Turkey with the good hair

Summary

Summary of "Today, Explained" Podcast Episode: "Turkey with the Good Hair"

Release Date: January 31, 2025
Hosts: Sean Ramastrom and Noel King
Producer: Hadi Mwagdi
Part of the Vox Media Podcast Network

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1. Introduction to the Hair Transplant Trend in Turkey

The episode delves into the burgeoning trend of individuals traveling to Turkey for hair transplants, highlighting Istanbul as the epicenter of this medical tourism phenomenon. Hosts Sean Ramastrom and Noel King, along with guests Alex Abad Santos and Adam Hurley, explore the factors driving this trend, the experiences of those who undergo the procedure, and the broader implications for medical tourism.

2. The Rise of Turkey as a Hair Transplant Hub

Alex Abad Santos initiates the discussion by referencing a Vox.com article on the social media buzz around men traveling to Turkey for hair transplants. He observes, "Men are going to Turkey and they're not going to see the Hagia Sophia. We're going to look into what's going on in Istanbul." [02:48]

Sean Ramastrom elaborates on how Turkey has branded itself as a premier destination for hair transplants, noting the intertwining of social media influence and celebrity endorsements. He humorously remarks, "Turkey really ate with that hair. It's Pretty good. I like the idea that the entire country of Turkey just decided to make this man's hair really great." [03:16]

3. Reasons Behind the Popularity of Turkish Hair Transplants

Adam Hurley outlines five primary reasons why individuals opt for hair transplants in Turkey, with cost efficiency being the most significant factor. He states, "Turkey is one of the cheapest places you can go to get your hair transplant done." [00:31] The affordability is contrasted sharply with prices in the United States, where a procedure can range from $20,000 to $50,000, compared to Turkey's $3,000 to $5,000.

Furthermore, the quality of healthcare in Turkey is emphasized. Alex adds, "Turkey and hair transplants, they know what they're doing," [00:21] suggesting that the expertise of Turkish surgeons contributes to the country's reputation. Adam concurs, highlighting Istanbul as the "capital of hair transplants" with hundreds of clinics attracting hundreds of thousands of men globally each year [06:17].

4. The Hair Transplant Procedure and Patient Experience

The hosts discuss the procedural aspects and the comprehensive care provided to international patients. Adam describes the experience meticulously:

• Pre-Procedure: Upon arrival, patients are often greeted with luxurious transportation, including Mercedes Benz shuttles, and accommodated in high-end hotels. "You would have them picking you up at the airport, they would be shuttling you to and from your hotel to the clinic." [07:20]

• During the Procedure: The modern techniques involve uniform extraction of hair follicles from the back of the head, minimizing scarring. Adam explains, "About 90% of these will survive, assuming you do all the proper protocol in the month following as the scalp is recovering." [08:10]

• Post-Procedure: Patients leave with a "uniform scab helmet," a temporary but intense side effect lasting about 10 to 15 days. "It is bloody. It has been bandaged up because they've got a big diaper type thing over the back and sides of your head." [09:17]

Adam emphasizes the supportive environment, noting the camaraderie among patients from diverse backgrounds. "There's this really nice camaraderie that's there of all these people from all different countries around the world." [10:56]

5. Influence of Celebrities and Social Media

The conversation shifts to the role of celebrities and social media in popularizing Turkish hair transplants. Sean mentions Andrew Garfield and Tom Brady as public figures rumored to have undergone such procedures, enhancing the trend's visibility. "Everyone I spoke to says the only person who can tell is my barber." [12:37]

This celebrity influence, coupled with the pervasive presence of social media memes and discussions, has normalized and glamorized the procedure, making it a widely accepted option for men seeking hair restoration.

6. Broader Context of Medical Tourism

David Vquist, Director of the Center for Medical Tourism Research at the University of the Incarnate Word, expands the discussion to encompass the wider scope of medical tourism. He categorizes medical tourism into various types, including:

• Cosmetic Surgery: Predominantly led by destinations like Turkey for hair transplants.
• Fertility Treatments and Surrogacy: Seeking specialized care across borders.
• Pharmacy Tourism: Individuals traveling, for example, from the U.S. to Canada to purchase more affordable pharmaceuticals.
• Gender Reassignment Surgery: Iran emerges as a key player due to its expertise, despite the country's challenging socio-political landscape.

Vquist highlights the economic diversity within medical tourism, noting that both affluent individuals seeking high-quality care and less economically advantaged individuals seeking affordable treatments participate in this global movement [20:03].

