What the right gets wrong about Tolkien

Summary

Today, Explained — "What the Right Gets Wrong About Tolkien"

Date: September 12, 2025
Hosts: Noel King
Guests: Constance Grady (Vox Senior Culture Correspondent), David French (New York Times Columnist)

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Episode Overview

This episode of Today, Explained delves into the evolving cultural and political interpretations of J.R.R. Tolkien’s "The Lord of the Rings," examining how it resonated with Americans post-9/11 and how it’s currently being claimed—and arguably misconstrued—by the New Right. Hosts Noel King and guests Constance Grady and David French explore the deep moral themes within Tolkien’s work, trace its shifting legacy, and interrogate what modern political movements may be missing about its message.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Tolkien, 9/11, and the American Narrative

• Cultural Resonance after 9/11

  • The release of The Fellowship of the Ring in December 2001 found an American audience eager for stories about good triumphing over evil ([00:35], Constance Grady).
  • Post-9/11, many critics and citizens interpreted the films as parables for the War on Terror, drawing analogies between Sauron and Saddam Hussein, and associating the "Two Towers" with the fallen World Trade Center ([04:05], Constance Grady).
  • Quote: “Evil or evildoers, Sauron or Saddam. And how many towers.” — Constance Grady ([04:05])

• Box Office Fears and Surprising Success

  • Before release, there was skepticism about whether such a complex, expensive fantasy would find mainstream success—especially compared to the emerging Harry Potter franchise ([05:08], Constance Grady).
  • Contrary to expectations, the films broke box office records and achieved critical acclaim, in part because the national mood latched onto their themes.

2. Moral Complexity and the Legacy of War

• Changing Interpretations over Decades

  • Earlier generations, such as the 1960s counterculture, read LOTR as an anti-war text, focusing on the trauma and ineffable wounds left by conflict ([09:06], Constance Grady).
  • Sam and Frodo’s struggles were understood as metaphors for the cost of war—even the peace that follows is wounded:
    • Quote: “I am wounded. It will never really heal.” — Frodo (read by David French) ([09:36])
  • The Ring was often seen as a metaphor for the corrupting power of the atomic bomb ([10:10], David French).

• Post-9/11 Shift

  • The early 2000s moment framed Tolkien’s story less as a cautionary tale and more as celebration of just war and good defeating evil ([10:21], Constance Grady).

3. How the Right (and Others) Appropriated Tolkien

• Symbols Adopted by the New Right

  • Figures such as J.D. Vance and companies like Palantir draw explicit inspiration (and even names) from Tolkien ([17:22], David French).
  • David French describes how both establishment conservatives and the New Right see themselves reflected in the underdogs of Tolkien's story: unlikely heroes banding together to fight a corrupt establishment.
    • Quote: “Lord of the Rings shaped J.D. Vance’s worldview. He even named one of his companies after an elven ring... Peter Thiel is a founder of a company called Palantir... Vance is also an investor in Anduril Industries, another name from Lord of the Rings.” — David French ([17:22])

• Missing the Deeper Message

  • French argues that these groups are fixated on the underdog and power dynamics, but overlook Tolkien’s core warning: the corrupting influence of power itself ([19:08]).
  • Boromir versus Faramir is central: Boromir lusts for the power of the Ring to do good, Faramir rejects the temptation, understanding that wielding power to defeat evil risks becoming evil yourself.
    • Quote: “Faramir rejects it. He says, absolutely not. I would not take this thing if it lay by the highway, not were Minas Tirith falling in ruin... Two very different views of power and very different views on how to fight evil.” — David French ([16:15])

4. What Contemporary Movements May Overlook

• Core Tolkien Ethos

  • Tolkien’s message centers not just on defeating evil, but resisting the will to dominate—even for good ends ([21:49], David French).

    • Quote: “So Sauron is the big bad guy, but there’s a more subtle evil at work... the will to power. So that even if good defeats evil, if good adopts evil’s means to defeat evil, then good becomes evil.” — David French ([21:10])

  • French draws an implicit comparison: He sees today’s New Right as Boromir, trying to seize power to do good, oblivious to the risk of corruption.

