Trump v. Mangione

Summary

Podcast Title: Today, Explained
Host/Author: Vox
Episode: Trump v. Mangione
Release Date: April 17, 2025

---

Overview

In the April 17, 2025 episode of Today, Explained titled "Trump v. Mangione," hosts Sean Fleming and Shawn Romstrom delve into the high-profile court case of Luigi Mangione. Mangione, a 26-year-old accused of multiple serious crimes, has garnered significant public attention, both in support and opposition. This episode explores the complexities of his legal battles, the intense calls for the death penalty by prominent figures, and the unsettling parallels between Mangione and historic figures like Theodore Kaczynski, the infamous Unabomber.

---

Background on Luigi Mangione

Luigi Mangione stands at the center of a convoluted legal storm, facing severe charges across multiple jurisdictions. In Pennsylvania, he confronts five charges, including forgery and possession of a firearm without a license. More gravely, in New York, Mangione has been indicted on charges that escalate to murder as an act of terrorism. Notably, Mangione has maintained his innocence, pleading not guilty in federal court.

Notable Quote:

“Mangione pleaded not guilty in federal court.” – Sean Fleming [02:50]

---

Legal Proceedings and Charges

Mangione's upcoming court appearance marks his first since significant figures like the federal government, the Justice Department, former Attorney General Pam Bondi, and former President Donald Trump publicly advocated for the death penalty in his case. Despite multiple charges, Mangione has yet to be federally indicted, raising questions about the government's hesitance.

Notable Quotes:

“Every month for the last few months now, the government has asked for an extra 30 days to decide whether or not they're going to bring an indictment.” – Sean Fleming [03:35]

“He has received an outpouring of support and hundreds of thousands in donations to his legal fund.” – Sean Fleming [08:30]

---

Calls for the Death Penalty

Pam Bondi has been vocal in her pursuit of the death penalty for Mangione, labeling his actions as premeditated cold-blooded assassination and political violence. This stance has sparked debate, especially given New York State's constitutional prohibition against the death penalty.

Notable Quotes:

“Pam Bondi... put out this press release... she wants the death penalty for Mangione.” – Sean Fleming [05:17]

“We are to seek the death penalty when possible.” – Pam Bondi (paraphrased) [05:28]

Sean Fleming clarifies that while New York State itself does not sanction the death penalty, the federal government retains the authority under federal law to seek it in applicable cases.

---

Comparison to Theodore Kaczynski (Unabomber)

A significant portion of the episode draws parallels between Mangione and Theodore Kaczynski, exploring how Kaczynski's manifesto may have influenced Mangione's actions. Kaczynski, known for his anti-technology stance and prolonged bombing campaign, authored the Industrial Society and Its Future, which has seen a resurgence in influence amid contemporary anxieties about technology and societal progress.

Notable Quotes:

“The assassin of Brian Thompson also left some engravings on the shell casings, which reminds me of the engravings that Kaczynski left on the components of his bombs.” – Samantha Max [15:00]

“Many people read the manifesto and think, well, that's a good point... but when he starts talking about revolution, it's so omnicidal that it's impossible for most of us to take seriously.” – Samantha Max [24:05]

Sean Fleming highlights that both Mangione and Kaczynski share backgrounds in STEM fields and present themselves as disaffected overachievers, making their ideologies compelling to certain radical groups.

---

Influence and Public Reception

Mangione's case has ignited a divided public response. On one side, he has amassed a substantial fan base, often comprising young women and supporters who rally outside courtrooms with signs and chants. On the other, officials like the Manhattan District Attorney have vehemently criticized his supporters, labeling them as "extreme activists" and a "lawless mob."

The episode also touches upon the shifting perceptions of Kaczynski's manifesto over the decades—from being viewed as the ramblings of a paranoid schizophrenic to being reconsidered in light of modern technological anxieties.

Notable Quotes:

“The Manhattan DA called anybody who supports Luigi extreme activists and a lawless mob.” – Shawn Romstrom [09:34]

“In the 2020s, it looks like the world's caught up with him [Kaczynski].” – Samantha Max [25:58]

Sean Fleming emphasizes that public sentiment and jury perceptions are volatile and could significantly influence the outcomes of Mangione's legal proceedings.