7. Risks and Ethical Considerations

The episode does not shy away from discussing the potential risks associated with medical tourism. An alarming incident is recounted where individuals traveling from Texas to Mexico for cosmetic surgery were mistaken for cartel members and faced gunmen attacks, resulting in fatalities [21:37]. This underscores the safety and security risks inherent in seeking medical procedures abroad.

Vquist also touches upon the regulatory challenges and the variability in medical standards across countries, emphasizing the importance of thorough research and due diligence for prospective medical tourists.

8. The Economic Scale and Historical Context of Medical Tourism

David Vquist provides a perspective on the economic magnitude of the medical tourism industry, estimating it to be a $1 trillion industry globally. He connects this modern trend to historical precedents, mentioning ancient Egypt as a renowned destination for medical treatments, thereby illustrating the enduring nature of seeking medical care beyond one's borders [23:11].

9. Conclusion and Reflections

The episode concludes by reflecting on the implications of the rising trend of medical tourism, particularly in cosmetic procedures like hair transplants. It underscores the need for awareness regarding the benefits and risks, the influence of social media and celebrity endorsements, and the broader societal and economic factors driving individuals to seek medical care internationally.

Hosts and guests advocate for a balanced view, recognizing the advancements and affordability offered by destinations like Turkey while cautioning about the potential dangers and ethical dilemmas associated with medical tourism.

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Notable Quotes:

• "Turkey is one of the cheapest places you can go to get your hair transplant done." – Adam Hurley [00:31]
• "Turkey really ate with that hair. It's Pretty good." – Sean Ramastrom [03:16]
• "About 90% of these will survive, assuming you do all the proper protocol in the month following as the scalp is recovering." – Adam Hurley [08:10]
• "There's this really nice camaraderie that's there of all these people from all different countries around the world." – Adam Hurley [10:56]
• "It's a really interesting and controversial topic." – David Vquist [17:52]
• "People are wanting the value equation in healthcare, which means they want the healthcare they want at the price that they want at the time that they want, where they want." – David Vquist [19:30]

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This comprehensive exploration of the episode "Turkey with the Good Hair" provides listeners with an in-depth understanding of the dynamics driving the popularity of Turkish hair transplants, the broader landscape of medical tourism, and the multifaceted implications for individuals and the global healthcare system.

Transcript

[Alex Abad Santos]

Have you seen people on social media talking about going to Turkey?

[Adam Hurley]

I'm going to Turkey, baby.

[Sean Ramastrom]

Thoughts on people going to Turkey for these hair implants.

[David Vquist]

Very, very good.

[Sean Ramastrom]

Okay, we like that.

[Adam Hurley]

Turkey is really, you know, I'm not.

[David Vquist]

A big fan of medical tourism.

[Adam Hurley]

I was on Nightline talking about medical tourism, the dangers of medical tourism.

[Alex Abad Santos]

But Turkey and hair transplants, they know what they're doing.

[Adam Hurley]

Here are five reasons why I chose.

[Alex Abad Santos]

Turkey for my hair transplant. Reason number one is, of course, price.

[Adam Hurley]

Turkey is one of the cheapest places you can go to to get your hair transplant done.

[Sean Ramastrom]

Every single I know has gone to.

[Adam Hurley]

Turkey to get the transplant. Oh yeah, like RuPaul has a euphemism for dying. Say, you know, so and so has left for Paris and I say, well.

[Sean Ramastrom]

She gone to Turkey.

[Alex Abad Santos]

Men are going to Turkey and they're not going to see the Hagia Sophia. We're going to look into what's going on in Istanbul. Istanbul. Istanbul on today explained.

[Sean Ramastrom]

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[Adam Hurley]

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[Sean Ramastrom]

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[Adam Hurley]

Details. Snap, snap.

[Alex Abad Santos]

Turkey, Turkey.

[Adam Hurley]

Turkey.

[Sean Ramastrom]

Explain. Explain.

[Alex Abad Santos]

Alex Abad Santos, you wrote a piece for Vox.com about a trend I've seen on social media lately. Men traveling to Turkey for hair transplants. You see people going, oh, he's, he went to Turkey or Turkey did him a solid. Wow, Turkey really ate with that hair. Why is everyone saying this all of a sudden? Is it all of a sudden or have been people saying this forever?