• Tolkien as a Multi-faceted Symbol

  • Other historical movements, from hippies to environmentalists to various religious groups, have all seen their own values reflected in Tolkien’s work ([22:33], David French).
  • The story’s themes about environmental destruction (Isengard vs. the Shire), caring for the vulnerable, and resisting domination have particularly strong resonance.
    • Quote: “Good is compassionate. It cares for the vulnerable. It preserves and protects natural beauty. It shuns domination and the will to power.” — David French ([23:41])

• Tolkien's Possible Frustration with the New Right

  • French suggests Tolkien would likely be “frustrated” with how the New Right reads him ([25:08]):
    • Quote: “Tolkien would urge them to read again and give it a bit of a closer read... especially the way in which the will to power has manifested itself on the Trump right, often accompanied by very vulgar displays of wealth and opulence that is not very Tolkienesque...” — David French ([25:08])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the American post-9/11 mindset:
  “[Tolkien's story] fits really nicely into the narrative that the Bush administration especially had begun building for the country about how we were going to respond to 9/11.”
  — Constance Grady ([03:18])

• Analogy to real-world power:
  “Good gets corrupted when it adopts evil’s tools to defeat evil, when it yields to sort of this ends justifies the means.”
  — David French ([19:45])

• On Tolkien’s vision of heroism:
  “Consistent in the Tolkien work is that it's unlikely people, it's unlikely events that undo great evil. It is not that you confront power with power.”
  — David French ([19:59])

• Environmentalism & Tolkien:
  “For a very long time, especially I would say in the 70s and 80s, [environmentalists] really latched on to Tolkien, because… you see this big contrast between kind of the industrialization and destruction of nature... versus the Shire and the elves of Rivendell who care for nature.”
  — David French ([22:59])

• Summary of Tolkien's philosophy:
  “Even if you have motives to try to do justice, that quest to dominate is ultimately corrupting.”
  — David French ([22:19])

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Important Timestamps

• 00:35 – Lord of the Rings as America’s myth in a post-9/11 world
• 04:05 – Karen Durbin’s NYT essay, "accidental echoes" between Tolkien and War on Terror
• 06:15 – The film’s unexpected box office success
• 09:06 – Earlier interpretations: anti-war, post-WWI trauma, the Ring as atomic bomb
• 15:06 – David French introduces himself and his connections to Tolkien
• 17:22 – How the New Right and tech world have co-opted Tolkienian imagery
• 19:45 – Explanation of Tolkien’s warning about power through Boromir and Faramir
• 22:33 – Other movements (environmentalists, evangelicals) and Tolkien
• 25:08 – French on how Tolkien might respond to the New Right’s claims

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Tone & Style

The episode combines scholarly insight with pop culture awareness, blending humorous banter (especially around fandom and nerdiness) with serious analysis of literature and politics. The guests’ personal connections to the stories and characters make the critique accessible and vivid, punctuated by quotes from the books and films.

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Summary

This episode of Today, Explained reveals how Tolkien's masterpieces have become a mirror for successive generations’ anxieties and hopes: from anti-war allegory to rallying cry in a nation at war, and now a totem for right-wing power politics. But as the hosts and guests show, the real lesson of Middle-earth is subtler: Tolkien warns against the very lust for domination and glory that many of his modern political admirers embody. The episode challenges us to read more deeply into Tolkien’s work—to remember, as David French emphasizes, that “it’s unlikely people… unlikely events that undo great evil.”

Transcript

[Noel King]

24 years ago, a nation on edge after the attacks of September 11 went to the movies.

[Constance Grady]

One does not simply walk into Mordor.

[Noel King]

To watch the Fellowship of the Ring. Americans saw themselves in J.R.R. tolkien's tale of good and evil and hobbits.

[Constance Grady]

Don't think he knows about second breakfast bib?

[David French]

What about elevenses, lunches?

[Noel King]

Afternoon tea, dinner, supper?

[Constance Grady]

He knows about them, doesn't he?

[Noel King]

And why not? A fellowship of good guys and good elves and good dwarves trying to restore peace to the world by destroying the one Ring. Americans love and love to be the good guys. Then, in the great political upheaval of the last decade or so, some people on the right claimed the mantle of the Lord of the Rings as their own. But did they misunderstand the message? Coming up on TODAY Explained from Vox why those books and those movies still resonate in a nation still on edge. Support for TODAY Explained comes from Adeo. Addio is an AI native customer relationship management platform that Adeo says is built for the next era of companies. A powerful data structure adapts to your business model, sinks in all your contacts in minutes, and enriches your business with actionable data. Addeo says it also allows you to create those easy email sequences, those real time reports, those powerful automations which they claim can help you build what matters most, your company. You can go to adeo.comtodayexplained to get 15% off your first year. That's a T T I O.com todayexplained.