---

Conclusion

The "Trump v. Mangione" episode of Today, Explained offers a comprehensive examination of a landmark case that sits at the intersection of criminal justice, political rhetoric, and societal fears about technology and radicalism. As Mangione's legal saga unfolds, the episode underscores the enduring impact of historical figures like Kaczynski and raises pertinent questions about the future of punishment, public influence, and the boundaries of extremist ideologies in modern America.

---

Notable Contributors:

• Sean Fleming: Research Fellow at the University of Nottingham
• Shawn Romstrom: Co-Host
• Samantha Max: Contributor from Gothamist

---

Timestamps for Notable Quotes:

• [02:50] – Sean Fleming on Mangione's plea
• [03:35] – Sean Fleming on government's delay in indictment
• [05:17] – Sean Fleming on Pam Bondi's press release
• [05:28] – Pam Bondi on seeking the death penalty
• [08:30] – Sean Fleming on public support for Mangione
• [09:34] – Shawn Romstrom on Manhattan DA's statement
• [15:00] – Samantha Max comparing Mangione to Kaczynski
• [24:05] – Samantha Max on the reception of Kaczynski's manifesto
• [25:58] – Samantha Max on Kaczynski's ongoing influence

---

For more detailed insights and updates on this case, listeners are encouraged to follow Samantha Max's coverage at [e-mail].

Transcript

[Shawn Romstrom]

Luigi Mangione is supposed to be back in court on Friday. And court looks different when Luigi shows up.

[Samantha Max]

Luigi.

[Sean Fleming]

The last time that I was in court with him, there were so many members of the public that wanted to be inside the courtroom, and so many of them were young women.

[Shawn Romstrom]

Mangione has a fan club, people outside.

[Sean Fleming]

With signs, people inside lining up, I mean, sometimes for a really long time to just want to get into the courtroom to see him. It's just a different experience than the people that you are typically seeing.

[Shawn Romstrom]

Put the system on trial. What'll be different this week is that it'd be the first time Mangioni appeared since the federal government, the Justice Department, Pam Bondi, Donald Trump have said they would like to seek the death penalty in this case. We're gonna ask how that's gonna go over in New York on today. Explained. Big news. Verizon small business days are here from April 21st through 27th. Book your appointment today to make our experts your experts get a free tech check, special deals and personalized advice. Call 1-800-483-4428 or visit verizon.com smallbusiness. We got you covered, Verizon business. This episode is brought to you by Lifelock. It's tax season and we're all a bit tired of numbers, but here's one.

[Sean Fleming]

You need to hear.

[Shawn Romstrom]

$16.5 billion. That's how much the IRS flagged for possible identity fraud last year. Now, here's a good number. 100 million. That's how many data points LifeLock monitors every second. If your identity is stolen, they'll fix it, guaranteed. Save up to 40% your first [e-mail].

[Samantha Max]

Podcast terms apply.

[Shawn Romstrom]

Today, explained. Shawn Romstrom here with Samantha Max from Gothamist. Samantha, you've been covering Luigi Mangione since we found out about Luigi Mangione. He's scheduled to be in federal court tomorrow. What can you tell us about what we can expect from this hearing?

[Sean Fleming]

Well, Mangione is facing a few different cases. Two here in New York, also one in Pennsylvania where he was arrested.

[Samantha Max]

The 26 year old faces five charges in Pennsylvania, including forgery and possession of.

[Shawn Romstrom]

A gun without a license.

[Sean Fleming]

In New York, he has already been indicted in state court.

[Shawn Romstrom]

Mangione was indicted on charges that included murder as an act of terrorism.

[Samantha Max]

The 26 year old pleaded not guilty in federal court.

[Sean Fleming]

What's going to be happening is he has been charged, but he hasn't actually been indicted. So the case would theoretically advance to another level where he could be indicted. After a grand jury had considered the allegations against him. And then he actually has not entered a plea in his federal case. So he would be probably entering a plea if he were indicted.

[Shawn Romstrom]

Why has he not yet been indicted federally? Do we, do we know?

[Sean Fleming]

That's a really good question. That is not totally clear at this point. Honestly, every month for the last few months now, the government has asked for an extra 30 days to decide whether or not they're going to bring an indictment.