[Sean Ramastrom]

I mean, Turkey really ate with that hair. It's Pretty good. I like the idea that the entire country of Turkey just decided to make this man's hair really great. I think there's a lot of male beauty that's obviously popped up a lot of style. And I think one of the things that kept popping up for my algorithm was I just got a hair transplant in Turkey. Here's what it is. And then became this meme, and it's ironic joke of guys in Turkey who have all bleeding skulls. So I think it's becoming this pop culture thing that Turkey is a place for hair transplants. Whether it's social media or celebrity gossip or celebrity gossip and social media together. There's a lot of Turkey. You're just flooded with Turkey.

[Alex Abad Santos]

Okay. Cause regular people are going to Turkey for hair transplants, but celebrities are doing it too.

[Sean Ramastrom]

I mean, do we wanna talk about the celebrities? We think we had it, allegedly. I don't wanna lawsuit.

[Alex Abad Santos]

We don't wanna blow up people's spots.

[Sean Ramastrom]

Right, right, right.

[Alex Abad Santos]

Let's punch up, like, Tom Brady definitely had a hair transplant situation. Right.

[Sean Ramastrom]

I think he might've had some. I think one of the people that keeps getting brought up into this conversation. And God bless. And I think this is a compliment. It's like Andrew Garfield. All of a sudden, Andrew Garfield is like, maybe he got a new hairstylist. Maybe it's Propecia. Maybe it's like some kind of thing. But, like, everyone's like, wow, this man's hair has gotten a lot better in the last, like, five years.

[Alex Abad Santos]

Maybe it's Maybelline or maybe it's Turkey. Okay, let's leave him alone. Let's talk less about Andrew Garfield and more about Turkey. Because you wrote a Great explainer for Vox.com about the whole Turkey phenomenon. Why Turkey?

[Sean Ramastrom]

So, yeah, that's basically the question I wanted to know. What I found out is that it's a little bit of, like, a chicken and the egg.

[Alex Abad Santos]

You sure it's not a turkey and an egg?

[Sean Ramastrom]

A turkey and an egg. I guess basically what had happened was Turkey had always kind of like this influx of good health care. And that translates into a lot of, like, doctors that are practicing and a lot of, like, good infrastructure. And what happened was those doctors started doing hair transplants. And as it got more popular, all this word of mouth kind of grows and grows and people start going there and start making Turkey a destination. And basically, Turkey's hair transplants in Istanbul have become synonymous with each other. And it's just like a brand now. I think one of the things that's kind of fascinating is that this is the one procedure that men have and it's like, okay, well the men have this one thing, they have this hair transplant and they're all going to Turkey. And I think also one of like the weirdest things is that it's now being treated kind of like a bachelor party. Like all these places are very luxury. They serve brunch, they drive you around in Mercedes Benzes and like it's a luxury experience which feels more like Vegas than a hair transplant.

[Adam Hurley]

I am Adam Hurley. I've been a grooming journalist for about 13 years. I cover the men's beauty industry. I write about all things that might be cosmetics. They could be procedures, topicals, things like hair transplant. It's a big umbrella, but I try to cover it all as a generalist. The cost of a hair transplant is extremely expensive. Your insurance is not going to cover this. And if you go to a place like Istanbul, you know, it has the reputation of being a hair mill, but that's to its benefit too.

[Alex Abad Santos]

Exactly how large Istanbul's hair clinic industry is, is impossible to pin down actually.

[Adam Hurley]

Now Istanbul is the capital of the hair transplants.

[Alex Abad Santos]

There are hundreds of clinics across Tukiye that offer hair transplants, bringing in hundreds of thousands of mainly men from around.

[Adam Hurley]

The world each year. If you go to the place where they are just pumping out hair transplants over and over and over and the technology has gotten so good, your hair transplant doesn't need to cost as much. Let's say you're going to do the average hair transplant that in Istanbul might cost you somewhere between 3,000 and $5,000. But in the US depending on the zip code could cost you anywhere between 20 and 50,000 or upwards of that. And to be honest, I just have a really hard time recommending anyone spend that much money on something when there is a much more affordable option in a city that has so many world class doctors.

[Alex Abad Santos]

Okay, so you're looking to drop 3 to $5,000 on a trip to Turkey to get new hair. I'm guessing that's without airfare, of course. What do you get that when you.

[Adam Hurley]

Show up, you would have them picking you up at the airport, they would be shuttling you to and from your hotel to the clinic. You would have a really clear itinerary. You should feel like you are in great hands all the way through, being looked after. And typically that will include hotel. And so you're looking at the hospitality, the transportation and the care as well as the procedure itself.

[Alex Abad Santos]

Which clinic did you choose what was it called?

[Adam Hurley]

My clinic is Dr. Serkan Eigen, come.

