith Ramkumar]

That's another really good question and something that hasn't been fully addressed yet. We don't know a ton about the operations and who will be doing what and what the oversight will be. I think priority one, though is showing they can run the app. They still have to prove the basic business case. From what everyone is saying, the whole what the investors want is for the operators to keep keep things roughly similar, right? To keep things the same. That's what's in their financial interest. It's not in their financial interest to come in and make a bunch of changes that overhaul things. You would think. So these people just want this deal done. They want their investment secure. TikTok just wants to operate in the US and users just want the experience to remain the same. So making changes or doing things that would be very disruptive seems against sort of their own interests there.

[Noel Kim]

He's Amrit Ramkumar, the tech policy reporter for the Wall Street Journal in Washington. Ahead, like father, like son, Ellison Jr. And weird times at CBS.

[Miles Bryan]

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[Noel Kim]

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[Miles Bryan]

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[Amrith Ramkumar]

Attention soul shoppers.

[Miles Bryan]

There is a clearing as today explained.

[Noel Kim]

Ben, go ahead, give me your full name and tell me what you do.

[Ben Smith]

Name is Ben Benjamin. Sorry I got my name wrong. Huh? Good start. My name's Ben Smith. I'm the editor in chief and co founder of Semaphore. Oh, and I co host the Mixed Signals podcast About Media with Max Tani.

[Noel Kim]

So we're here today to talk about the Ellisons, possibly America's newest media barons. In the first half of the show we talked about Larry Ellison and Oracle getting a stake in TikTok. But David Ellison, Larry's son, has also been getting some media properties.

[Ben Smith]

Yeah, yeah, that's right. And in particular, the company that he created called Skydance has swallowed Paramount, sort of a big older studio that also includes the old CBS assets, including CBS News. And so what we're going to do is restructure our business to run significantly more efficiently and then we're really going to invest into our growth areas like.

[Amrith Ramkumar]

Studios and streamings and sports.

[Ben Smith]

The hot trend in the streaming business is bundling. And that's because, as you know, you have too many damn streaming apps. And so you're only going to have three and you can't have seven. And so it makes sense sort of commercially for them to combine. Right now, the company operates three independent.

[Amrith Ramkumar]

Streaming services on three separate stacks on multiple clouds.

[Ben Smith]

That is the most ineffective way to do it, and it is also the.

[Amrith Ramkumar]

Most expensive way to do it.

[Ben Smith]

Skydance, which purchased Paramount, is now looking to swallow any even bigger target, Warner Bros. Discovery, which is the old legendary Warner studio which you know is currently operates the Max app and also happens to own cnn. This is CNN Breaking News.

[Noel Kim]

Yeah. Happens to own cnn. Talk about the stakes and importance of that.

[Ben Smith]

Well, in ordinary times, there was a sense that you don't want to go kind of combining all your news outlets under the same ownership because somebody could wield too much political power. And it would have been unlikely, I think, for the government to approve two broadcast networks like CNN and CBS combining under the same owners. Now I think all bets are off. And there is a world where CBS ownership now operates CNN as well, I should say. I mean, an important caveat here is that you, dear listener, are getting your news from a Vox podcast and may not have watched CBS News or CNN in a while. Like, these are struggling companies and there is kind of an argument that you all need to for any of them to survive. They all need to be crunched together because the TV news business is pretty rough right now.

[Noel Kim]

What did David Ellison have to do to close the Paramount CBS deal?

[Ben Smith]

Well, he won't say, but Donald Trump said that they made a deal under which he would air a bunch of PSAs for Trump administration initiatives. 16 million or maybe more than that in advertising. And he also again, says this is not some part of a deal, but he did settle an absolutely ridiculous lawsuit from the Trump administration claiming that they had committed fraud by editing an interview with Kamala Harris. In what turned out to be pretty innocuous ways on 60 Minutes tonight, a $16 million settlement.

[Noel Kim]

Paramount, the Parent company of CBS announcing.

[Miles Bryan]

It will pay President Trump's legal fees.

[Noel Kim]

And give money to his future presidential library.

[Amrith Ramkumar]

I think there's a lot of fear over there.

[Ben Smith]

Fear of.

[Amrith Ramkumar]

Fear of losing their job, fear of.

[Miles Bryan]

What'S happening to the country, fear of.

[Amrith Ramkumar]

Losing the First Amendment.

[Ben Smith]

But CBS paid up for, you know, I think the glory of what will ultimately be like the cbs. Mark Zuckerberg, Jeff Bezos Presidential Library to get the administration off their back. And it was successful.

[Noel Kim]

Do we know what David Ellison's political leanings are?

[Ben Smith]

No, you know, I think there it's been reported that he is a big supporter of Israel and a big fan of Bari Weiss, a conservative columnist who left the New York Times in the kind of like anti woke backlash.

