Today, Explained — "What the Right Gets Wrong About Tolkien"

Date: September 12, 2025
Hosts: Noel King
Guests: Constance Grady (Vox Senior Culture Correspondent), David French (New York Times Columnist)

Episode Overview

This episode of Today, Explained delves into the evolving cultural and political interpretations of J.R.R. Tolkien’s "The Lord of the Rings," examining how it resonated with Americans post-9/11 and how it’s currently being claimed—and arguably misconstrued—by the New Right. Hosts Noel King and guests Constance Grady and David French explore the deep moral themes within Tolkien’s work, trace its shifting legacy, and interrogate what modern political movements may be missing about its message.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Tolkien, 9/11, and the American Narrative

Cultural Resonance after 9/11
- The release of The Fellowship of the Ring in December 2001 found an American audience eager for stories about good triumphing over evil ([00:35], Constance Grady).
- Post-9/11, many critics and citizens interpreted the films as parables for the War on Terror, drawing analogies between Sauron and Saddam Hussein, and associating the "Two Towers" with the fallen World Trade Center ([04:05], Constance Grady).
- Quote: “Evil or evildoers, Sauron or Saddam. And how many towers.” — Constance Grady ([04:05])
Box Office Fears and Surprising Success
- Before release, there was skepticism about whether such a complex, expensive fantasy would find mainstream success—especially compared to the emerging Harry Potter franchise ([05:08], Constance Grady).
- Contrary to expectations, the films broke box office records and achieved critical acclaim, in part because the national mood latched onto their themes.

2. Moral Complexity and the Legacy of War

Changing Interpretations over Decades
- Earlier generations, such as the 1960s counterculture, read LOTR as an anti-war text, focusing on the trauma and ineffable wounds left by conflict ([09:06], Constance Grady).
- Sam and Frodo’s struggles were understood as metaphors for the cost of war—even the peace that follows is wounded:
  - Quote: “I am wounded. It will never really heal.” — Frodo (read by David French) ([09:36])
- The Ring was often seen as a metaphor for the corrupting power of the atomic bomb ([10:10], David French).
Post-9/11 Shift
- The early 2000s moment framed Tolkien’s story less as a cautionary tale and more as celebration of just war and good defeating evil ([10:21], Constance Grady).

3. How the Right (and Others) Appropriated Tolkien

Symbols Adopted by the New Right
- Figures such as J.D. Vance and companies like Palantir draw explicit inspiration (and even names) from Tolkien ([17:22], David French).
- David French describes how both establishment conservatives and the New Right see themselves reflected in the underdogs of Tolkien's story: unlikely heroes banding together to fight a corrupt establishment.
  - Quote: “Lord of the Rings shaped J.D. Vance’s worldview. He even named one of his companies after an elven ring... Peter Thiel is a founder of a company called Palantir... Vance is also an investor in Anduril Industries, another name from Lord of the Rings.” — David French ([17:22])
Missing the Deeper Message
- French argues that these groups are fixated on the underdog and power dynamics, but overlook Tolkien’s core warning: the corrupting influence of power itself ([19:08]).
- Boromir versus Faramir is central: Boromir lusts for the power of the Ring to do good, Faramir rejects the temptation, understanding that wielding power to defeat evil risks becoming evil yourself.
  - Quote: “Faramir rejects it. He says, absolutely not. I would not take this thing if it lay by the highway, not were Minas Tirith falling in ruin... Two very different views of power and very different views on how to fight evil.” — David French ([16:15])

4. What Contemporary Movements May Overlook

Core Tolkien Ethos
- Tolkien’s message centers not just on defeating evil, but resisting the will to dominate—even for good ends ([21:49], David French).
  - Quote: “So Sauron is the big bad guy, but there’s a more subtle evil at work... the will to power. So that even if good defeats evil, if good adopts evil’s means to defeat evil, then good becomes evil.” — David French ([21:10])
- French draws an implicit comparison: He sees today’s New Right as Boromir, trying to seize power to do good, oblivious to the risk of corruption.
Tolkien as a Multi-faceted Symbol
- Other historical movements, from hippies to environmentalists to various religious groups, have all seen their own values reflected in Tolkien’s work ([22:33], David French).
- The story’s themes about environmental destruction (Isengard vs. the Shire), caring for the vulnerable, and resisting domination have particularly strong resonance.
  - Quote: “Good is compassionate. It cares for the vulnerable. It preserves and protects natural beauty. It shuns domination and the will to power.” — David French ([23:41])
Tolkien's Possible Frustration with the New Right
- French suggests Tolkien would likely be “frustrated” with how the New Right reads him ([25:08]):
  - Quote: “Tolkien would urge them to read again and give it a bit of a closer read... especially the way in which the will to power has manifested itself on the Trump right, often accompanied by very vulgar displays of wealth and opulence that is not very Tolkienesque...” — David French ([25:08])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the American post-9/11 mindset:
“[Tolkien's story] fits really nicely into the narrative that the Bush administration especially had begun building for the country about how we were going to respond to 9/11.”
— Constance Grady ([03:18])
Analogy to real-world power:
“Good gets corrupted when it adopts evil’s tools to defeat evil, when it yields to sort of this ends justifies the means.”
— David French ([19:45])
On Tolkien’s vision of heroism:
“Consistent in the Tolkien work is that it's unlikely people, it's unlikely events that undo great evil. It is not that you confront power with power.”
— David French ([19:59])
Environmentalism & Tolkien:
“For a very long time, especially I would say in the 70s and 80s, [environmentalists] really latched on to Tolkien, because… you see this big contrast between kind of the industrialization and destruction of nature... versus the Shire and the elves of Rivendell who care for nature.”
— David French ([22:59])
Summary of Tolkien's philosophy:
“Even if you have motives to try to do justice, that quest to dominate is ultimately corrupting.”
— David French ([22:19])