[Sean Ramastrom]

To Turkey, change your way to Dr. Serkin Eigen with Experts Day.

[Alex Abad Santos]

Okay, so when you get to Dr. Serkin Eigen, what does he do? How does this process work exactly?

[Adam Hurley]

Okay, so you don't necessarily have to buzz your hair.

[Sean Ramastrom]

Step snap.

[Adam Hurley]

If you're fine buzzing your hair and you're not being secretive about your hair transplant, I would encourage you to do so. It makes it a lot more rewarding, I think, to see the entire process go through. So they will, let's say they're buzz and then what they're going to do is they're going to anesthetize you and you can choose different versions of that, but they're really not going to fully put you under so that you can sort of come to if need be. And what they're going to do is they're going to extract follicles uniformly from the back of your head. Whereas they typically used to take a strip of skin from the back and that would leave a scar, now they're taking it more uniformly. It's going to heal up. And they've got little pens that make clean incisions. They can plant it at the optimal angle and then each graft can grow naturally as it would a normal hair. And about 90% of these will survive, assuming you do all the proper protocol in the month following as the scalp is recovering.

[Alex Abad Santos]

What does your head look like when you walk out of this procedure?

[Adam Hurley]

It is bloody. It has been bandaged up because they've got a big diaper type thing over the back and sides of your head where they took all the grafts from. And then you are really bloody up top. And then you're going to scab over. Mine almost turned into this uniform scab helmet over the next few days.

[Sean Ramastrom]

Wow.

[Alex Abad Santos]

Uniform scab helmet.

[Adam Hurley]

Yeah. And it takes about intense. It takes about 10 to 15 days to slowly loosen itself.

[Alex Abad Santos]

Are there a lot of dudes walking around Turkey with uniform scab helmets?

[Adam Hurley]

Yeah, but it takes a few days for the scab helmet to form. I mean, the, the pictures you see on social media, the Turkish hairline strokes, that's accurate when you realize that not.

[David Vquist]

Everybody went to Turkey.

[Adam Hurley]

Vacation, Turkish Airlines, Turkish hairlines. And one thing I have to say is that's a really encouraging thing to see if you are going there because you're not going to feel weird. No one's going to look at you weird in the airport on your flight home and you see guys with fresh hair transplants, like just you know, staring at the Galata Tower in Istanbul and just out having dinner. Personally, I would just order dinner and stay in the hotel room. To each their own. But it is a very surreal and weird thing. But it's reassuring when you're in such a vulnerable state to see so many other people doing it. And even the hotels, a lot of times they have partnerships with these clinics. So it's this weird, sad, but also shared feeling. When you look around the hotel brunch and it's all people who either had a hair transplant the previous day or who are about to go have a hair transplant in an hour. There's this really nice camaraderie that's there of all these people from all different countries around the world.

[Alex Abad Santos]

Because, like what? Because balding is something we're made to feel ashamed of, and here you're seeing people who are embracing their desire to have hair again. Is that what you're saying?

[Adam Hurley]

I don't think it's. That balding is something we should be ashamed of.

[Alex Abad Santos]

Not that we should. I don't think we should be ashamed of it, but I think it's something that maybe we are made to feel ashamed of.

[Adam Hurley]

Yeah, I agree with you there. I think it's a sign of, like, virility or vitality or something. Youthfulness. Sure. I also just think if you have the option of having, you can always shave it off and rock a bald look. But if you are bald, that's a period. There's punctuation on the amount of things you can have. And that was a big reason I wanted a hair transplant in the first place, is I'm a grooming editor. I have to have a canvas to try products and to. You know, I've grown my hair to my shoulders twice since my hair transplant just so I can try blow dryers and hair creams and all these different things. And if I lost that, I do lose my virility. As a grooming editor, you know, totally.

[Alex Abad Santos]

Adam's kind of locked into his procedure for life. He told us he'll be taking hair growth meds to keep his new hair even with his old hair until he dies. His new transplanted hair even with his, you know, natural hair. That's a big commitment. I assume you haven't had this procedure.

[Sean Ramastrom]

Alex, I have not had a hair transplant.

[Alex Abad Santos]

So as a reporter who's written about this procedure but hasn't done it himself, can you just tell us, you know, from your objective vantage, does the transplant look good?