[Shawn Romstrom]

And we know Pam Bondi came out and said that Mangione will be facing the death penalty in this federal case, is that right?

[Sean Fleming]

So she has directed prosecutors in New York City to seek the death penalty.

[Shawn Romstrom]

Bondi calling the killing a premeditated cold.

[Samantha Max]

Blooded assassination and an act of political violence.

[Shawn Romstrom]

If there was ever a death case, this is one. This guy is charged with hunting down a CEO, a father of two, a married man, hunting him down and executing him.

[Sean Fleming]

I mean, this whole case is a bit unprecedented. And as we have seen with several other federal cases since the Trump administration has taken office, they're not exactly always following the typical protocols. Mangione's attorneys have filed papers challenging this request to seek the death penalty, calling out Pam Bondi for putting out this press release where they said that, you know, she didn't make it clear enough that these are only allegations that he is presumed innocent. And actually in the government's response, they were saying, well, it's way too early for the defense to be, you know, making a stink about the fact that there's this directive to seek the death penalty, because we haven't even sought it yet. We haven't even indicted him yet. But of course, none of that would have been happening if it weren't for the Attorney General putting out this press release, also making an Instagram post saying that she wants the death penalty for Mangione.

[Shawn Romstrom]

What was the Instagram post like? I'm afraid I missed it.

[Sean Fleming]

It's like, like a pull quote from. Yeah, from the press release. But then she actually went on Fox News and she was saying I was.

[Shawn Romstrom]

Receiving death threats for seeking the death penalty on someone who is charged with an execution of a CEO. We're going to continue to do the right thing. We're not going to be deterred. The President's directive was very clear. We are to seek the death penalty when possible. Is the state of New York taking issue with the call for the death penalty? Because I believe in New York State, they do not execute prisoners anymore.

[Sean Fleming]

Yeah, well, the state actually, I mean, they have no say really, on what punishment the federal government does or doesn't seek. You know, the federal government, they're going by federal law, and they can do what they want. And even the crimes that Mangione is accused of are pretty different from one to the other. In the state case, he's facing murder charges and actually terrorism charges. In the federal case, he's facing stalking charges, charges that he stalked this health care executive across state lines and killed him. So it's two different theories here. New York State does not seek the death penalty anymore. In its state cases. The highest court in New York has found that it is against the state's constitution. But in federal law, the death penalty is still allowed. It is still sought. I actually covered a federal death penalty case here in New York City brought by the same prosecutor's office that was for a man named Seiful Osipov a few years ago. At least eight people are dead and 11 more injured after that pickup truck.

[Shawn Romstrom]

Plowed through a busy bicycle path along.

[Sean Fleming]

The west side Highway.

[Shawn Romstrom]

Prosecutors say Seifalo Saipov smiled while talking to investigators and even asked to fly an ISIS flag in his hospital room after allegedly using his truck as a weapon to mow down people on a bike path in 2017, allegedly telling investigators his goal was to kill as many people as possible in order to become a member of isis.

[Sean Fleming]

In that case, he was convicted. But there was this separate part of the trial where a jury then had to decide whether to give him the death penalty. And it has to be a unanimous decision. It's this whole long process. And in the end, they could not come to a unanimous decision to give him the death penalty. So he was instead sentenced to life in a federal prison.

[Shawn Romstrom]

And this was a mass murderer with fealty to ISIS that a jury could not decide to put to death. Does that mean it's not very likely that Luigi Mangione, an alleged murderer who killed allegedly one person who's received unprecedented amounts of letters and has a fan club showing up to court whenever he might be there, who's on the face of votive candles. Does that make it much less likely that. That a New York jury is going to put him to death, or does that remain to be seen?

[Sean Fleming]

I mean, I think that's a really good question. In Saipov's case, that was an incredibly emotional trial. You had the loved ones of people who had been killed testifying, talking about just the tragic loss of. Of their family members and friends. You actually had surviving victims that were testifying about these horrible injuries and Traumas that were lingering. And even after all of that, that jury decided, we are not going to put this person to death. So for someone like Mangione, you know, I could only imagine what it would be like for a jury to be making that type of decision. As you've said, he has garnered so much public support. The Ivy League grad has received an outpouring of support and hundreds of thousands in donations to his legal fund. The Manhattan DA called anybody who supports Luigi extreme activists and a lawless mob. Very strong words coming out of the Manhattan DA. Just because we're tired of being bullied.