Important Timestamps

00:35 – Lord of the Rings as America’s myth in a post-9/11 world
04:05 – Karen Durbin’s NYT essay, "accidental echoes" between Tolkien and War on Terror
06:15 – The film’s unexpected box office success
09:06 – Earlier interpretations: anti-war, post-WWI trauma, the Ring as atomic bomb
15:06 – David French introduces himself and his connections to Tolkien
17:22 – How the New Right and tech world have co-opted Tolkienian imagery
19:45 – Explanation of Tolkien’s warning about power through Boromir and Faramir
22:33 – Other movements (environmentalists, evangelicals) and Tolkien
25:08 – French on how Tolkien might respond to the New Right’s claims

Tone & Style

The episode combines scholarly insight with pop culture awareness, blending humorous banter (especially around fandom and nerdiness) with serious analysis of literature and politics. The guests’ personal connections to the stories and characters make the critique accessible and vivid, punctuated by quotes from the books and films.

Summary

This episode of Today, Explained reveals how Tolkien's masterpieces have become a mirror for successive generations’ anxieties and hopes: from anti-war allegory to rallying cry in a nation at war, and now a totem for right-wing power politics. But as the hosts and guests show, the real lesson of Middle-earth is subtler: Tolkien warns against the very lust for domination and glory that many of his modern political admirers embody. The episode challenges us to read more deeply into Tolkien’s work—to remember, as David French emphasizes, that “it’s unlikely people… unlikely events that undo great evil.”

Today, Explained — "What the Right Gets Wrong About Tolkien"

Date: September 12, 2025
Hosts: Noel King
Guests: Constance Grady (Vox Senior Culture Correspondent), David French (New York Times Columnist)

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Tolkien, 9/11, and the American Narrative

Cultural Resonance after 9/11
- The release of The Fellowship of the Ring in December 2001 found an American audience eager for stories about good triumphing over evil ([00:35], Constance Grady).
- Post-9/11, many critics and citizens interpreted the films as parables for the War on Terror, drawing analogies between Sauron and Saddam Hussein, and associating the "Two Towers" with the fallen World Trade Center ([04:05], Constance Grady).
- Quote: “Evil or evildoers, Sauron or Saddam. And how many towers.” — Constance Grady ([04:05])
Box Office Fears and Surprising Success
- Before release, there was skepticism about whether such a complex, expensive fantasy would find mainstream success—especially compared to the emerging Harry Potter franchise ([05:08], Constance Grady).
- Contrary to expectations, the films broke box office records and achieved critical acclaim, in part because the national mood latched onto their themes.

2. Moral Complexity and the Legacy of War

Changing Interpretations over Decades
- Earlier generations, such as the 1960s counterculture, read LOTR as an anti-war text, focusing on the trauma and ineffable wounds left by conflict ([09:06], Constance Grady).
- Sam and Frodo’s struggles were understood as metaphors for the cost of war—even the peace that follows is wounded:
  - Quote: “I am wounded. It will never really heal.” — Frodo (read by David French) ([09:36])
- The Ring was often seen as a metaphor for the corrupting power of the atomic bomb ([10:10], David French).
Post-9/11 Shift
- The early 2000s moment framed Tolkien’s story less as a cautionary tale and more as celebration of just war and good defeating evil ([10:21], Constance Grady).