[Sean Ramastrom]

I mean, compared to transplants from back in the day from, like all the research I've done for this story. Yes, they look pretty good. They're very unclockable. Everyone I spoke to says the only person who can tell is my barber. And I think that is possibly the biggest compliment that you can get for a hair transplant that no one can tell. Only my barber can tell. Especially when you compare it to, like the 80s and like, there were lots and lots of advertisements for hair plugs and there was a lot of like, hair restoration stuff that did not look good. But what I guess, like, the biggest difference is they figured out or doctors have figured out better ways to like, extract hair follicles and put them in places. Like back in the 80s, they were taking clusters of hair and transplanting them to a new spot. And they didn't really know the hair was growing or how the patterns of the hair and so it would kind of look like doll hair. And that is a term that you want to avoid. Like you never want your hair to look like doll hair. I think people would rather be bald than have doll hair.

[Alex Abad Santos]

Alex A.B. santos from Vox.com Adam Hurley from Blue-Print Co Adam also writes for GQ. Traveling for your cosmetic needs or even your medical needs is nothing new, but it certainly is more popular than ever. We're gonna find out just how popular it is next on today explained. Support for the program comes from 1-800-Flowers. What do they do? Take a guess. Valentine's Day is coming up and you can let your special person know just how special they are with the help of 1-800-FLowers.com. they offer beautiful, high quality bouquets and this year you can get double the roses for free. Patty Diaz is our colleague here at Vox, and she's ordered from 1-800-FLowers.

[Sean Ramastrom]

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[Alex Abad Santos]

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[Sean Ramastrom]

The world we lived in Last Friday, having a great AI model behind your applications either involved building your own or going to ask OpenAI, can I run my application on top of your brilliantly good AI model?

[Alex Abad Santos]

Now?

[Sean Ramastrom]

Maybe this is great for Google, right? Maybe this is great for Microsoft, who were shoveling money on the assumption that they had to build it themselves at great expense.

[Alex Abad Santos]

You can find that conversation and many others exclusively on the Prof. G Markets podcast.

[Sean Ramastrom]

He better call Turkey with the good.

[Alex Abad Santos]

Hair Today Explain is back. I'm Sean Ramastrom and I'm joined by David Vquist. He's the director of the center for Medical Tourism Research at the University of the Incarnate Word in San Antonio, Texas. David, you study medical tourism. Does that include the more cosmetic stuff we talked about earlier in the show?

[David Vquist]

Absolutely. Yeah. We look at a variety of, if you will, kind of patient consumerism that's occurring throughout the world, not only traveling for cosmetic surgery, but traveling for fertility treatments, traveling for surrogacy. Speaking of that, been in the news here recently, which is birth tourism, which is people going to other countries, for example, people from Latin America coming into the United States to have children in the US So they have dual citizenship. Also the idea, idea of pharmacy tourism, which we see, for example, Americans purchasing pharmaceuticals in Canada, also deaf tourism, people traveling to either in the United States, certain states that allow doctor assisted suicide, or people that go internationally to places like Switzerland, also including gender change or gender reassignment surgery. Some of the best surgeons in the world are located in the country of Iran.

[Alex Abad Santos]

Now I just think we should stop talking about everything we're talking about and just talk about how that happened.

[David Vquist]

It's a really interesting and controversial topic. So it's illegal to be gay in Iran, and it's sometimes punishable by death. However, if you were to undergo gender reassignment surgery, it is legal to be trans. And so many of the surgeons in Iran actually ended up helping people with these transitions and they became some of the most successful and competent surgeons on the surgery in the world. So because of that, because of this expertise that grew within the country, again, because people felt this pressure to get these gender reassignment surgeries in the country, people from around the world travel to Iran, a religious theocracy to be able to get these surgeries. And it's just a very fascinating story.

[Alex Abad Santos]

It sounds like from what you're saying, from that brief tour you gave us, of all the medical tourism, cosmetic tourism, health tourism, whatever you want to call it, going on around the world. If we just took like a look at a world map and had sort of flight trackers for all of the flights that were taken for these kinds of purposes, we would see like a fully colored in world map of people going from this continent to that and the other for various procedures.

[David Vquist]

That's correct. People are wanting the value equation in healthcare, which means they want the healthcare they want at the price that they want at the time that they want, where they want. It tends to be that both affluent people that have disposable income, the wealthy, tend to travel more for medical tourism. And also we see the less economically well off people, people that don't have as much disposable income, they also travel more often.

[Alex Abad Santos]

Huh. So you're saying this is something that rich people do? Certainly, but it's also something that poor people do?

