Jonathan L. Fisher (2:17)

Kennedy center is the national arts center in Washington that sits on the banks of the Potomac. It opened in the early 70s, but it's an idea from the Eisenhower era to have a national arts center to sort of fulf the democratic role of culture. The idea was born that in Washington

Philip Kennecott (2:35)

there should be a center of culture

Jonathan L. Fisher (2:38)

to provide a setting for the best performers in the world, to bring together Washingtonians of all political stripes.

Philip Kennecott (2:45)

It would be sort of a artistic mecca indeed, that would be open to visitors from every land.

Jonathan L. Fisher (2:53)

It had this. This lofty mission, as well as, you know, being a place to go see a show.

Sean Ramis (2:58)

And for decades, presidents from the left and the right have left it alone, including our current president, at least in his first term. It almost seems like he. When he won reelection, he sat down, he said, like, what are all the things I should have done the first time that I didn't do that I can do now? Like, let me rename the United States Institute of Peace and let me put my name on the Kennedy center and really make it mine.

Jonathan L. Fisher (3:25)

Yeah.

Sean Ramis (3:25)

How did he start doing this? What were his first implementations over at the Kennedy Center?

Jonathan L. Fisher (3:32)

Yeah, I mean, I think the thing to know is that it wasn't just a brute force takeover of the Kennedy

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center

Jonathan L. Fisher (3:39)

because the President has this role where he appoints members of the Kennedy center board. They concluded that he could fire members of the Kennedy center board. So what he ended up announcing in February was that he was giving notice to essentially members of the Kennedy center board who had been appointed by other presidents. What that mostly meant was he was firing board members who had been appointed

Sean Ramis (3:59)

by Joe Biden and replacing them with lackeys.

Jonathan L. Fisher (4:03)

You could say that. You could say members of his administration, people connected to the administration, people who could be trusted to vote the way that he wanted them to vote. And sure enough, you know, several days after he makes this announcement, that's what they come and do. They appoint Trump the Chairman of the board. Yay. The board is a very distinguished board,

Philip Kennecott (4:18)

most distinguished people in the country.

Jonathan L. Fisher (4:20)

So he is now the chair of the Kennedy center, the first president to have that role. And then, number two, they get rid of Deborah Rutter, who is the. Who is the chief of the Kennedy center, and replace her with Rick Cornell, who's a Trump loyalist, the former ambassador to Germany, who had reportedly been hoping to be Secretary of State in the second administration. Instead, they have him, in addition to some other roles, be in charge of the Kennedy Center.

Sean Ramis (4:45)

First of all, how great is it

Jonathan L. Fisher (4:48)

to have a president who actually cares

Philip Kennecott (4:50)

about the art center?

Jonathan L. Fisher (4:54)

The first thing that happens is actually something that happens to them, not that they do artists walk. So I think a lot of artists are immediately offended by this takeover, particularly ones with a connection to Deborah Rutter. Ben Folds, the pianist and singer, songwriter,

Philip Kennecott (5:10)

Give me my money back.

Sean Ramis (5:12)

Give me my money back.

Jonathan L. Fisher (5:14)

Quits his job as an artistic advisor. Renee Fleming, the famous opera singer, also an advisor, she quits. You know, well known performers who have dates at the center like, like Issa Rae, they pull dates in her case, citing the Trump takeover. And then maybe the most notable early one was Hamilton.

Sean Ramis (5:34)

The price of my love's not a price that you're willing to pay.

Jonathan L. Fisher (5:40)

Hamilton pulls out from a 2026 run at the center.

Sean Ramis (5:43)

Alexander Hamilton himself pulls out.

Jonathan L. Fisher (5:45)

Yes. Hamilton himself revives himself from the dead and says, I will not go to the Candy Center.

Sean Ramis (5:52)

Hey, I have not been shy. I am just a guy in the

Jonathan L. Fisher (5:55)

public eye trying to do my best for our republic.

Sean Ramis (5:57)

I don't want to fight, but I won't apologize for doing what's right.