3. How the Right (and Others) Appropriated Tolkien

Symbols Adopted by the New Right
- Figures such as J.D. Vance and companies like Palantir draw explicit inspiration (and even names) from Tolkien ([17:22], David French).
- David French describes how both establishment conservatives and the New Right see themselves reflected in the underdogs of Tolkien's story: unlikely heroes banding together to fight a corrupt establishment.
  - Quote: “Lord of the Rings shaped J.D. Vance’s worldview. He even named one of his companies after an elven ring... Peter Thiel is a founder of a company called Palantir... Vance is also an investor in Anduril Industries, another name from Lord of the Rings.” — David French ([17:22])
Missing the Deeper Message
- French argues that these groups are fixated on the underdog and power dynamics, but overlook Tolkien’s core warning: the corrupting influence of power itself ([19:08]).
- Boromir versus Faramir is central: Boromir lusts for the power of the Ring to do good, Faramir rejects the temptation, understanding that wielding power to defeat evil risks becoming evil yourself.
  - Quote: “Faramir rejects it. He says, absolutely not. I would not take this thing if it lay by the highway, not were Minas Tirith falling in ruin... Two very different views of power and very different views on how to fight evil.” — David French ([16:15])

4. What Contemporary Movements May Overlook

Core Tolkien Ethos
- Tolkien’s message centers not just on defeating evil, but resisting the will to dominate—even for good ends ([21:49], David French).
  - Quote: “So Sauron is the big bad guy, but there’s a more subtle evil at work... the will to power. So that even if good defeats evil, if good adopts evil’s means to defeat evil, then good becomes evil.” — David French ([21:10])
- French draws an implicit comparison: He sees today’s New Right as Boromir, trying to seize power to do good, oblivious to the risk of corruption.
Tolkien as a Multi-faceted Symbol
- Other historical movements, from hippies to environmentalists to various religious groups, have all seen their own values reflected in Tolkien’s work ([22:33], David French).
- The story’s themes about environmental destruction (Isengard vs. the Shire), caring for the vulnerable, and resisting domination have particularly strong resonance.
  - Quote: “Good is compassionate. It cares for the vulnerable. It preserves and protects natural beauty. It shuns domination and the will to power.” — David French ([23:41])
Tolkien's Possible Frustration with the New Right
- French suggests Tolkien would likely be “frustrated” with how the New Right reads him ([25:08]):
  - Quote: “Tolkien would urge them to read again and give it a bit of a closer read... especially the way in which the will to power has manifested itself on the Trump right, often accompanied by very vulgar displays of wealth and opulence that is not very Tolkienesque...” — David French ([25:08])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the American post-9/11 mindset:
“[Tolkien's story] fits really nicely into the narrative that the Bush administration especially had begun building for the country about how we were going to respond to 9/11.”
— Constance Grady ([03:18])
Analogy to real-world power:
“Good gets corrupted when it adopts evil’s tools to defeat evil, when it yields to sort of this ends justifies the means.”
— David French ([19:45])
On Tolkien’s vision of heroism:
“Consistent in the Tolkien work is that it's unlikely people, it's unlikely events that undo great evil. It is not that you confront power with power.”
— David French ([19:59])
Environmentalism & Tolkien:
“For a very long time, especially I would say in the 70s and 80s, [environmentalists] really latched on to Tolkien, because… you see this big contrast between kind of the industrialization and destruction of nature... versus the Shire and the elves of Rivendell who care for nature.”
— David French ([22:59])
Summary of Tolkien's philosophy:
“Even if you have motives to try to do justice, that quest to dominate is ultimately corrupting.”
— David French ([22:19])

Important Timestamps

00:35 – Lord of the Rings as America’s myth in a post-9/11 world
04:05 – Karen Durbin’s NYT essay, "accidental echoes" between Tolkien and War on Terror
06:15 – The film’s unexpected box office success
09:06 – Earlier interpretations: anti-war, post-WWI trauma, the Ring as atomic bomb
15:06 – David French introduces himself and his connections to Tolkien
17:22 – How the New Right and tech world have co-opted Tolkienian imagery
19:45 – Explanation of Tolkien’s warning about power through Boromir and Faramir
22:33 – Other movements (environmentalists, evangelicals) and Tolkien
25:08 – French on how Tolkien might respond to the New Right’s claims

wavePod

What the right gets wrong about Tolkien

Summary

Today, Explained — "What the Right Gets Wrong About Tolkien"

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Tolkien, 9/11, and the American Narrative

2. Moral Complexity and the Legacy of War

3. How the Right (and Others) Appropriated Tolkien

4. What Contemporary Movements May Overlook

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Important Timestamps

Tone & Style

Summary

Transcript

Summary

Today, Explained — "What the Right Gets Wrong About Tolkien"

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Tolkien, 9/11, and the American Narrative

2. Moral Complexity and the Legacy of War

3. How the Right (and Others) Appropriated Tolkien

4. What Contemporary Movements May Overlook

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Important Timestamps

Tone & Style

Summary