Noel King (2:05)

Explain today.

Lauren Sherman (2:07)

Explain.

Amy O'Dell (2:08)

And you're watching the show tonight? Of course I am. Never miss it. I always watch it on playback. I go back to YouTube and I love it every year. I love it. I hope they're gonna do it every year. I think it's like a fun thing, you know, it's a fun night out with your friends. Sky. Kind of like the super bowl, but for women, I think.

Noel King (2:27)

Amy o', Dell, fashion journalist. Shoot.

Amy O'Dell (2:29)

The Victoria's Secret fashion show really architected the idea of fashion as entertainment.

Noel King (2:35)

Okay, everybody, have a great show.

Lauren Sherman (2:38)

Stand by.

Producer/Announcer (2:39)

Adriana, the goddess from Miami, standing by.

Amy O'Dell (2:44)

So fashion shows have historically really been Trade shows, yes, they're glamorous trade shows. You're not, you know, visiting booths in a convention hall in Las Veg when you're going to Fashion Week. But the idea is to show collections to the industry. I don't want to know how much those wings cost, but they're very valuable, and I feel like a million bucks in them, so. And just a little more leg. Just a little more leg. Little leg never hurt anybody.

Lauren Sherman (3:14)

Beautiful.

Amy O'Dell (3:15)

Victoria's Secret was very early to the idea that, hey, we can jazz this up, we can add musical guests, and we can turn it into entertainment and air it on television.

Noel King (3:29)

All right, so the 2025 Victoria's Secret Fashion show was Wednesday night. The draw of this show was always who was there, who was on the Runway, who was attending, who was doing music. What was this year all about? Like, what was cool.

Amy O'Dell (3:45)

The models were great. They had a great lineup. Alex Khonsani, who's fantastic, who is funny in every interview that she does. She's great at doing those pre show interviews, sitting in her makeup, you know, answering silly questions from reporters.

Noel King (4:02)

Sleek, slick back or bouncy blowout, baby.

Amy O'Dell (4:05)

Bouncy blowout all day.

Lauren Sherman (4:06)

That's why we're here. The secret to the perfect blood is having an amazing hairstylist. I don't know how the to do this. What's a tip? What's a tip?

Amy O'Dell (4:13)

We saw Ashley Graham, also fantastic in her pre show interview, talking about how things are gonna be bouncing, things are gonna be moving. There's gonna be a little cellulite here and there. And you know what?

Noel King (4:25)

I'm owning it.

Lauren Sherman (4:26)

And I'm owning it for everybody that's.

Amy O'Dell (4:27)

Watching Law Roach was asking celebrities questions on the pink carpet.

Noel King (4:33)

It's the fantastical world that they're able to build that brings us in.

Lauren Sherman (4:38)

Yes.

Amy O'Dell (4:38)

Sarah Jessica Parker was there.

Lauren Sherman (4:40)

You know, I have probably the same history with Victoria's Secret that most civilians do, which is.

Amy O'Dell (4:47)

It's sort of like this fantasy.

Lauren Sherman (4:50)

And whether you fit in or not in reality kind of doesn't matter.

Noel King (4:54)

No.

Amy O'Dell (4:55)

And then Victoria's Secret also brought the angels back. We saw Adriana Lima, Alessandra Ambrosio, Doubtson Crows, Candice Swanpoel. All these women who I remember from Victoria's Secret catalogs that I used to get at my house when I was growing up. And people did seem to have a lot of positive nostalgia.

Lauren Sherman (5:15)

We are so fucking back. My inner child who grew up with Victoria's Secret in the fashion shows is healed. Honestly, someone who grew up watching the Victoria's Secret Fashion show every single year.

Noel King (5:26)

I thought it was great.

Lauren Sherman (5:27)

I really, really enjoyed it.

Noel King (5:29)

You've been covering fashion for a number of years now, and you got to go to the show back when it was at its peak. What was it like? What was it like when it was, like, the hottest game in New York?

Amy O'Dell (5:41)

Yeah. I started my fashion journalism career at the Cut in 2008. And the Victoria's Secret Fashion show is a holiday marketing push. So as you neared the holidays, the invites would start to go out. And I remember sitting at my desk and opening a pile of mail and. And getting an invite to the Victoria's Secret Fashion Show. And it was like the golden ticket. Let's hear exactly what it says. It was like one of the hottest things that you could go see if you were in the industry. I think that's because you were gonna get to see someone like Lady Gaga or Taylor Swift or Justin Bieber perform.

