Khadija Goba (2:34)

Well, as your listeners probably know, this is the day that the discharge petition will be on the floor for a vote, which means every member of Congress in the House gets to vote on compelling the Justice Department to release files for Jeffrey Epstein. Right now, as I was walking into the Capitol, there were, I'd say, a couple of hundred reporters, bystanders outside listening to a press interview held by Representatives Ro Khanna and Thomas Massie and Marjorie Taylor Greene where they are featuring survivors of Jeffrey Epstein.

Jacob Shamsian (3:20)

We fought the President, the Attorney General, the FBI Director, the Speaker of the House and the Vice President to get this win. So today is Epstein Day on the Hill. The discharge position to release the Epstein files, or at least part of them, is the rarest thing in Washington these days. Bipartisan, as you mentioned, this rarely happens. And part of the reason it's happening in this case is because it seems like an instance of Democrats and Republicans coming together. Can you tell me how, how that happened?

Khadija Goba (3:54)

Okay, so, and to be clear, there are two efforts that are, that are occurring right now to compel the DOJ to release files. They have essentially garnered three additional Republicans who happen to be women I want to point out to sign on to their discharge petition. And all of the Democrats have obviously signed on essentially to push the administration to release these files. Those three Republicans are Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene from Georgia.

Astad Herndon (4:28)

These women have fought the most horrific fight that no woman should have to fight.

Khadija Goba (4:34)

And they did it by banding together.

Astad Herndon (4:37)

And never giving up.

Khadija Goba (4:38)

Lauren Boebert from Colorado, of course we want answers.

Astad Herndon (4:42)

No one is satisfied with what has been received or lack thereof. No one is satisfied with the rollout of this.

Khadija Goba (4:50)

And Nancy Mace from South Carolina, this.

Unidentified Expert/Analyst (4:54)

Is really bigger than Jeffrey Epstein.

Astad Herndon (4:56)

This is a very symbolic vote to me for every woman and girl across the country who's been abused, that they represent us.

Khadija Goba (5:04)

All three of them have spoken about this being the right thing to do. And you know, Nancy Mace, she has had claims with sexual abuse herself and you know, she has made a point to say that. But I want to point out that this, three women, just three women signed on and there was even pressure from the administration for them to get off of it, but it didn't deter them.

Jacob Shamsian (5:32)

These are now MAGA lawmakers who are acting independently of Donald Trump. What do you think this reveals about the current state of his relationship to his own party, considering that as you mentioned, this is one of the rare instances of them pushing him.

Khadija Goba (5:47)

You know, Asette, it's hard to tell if there's any, if this is going to be a trend, to be honest with you. We saw the public display or fallout between Donald Trump and Marjorie Taylor Greene. I was called a traitor by a man that I fought for five, no.

Astad Herndon (6:08)

Actually six years for.

Khadija Goba (6:10)

I don't know if that's isolated. I am not totally convinced that people will just start doing discharge petitions or signaling that they wanna push back against the administration in a full throated way.

Jacob Shamsian (6:25)

This could be a singular issue.

Khadija Goba (6:27)

It could be I mean, the irony of all of this is that Trump came out the other day and said that he wanted members of Congress to support the measure Truth Social.

Unidentified Expert/Analyst (6:38)

House Republicans should vote to release the Epstein files because we have nothing to hide. And it's time to move on from this Democratic hoax perpetrated by the radical left lunatics in order to deflect the great success of the Republican Party.

Khadija Goba (6:54)

A lot of people think that that is probably has everything to do with him seeing the writing on the wall and acknowledging that, okay, this is going to be a big vote against what he has said or called a hoax.

Jacob Shamsian (7:07)

Right. So it's been reported as China Trump changing his mind and endorsing it. But what you're saying is this could largely be him getting ahead of something that was already inevitable considering the Republicans who were planning to vote for it.

Khadija Goba (7:18)

Yeah, like I said, the writing is on the wall instead.

