Trump’s ICE shakeup

Summary

Podcast Summary: Today, Explained – "Trump’s ICE Shakeup"

Date: November 4, 2025
Hosts: Estad Herndon, Andrew Prokop
Guest: Molly O’Toole (Immigration Journalist)

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Episode Overview

This episode examines President Trump’s recent shakeup at ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement), the import of more aggressive Border Patrol tactics into American cities, and the political, operational, and public opinion shifts around immigration enforcement. Through conversations with Vox’s Andrew Prokop and journalist Molly O’Toole, the episode interrogates both the changes in law enforcement strategy and how the American public is reacting to the aggressive new reality.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. What Happened at ICE?

[03:07–04:04]

• President Trump’s White House has initiated a significant leadership shakeup at ICE.
  • Several ICE field office leaders were removed or reassigned.
  • Border Patrol officials are being installed in their place.
• The administration believes ICE wasn't "aggressive enough" and that Border Patrol's "cowboy" approach–more improvisational and forceful–is needed within ICE.
  • Andrew Prokop: “They’re essentially trying to import [Border Patrol's] way of thinking and tactics into ICE, which has traditionally operated quite differently.” (04:04)

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2. ICE vs. Border Patrol: Philosophies and Tactics

[04:14–05:44]

• ICE typically targeted individuals or workplaces through planned operations.
• Border Patrol operates more spontaneously, searching for undocumented immigrants in a manner likened to “cowboys.”
  • Andrew Prokop: “Border Patrol…view themselves as patrolling a kind of chaotic, lawless area, just going out and looking for people who look suspicious…They have these more aggressive tactics…” (04:41)
• These aggressive Border Patrol tactics–including tear gas and street patrols–are now being rolled out in cities like Los Angeles and Chicago.

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3. White House Factions and the Political Calculus

[06:02–08:08]

• The internal debate is not between moderates and hardliners, but hardliners and “harder hardliners.”
  • Key Players:
    • Stephen Miller (Deputy White House Chief of Staff): Demands aggressive deportation quotas.
    • Kristi Noem (DHS Secretary) & Corey Lewandowski (acting as her chief): Implementing a new hardline regime.
    • Tom Homan (Border “Tsar”): Once prominent, now sidelined after scandal.
  • Andrew Prokop: “It’s basically a debate between the hardliners and the harder hardliners. There’s no squishy moderates around the Trump White House on this issue.” (06:02)
• The pivot comes after Miller, unsatisfied with ICE’s pace, pressed: “Why aren’t you going to Home Depot? Why aren’t you going to 7-11?” (08:08)

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4. Iconic Tactics and Media Optics

[09:48–11:57]

• CBP Officer Greg Bovino has become a symbol for this new enforcement wave, personally participating in aggressive actions (e.g., throwing tear gas at protesters), leading to daily check-ins with a federal judge.
  • Molly O'Toole: “When someone steps in the way, then that may not, again, that may not work out well for them…” (10:28)
  • Highly stylized videos of enforcement are used to stoke the MAGA base.
    • Molly O'Toole: “‘We’re here and we’re not going anywhere.’…They love the optics of this.” (11:41–11:57)
• The administration is betting these tough optics appeal to their supporters, even as they produce viral, controversial moments.

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5. Shifts in Public Opinion and the Political Narrative

[16:25–24:41]

• Molly O’Toole: Trump has shifted the national conversation about immigration hard to the right, painting all immigration as problematic.
  • “Now you just have all immigration bad, and there sort of is no ‘immigration good’…The Trump administration has been remarkably effective at sort of shifting the nature of the conversation.” (17:53)
• The Democratic Party’s lack of a clear, affirmative stance on immigration has allowed the Trump narrative to dominate.
• Polling reveals a paradox: Americans mostly want illegal immigration reduced but react negatively to the methods Trump is using.
  • Molly O’Toole: “Voters want deportations, but not like this.” (20:00)
• Recent Gallup data: In 2024, 55% wanted to restrict immigration; by 2025, only 30% did. This drop might reflect disillusionment with Trump’s tactics or a sense that the problem is “solved.”
  • Public opinion appears fluid and sensitive to high-profile enforcement actions.