Jonathan L. Fisher (6:01)

It becomes pretty clear quickly that there will be revenue problems. It's clear that subscription sales are low, ticket sales are way down. And then if you ask people who work at the center, they say it's an audience boycott that. You know, audiences are offended by Trump's role in this typically nonpartisan art center, and they just want nothing to do with it. So they just, they're just not buying tickets.

Sean Ramis (6:21)

With all these events being canceled, are Trump and Grinnell finding new events to take their place?

Jonathan L. Fisher (6:29)

Grinnell and his staff are booking some, you know, some, some slightly unusual bookings, you know. Now the Kennedy center is always a rental venue. Its theaters are always available for a performer who just, who wants to book it. But the sort of character of the Kennedy center programming as well as these rentals, it does appear to be changing. You know, there's a handful of, like, explicitly Christian events that, that occur that feels pret, you know, cpac, there's a number of events booked by foreign governments or involving foreign governments, which is also unusual. You know, the week that MBS from Saudi Arabia visits the White House, they have a Saudi investment conference at the Kennedy center.

Philip Kennecott (7:05)

And it's great to be here today at the US Saudi Investment Forum. Great group of people. The biggest. You got the biggest in the room.

Jonathan L. Fisher (7:14)

You know, I think most significantly, FIFA host the World cup draw at the Kennedy Center. It was originally set to be in Vegas, and Trump Reportedly insisted on having it at the Kennedy center.

Sean Ramis (7:25)

And that's where he gets the FIFA Peace Prize.

Jonathan L. Fisher (7:28)

Indeed. Well, thank you very much.

Philip Kennecott (7:31)

This is truly one of the great

Jonathan L. Fisher (7:32)

honors of my life before the war he started. Yeah. So, yeah, these are all different. And then you also have a Kennedy Center Honors that he himself has had a role in picking the honorees for,

Sean Ramis (7:44)

which is different than what usually happens.

Jonathan L. Fisher (7:48)

Yes. I mean, yes. There has never been a time where the President of the United States has picked who is appearing at the Kennedy Center Honors. That's true.

Sean Ramis (7:56)

Who does he pick?

Jonathan L. Fisher (7:57)

He picks Sylvester Stallone.

Sean Ramis (8:00)

You.

Philip Kennecott (8:00)

Ancient.

Sean Ramis (8:01)

Ancient.

Jonathan L. Fisher (8:04)

Who is a friend of his. Also, you know, well known as someone whose views are generally on the right. He picks George Strait.

Sean Ramis (8:12)

All my exes live in Texas.

Jonathan L. Fisher (8:16)

You know, the well known country singer, you know, whose politics are more circumspect, but you can sort of see the connection. Kiss. Who are, I guess, like the President, a very loud product of the 1970s. Wanna rock and roll up. He also picks Michael Crawford, the Broadway singer and performer who originated the role of the Phantom of the opera in the 1980s.

Sean Ramis (8:42)

My music.

Jonathan L. Fisher (8:46)

TRUMP loves the Phantom of the Opera and anything by Andrew Lloyd Webber. And then. And then finally Gloria Gaynor, the I Will Survive singer, which, you know, you might say is an unusual choice. I Will Survive is, you know, become this LGBTQ anthem. You know, apparently she is. She's also a Republican donor these days. I don't know the connection. And it also just could be that, you know, she's. Again, she's a very famous person from Trump's heyday. So that maybe that's. That's enough. Okay.

Sean Ramis (9:13)

Now, it's around this time, I believe, where we start to see real issues with some of the institutions that are permanent fixtures at the Kennedy Center. Is that right?