Lauren Sherman (6:19)

Baby. Oh.

Amy O'Dell (6:20)

And there was just so much excitement and heat. So typically, they would have reporters come and interview the models backstage when they were getting their hair and makeup done during the. Well, I mean, we have beautiful hair and makeup, and there's a body room where they, like, you know, give us tan and shine.

Noel King (6:36)

A body room.

Amy O'Dell (6:37)

Yes. Yes. So you would go and talk to the models, and around this time, the late aughts, early 2010s, a lot of it would be, you know, how are you getting ready for the show? And they would talk a lot about their diet and exercise routines.

Noel King (6:51)

I remember that I work out every day.

Amy O'Dell (6:54)

Sometimes I take a day off in the week. It depends.

Noel King (6:57)

You have to work out every day.

Amy O'Dell (6:58)

I'm sorry. Which later drew increasing amounts of scrutiny.

Lauren Sherman (7:05)

Lima says she gets on a regimen of protein shakes, vitamins, and a gallon of water a day for nine days.

Amy O'Dell (7:11)

Leading up to the show.

Lauren Sherman (7:11)

She doesn't need any solid food.

Amy O'Dell (7:13)

She only. And then you would go back and you would watch the show at night, and there would be a lot of people there. Sort of stadium style seating in the Armory in New York City. And there would be a big pink carpet where celebrities who were attending would walk the carpet and answer questions. Past celebrities who attended included Leonardo DiCaprio, Vin Diesel, Donald Trump went twice in the 90s. And I seem to remember that they would sometimes, like, get up and clap for the models as they were coming down the Runway. And I have to say, watching it, it really did feel like objectifying women. And that was very glaring to me at the time as a young reporter. And also a lot of the people in the crowd were people who looked like they came from Wall street, which is very atypical for a fashion show.

Noel King (8:09)

Like, it wasn't. The ladies walked over from the financial district and were like, show us the great underwear. It was the dudes.

Amy O'Dell (8:16)

Exactly. It was men in suits who looked like they came up from Wall Street. And I was told at the time I would try to ask them, like, what are you doing here? Why are you here? It's just so atypical to see that type of person at a fashion show, at any fashion show.

Noel King (8:30)

2025, we are now living in a second Trump administration, and the culture, broadly, is more comfortable criticizing things like diversity. It is more comfortable criticizing plus size people. There's kind of a push in some corners to, like, return to form. Go back to when everybody looked like Sydney Sweeney or Adriana Lima.

Lauren Sherman (8:51)

Do you.

Noel King (8:52)

Did you feel any of that tension watching this show?

Amy O'Dell (8:55)

I did feel that tension. To me, the aesthetic felt like the Victoria's Secret of the aughts, where Vin Diesel would stand up and cheer as a hot girl was walking past him on the Runway. And a lot of bronzer, kind of very done hair. The look of cool in fashion, you know, like it or not, has for a long time, maybe a decade now, been sort of this Phoebe Philo version of cool, which is oversized clothes, kind of awkward flat shoes, sneakers. I think the sneaker trend is actually finally breaking. But we were wearing sneakers with everything for like 10 years, you know, not stilettos. And so Victoria's Secret kind of shows you the opposite of that. It's glitzy, it's push up bras, it's shiny fabrics, it's bright colors. It's just tacky. It's very loud, very done and made up.

Noel King (9:58)

You've been following Victoria's Secret for a long time now. What do you think in 2025? It is trying to say about what it's doing, about who it's for, about whether it leads culture or is downstream of culture.

Amy O'Dell (10:14)

I think it's downstream of culture. I don't think it has a grasp on culture or its place in culture. I think it wanted to come back. I think it wants to have the buzz and clout and interest and intrigue that it did in the 2000s when it was at its peak. But I don't think it understands the culture that it's coming back to. For all of the conversation I saw on social media where people were like, I'm kind of into this. This is really fun. Like, I love the nostalgia I saw a lot of people saying, you know, why are we still doing this? Why are we back to this?

Noel King (10:48)

Amy o' Dell is a journalist. She writes the Back Row newsletter, covers fashion and culture. She the all new Back Row podcast. Check out our show notes for more coming up. The Epstein Files.