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6. Political Strategy: Minority Rule and Intimidation

[24:15–26:41]

• Despite unpopularity, Trump’s strategy prioritizes energizing an impassioned minority and using media attention—positive or negative—to consolidate his base.
  • Molly O’Toole: “You can have a very impassioned vocal minority that can win an election, even if what they support is not necessarily what the majority…supports.” (25:00)
• The administration’s “intimidation” approach aims not just at immigrants, but at would-be protesters as well.
  • Molly O’Toole: “They want people to self-deport, they want people to be afraid…not just of immigrant communities…They want people to be afraid to protest, you know, they want people to be afraid to come out.” (26:31)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the ICE-Border Patrol power swap:

  • Estad Herndon: “So it seems as if in the power rankings of immigration enforcement, ICE is down and the Border Patrol is up, at least in the White House’s view.” (04:04)

• On Stephen Miller’s approach:

  • Andrew Prokop: “…he is just infamous… for in the first term and in this term, just constantly having meetings, calling up officials at agencies and chewing them out, saying, why aren’t you arresting enough people?” (06:13)

• On the shift in immigration perceptions:

  • Molly O’Toole: “Now you just have all immigration bad, and there sort of is no ‘immigration good’ sort of side of the ledger.” (17:53)

• On the administration’s logic:

  • Andrew Prokop: “They have this gut sense that if it’s between law enforcement and unauthorized immigrants, if it’s between law enforcement and left wing protesters, the public is ultimately going to side with law enforcement.” (11:57)

• On the political calculus:

  • Estad Herndon: “Your normal politics brain would say… isn’t that a bad thing to do? …But I think that what we saw in 2016 and …2024 is that that isn’t necessarily how you win elections.” (24:15)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:07: ICE shakeup explained
• 04:14: ICE vs. Border Patrol philosophies
• 06:02: The White House’s internal factions
• 08:08: Miller’s impatience triggers new enforcement phase
• 09:48: Chicago and LA raids; Gregory Bovino’s role
• 11:41: Why the administration loves Border Patrol optics
• 16:56: How public opinion has shifted and Trump’s narrative dominance
• 19:37: Polls show Americans disapprove of Trump’s immigration actions
• 22:08: Dramatic drop in support for restricting immigration
• 24:50: The political logic of energizing the minority
• 26:31: Intimidation as tactic—impact on immigrants and public protest

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Episode Tone

The episode maintains a clear-eyed but conversational tone, blending policy analysis, field reporting, and wry observations about how political imperatives are shaping both government institutions and public discourse.

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Summary Takeaways

• Trump’s shakeup at ICE is a deliberate effort to increase arrests and deportations using the more aggressive, improvisational tactics of Border Patrol.
• Internal political rivalries and the influence of White House hardliners, particularly Stephen Miller, have driven this shift.
• The administration seeks to project “tough on immigration” optics for political gain, regardless of broad public disapproval.
• Public sentiment is complicated; while voters want immigration enforcement, there’s growing discomfort with Trump’s methods.
• The aggressive tactics are both a political play to energize Trump’s base and a broader strategy of intimidation, targeting immigrants and dissenters alike.

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Contributors:

• Andrew Prokop: Senior Politics Correspondent, Vox
• Molly O’Toole: Immigration Journalist, LA Times
• Host: Estad Herndon

Transcript

[Estad Herndon]

President Trump's immigration crackdown has already sown anger and confusion.

[Andrew Prokop]

This guy in the glasses took his gun out and pointed at innocent bystanders right there. This guy right there. You ice, get the out of Chicago. You cowards, you terrorists.

[Estad Herndon]

Some in the community say the tactics are too aggressive. Video taken last weekend shows agents using tear gas at a Halloween parade. But here's the thing. The White House thinks this doesn't go nearly far enough.

[Andrew Prokop]

You're okay with those tactics?

[Molly O'Toole]

Yeah, because you have to get the people out. You know?

[Estad Herndon]

President Trump is shaking things up at ice, and he's doing so with an explicit more arrest, more deportations, more chaos. While the next phase of Trump's immigration agenda could be even more dramatic than the previous ones. That's coming up on Today Explained from Vox.

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[Molly O'Toole]

Megan Rapinoe here. The WNBA season is over, but on A Touch More we're still playing games. We're checking out the tug of war between the players and the league as the CBA is about to expire while five teams play a round of musical chairs to fill their empty head coaching slots. And we've got Valkyries head coach Natalie Nikase on the show to talk about her epic first season with the Valkyries and what it's like to play and coach in Valhalla. Check out the latest episode of A Touch More wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube.