Jonathan L. Fisher (9:25)

Yeah, that's right. The first one is the Washington National Opera. In the fall. The artistic director of the opera sort of muses in an interview with the Guardian that they might have to leave. You know, she's talking about the new requirements at the center that essentially every. Every piece of programming that's put on be paid for by ticket sales or corporate underwriting. And this is, you know, at odds with the basic model of. Of opera, which is, you know, a fantastically expensive art form that, you know, generally has a revenue shortfall. This is true everywhere. Is generally made up for by donors and involves planning, planning. Several years ahead. By early this year, the opera board votes that they're leaving the Kennedy Center. The flip side of this is the National Symphony Orchestra, which is sticking around. You know, both of these institutions have financial relationships with the center. And it's pretty clear that, you know, the orchestra probably couldn't survive without a subsidy from the center. You know, at the same time, it is. It is a little awkward for them to be there. You know, they. Grinnell insists that they play the National Anth. Every night, which, you know, I mean, it is a nice piece of music. It's a little sort of classic. You could say it's a bit much. But, you know, there are things like that.

Sean Ramis (10:51)

The programming stuff is pretty serious. But then when you get to the renovation stuff, it feels existential because Donald Trump wants to overhaul this landmark, this national landmark, and to do it, he wants to shut it down, which feels like the blow of all blows. What is wrong with the Kennedy Center? Is there something wrong with it? Does it need renovations?

Jonathan L. Fisher (11:19)

It definitely needs renovations. It has leaks. It has mice. There's outdated sound and stage equipment. So I think if you talk to people who work there, no one disputes that there are issues. I think what is at dispute is whether you need to shut down the entire thing to do it right. And that's what Trump says. To do it right, you have to shut it down. I think the view of people who work there is that you don't need to do that. You could shut down 1 has three main large performance spaces. You could shut down one, work in that, then shut down another and move on. You could do it gradually over several years. But to shut down the whole thing, especially with no notice, because that creates a big problem logistically for the orchestra as well as Broadway tours and so on. So to do it without no notice, I think they feel people who work there feel that there must be some other motivation.

Sean Ramis (12:09)

Like what?

Jonathan L. Fisher (12:10)

One version of the story is that the revenue is so bad, the incessant negative headlines are so pervasive, that they just want to shut all that down and just focus on the building. Another theory is that, and I think Trump has probably gotten close to saying this, he wants it to reopen within his term. So maybe if you do a slower renovation, you can't do that. If you shut down the whole thing, you can do in two years. Of course, then there's the most apocalyptic theory, which is that he's going to knock down the whole thing. For some reason, I'm a little skeptical of that one. I mean, now, granted, he's knocked some things down with no notice, but I'm a little skeptical of that one just because. Including his own house yes, yes. He posted some renderings. They looked pretty similar to the building as it stands today. As far as I know, the funding is funding that was appropriated for renovation by Congress last year. It's more than $200 million, which is not enough money to build a new Kennedy Center. They probably do plan to just do a renovation. Even already they just by painting the columns, they sort of have already changed the visual effect of the Kennedy Center. You know, they used to be this bronze color, now they are white. So I think, you know, he's already sort of he has already applied his taste to the Kennedy center and therefore he has made this change to the lovely cityscape of federal Washington, of the monumental core.

Sean Ramis (13:46)

You can read Jonathan l. Fisher@theatlantic.com the President wants to do a lot more to the monumental core of the nation's capital. He's coming in like a wrecking ball when Today Explained continues.

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Philip Kennecott (17:09)

Trump came in like a wrecking ball

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today.

Sean Ramis (17:14)

Explain is back. We're here now with Philip Kennecott, who's the architecture critic at the Washington Post, also writes about culture. Philip, you recently published a column about Donald Trump's changes to Washington D, in which you make a very bold argument. You say that Trump is the most significant threat to the city's architecture and design since the city was burned down by the British in the War of 1812. Tell us how you justify that argument.

Philip Kennecott (17:44)

That sounds like hyperbole maybe, but you know, in fact, he really is turning out to be an amazingly influential force in terms of the design of the city. War of 1812 the British come through and they burned the White House and they burned the Capitol and they have to be rebuilt. Donald Trump has torn down the east wing of the White House and he's making major changes, major additions. He's taken out the Rose Garden at the White House. He wants to build a new giant memorial sort of triumphal arch at Arlington Cemetery. He's talking about a garden of national heroes that would really change the kind of sylvan landscape along the Potomac River. It goes on and on and and more important even than those changes is the fact that he wants to change how Washington manages change. He really wants to kind of force this through by personal fiat rather than go through a long standing process of design review, which has been absolutely essential to keeping Washington the city we know today.