Producer/Announcer (11:20)

Support for Today Explained comes from Anthropic, the team behind Claude. Every entrepreneur knows that moment when breaking news hits and you're thinking, what does this actually mean for my business? New regulations drop, markets shift, geopolitical events unfold and suddenly you need to understand not just what happened, but how it connects to everything else. Claude by Anthropic is an AI collaborator that can help you work through information in real time. You can upload docs, regulatory filings or multiple news sources to help you see the bigger picture. Need to verify claims or research background context? Claude searches current sour and provides citations you can check. It works through complex news stories step by step, asking questions that reveal deeper meanings and connections others miss. See why the world's best problem solvers choose Claude as their thinking partner and try Claude for free at Claude AI todayexplained.

Noel King (12:24)

Support for Today Explained comes from Greenlight. Greenlight believes that one of the joys of watching your kids get older is seeing them learn to have real conversations. But what about that conversation about money management? That is where Greenlight comes in. Greenlight you may know as debit card and money app designed for families. You can transfer money to your kids while monitoring how they spend and save and those kids can gain real world practice managing their finances. The Greenlight app also includes a chores feature. Make those kids work. Don't just give them money. Our colleague Odisham has used Greenlight. Here's what she thinks.

Amy O'Dell (12:56)

So when we started using Greenlight, my son had a card he would use. It's like a debit card.

Noel King (13:02)

So he would make purchase on the debit card.

Amy O'Dell (13:04)

Every time he made a purchase, I.

Noel King (13:06)

Would get an alert on my phone.

Amy O'Dell (13:08)

In the Greenlight app to say this is how much he spent. Or like if I sent him allowance.

Noel King (13:13)

Money, he would get an alert on.

Amy O'Dell (13:15)

His phone saying he got his allowance money and it would go into his savings.

Noel King (13:18)

You don't have to wait to teach your kids real world money skills. Start your risk free Greenlight trial today@greenlight.com Explain that's greenlight.com Explain to get started greenlight.com Explain when did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use Polls to settle dinner plans, Send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom's 60th and never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn more@WhatsApp.com Beauty Style.

Lauren Sherman (14:06)

Today explained.

Noel King (14:10)

Lauren Sherman is a fashion correspondent at Puck. She's co author of the book Selling Victoria's Secret and the Unraveling of an American Icon. Lauren, tell me about this couple, the Raymonds who founded Victoria's Secret.

Lauren Sherman (14:26)

So Roy and Gay were sort of proto startup people. Roy had his MBA from Stanford and he was in the 1970s in Silicon Valley when all that stuff was sort of starting and he saw white space in lingerie. He actually they started a sex toy company prior a mail order sex toy company. Essentially he was trying to find things that made people uncomfortable, comfortable and make them more comfortable. So with underwear, you know the, the places you would get that in prior to Victoria's Secret was you would go to a department store where they would just have a bunch of beige stuff or you would go somewhere more tawdry or like a Fredericks of Hollywood type thing. And there was nowhere that men or women could shop for lingerie in a comfortable, sort of very elegant way of doing it. I, I think of it as like a Barney's of, of when it first launched it was very high end, lots of high end brands from Europe and it was cool. It was an interesting, very novel concept at the time. And because they launched with a catalog as well, it really took off fast.

Noel King (15:38)

Okay, so this is what in capitalism we call an inevitability. It was gonna be a success. Once it took off, what happened?

Lauren Sherman (15:46)

Well, you know, Roy and the original partners, they weren't great at managing the business, but there was this guy named Les Wexner sitting in ohi. He had launched this company called Limited Brands out of his parents store and he thought that Victoria's Secret was primed to be scaled across the country. And so he bought it for a very measly sum out of the Raymond's hands. And by 10 years later it was a billion dollar business. In the Victoria's Secret lingerie shop on Madison Avenue, a transformation's going on. A woman, a self described practical type, given to wearing blouses with high collars and her boyfriend's old jeans, is buying.

Noel King (16:31)

Slinky silk teddies and panties edged with lace. When did, when and how did Victoria's Secret go from being, you know, a store that I would go into and Buy some nice draws to like this company doing a wild fashion show in New York that everybody wants to be part of.