[Andrew Prokop]

This is today Explained. I'm Andrew Prokop, senior politics correspondent, Vox, covering all sorts of politics stuff.

[Estad Herndon]

I'm pumped for us to be chatting. I feel like this is going to be the first of many in our future.

[Andrew Prokop]

Yes, I am a. I think I have the medal as the most frequent Today Explained guest.

[Estad Herndon]

You know, I'm pumped to talk to you also because I think your story was so helpful. I particularly love the first line where you pointed out how ICE is a symbol to many Americans of Trump's callous treatment to immigrants. But of course, there's a big cohort, particularly on the right and in the White House, who think that ICE has not gone far enough when it comes to things like deportations. And then last week, we had news of a big shakeup that the White House was doing when it comes to immigration enforcement. Can you take me through what that shakeup was and why is it happening?

[Andrew Prokop]

So what happened was essentially that several leaders of ICE field offices across the country got removed from their posts. And it became known, it leaked out that Border Patrol officials were going to be moved into ICE to take over their jobs. And apparently these ICE officials were at first going to be fired, but then due to intervention from some ICE leadership, they're just being reassigned to headquarters or something, but basically pushed out because the White House DHS powers that be think that they haven't been aggressive enough, they haven't been tough enough. And there's another agency, the Border Patrol, that has. And that agency is now being empowered more and more, and they're essentially trying to import its way of thinking and tactics into ice, which has traditionally operated quite differently.

[Estad Herndon]

So it seems as if in the power rankings of immigration enforcement, ICE is down and the Border Patrol is up, at least in the White House's view.

[Andrew Prokop]

Yes. So there is this core difference between how these two agencies have long operated, which is that ice, they prefer, as a matter of typical practice, to know who they are targeting in advance, at least somewhat, to have a name, a list of names, a workplace, to have information in advance about who those people are. What's happening at that workplace? Oh, there's unauthorized immigrants being employed there, so we should go in and do something about it. Border Patrol, you know, the term cowboy gets used a lot like, they're at the border. They view themselves as patrolling a kind of chaotic, lawless area, just going out and looking for people who look suspicious because they, you know, by necessity, they don't have information on who the exact person is that they're seeing if they've just recently crossed the border. And so they have these more aggressive tactics that are just along the lines of just going out and trying to question people, to grab people, to detain people.

[Estad Herndon]

Video shows federal agents striking a man.

[Andrew Prokop]

In the head as they try to rescue.

[Molly O'Toole]

Doing this in me.

[Andrew Prokop]

You know, they're not the only ones using these tactics now, but these are the tactics that Border Patrol has used at the border that are now being imported into American cities and being used by a variety of agencies.

[Molly O'Toole]

Put your phone.

[Estad Herndon]

Wait, that's not how you are resident.

[Andrew Prokop]

Get on the ground.

[Molly O'Toole]

Get on the ground.

[Estad Herndon]

It seems as if this is somewhat coming from the top down, what do we know about the debate happening within the White House and, and the kind of factions among different camps when it comes to immigration enforcement?

[Andrew Prokop]

Yeah. So it's basically a debate between the hardliners and the harder hardliners. You know, there's no squishy moderates around the Trump White House on this issue. Exactly. But so Stephen Miller, the deputy White House Chief of staff, it is fundamental and essential to the idea of sovereignty and national survival to have control over who enters and doesn't enter the country. He is just infamous for in the first term and in this term, just constantly having meetings, calling up officials at agencies and chewing them out, saying, why aren't you arresting enough people? What are you doing to deport more people? And just like berating them until they do it, like sort of at risk of their jobs. Then at the Department of Homeland Security, you have at the top of it Secretary Kristi Noem.

[Molly O'Toole]

Just because you think you're here as a citizen or because you're a member of a certain group or you're not a citizen, it doesn't mean that you're going to be protected.

[Andrew Prokop]

And Corey Lewandowski, we will find you.

[Molly O'Toole]

We will apprehend you, we will put.

[Estad Herndon]

You in a detention facility, and we will.