[David French]

This episode is brought to you by Jack Daniels. Jack Daniels and music are made for each other. They share a rhythm in the craft of making something timeless while being a part of legendary knights. From backyard jams to sold out arenas, there's a song in every toast. Please drink responsibly. Responsibility.org, jack Daniels and Old no. 7 are registered trademarks. Tennessee whiskey, 40% alcohol by volume. Jack Daniel Distillery, Lynchburg, Tennessee.

[Constance Grady]

This is today. It's planned. My name is Constance Grady and I'm a senior correspondent on the Culture team.

[David French]

A young hobbit embarks on a journey through a magical but dangerous world in the Lord of the Rings, one of six holiday movies we'll review this week. My God, Middle Earth does exist, eh?

[Constance Grady]

It's not just a story for kids.

[Noel King]

It'S a story for everyone.

[Constance Grady]

So the Lord of the Rings comes out after September 11th. It comes out on December 10th. What makes this story so special?

[David French]

By appealing to generation after generation after generation, often for different reasons.

[Constance Grady]

So it reaches this audience that's really, really PR to interpret almost everything through the lens of 9 11.

[David French]

Tolkien, representing the counter culture will be quite different from maybe the audience at the moment, particularly in America at war.

[Constance Grady]

Here's a movie about a grand sweeping epic battle between good and evil. Middle Earth stands upon the brink of destruction.

[David French]

None can escape it. You will unite or you will fall.

[Constance Grady]

That fits really nicely into the narrative that the Bush administration especially had begun building for the country about how we were going to respond to 9 11.

[David French]

We will rid the world of the evildoers. We will call together freedom loving people to fight terrorism.

[Constance Grady]

Nearly every review makes a mention of 9 11. They say, oh, this is the moment for this kind of epic good and evil battle movie.

[David French]

With the world newly obsessed with the clash of good and evil, the time would seem to be ideal for the Lord of the Rings.

[Constance Grady]

Tolkien's tale of good people who band together against a dark lord and his minions has never been more timely than.

[David French]

In our troubled age.

[Constance Grady]

There was an enormous piece in the New York Times by the film critic Karen Durbin, sort of nailing down what she calls the accidental echoes between the Lord of the Rings and the current geopolitical climate. Evil or evildoers, Sauron or Saddam. And how many towers. The second book and the second film are both called the Two Towers, which had some pretty unfortunate echoes. In the current climate, it's impossible not to experience Peter Jackson's Two Towers as war propaganda of unnerving power.

[Noel King]

The movie was very expensive, right? It was like a big risk. And what was the perception at the time of how it would do?

[Constance Grady]

So the savvy take about Fellowship of the Ring when it first comes out is this is probably not gonna make its money back. These movies were incredibly expensive to film. They had to develop whole new forms of CGI for the battle sequences.

[David French]

We ended up with, you know, upwards.

[Constance Grady]

350,000 characters for the animation on Gollum, your hate's nasty horses, for all the kind of optical tricks that they do to make the Hobbit and the dwarves small and the elves and the humans big. I mean we'll just have a look.

[David French]

At the footage, but I think we're not gonna notice.

[Constance Grady]

It's a really, really expensive movie. And Peter Jackson at this point in time is not really considered that dependable of a director. He has made a couple really well regarded indie movies, but his big budget movie, they've flopped. And not to mention Hollywood hasn't made a successful fantasy series since at this point, since the Star wars movies in the 70s, the smart money kind of is saying if there's going to be a fantasy movie franchise that does really well, it's probably going to be Harry Potter.

[David French]

Huh?

[Constance Grady]

Not me, not Hermione.

[David French]

You.

[Constance Grady]

Lord of the Rings is much older and the mythology is so complicated and kind of baroque that it doesn't seem like it's going to lend itself to movies as well.

[Noel King]

But then. Da da da.

[Constance Grady]

Yeah, then it's a huge hit, breaks all kinds of box office records and famously is nominated for Best Picture at the Oscars. This is a point in time when no genre movies are getting nominated for Best Picture. It's like a real, real big deal when it breaks through there.