[David Vquist]

Yes. Yeah, it's really fascinating. So where I'm at here in South Texas, we're very familiar with the trend because in the Rio Grande Valley, which is on the southern border of Texas with the northern border of Mexico, we have some of the poorest counties in all of Texas. And we also have a shortage of particularly primary care physicians in those regions. And so these are some of the poorest and less economically well off people in all of the United States. And they travel frequently into Mexico for access to pharmaceuticals at the pharmacia, for dental, and also for medical care. And it's very common. So that that tends to, if you will show this consumerism that's going on, again, you can understand it with the wealthy because they're looking for perhaps some of the best care on the planet. But when you look at people that are. That are essentially impoverished or in poverty situations, that they're traveling as well, is.

[Alex Abad Santos]

There a dark side to this for those who are less wealthy? I mean, if you're rich and you go to Iran for gender reassignment surgery and something goes wrong, maybe you can just easily buy your way out of that situation. But if you're poor, maybe you get stuck, maybe there's a language barrier, and then what? Like, how ugly can this get for people?

[David Vquist]

So we had a situation a little over a year ago now where a group of people drove into Texas and then drove across the border into Mexico.

[Alex Abad Santos]

It happened in the border state of.

[Sean Ramastrom]

Matamoros, just three miles away from Brownsville.

[Adam Hurley]

They took a trip across the border last week for a cosmetic surgery. And that's when they were possibly mistaken for a rival cartel. They were chased by gunmen who were opening fire on their white minivan. Now, two people were found dead. The other two survived and are back on US Soil recovering this morning.

[David Vquist]

And so that shows you, if you will, the possible safety and security issues of going into a foreign country. But we find from some data, for example, the CDC looked at data from America Americans in 2016 and they found that the overall self reported bad outcomes that occurred from the actual surgery itself, or about 5%, which is actually reasonable from depending on the type of procedure. But there are people that travel internationally and in the past have included people of wealth and affluence and that could choose any healthcare they wanted in the United States. Kobe Bryant traveled to Germany for healthcare. Yes. Yeah. Alex Rodriguez, when he was with the New York giant, traveled recently. Kirk Cousins traveled to the Caribbean. And you see probably a lot of Instagram influencers that have traveled to foreign countries to get access to cosmetic surgery.

[Alex Abad Santos]

So I think that's what brought us here to you is how much social video has blown up this industry. Can you give us a sense of how big it is at this point point?

[David Vquist]

So it's, it's a very large industry. When you look at people traveling domestically, it's very large. And then when you look at the international, when you include health, wellness, dental, cosmetic surgery, all the things that people are traveling for, it's truly hundreds of billions of dollars. It's possibly a $1 trillion industry worldwide. Interestingly, it's also a very ancient trend. So for example, when I was helping the Egyptian government by training some Egyptian physicians and hospitals on how to receive international patients, I went on a Nile cruise is what they provided as the compensation for doing this training. And on the way back from Ashwan up to Cairo, the tour guide had a stop at an an ancient temple. And on the temple wall there was a formulary for these procedures and these potentially medications that were given by the temple priest to people. And it was well known at that time that throughout the world people would come to Egypt to get access to some of the best medicine in the world. So not only is it a very ancient trend, but it appears to be a trend that keeps coming back over and.

[Alex Abad Santos]

Professor David Vquist, University of the Incarnate Word. Hadi Mwagdi produced our show today. He was edited by Jolie Myers, Fact checked by Laura Scab, Helmut Bullard and mixed by Andrea Christensdotter. And Mr. Rob Byers, who's saying goodbye to Vox today. He's been a friend of Today explained since the show's inception seven years ago. And we hope he'll continue to be one hereafter. The rest of the team includes N oel King executive producer Miranda Kennedy, supervising editor Amina Al Saadi Miles Bryan Avishai, Artsy Amanda Llewellyn, Peter Balanon Rosen, Victoria Chamberlain, Travis Larchuk, Patrick Boyd. And welcome Devin Schwartz. Breakmaker Master Cylinder makes music and I made a mistake on Monday's show. I said there's no Silk Road movie. But it turns out there is a Silk Road movie. It's called silk road and seven people saw it when it came out in 2021. Maybe after this correction, it could be eight. I apologize. Today Explain is distributed by WNYC and the show is a part of vox. You can support our journalism by joining our membership program today. Go to vox.commembers to sign up.

[Adam Hurley]

Thank you.

[Alex Abad Santos]

If you do that, and if you don't, you can always leave us a nice review. Or you can tell us that we forgot about the Silk Road movie. Snap, snap, snap, snap, snap, snap, snap.

[Adam Hurley]

Snap, snap, snap, snap, snap, snap.