Sean Ramis (18:43)

And I think essential to the argument you're making here is that D.C. isn't New York. It isn't a city that was slowly built over time that progressed and evolved at the times. The intention behind Washington D.C. sets it apart.

Philip Kennecott (19:02)

Yes, it begins as a planned city. Very few American cities begin with a plan. A designer named Pierre l' Enfant created what was called the l' Enfant Plan. And that was to take a typical city grid of streets, ones that run north, south and east, west of big boxes that were generally for the neighborhoods, for commerce, for the daily stuff of life, and then lay over them these sweeping avenues that connect important civic notable. Maybe there's a statue there, maybe that's where the Capitol or the White House is. And these create a much sort of grander architecture. And in some ways the vistas of these avenues stand in for the ambition of the country, a sense of being far seeing. And Washington has done an awful lot over the years to preserve that. Among the most basic things is we didn't build skyscrapers, we've kept a very low slung skyline. And one of Trump's changes, which is this giant 250 foot tall memorial Arch, would actually be one of the very tallest buildings in Washington and would fundamentally change that skyline.

Sean Ramis (20:06)

You really clearly, I mean, including using visuals, lay out why this arch in particular feels like a violation of so much intentional design. Could you maybe for our audience, explain what you mean?

Philip Kennecott (20:24)

Well, there are a number of things. First of all, America has fought a lot of wars and they have not all necessarily been great wars. But in general we have a sense that we don't brag about victory, that victory is not something to be celebrated because wars are an unfortunate, necessary thing. From time to time, Victory Arch seems to come out of a different language, a different vocabulary for monuments. There isn't one in Washington. They've made sort of temporary ones for parades. But to create this giant monument, one is to be in a slightly more celebratory mode when it comes to military power. But the really quite striking thing about the arch is that they're going to place it in a way that will block views to Arlington Cemetery. There's a larger story here, and it's a little complicated, but basically when Washington is redesigned in the beginning of the 20th century, it's done to be a giant symbol of reconciliation and national unity after the Civil War. So you have at the base of the Capitol a monument to Ulysses S. Grant, who's the military architect of victory in the Civil War. And then a long vista of two miles to the Lincoln Memorial, where we honor the political architect of the war. And then there's a bridge over to Arlington Cemetery, where the people who gave their lives in war rest. And this arch is going to be placed right in front of that view out to the cemetery. It's going to fundamentally change the sense of it, and it's going to going to change the sort of serenity and dignity of the approach to Arlington Cemetery.

Sean Ramis (22:07)

The President must have some appreciation for what you just explained, for the sanctity of this cemetery, for the layout of DC Otherwise he probably wouldn't want to plant this arch right in the middle of the sort of transition from the Lincoln Memorial and the National Mall to the Memorial Bridge to Arlington National Cemetery. Do you think in his vision here, this arch is a part of the whole?

Philip Kennecott (22:34)

I really don't think that he is thinking that deeply about it. In the article I wrote for the Washington Post, I was trying to lay out, as best I could what we can say about Donald Trump's aesthetic impulses from what we've seen him do, especially in this second term. And really, frankly, he's drawn to a couple things. One, he likes big things. He likes things that he's seen in other places. Like, you know, he went to Paris and he saw an arch there, and so he wants one here, and he wants it to be the biggest. This one is going to blow him all away. The one that people know mostly is the Arc de Triomphe in Paris, France.