Jacob Shamsian (7:21)

Okay, so what comes next? Does this mean that all of a sudden this trove of documents is gonna become public? No.

Khadija Goba (7:27)

So that is the tricky part. This needs to, because it is a bill, it needs to go to the Senate. And then, guess what? It needs to be signed by the President.

Jacob Shamsian (7:36)

The President who doesn't necessarily love the idea.

Khadija Goba (7:39)

Right. But again, now he's on the. So now it'll be up to him. Well, first of all, they need to get it through the Senate. Senator Thune, the majority leader over there, has not indicated that he would do that, but we already see pressure building up. One senator wrote a letter compelling him. I think Lisa Murkowski, who's a Republican out of Alaska, she has said, kind of applauded the House and said they did a good job and she wants him to put the vote on the floor. So I think it probably will get there. However, the tricky part is when it gets to the President's desk, whether he, what he does, does he veto it or not? Thomas Massie in the House who authored the discharge petition, has said he wanted an overwhelming amount of support.

Jacob Shamsian (8:36)

I'm hoping to get a veto proof majority on this legislation.

Khadija Goba (8:39)

So in that event, if Trump does decide to veto it, it'll come back to the House and they'll have to basically override the veto.

Jacob Shamsian (8:51)

It also seems as if some of this is at the Justice Department's discretion. I saw Marjorie Taylor Greene mention how even if this petition goes through, it's still up to the Justice Department about how much of these files will be released. Is that right?

Khadija Goba (9:04)

That's exactly right.

Astad Herndon (9:05)

But the real test will be will the Department of Justice Release the files or will it all remain tied up and investigations?

Khadija Goba (9:14)

And remember, this is Trump's Justice Department, so his discretion is. Their discretion is essentially his discretion. So it's, you know, it's not clear what they'll do, what the timing is gonna look like on that as well. But I have to. I just wanna point out, you know, like I said, this separate effort, some of the more salacious things that have been coming out have come from the estate. And that is something that James Comer in the House Oversight has been engineering.

Jacob Shamsian (9:41)

We're in the process of uploading those.

Unidentified Expert/Analyst (9:43)

Documents for full trans so everyone in America can see those documents.

Jacob Shamsian (9:48)

So this might not be the only means of seeing the scope of these documents.

Khadija Goba (9:52)

No. James Comer has compelled the Justice Department, but he has also subpoenaed the estate, and the estate has some personal things, I imagine. I'm not. It's not clear if they were even ever turned over to the Justice Department. But we will see more information coming out of the estate as well, which should be helpful.

Jacob Shamsian (10:15)

You mentioned how rare it was to see any daylight between the Republican caucus and Congress and with the White House. And part of the reason that Trump acted here is because members of the GOP were pressured by their own base. Now, is this only happening with the Epstein files? Because on this show, we've covered other areas of disagreement within the MAGA orbit. I'm thinking about criticism of his action in Venezuela or criticism of his immigration policy respect to H1B visas. When you're covering Republicans in Congress, do you hear any riffs with the White House on other issues, or has that mostly been focused on the Epstein files?

Khadija Goba (10:53)

You know, it's a great question. I do wonder if this will spark or highlight more discrepancies between the MAGA base and Donald Trump. You know, recently there's been some pushback from Maga world about H1B visas. Right, which Trump is in support of.

Astad Herndon (11:14)

Does that mean the H1B visa thing will not be a big priority for your administration?

Unidentified Expert/Analyst (11:19)

Because if you want to raise wages.

Astad Herndon (11:20)

For American workers, you can't flood the country with tens of thousands or hundreds.

Unidentified Expert/Analyst (11:25)

Of thousands of foreign workers.

Astad Herndon (11:26)

Also do have to bring in talent when people don't. No, you don't.

Jacob Shamsian (11:31)

Trump needs to get out of his bubble and back on the ground listening.

Astad Herndon (11:34)

To the American people who elected him.

Jacob Shamsian (11:36)

To work for us. His H1B comments show how out of.