[Shawn Romstrom]

By CEOs, are we supposed to hate this guy? Just ask for a jury trial, Luigi. Ask for a jury trial. It's like, everyone's behind you, bro. Except for the overlords. Except for the CEOs, obviously.

[Sean Fleming]

Though, of course, a few things. I mean, one, this is one of these cases where it's always the question of how much is what's on the Internet real life. And just because our perception of, you know, public opinion might be one thing, because of how things are playing out on the Internet, we don't know what it would be like for a jury, which, first of all, juries aren't always totally representative of society. It's, you know, it's a very particular group of people that is available to come to jury service and able to sit on what would likely be a very lengthy trial. But also, if this case does eventually go to trial, if there is eventually a death penalty phase, that will be a long time from now. These cases are very complex. They take a long time to get through all of the investigating, building the case, putting everything together. So we don't know how public sentiment will change between then and now.

[Shawn Romstrom]

You can follow Samantha Max's coverage of luigi [e-mail] Last year, Mangioni went on Goodreads to leave a review. He wrote. It's easy to quickly write this off as the manifesto of a lunatic in order to avoid facing some of the uncomfortable problems it identifies. But it's simply impossible to ignore how prescient many of his predictions about modern society turned out. He was writing about the Unabomber's manifesto, and we are going to talk about the enduring influence of that text when we return on Today. Explained.

[Sean Fleming]

How do you navigate an entire career change after losing everything? This week on Net Worth and Chill, I'm chatting with Lewis Howes, the host of the School of Greatness podcast. With over 5,500 million downloads, Lewis went from rising professional athlete to broke after a career ending injury.

[Samantha Max]

I believe self doubt is the killer of dreams.

[Shawn Romstrom]

When we doubt ourselves, we are. It doesn't matter how talented or smart you are, you're going to limit yourself on what you're able to do.

[Sean Fleming]

But that was just the beginning of his story. It's an episode packed with raw honesty and failure, practical advice for career pivots, and the financial wisdom that comes from losing it all and rebuilding it.

[Shawn Romstrom]

Listen wherever you get your podcasts or.

[Sean Fleming]

Watch on YouTube.com YourRichBFF hi folks, this is Kara Swisher.

[Shawn Romstrom]

This week on my podcast on with Kara Swisher, I'm speaking with philanthropist, businesswoman and women's rights advocate Melinda French Gates.

[Sean Fleming]

On how she's refocused after her divorce.

[Shawn Romstrom]

From tech mogul Bill Gates. We talk about why investing in women in politics and business is playing the long and smart game, and we discuss her new memoir the Next Day.

[Samantha Max]

My mom used to say to me as I was growing up, set your.

[Sean Fleming]

Own agenda or someone else will.

[Shawn Romstrom]

I know society is better off when women are in positions of power. I really enjoy this conversation because it's an interesting moment where women in technology are having much more of an important impact than men, who are still moving.

[Sean Fleming]

Fast and breaking things.

[Shawn Romstrom]

Have a listen to on with Kara.

[Sean Fleming]

Swisher wherever you get your podcasts.

[Shawn Romstrom]

25 years ago, McDonald's restaurants across the.

[Sean Fleming]

Country were being robbed by a masked.

[Shawn Romstrom]

Man who always entered through the roof and was always polite. He was a gentleman, going so far as to use ma'am, sir.

[Samantha Max]

And I didn't know whether to laugh or to be scared because, you know, you see in the movies, robberies are not like that.

[Shawn Romstrom]

I'm Phoebe Judge. Listen to part one of the Roofman.

[Sean Fleming]

Right now on Criminal and listen to.

[Shawn Romstrom]

Part two early by becoming a member of Criminal plus, you're listening to Today Explained.

[Samantha Max]

So I stumbled across it on this reading list and I put it aside to read on the weekend. And I expected to be kind of perversely amused by the insane conspiratorial ravings of a madman. Like an anti tech Charles Manson, I suppose. And then I read it and what struck me is how unconspiratorial it was. Kaczynski doesn't think there's an evil cabal of technocrats plotting to oppress us all. His entire worldview is evolutionary. And so I thought, this is interesting. As political theory, it's extremely radical and there's a lot I disagree with. But as a historian of political ideas, I thought it would make an interesting side project. And then it took on a life of its own.