Lauren Sherman (16:50)

It happened in the late 90s after Wexner read this book by the director Sidney Lumet called Making Movies. And he really applied the cinematic experience to brand building in retail. And he, he turned Victoria's Secret into a media brand. And he and his marketer Ed Razik launched this fashion show. The first one was at the Plaza Hotel. Think about this. They live streamed the Victoria's Secret Fashion show, and it became a cultural phenomenon. It was something that like whole families would gather around together and watch.

Noel King (17:23)

It's an honor to be here tonight.

Amy O'Dell (17:25)

To help get the entire country focused.

Noel King (17:27)

On two very important things, supermodels and lingerie.

Lauren Sherman (17:30)

It really transformed from the place that you get five for 25 undies to a part as big as the super bowl in some ways.

Producer/Announcer (17:40)

When you're talking about.

Lauren Sherman (17:43)

Major fashion events, there's our show and then there's what?

Noel King (17:48)

And so once you're as big as the super bowl in some ways, you are bound to hit trouble. What happens to Victoria's Secret that kind of derails it?

Lauren Sherman (17:56)

Well, you know, cultural mores changed and the company did not change with it. And when you're that powerful and that rich people don't like to say no to you. And so by the 2010s, when the sort of hokey, vaudeville esque way that these women were being displayed, it didn't feel modern anymore. It felt, you know, was objectifying and everybody knew it.

Amy O'Dell (18:22)

On behalf of every tongue twisted guy.

Noel King (18:23)

Who'S ever tried to strike up a.

Amy O'Dell (18:25)

Conversation with a delicious crumpet, I will.

Lauren Sherman (18:27)

Introduce to you the caring, multi talented.

Producer/Announcer (18:31)

Personalities beneath the bras.

Lauren Sherman (18:34)

The parent company was run by men and they just decided, no, this is what we think is sexy, and we're gonna keep it that way. And Razik did an interview. Ed Raczik did an interview with Vogue in 2018 where he kind of just said a lot of really off color things.

Amy O'Dell (18:51)

During an interview for Vogue, Razek used the word transsexual, which is deemed outdated and offensive, and said that trans and plus size women do not exemplify the fantasy the Victoria's Secret is trying to sell. The exec also revealed that he and the VS team have previously thought of casting trans and plus size models, but ultimately decided against doing so.

Lauren Sherman (19:08)

That upset many people, and that was. The company was already starting to decline by the time that happened.

Noel King (19:15)

But the bigger picture is that this comes in the face of Declining sales.

Producer/Announcer (19:19)

At the lingerie chain and also plummeting TV ratings for this fashion show.

Noel King (19:24)

And criticism that what it really does.

Producer/Announcer (19:27)

Is it objectifies women.

Noel King (19:29)

And then because it can always get worse, it does. Close. Listeners may have heard you say the name Les Wexner.

Amy O'Dell (19:36)

One thing that's very clear when people say, you know, please share names. There are names that are very well known, like that of Les Wexner, who ever.

Noel King (19:43)

This is a name that around 2019, 2020, was all over the place. Tell us about the men who were involved with Victoria's Secret and who else they were involved with.

Lauren Sherman (19:53)

So Wexner had a very long standing relationship with the one and only Jeffrey Epstein. Epstein had power of attorney over Wexner for many, many years, starting from the early 90s up until, I think, the early 2000s. He was his business associate. And he also, you know, they were very close. Wexner actually essentially gifted him a mansion on the. That. That famous mansion on the Upper east side. It was. Was originally Wexner's.

Amy O'Dell (20:27)

So there was a transfer of the townhouse. It's very blurry if you look at how that happened for zero. And then there was payment. It's. It's unclear the money trail. And then also, don't forget, he also transferred the jet over a Boeing 727.

Lauren Sherman (20:41)

They had a very complex relationship. And Epstein's rise and fall sort of coincides with the Wexner and the Victoria's Secret rise and fall. When Epstein was finally arrested in 2008, Wexner kind of came out and said he had no idea any of this was going on, that Epstein was stealing money from him, et cetera, et cetera.

Noel King (21:07)

And in a statement today, Wexner says, I severed all ties with Mr. Epstein nearly 12 years ago. I would not have continued to work with any individual capable of such egregious, sickening behavior as has been reported about him. As you can imagine, this past week, I have searched my soul, reflected, and regretted that my path ever crossed his.