[Noel Kim]

I'm Bari Weiss and today an introduction to America's cultural revolution.

[Ben Smith]

So I think it's safe to say that those are roughly his politics. But he's not like fundamentally a political character. I think people often, often people like us sort of pointy headed east coast news types can kind of misinterpret people on the west coast as being primarily about politics. David Ellison's life has been primarily about making like big stupid movies which I personally love, like the Jack Reacher movies, which are great.

[Amrith Ramkumar]

Remember you wanted this.

[Ben Smith]

He did the Top Gun remake.

[Amrith Ramkumar]

I give you Captain Pete Mitchell, call sign Maverick.

[Ben Smith]

Big poppy action movies that some have bombed, but more recently some have been really successful. And that's fundamentally the reason that you go and try to acquire a company like Paramount. I mean, people said of cbs, which also, by the way, CBS is mostly primetime entertainment. You know, the news division of CBS for the executives I think represented something like 4% of the revenue and 95% of the headaches. So that's kind of how these folks see news.

[Noel Kim]

Let's talk about Bari Weiss because we're hearing news that David Ellison might want a sort of serious role for her at cbs. You mentioned her leaving the New York Times. What's her background and where does she sit today in all of this?

[Ben Smith]

In the first Trump term, Barry was a young editor and writer in the opinion page of the Wall Street Journal and I think a friend and ally of Bret Stephens, another opinion writer there, who left the Journal when the Journal just basically made its pie with Donald Trump and both went to the New York Times. And Barry was an editor on the opinion page and also wrote sometimes about, mostly about kind of emerging intellectual trends on the center right. And she was, as the Times like I think, basically every social institution in the U.S. or many of them or corporate institutions in the U.S. you know, went through these spasms of conversation around racial justice and around the limits of speech and the role of media. Particularly in the summer of 20, she increasingly felt very, you know, out of sync with the institution and finally quit in a blaze of glory and went and started her own thing.

[Miles Bryan]

All right, this is a big, massive media story.

[Noel Kim]

The now former Opinion editor Bari Weiss leaving the paper after claiming she was bullied by her colleagues. Her scathing resignation letter reads, in part, they have called me a Nazi. The Free Press and her work there has been appealing. It's been divisive. I find myself unsubscribing and resubscribing to the Free Press about once every three months. What is your view of what she's doing there? How would you characterize the work?

[Ben Smith]

Well, a. Like, that's incredible. I wish I was, like, making you unsubscribe and resubscribe. I mean, you know, I think that she's been the most important voice of the backlash against. Against the kind of woke politics of the social media age. I mean, I think David Ellison obviously really likes what Weiss has done and wants to essentially put her in charge of the news division, whatever that means. He also has a bunch of television people around him who are like, wait, wait, wait, you can't put this kid in charge of this giant machine that makes television. That's a very. That's a kind of real specialized skill. And it's hard. And she's just some blogger. And I've been kind of on both sides of this in my life and sympathize with both. I mean, it's an incredibly hard job, however hard it was to start, as I know it is a new, successful news organization from scratch. I think it's harder to rescue an old one. And CBS News is a outfit that missed not just the Internet, but basically missed cable. And so they've been drifting into irrelevance for, I don't know, 30 years now. And their fundamental problem isn't that if only their politics were a little different, people would, like, flip their antennae back on and turn back on broadcast television. Like their core problems are the problems of every company that was disrupted by the Internet and didn't deal with it for the last 30 years.

[Noel Kim]

Yeah, it's a really good point. What about CNN? Do we have a sense of what Ellison Jr. Wants to do there?

[Ben Smith]

I think to the degree that he cares about news and seems to have expressed any interest internally, it's bringing it away from the woke revolution. And back to what he sees as the center. And of course, everybody thinks of themselves in the cent, more or less. The strange irony here is that Donald Trump won the presidency really primarily by riding this wave of new media, of the sort of ascendant digital people and formats and platforms, and has kind of turned his second term into a revenge plot against the dying legacy media, which he is, I think, in some ways trying to exert more influence over, trying to seize control over. But right now, the main outcome of that has been to spur the growth of an independent, anti Trump Democratic media and to drive Democrats away from these already really very challenged legacy outlets and toward a new generation. You know, places like the Bulwark, Midas, Touch Pod, Save America and a host of other influencers and YouTube channels are there to kind of catch Democrats who feel really alienated from the mainstream media, either because they felt it didn't fight Trump hard enough or because they now think it's being taken over by Trumpy oligarchs.

[Noel Kim]

Benjamin Smith is the editor in chief and co founder of Semaphore. He also co hosts the Mixed Signals podcast. It's about media. It's very good. Miles Bryan produced with an assist from Ariana Espuru. Doli Myers edited. Patrick Boyd writes the songs that make the whole world sing. Adrienne Lilly engineered and Laura Bullard checked the facts. I'm Noel Kim. It's today explained.