Khadija Goba (11:40)

Touch with the base he's become. So I do wonder if that will inflame some of those, you know, fractures in the party to, you know, compel regular voters or voters to become even louder because they saw this work. I don't know if that's the case, but there is a possibility, obviously that, you know, people will appreciate their power. And, you know, we could see MAGA voters compelling their lawmakers to do something on H1B visas, and who knows, a Democrat could another discharge petition on the floor. So it's kind of a wait and see game. But I do wonder if that will amplify other fractures in the party.

Jacob Shamsian (12:32)

When we're back. The Epstein files themselves. Already there's been a lot of important people getting named and blamed. Are we about to see more Foreign.

Astad Herndon (12:59)

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Unidentified Expert/Analyst (14:55)

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Jacob Shamsian (16:24)

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Unidentified Expert/Analyst (16:25)

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Astad Herndon (16:29)

Okay.

Jacob Shamsian (16:33)

So Today Explained is back. I'm Estad Herndon. We have Jacob Shamsian, a business insider here. He's been writing about Jeffrey Epstein since 2019, following every twist and turn, even beyond the halls of Congress. Last week the House Oversight Committee released a trove of documents from Jeffrey Epstein's estate. So what was in those files?

Unidentified Expert/Analyst (16:59)

So there's this email exchange between Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein. And this is at a time this 2008 and 2007 Florida investigation is in the past.

Astad Herndon (17:08)

Jeffrey Epstein went to jail just before.

Khadija Goba (17:10)

10 this morning he pleaded guilty in open court.

Astad Herndon (17:13)

He agreed to serve a total of 18 months in the Palm beach detention facility, 12 for felony solicitation of prostitutes and an additional for procuring persons under 18 for prostitution.

Unidentified Expert/Analyst (17:23)

He could have faced life in prison.

Astad Herndon (17:25)

For allegations with underage girls.

Unidentified Expert/Analyst (17:27)

But the prosecutor in the case, Alex.

Astad Herndon (17:29)

Acosta, struck a more lenient deal. He takes a non prosecution agreement and shuts.

Unidentified Expert/Analyst (17:35)

There are all these civil lawsuits from victims trying to overturn this agreement because they weren't informed of this. Like settlement and non prosecution agreements between Jeffrey Epstein and prosecutors.

Astad Herndon (17:45)

Epstein's victims, Jane Doe 1 and Jane Doe 2 allege federal prosecutors entered into an agreement without their knowledge and then covered it up until just days before Epstein entered his plea in court.

Unidentified Expert/Analyst (17:58)

Also at the same time, Virginia Jeffries starts speaking to media about her time with Epstein and the abuse that she endured.

Khadija Goba (18:04)

I was trafficked to other billionaires. I was trafficked to politicians, professors, even royalty.

Unidentified Expert/Analyst (18:14)

So Jeffrey Epstein is in the middle of this firestorm that, you know, is really just beginning. In this email to Maxwell, who's also under scrutiny, he refers to Trump as a dog who hasn't barked. Okay.

Khadija Goba (18:24)

This first email starts with an email from Jeffrey Epstein.

Astad Herndon (18:27)

On Saturday, April 2, 2011.

Jacob Shamsian (18:31)

He emails Ghislaine Maxwell saying, I want you to realize that that dog that.

Astad Herndon (18:36)

Hasn'T barked is Trump.

Unidentified Expert/Analyst (18:39)

What does that mean exactly? I don't know.

Jacob Shamsian (18:41)

The dog that hasn't barked. Interesting.

Unidentified Expert/Analyst (18:43)

And so, you know, a lot of people take that, as well as a couple other references to Trump in the emails to mean that maybe Trump knew something about what was going on, which Trump has, of course, denied.