[Andrew Prokop]

He's basically acting as Krissi Noem's chief of staff, even though he doesn't have that title officially. But he is working with Noem, trying to implement their own version of the hardline DHS crackdown. And their main rival has been Tom Homan, the White House border tsar. The governor and the mayor should be.

[Molly O'Toole]

Calling President Trump and thanking him for.

[Andrew Prokop]

Taking public safety threats off that street. And he was initially like the face of mass deportation. But Homan has been compromised a bit by the report that he accepted $50,000 in cash in a kava bag last year.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

It was from FBI agents posing as business executives in an undercover sting. Officials within the Trump administration saying the.

[Molly O'Toole]

Probe was politically motivated.

[Andrew Prokop]

But even before that, Kristi Noem had soured on him, reportedly because she was annoyed he went on t more than she did and was getting out in front of her at various TV announcements. So all sorts of high minded policy concerns at work here in the Trump administration. But it all comes back to how Miller wants the mass deportations. Noem and Lewandowski also want to look tough. And they have really fixated upon maybe Border Patrol can do what we think ICE can't or won't do. Because there was a big turning point earlier this year. Year in about May Stephen Miller summoned various ICE officials to Washington and chewed them out and saying, you're taking too long, you're too slow, you're not arresting enough people, you're not doing enough. And then he asked the question specifically, why aren't you going to Home Depot? He said, why aren't you going to 7 11? That's when we saw this real new phase of immigration enforcement start in Los Angeles and, and we're seeing it now in Chicago especially. Those are the two most high profile cases, but they are in some form like rolling it out in other cities or preparing to roll it out in other cities. This is the more aggressive street patrols. Highly militarized, lots of like, you know, they're making all these videos about how tough they look going around the city. Get out of the way for the bears now. Get out of the way for the bears. And a lot of that is from Border Patrol. ICE has become the shorthand for Trump's immigration crackdown. But most of the viral videos that show these really aggressive or outrageous tactics, probably most of them are Border Patrol.

[Estad Herndon]

You mentioned the Chicago and LA incidence is, I think, the immigration enforcement raids that have garnered the most attention. And your story points out one CBP officer, Gregory Bovino, who's pretty emblematic of their tactics overall, and that was at the center of those operations. Can you tell me about him?

[Andrew Prokop]

Yes. Bovino was a longtime Border Patrol agent who was higher up in the El Centro, California area. And he kind of led this Los Angeles crackdown which was the first big post. Why aren't we going to Home Depot operation?

[Molly O'Toole]

When someone steps in the way, then that may not, again, that may not work out well for them. And if we need to effect an arrest of a US citizen or anyone else, then we'll do that.

[Andrew Prokop]

The administration evidently really liked what it saw there. They've seen him, you know, deploy really tough tactics with protesters especially. Bovino is actually seen throwing a tear gas canister personally at protesters, possibly violating a judge's order.

[Molly O'Toole]

Border Patrol commander Greg Bovino now must meet with a federal judge every day over tactics used by federal agents.

[Andrew Prokop]

A lot of the stuff that looks like racial profiling, that is basically what he's unleashed. And he has become the face of this. He is just heavily featured like always in his, you know, his Border Patrol garb, looking tough, looking like walking around with his tough guy entourage.

[Estad Herndon]

Yeah, tough guy performance. This guy's matching the bill.

[Andrew Prokop]

And they've been using this as all sorts of short form video from him set to peppy music that the MAGA.

[Molly O'Toole]

Bass loves this is how and why we secure the homeland for Ma and Pa. America, we've got your backs. Whether it's here in Sacramento or nationwide, we're here and we're not going anywhere.

[Andrew Prokop]

They love the optics of this. So in a sense Border Patrol is being empowered. First because ICE wasn't hitting the numbers Miller wanted, but second because they love the optics of Bovino being tough and they think that the politics of that are good for them. That is a questionable assumption because these are also some of the most controversial things that Trump's crackdown has unleashed. But Miller and people in the White House, they have this gut sense that if it's between law enforcement and unauthorized immigrants, if it's between law enforcement and left wing protesters, the public is ultimately going to side with law enforcement. And so that is kind of the bet they're making. And the MAGA base loves it too.

[Estad Herndon]

Vox's Andrew Prokop Coming up, we know what Trump thinks about immigration. What does the public think, and how has that changed since Trump has come back into office? That and more coming up.