[Shawn Romstrom]

Sean Fleming is a research fellow at the University of Nottingham. Lately he's been doing research on industrial society and its future by one Theodore Kaczynski. He's better known as the Unabomber. The text is better known as the Unabomber's manifesto. We reached out to him to ask how it may have influenced Luigi Mangione.

[Samantha Max]

Well, I guess I want to be careful what I say about the relationship between Mangione and Kaczynski, and also what I say about Mangione in general. He hasn't been convicted of anything yet, and I haven't seen any hard evidence that Mangione was inspired by Kaczynski. But there are some interesting parallels. So assassinating corporate executives to create a media spectacle is straight out of the Unabomber's playbook. The assassin of Brian Thompson also left some engravings on the shell casings, which reminds me of the engravings that Kaczynski left on the components of his bombs. And more generally, Kaczynski and Mangione are both disaffected overachievers with backgrounds in STEM fields. So whether or not Mangione was actually inspired by Kaczynski, he's precisely the sort of person who's likely to find the Unabomber's ideology compelling.

[Shawn Romstrom]

For those who don't remember, who was he, what did he do, and how did people come to know him?

[Samantha Max]

Ted Kaczynski was born in Chicago in 1942, and he started out as a child prodigy in mathematics. He went to Harvard at the age of 16, and then he went on to do a PhD in mathematics at the University of Michigan. He was then hired as an assistant professor in math at Berkeley, and at that time, he was the youngest in the institution's history. But after two years at Berkeley, he abruptly resigned. And after a little while, he bought himself a piece of land outside Lincoln, Montana, where he built himself a one room cabin, 10ft by 12ft, with no electricity or running water. And from there, he launched his one man war against modern technology.

[Shawn Romstrom]

Another bombing is making the news tonight.

[Samantha Max]

The one time mathematics prodigy played a.

[Shawn Romstrom]

Deadly cat and mouse game with the.

[Sean Fleming]

FBI in a nationwide bombing campaign that stretched nearly two decades.

[Samantha Max]

So the reason we're still talking about Kaczynski is that he managed to blackmail the media into publishing his writings. So in April 1995, he sent a letter to the New York Times promising that he would stop bombing if his 35,000 word essay titled Industrial Society and its future were published in the Times or some other major newspaper. So the manifesto was published in the Washington Post on September 19, 1995, which.

[Shawn Romstrom]

I think is hard to imagine today, but hundreds of thousands of Americans were mailed. A terrorist's manifesto.

[Samantha Max]

Yes, that's right. Without exaggeration, it might be one of the most read manifestos since the Communist Manifesto. It was soon after published in paperback. It was also uploaded to Time Warner's Pathfinder platform. So it became what might be the first ever Internet manifesto. And it's set the template for the manifestos that have become all too common in the aftermath of violent attacks.

[Shawn Romstrom]

And it's very readable. It's, it's, it's got this sort of numbered format where the whole thing is broken down into categories with these sort of points made in every category. It's, it's not the hardest read in the world. It isn't the scrawlings of a madman, it's the ordered philosophy of a terrorist. He writes that we aren't the first to mention that the world today seems to be going crazy. This sort of thing is not normal for human societies. There is good reason to believe that primitive man suffered from less stress and frustration and was better satisfied with his way of life than modern man is. I think a lot of people could find some truth in that statement. What was he trying to get across with this manifesto?

[Samantha Max]

In the passage you've just quoted, what he's arguing is basically that human beings are biologically maladapted to the modern world. This is a big claim from evolutionary psychology. The argument is that biologically speaking, we're still Stone Age hunter gatherers. We evolved hunting large animals on the savanna, and in the span of just 10,000 years, a blink in evolutionary time, we've constructed this world of concrete, steel and screens. So Kaczynski argues that because of this we suffer from depression, anxiety, eating disorders, substance abuse, and so many other psychological pathologies that so called primitive human beings do not.

[Shawn Romstrom]

And what's his solution?