Jacob Shamsian (18:56)

Over the weekend, we saw the Internet explode over a particular email that I want to ask you about. It came out in this latest trove, and I think it speaks to the vagueness that you're talking to specifically when it comes to Trump. Now, in this email, Jeffrey Epstein's brother told him to ask former Trump adviser Steve Bannon whether Russian President Vladimir Putin, quote, has the photos of Trump blowing Bubba. Now, I am sure you saw this on all the feeds this weekend with a lot of guesses about who or what that might mean.

Khadija Goba (19:30)

Have you guys heard about the Bubba theory? We have to talk about the Bubba email. Donald, Who's Bubba? I don't know. Yes, you do. It's Bill Clinton, right?

Jacob Shamsian (19:40)

Yes.

Khadija Goba (19:40)

And is it true that you blew on his saxophone, Little Diddy, about Bubba.

Jacob Shamsian (19:48)

And Trump, two political rivals that got it on when the lights were off? What do we know?

Unidentified Expert/Analyst (19:55)

Look, I don't know. If you look at other emails between Mark Epstein and Jeffrey Epstein, there are a lot of, like, trading memes. They're very jokey. I think a lot of people thought, does Bubba mean Bill Clinton? Because Bill Clinton is referred to as Bubba in other contexts with Jeffrey Epstein. I did ask Mark about this. Who is Bubba? What's going on here? And all he would tell me is that Bubba is not Bill Clinton.

Jacob Shamsian (20:17)

Jeffrey Epstein's brother clarified to you that he was not meaning Bill Clinton.

Unidentified Expert/Analyst (20:21)

Yes. In that email, he did not mean to suggest that Vladimir Puritan has photos of Donald Trump performing oral sex on Bill Clinton. But beyond that, he wouldn't explain what that remark was.

Astad Herndon (20:32)

I did not have sexual relations with.

Jacob Shamsian (20:36)

That President of the United States. This group of docs came from the estate, though, right? What does that mean in terms of the origin and what can we take away from that?

Unidentified Expert/Analyst (20:48)

Yeah, so I think that's a really important thing to remember. What the House Oversight Committee has been releasing over the past week and also before then, the months before, are stuff that they've subpoenaed from Jeffrey Epstein's estate. We, for example, got a copy of that infamous 2003 birthday book from the House Oversight Committee with a purported Trump letter.

Jacob Shamsian (21:06)

This weird, gross image of a woman.

Astad Herndon (21:09)

With Donald Trump's signature where the pubes would be.

Unidentified Expert/Analyst (21:12)

Trump is denied. I don't do drawings that originally came from the estate. But when people talk about the Epstein files, I mean, the definition of Epstein files has changed over the years, but they're generally referring to what the Justice Department has. The Justice Department, you know, when they arrested Epstein in 2019, they executed search warrants in his mansion in Manhattan and in the U.S. in his home in the U.S. virgin Islands.

Khadija Goba (21:36)

Today we announce the unsealing of sex trafficking charges against Jeffrey Epstein. The victims, all underage girls at the time of the alleged conduct, were given hundreds of dollars in cash after each.

Unidentified Expert/Analyst (21:49)

Encounter, either by Epstein or by one of Epstein's employees.

Astad Herndon (21:54)

His mansion on East 71st street was raided early Sunday morning as agents hauled out multiple bags of evidence from disgraced financier Jeffrey Epstein.

Unidentified Expert/Analyst (22:04)

They took, like, something like 70 electronic devices, iPads, phones, computers, hard drives, and they have all this stuff and that stuff that the Justice Department still has in its possession, we still haven't seen it. This discharge petition is about releasing those DOJ Epstein files. So, you know, the estate stuff is really interesting and really, really amazing, but it's, I think, nothing compared to what the DOJ has.

Jacob Shamsian (22:29)

So when we think about the Epstein files, are we talking about one set of documents from the DOJ or what? What is it to mean?