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[Estad Herndon]

It's Today Explained and I'm Estad Herndon. Recently I've been curious about how the public is reacting to Trump's immigration rates because on the one hand he promised all of this and you could argue voters knew what they were signing up for. But now that they're seeing it in real life, is America having buyers remorse? Molly o' Toole has covered immigration for years, most recently at the LA Times, and she says Trump's got a leg up here because he's figured out something important.

[Molly O'Toole]

What Trump has done very effectively and in particular the people around Trump. But Trump as a messenger very effectively is shifted the entirety of the immigration conversation. These sort of political conversation, the American public's perception on immigration shifted the entire thing to the right. Whereas if you look at the polling, there actually is much more sort of bipartisan support for immigration and sort of broadly positive views on immigration writ Large than you would think, based on sort of the rhetoric that we've heard and also the electoral successes.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Right.

[Molly O'Toole]

That the sort of MAGA Trump movement coming down the escalator and, you know, talking about crime and fear.

[Estad Herndon]

Right. They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

They're bringing drugs, they're bringing crime, they're.

[Estad Herndon]

Rapists, and some, I assume, are good people.

[Molly O'Toole]

Then again, on the other hand, obviously, instead of this sort of conversation about, okay, illegal immigration bad, refugees, asylum seekers, legal immigration good, which is sort of, broadly speaking, with a broad brush, how the debate kind of broke down before, but in the pre Trump era, now you just have all immigration bad, and there sort of is no immigration good sort of side of the ledger. And in that way, I think the Trump administration has been remarkably effective at sort of shifting the nature of the conversation.

[Estad Herndon]

That speaks to something that Democrats have done over the last several years, which I think kind of agree with Trump's premise that this is an issue that needs to be kind of dealt with rather than kind of stepping out on their own affirmative vision. Is that how you have seen it? Is that what you're kind of saying? In terms of the success of Donald Trump, shifting the narrative broadly over the last eight years, there doesn't seem to be that counterbalancing force.

[Molly O'Toole]

Yeah, exactly. So not only has it been, like, a fairly smart, concerted effort, really, over the last dozen years, longer from people for whom this issue is ideological and not just sort of politically strategic, like, you know, the fear of the other. I mean, this has been one of the most, like, common tropes within American politics, you know, from the history of the country. But I do think it's also. So there is a strategy there, and it has been effective, but it's easier to shift the whole conversation to one side of the spectrum if there is no counterbalance.

[Estad Herndon]

There were two polls that recently came out. First was a New York Times Sienna poll that show registered voters really disapprove of Trump's recent actions on immigration. And while they want mostly immigrants who come to this country illegally to be deported, they don't necessarily like what he's doing. Now, what is your reaction to this? Like, because it's kind of weird, right? Like, voters want in deportations, but not like this.

[Molly O'Toole]

So I think when, you know, you sort of get into the complexities of this, which people, you know, in political messaging. Right. Is not exactly known for its nuance. When you get. When you get into the complexities of what the legal barriers are, how much that would cost, how many American citizens are going to get swept up in the meantime, what civil rights, broadly speaking, might be eroded in order to achieve this goal. The billions upon billions of dollars that would be required in order to achieve some of these goals. When you start to get in the details of that and then also just see how this plays out in your community, I don't think that it might be one thing for a significant part of the American public to say, well, that sounds pretty good. Like, let's remove. Yeah, let's remove the criminals. Let's remove, you know, violent offenders. But because they shifted this conversation to all immigration bad, you know, the American voter was not making the distinction between, well, wait, actually, a lot of these actions are targeting people who have permission to be here. Yeah, they're asylum seekers. They're not these scary sort of criminals that, you know, boogeymen that. That the Trump campaign was talking about. That's not who they're going. That's not who they're going after.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

And while I do appreciate all the hard work that the ICE officers have been doing, taking the worst of the worst, it seems to become more aggressive recently.

[Estad Herndon]

They said, we're gonna get rid of.

[Andrew Prokop]

The criminals and the gang members first.

[Estad Herndon]

Right.

[Andrew Prokop]

And now we're seeing, like, Home Depots get rid of. That's crazy.

[Estad Herndon]

There was a Gallup poll this summer that really drove this hole for me. In 2024, 55% of people wanted to reduce all immigration, which I think is helpful to understand what was fueling Donald Trump's comeback. But this year, the same poll found that that number had dropped by almost half. Just 30% of people wanted to reduce all immigration. It seems as if now that Donald Trump is there, maybe the sentiment or the public effort has at least swung back to the other side.