[Noel King]

Did 911 have anything to do with the success of the movie, do you think?

[Constance Grady]

You know, in a lot of ways the Lord of the Rings are war movies. They're about these peaceful towns that are being menaced by this faceless, almost animalistic other.

[Noel King]

The Eye of Sauron now turns to Gondor.

[Constance Grady]

We see Sauron as just an eye. And the orcs are kind of this mass that becomes really appealing when you're trying to psych yourself up for, for this idea that you were a blameless, peaceful town and this enemy just attacked you out of nowhere and they're evil and you're good and you are going to go and make them pay for what they've done to you. The bad guys are mostly faceless. Mostly don't really talk. Kind of this indistinguishable horde that you don't even have to think about whether they're worth sympathizing with. Right. They're just the bad guys.

[Noel King]

Yeah, that'll. That all makes sense, I think. Okay, so let's say that the, the orcs are, you know, our enemies, the attackers and the United States, we're thinking of ourselves as the hero. But the hobbits, what about Second breakfast? The Hobbits were like little peaceful guys in their. What do they call them in their little holes?

[Constance Grady]

The Shire. The shovel. Right, yeah.

[Noel King]

Who, who in the American narrative were the hobbits?

[Constance Grady]

That's such a good question. Yeah. The hobbits are not necessarily the most compelling characters on screen.

[Noel King]

No, no, they are not.

[Constance Grady]

Yeah, yeah, they're the main characters of the books. But when you think of the movies, you think of, you know, like Aragorn opening those two doors really dramatically and striding through. Or like Legolas and Gimli having their bet about who can kill more orcs.

[Noel King]

Final count 42.

[David French]

42.

[Constance Grady]

It's really about characters. They're who are dynamic they pop on screen. They're cinematic. And that's who we were paying most attention to at the time.

[Noel King]

All right, let's go. Let's go back in time. Because prior to 9 11, the world had fought wars, including two of them quite famously. How did the post 911 interpretation of these books in the war context compared to earlier interpretations?

[Constance Grady]

Yeah, so earlier interpretations of the Lord of the Rings had really been focused on the idea that these are books about the cost of war. They're focused so heavily on the trauma of war and how terrible it is and how it's ruined lives when everyone comes back from the battles at the end.

[David French]

One evening, Sam came into the study and found his master looking very strange. He was very pale and his eyes seemed to see things far away. What's the matter, Mr. Frodo? Said Sam. I am wounded. He answered, wounded. It will never really heal.

[Constance Grady]

So there's this strong, strong tradition of using these books as ways to talk about the horrors of war. In the 1960s, there are hippies who are protesting the war in Vietnam, holding up signs that say, like hobbits against the war. There's a tradition of reading the Ring as a metaphor for the atomic bomb.

[David French]

The kind of allegory of the H bomb.

[Constance Grady]

What is said somewhere in the book.

[David French]

Is that the One Ring is a.

[Constance Grady]

Power so enormous that even if a.

[David French]

Good man were to use it against a bad, it would corrupt the good man.

[Constance Grady]

No one can be trusted to really use it responsibly. The post 911 moment is kind of unique for being the time when people are like, actually this story is about how war is kind of cool and rad and like a good thing to do when you're the good guys and you're fighting the evil guys.

[Noel King]

How did that time 20, 24 years ago now, how did that set up Lord of the Rings, the movies to have a life today?

[Constance Grady]

I think that 911 is no longer really considered part of the Lord of the Rings film legacy. I think, wow. It's been kind of memory hold in a lot of ways. And now we just kind of think of them as, you know, the craft. They're well crafted movies. They introduce all of these cool new film techniques and, you know, they're a good adaptation of an epic story. But I think looking back at this moment when this narrative that the Lord of the Rings was about the war on terror was so strong and potent, can really help us see how the things we're living through now shape the stories that we are experiencing today. And whether we'll still think of them the same way 24 years later.

[Noel King]

Vox's Constance Grady coming up, what the Lord of the Rings means to the Right Support for Today Explained comes from Chime. Nobody likes fees and complicated banking, says Chime. And Chime gets that, says Chime. Chime is a financial technology company that says they understand that every dollar counts. So when you set up direct deposit through Chime, they say you get access to fee free features such as free overdraft coverage, getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit. So much more. Chime says with qualifying direct deposits, you can be eligible for free overdraft up to $200 on debit card purchases and cash withdrawals. Plus, they say you don't need to worry about monthly fees or maintenance fees. You can work on your financial goals through Chime today. You can open an account in 2 [e-mail] exclusive explained that's chime.com explained Chime feels like progress.