Unidentified Expert/Analyst (22:38)

The way I think about it, you know, this is stuff that episte and estate has. There's certainly these DOJ documents seized by the FBI. There might also be other documents the FBI has. For example, there's some victims who said that they've called the FBI as early as the 1980s or 1990s, talking about how they were abused by Jeffrey Epstein and they were ignored. So maybe there's sort of documents in the FBI showing how they screwed this up. There's certain underlying records related to investigation of Epstein's death. I've filed FOIA requests for all this stuff. I know some other journalists have filed FOIA requests, and I've gotten nothing. It looks like the House subpoenaed the DOJ and they've gotten nothing. And hopefully the DOJ will soon be releasing them.

Jacob Shamsian (23:21)

So we're not talking about one set of documents more so than an entire maybe treasure chest coming from different sources throughout the federal government agencies investigating this.

Unidentified Expert/Analyst (23:29)

Yeah, who knows, Maybe also intelligence agencies, the Federal Aviation agencies might have flight records. There's a ton of stuff.

Jacob Shamsian (23:37)

You know, the investigative reporter Julie K. Brown, who broke a lot of these Epstein stories, said recently that she thinks some of these leaks might be a message sent by Ghislaine Maxwell to show her leverage over President Trump, that these leaks might actually be coming from her.

Astad Herndon (23:52)

To be honest with you, I suspect they're coming from Maxwell's camp. And I do suspect that the whole thing that happened with Prince Andrew losing his titles, I suspect that that was a message that was coming from her camp saying, you know, we have this stuff, we have information.

Jacob Shamsian (24:14)

What do you make of that theory? Do you think that some of these leaks could be related to figures like Glenn trying to get their message out there?

Unidentified Expert/Analyst (24:22)

Sure. I'm not so sure about that. I mean, I respect Julia enormously. I talk to her about this stuff sometimes, and she obviously knows a lot. I don't know if that is what's happening. If the idea is like, Elon is sort of trying to send a message to Trump saying, I have info on you and you better pardon me or else. I mean, certainly this email that we just saw with the dog who hasn't barked, that came from the Epstein estate, right? I mean, is the Epstein estate working with Gila and Maxwell behind the scenes to facilitate this stuff? I don't really see it, but certainly Gila and Maxwell has been moved to a cushier prison. There's no doubt about that. There are a lot of reports that she's getting really good treatments. You know, is it about something that Guillen knows? You know, I don't know. That's. That. That's one of the big questions.

Jacob Shamsian (25:11)

You know, as we heard earlier in the show, Congress is likely to release more files. Well, what are we. Do we have any sense of expectation of what could be coming out in these files?

Unidentified Expert/Analyst (25:22)

I would expect to see more emails and text messages like the stuff that we've just seen now. I think I would be personally really interested in seeing a lot more financial records. We really don't have a great accounting. We know some pieces about how he made his money, the $630 million estate that he left with. And some internal JPMorgan documents we've seen in litigation show that his accounts had over a billion dollars in transactions. And that number is just enormous. Hard to wrap my head around. And I think sort of answering that first, how did that money get there and where did it go is really going to lead to the other answers.

Jacob Shamsian (26:03)

This moment obviously marks a pivot from Trump in the White House asking Republicans to support this discharge position. Do you think this will set a new narrative around the Epstein files? Can there be a. Is there ever a moment of a smoking gun or something that turns the page on this issue?

Unidentified Expert/Analyst (26:24)

To me, I think the whole idea of the DOJ releasing all these files, this is just an enormous amount of material. We're gonna see a lot of documents for a long time. Personally, I think this is sort of like a JFK assassination type thing, where we're just gonna be talking about this for decades. There's gonna be a ton of records people will go through for decades. People will come up with conspiracy theories and there'll be some more legitimate reporting. I just think this is just one of those things that's going to be sort of a big deal in American history.

Jacob Shamsian (26:58)

Jacob Shamsian of the Business Insider. Today's show was produced by Miles Bryan and Peter Balinon Rosen and edited by Miranda Kennedy. It was fact checked by Ariana Aspuru and Melissa Hirsch. And our engineers are Patrick Boyd and Adrienne Lilly. Hi, I'm Astad Hernton and this is Today Explained.