[Molly O'Toole]

I mean, I think that poll is absolutely fascinating, but it's really hard to know what to attribute that to. Is it because people are, like, great, you know, problem solved. Like, you know, numbers are way down at the border.

[Andrew Prokop]

New data obtained by CBS News shows unlawful crossings at the southern border are.

[Molly O'Toole]

At the lowest level in 50 years. In Eagle Pass, Texas, during the Biden administration, more than 2,000 migrants crossed into the US in a single day. But now, under President Trump's policies, officers encounter just 20 migrants a day here, which is honestly that. That sort of. It kind of. It's a very limited statistic when it actually comes to understanding what's going on in terms of broader migration trends. And it's Actually a pretty limited statistic when it comes to even, like, measuring the effectiveness of US Policy, because that's at the tail end of people's journeys, right? So that's actually not telling you a lot, but it is the number that we do sort of 10 to focus on. So it's hard to know to what extent that that shift and really quite dramatic shift, sort of back towards a pre2021 feeling on immigration. Is that because people feel like, okay, well, we looked at Trump and he fixed it, or does that have to do with this sort of people seeing what those promises look like in practice and being like, wait a second, I didn't vote for that.

[Estad Herndon]

Yeah, I signed up for deporting criminals. I didn't sign up for deporting.

[Molly O'Toole]

Exactly. So it's sort of hard to know what to attribute that to. But I think there's a few other things that are really interesting about that. I mean, I think the sort of politics of fear of the other, while it is a very potent force in American politics, villainizing the immigrant and sort of blaming them for economic concerns, despite the fact that there's very limited data actually showing. And broadly speaking, immigration being a sort of net benefit economically. So I think part of it is this. If you're gonna come back to fear over and over and over and over and over and over again, I think some of the potency of that gets diluted, gets diminished.

[Estad Herndon]

It seems as if the White House is pushing forward. We know that these kind of immigration ramp ups, or even the images of these sweeps are important to people like Stephen Miller and Donald Trump. And we also know that, that there seems to be growing evidence that the public is liking it less and less and that Trump's actually actions on immigration are unpopular. Your normal politics brain would say, you know, isn't that a bad thing to do? There's midterm elections coming up. There's all these other things. Why do we think the Trump administration seems completely kind of removed from that sort of calculus?

[Molly O'Toole]

I do think that the Trump administration, this sort of Trump movement, very effectively sort of used the media to really suck up all the oxygen in the room, get all of the attention, as a way to really magnify their sort of messaging. These memes that are being sent out by the Department of Homeland Security, a sort of taxpayer funded Twitter account, right? We're seeing these memes that are pretty explicit in terms of this sort of nativist era of American politics that they're hearkening back to. You know, here's the historical roots of that. Here's why it's troubling. Here's the fact check. Even when the media is doing that, the Trump administration doesn't really care. Right. Like what they want is for that message to get out. But it's a great question. Like your politics brain would be like, like don't they want to sort of be speaking to or being seen to represent the majority of people in this country? Like that's how you win elections. Right. But I think that what we saw in 2016 and I think what we saw in 2024 is that that isn't necessarily how you win elections. Right. You can have a very impassioned vocal minority that can win an election, even if, if what they support is not necessarily what a majority of the American public supports. And so I think the messaging, even though it seems counterintuitive, right, like that's who it's geared toward. Like that's, it's geared toward their die hard supporters on the, on the top level, I think.

[Andrew Prokop]

Yeah.

[Molly O'Toole]

And then I think there's another level in which it's operating in that they want people to self deport, they want people to be afraid.

[Estad Herndon]

The point is the intimidation.

[Molly O'Toole]

Exactly. So not just of immigrant communities though. They want people to be afraid to protest, you know, they want people to be afraid to come out. But I think time will tell also whether it turns enough people off, you know, that it becomes a less effective political strategy.

[Estad Herndon]

Molly o', Toole, immigration reporter. She's writing a book right now about all of this. Keep an eye out for it. Today's show was produced by Denise Guerra, edited by Jolie Myers, Fact checked by Laura Bullard and engineered by Patrick Boyd. I'm a Stead Herndon. This is Today explained.