[Constance Grady]

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[Noel King]

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[David French]

One ring to rule them all.

[Constance Grady]

One ring to find them.

[Noel King]

One ring to bring them all, and.

[David French]

In the darkness, explain them. I'm David French. I'm a columnist for the New York Times.

[Noel King]

And you are a self described nerd.

[David French]

Yes, yes, I own that. I own that. Absolutely.

[Noel King]

All right, so in the Lord of the Rings, which character do you most identify with? Who are you?

[David French]

You know, that's a really good question. And I think it evolves over time. So when I first read it, when I first read it, I wanted to be Legolas to Aizengar, you know, the very cool Elven warrior that is almost got superhuman powers. You know, you imagine yourself like that. And then the older I got, the more I wanted to be the Faramir charact, which that is one of. We're gonna go deep. It's gonna get nerdy. The difference between Boromir, his brother, and Faramir is that both of them had the Ring of Power, in essence, in their grasp, and Boromir grabbed for it. This ultimate weapon to fight evil.

[Constance Grady]

Why not use this ring if you.

[Noel King]

Would, but lend me the ring?

[David French]

Give it to me so that you could fight strength with strength. And then Faramir rejects it. He says, absolutely not. I would not take this thing if it lay by the highway, not where Tirith falling in ruin, and I alone could save her. So using the weapon of the Dark Lord for her good and my glory, two very different views of power and very different views on how to fight evil. That Boromir versus Faramir distinction is really central to sort of the Tolkien approach to power and sort of the Tolkien ethos that suffuses Lord of the Rings. So I have, over time, aspired to be more like Faramir as opposed to just being wowed by the superhuman capabilities of the Elven warrior Legolas.

[Noel King]

So what you're pointing to is that there is, in these books, there is enormous depth, right?

[David French]

Yeah.

[Noel King]

There are dynamics that are as old as humanity itself. You write that the Lord of the rings today, in 2025, has geopolitical implications. What do you mean by that?

[David French]

Well, it's very interesting that a number of leading figures in sort of the global New Right have identified the Lord of the Rings as deeply influential on them. So when you think of the new right, I think of it as the Trump right or the post Reagan right that has explicitly rejected those sort of more libertarian view of government in favor of a much more authoritarian view, a much more statist, top down dominating, authoritarian version of the role of government in American life. Lord of the rings shaped J.D. vance's worldview. He even named one of his companies after an elven ring Narya Gandalf now wore openly on his hand. The third ring, Narya the Great Peter Thiel is a founder of a company called Palantir, and that's a term from Lord of the Rings. A palantir is a dangerous tool. Saruman Vance is also an investor in Anduril Industries, another name from Lord of the Rings. Anduril, a flame of the west forged from the shards of Narsil. So, full disclosure, unless anyone think I'm condescending about this in any way, I own a replica of the sword Anduril. It's in my house. So it's been undeniably influential. And the point I was trying to make is it's been influential, but they've taken the wrong lessons.

[Noel King]

Yeah, let's talk about that. What is the message and what are they getting wrong about it?

[David French]

Yeah, you know, there's this sort of underdog story element of it where a lot of movements that feel as if they are counted out or that the establishment is against them or large forces are against them see themselves in kind of the Hobbits or the Fellowship of the Ring and Lord of the Rings, this sort of band of brothers and sisters battling a great evil. And so it really appeals to dissident movements and insurgent movements in that way. But then when you read deeper and deeper and you really begin to understand the underlying ethos of the work, you see that yes, it is a tale of good versus evil, but it's also a tale of how corruptible good can be. Good gets corrupted when it adopts evil's tools to defeat evil, when it yields to sort of this ends justifies the means. And so consistent in the Tolkien work is that it's unlikely people, it's unlikely events that undo great evil. It is not that you confront power with power. And so that's the part that a lot of these guys miss, is this profound rejection of power as the means of fighting evil.

[Noel King]

What are they missing when they miss that? What are the implications of that?