[Samantha Max]

His solution is to destroy all modern technology and return ourselves to a more primitive condition to crash out of the modern world. So basically what he envisions is a group of anti tech revolutionaries sabotaging the electric grid, blowing up the gas pipelines, attacking the nervous system, so to speak, of modern society and plunging us back into, if not the Stone Age, then something like small scale agriculture and a shepherd society.

[Shawn Romstrom]

How was this manifesto received in the 90s when it was published by the Washington Post and delivered to Front Porches around the country?

[Samantha Max]

Well, there was a lot of debate about it, but overall, the reception of the manifesto was shockingly sympathetic. Many journalists treated Kaczynski as a serious intellectual, and many members of the public, in letters to the editor and on talk radio shows, hailed him as a folk hero.

[Shawn Romstrom]

Wow.

[Samantha Max]

He was often described as a modern day thoreau. So from 1995 through about 1997, he was hailed as this philosopher of the counterculture. But then in 1998, during his legal proceedings, a psychiatrist labeled him a paranoid schizophrenic and portrayed his ideology as a sort of bundle of delusions. And the media took her word for it, and so did the public to a large extent. So Kaczynski fell out of fashion from the late 90s until the early 2010s. But then he was rediscovered as concerns about climate change, artificial intelligence, and the consequences of digital immersion became so much more salient. And his warnings about the negative consequences of modern technology began to seem prophetic to many people. So there's been a Unabomber revival.

[Shawn Romstrom]

So who are the types of people who are glomming on to this manifesto?

[Samantha Max]

This too has changed significantly over time. So during the Unabomber mania of the mid-1990s, Kaczynski gained a following on the radical left, especially among green anarchists. But he's returned to cultural prominence with the opposite political valence. So today he's seen more as a figure of the right. As you may have noticed, he spends the first 3,000 words of his manifesto railing against leftism. And in the context of the culture war in the 2010s, conservatives rediscovered him and rehabilitated him and co opted him onto their side in the culture war. So Kaczynski has now been appropriated by neo Nazis, eco fascists, far right accelerationists, a rag bag of people on the right who are drawn to his critique of leftism.

[Shawn Romstrom]

Which is so interesting because Luigi Mangioni has been hailed as something of a hero on the left right. How is it that Kaczynski appeals to a figure like Mangione, but also neo Nazis?

[Samantha Max]

What makes Kaczynski appealing to so many different sorts of radicals is that he defies easy categorization. And this makes his ideology sort of like an a la carte menu of ideas. So different radicals and reactionaries latch on to different aspects of his ideology. So, for instance, green anarchists were enthralled with his critique of technology, while neo Nazis, generally speaking, ignore the critique of technology and focus solely on the critique of leftism.

[Shawn Romstrom]

This man ultimately is advocating for murder, if not mass murder, to achieve his aims. Does he ever show any remorse for that?

[Samantha Max]

No, he doesn't. He doesn't show any remorse for the people he killed in his bombings. He says they're not innocent. At one point, he says, the people who are responsible for the advancement of technology are worse than Stalin, worse than Hitler. What they're doing to humanity is even more grotesque, he says. But he does acknowledge that his anti tech revolution would kill millions, if not billions of people. This is an extremely apocalyptic vision.

[Shawn Romstrom]

And even though his vision is apocalyptic, it was hugely influential and continues to be significantly influential.

[Samantha Max]

Many people read the manifesto and think, well, that's a good point, that's an interesting insight. But when he starts talking about revolution, it's so omnicidal that it's impossible for most of us to take seriously. Many people accept the argument up until the point where he suggests that we should blow up the electric grid and knock ourselves back to the stone Age. In other words, many people accept parts of his diagnosis of the problems with the modern world, but they're completely unwilling to take his prescription seriously. In the 90s, he looked like a one off. He could easily be dismissed as an isolated crank with a sort of idiosyncratic ideology. But in the 2020s, it looks like the world's caught up with him. And I think as concerns about the negative consequences of modern technology become especially acute, I think it will become increasingly likely that others will follow in Kaczynski's footsteps.

[Shawn Romstrom]

Sean Fleming, University of Nottingham, famous for its sheriff Hadi Miwagdi, made our show today. Jolie Meyers edited Laura Bullard fact checked. Patrick Boyd and Andrea Christensdotter mixed this today. Expl.