Lauren Sherman (21:29)

And that was sort of the time when Victoria's Secret failed to see the writing on the wall of where the market was moving. And so at the time of Epstein's arrest and then in the. In the late 2010s and then his. His death, it was all sort of. The parallels between what was happening at Victoria's Secret and what was happening with Epstein were really remarkable. He never had anything to do with the day to day running of that business, even though many people assume he did. He was really a personal advisor to Wexner, but he also was around, he went to the fashion show, he definitely engaged with the models. And so it is a very, very complex intertwining and has definitely mired Wexner's legacy on a lot of levels. The board of directors of Victoria's Secret, even though Limited Brands was a public company at the time, the parent company was always a lot of friends of friends. It wasn't, you know, above board, board. And so eventually there were activists invest investors who pushed them.

Noel King (22:33)

A rough stretch for Victoria's Secret. Earlier this week, the chief marketing officer for L Brands, the proprietor of Victoria's Secret, resigned in the wake of a host of controversies. And that was all before the company's CEO received this damning letter from more than 100 models demanding action.

Lauren Sherman (22:48)

They changed the board makeup and Wexner eventually stepped down and stepped away from the business and divested from the business.

Noel King (22:57)

And I imagine they're under new management and they're really trying to come back. They're really trying to be relevant to Gen Z in particular. What are the opportunities that Victoria's Secret has to, you know, change their, change their brand and make themselves appeal to the wider culture again?

Lauren Sherman (23:18)

We're at this anti woke period of culture where it's like a pushback on the pushback. And I thought Victoria's Secret did a good job last night. And their executive creator, director Adam Selman of Conjuring. What made Victoria's Secret fun, what made a lot of people participate without making it feel like the last 10 years didn't happen. So it was incredibly inclusive, incredibly diverse in terms of body size, ethnicity, gender even. But it also didn't feel forced or that they were doing it because they had to. It just felt like this reflects what the culture looks like right now. And also the musical performances. They had this big K pop band on and Missy Elliott, like that reflects like the old school Missy Elliott fans, Victoria Secret. And then, you know, everyone who's under 25 is obsessed with K pop.

Noel King (24:17)

This is for all my ladies who don't get hyped.

Lauren Sherman (24:20)

And so I think the, the big question for them is like, does anyone care? Is this worth it? Will this drive sales? It felt like a nice outing, really positive all around. Whether or not that's gonna move the needle for them is another question. I've talked to people who have worked in every generation of this business. The core of Victoria's Secret was to make women feel good. And that used to mean pleasing your husband and then it meant pleasing society. And now it means pleasing yourself. And I think what Victoria's Secret did was they acknowledged look like there were models on that Runway who used to be 50 pounds heavier than they are. And I think what Victoria's Secret did was show every kind of beauty. And it's not perfect. Like it's still why are we showing women walking around in lingerie on a Runway? It's so crazy and silly. But I think they did the best job of reflecting, like, actual reality, which most marketers cannot do.

Noel King (25:30)

Lauren Sherman is a fashion correspondent at Puck. She's co author of the book Selling Victoria's Secret and the Unraveling of an American Icon. Ariana Espuru produced today's show. Miranda Kennedy edited. Patrick Boyd is our engineer and Laura Bullard is our senior researcher. The rest of the team, Abishai Artsy, Miles, Bryan, Peter Balanon, Rosen, Hadi Mwagdi, Kelly Wesinger, Danielle Hewitt, Denise Guerra, Aminah Elsadi and Jolie Myers. We use music by Breakmaster Cylinder. Sean Ramasforum, my co host. You've been having a good time.

Producer/Announcer (26:00)

I have. I have purchased marijuana at a legal cannabis shop.

Noel King (26:05)

Today Explained is distributed by WNYC and the show is a part of the Vox Media podcast network. For more award winning podcasts, visit podcast.voxmedia.com Everybody's talking about the Vox membership sale. I am. Miranda is. Luminaries such as my sister have signed up. She says, quote, now I can read all the articles I want for free and quote, but I don't understand how to get the podcast without ads and quote, never mind. I kind of like the ads. 30% off today. Newsletters, ads or no ads. It's your choice. Perks vox.com members today. I'm Noel King. It's Today Explained.

Amy O'Dell (26:55)

And Doug.

Noel King (26:56)

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Noel King (27:11)

Is that guy with the binoculars watching us. Cut the camera. They see us.

Amy O'Dell (27:15)

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