Jonathan L. Fisher (23:10)

And we're going to top it by,

Philip Kennecott (23:12)

I think, a lot. He doesn't like open or quiet or empty things. He's always trying to fill in stuff. So you see him just cover the Oval Office walls with this kind of anachronistic ornament. It makes no sense in terms of the design of the building or the history of the building, but he fills stuff in. I don't think he's actually aware of the symbolism of Washington, and I don't think he's much in sympathy with the fundamental sense of humility, serenity and dignity that was part of the aesthetics of the original architects of Washington, going all the way back, coming out of the Enlightenment, coming out of the 18th century. I don't think it gets. I think he's attracted to the glitter.

Sean Ramis (23:57)

Is it possible that much of the American public is, too? I mean, they voted this president into office twice. His hotels in New York are tourist attraction people, I guess, around the world, go to his golf courses. If he plants an arch on the edge of Virginia, in front of Arlington National Cemetery, behind the Lincoln Memorial, is there a chance that people end up loving it the way they ended up loving the Statue of Liberty and the Eiffel Tower, even though they might not have been clear winds when they were initially built?

Philip Kennecott (24:31)

Yeah, that's a really interesting question. I wrestle with that all the time. And one of the things that's disturbing to me is that the impulses and the instincts that Americans had about the sort of markers of monarchy, we used to be really allergic to that stuff. We used to really bristle at the idea of a president being in any way imperial or king. Like now I think there's less understanding of the connection between values and politics on one side and aesthetics and architecture on the other side. And so it's. In some ways, the story I'm writing is an attempt to introduce Americans to what is, in a sense, a hidden history and a hidden aesthetics in Washington that are very vital and very important. But you may not get that just by taking a quick tour on a double decker bus of the city, but it's there, and it was extremely important to the people who made Washington into the city that is, that is greatly beloved today.

Sean Ramis (25:30)

And if he has his way and he proves by making a new arch, by literally raising the East Wing of the White House and rebuilding it in his own vision, by fundamentally altering the Kennedy center, is he also suggesting to future presidents that you can have your way with this city and its monuments and its environs, and then thusly sort of creating some kind of, I don't know, aesthetic seesaw for the nation's capital?

Philip Kennecott (26:06)

Oh, I think it's more than just suggesting. I think he's laying out the roadmap. I mentioned at the beginning of our conversation that one of the real victims in all of this is the idea of design review. There are these groups in Washington, including one that goes back to 1910, that have the ability to come in and, and look over plans, and they're usually staffed by professional architects, professional designers, professional landscape artists. And they improve things, they look at things and they get into the nitty gritty and the detail. Trump has stacked those committees with his own people, including his 26 year old personal assistant, who, as far as I can tell, has no expertise in any of these questions. And they're basically just kind of rubber stamping these things. So that's a roadmap for any future president coming in. And if you want an unfortunate example, example you might think back to the days of ancient Rome, when new emperors would come in, and if they really didn't like their predecessor, they wouldn't just necessarily raise down the triumphal arch erected by their predecessor. They might even take the statues off and replace the heads with heads of their own. Their own symbolism, a kind of constant retrofitting of the symbolic landscape of Rome to represent the current person in power. And, you know, you can say, well, that's just politics. But that makes for a landscape that doesn't have the sort of historical gravitas and temporal lastingness that you would want and that we've had in Washington for a very long time. You know, a lot of people may have a vague image of Los Angeles in their mind or New York, but, you know, we see these pictures of Washington over and over and over again, and people feel a sense of ownership of the city, even if they don't necessarily live here. In fact, when Trump tore down the East Wing, that was the first sign that I detected that there was really broad engagement and to some degree, a lot of outrage about some decision that he had taken quite quickly and sort of forced through in that move fast and break things manner. That was the first time I really heard people saying, wait, wait, what's going on here? Is anybody going to push back against this?

Sean Ramis (28:25)

As previously mentioned, Philip Kennecott wrote, Trump is the biggest threat to DC's architectural splendor since War of 1812 for the Washington Post, and he meant it. Abishayartzi is visiting Washington next week. Get in line. Amina Al Saadi lives here. David Tadashore and Andrea Lopez Crusado, although don't it's today explained.