[David French]

Oh, they're missing the heart and they're missing the heart and they're missing it in a dangerous way. Go back to what I was talking about earlier about the Boromir versus Faramir contrast. That at a time of great need and a time of great danger, Boromir does the thing that would be natural for humans to do. He says to, you know, in the Council of Elrond, give Gondor the weapon of the enemy.

[Constance Grady]

Let us use it against him.

[David French]

He talks, and he is puzzled and stumped by this idea that you would not use this incredibly powerful weapon created by the enemy against the enemy. But it's this quest for power that is the most insidious element of it all in the Tolkien universe. And so Sauron, yes, Sauron is the big bad guy, but there's a more subtle evil at work that is not personified by Sauron. The more subtle evil is that will to power. So that even if good defeats evil, if good adopts evil's means to defeat evil, then good becomes evil. You get the feeling like a lot of the sort of the New Right is a lot of Boromirs. They're the ones that are questing and seeking that will to power, seeking the Ring. When you're in the pursuit of power, every step you take needs to generate more power. Everything you do needs to make further actions easier. The New Right wants to seize power. It wants to dominate. And then it says that it's just a better form of domination than the other side because it dominating for virtue, for good. In their construct, we don't like the.

[Constance Grady]

Model of the Left.

[David French]

We have a different model in mind, and we're going to exert both power and we're going to spend resources in remaking. Fighting itself generates tremendous information, and if you win, it generates more power. You really need to be really ruthless when it comes to the exercise of power. But Tolkien says the very quest to dominate is what corrupts you. Even if you have motives to try to do justice, that quest to dominate is ultimately corrupting.

[Noel King]

The New Right is essentially a movement, and a very interesting one. If we were to look throughout history, the last hundred years or so, what other movements have taken Tolkien and said, we see ourselves here?

[David French]

Oh, lots, lots. The old Right, you know, so, like what you might consider me, you know, we use different terms now, but Reagan conservatives, like I would consider myself a Reagan conservative, any movement that I would say has seen itself as being sort of against all odds, embattled minority, underdog. So, for example, environmentalists for a very long time, especially I would say in the 70s and 80s, really latched on to Tolkien, because when you read his works, you see this big contrast between kind of the industrialization and destruction of nature by the forces of Mordor and Isengard. The Old world will burn in the fires of industry. Forests will fall versus the Shire. O Turing, the finest weed in the south, and the elves of Rivendell who care for nature and nurture it.

[Constance Grady]

Welcome to Rivendell, Frodo Baggins.

[David French]

You see, evangelical Christians take up the banner. Catholics take up the banner. Lots of different people, especially people who see themselves as underdogs, can connect with the story. And that's part of the genius of it. That's part of the beauty of it. But what's even more beautiful about it is that when you really dive into it, it doesn't just teach you about good and evil and a battle between good and evil, it also teaches you what good should be and what good should look like. Good is compassionate. It cares for the vulnerable. It preserves and protects natural beauty. It shuns domination and the will to power. So if you look at Tolkien, it's definitely not a pacifistic tale. I mean, Aragorn is a warrior. Legolas is a warrior. Gandalf, my goodness, very powerful wizard, you know, so he. You absolutely have all of this physical courage and this martial courage that you see in Tolkien. It is in this concept of the defense of what's true, the defense of what's good, the defense of what's beautiful and not appealing to domination, will to power, to ultimately triumph over evil.

[Noel King]

So to pull back into the present day, the new right here in the United States, let's focus on them, is the takeaway that they may love Tolkien, but Tolkien likely would not have loved them back.

[David French]

I would say that Tolkien would be frustrated and that Tolkien would urge them to read again and give it a bit of a closer read. Because this sort of especially the way in which the will to power has manifested itself on the trump rite, often accompanied by very vulgar displays of wealth and opulence that is not very Tolkien esque. That doesn't say. There's not much of that that screams the Shire. For example, if you're in the New Ride and you read the Lord of the Rings, as we're taking on terrible people and we see ourselves in that role, you can see why they embrace it. But when you dig deeper, when you dig deeper, you feel like they need to give it another read.

[Noel King]

David French is a columnist for the New York Times. Peter Balanon Rosen produced today's show with help from Ariana Espuru Jolie Myers edited Patrick Boyd is our engineer and Laura Bullard Check the facts Today Explained is made by Avishai Artsy, Rebecca Ibarra, Hadi Mwagdi, Miles Bryan, Danielle Hewitt, Kelly Wessinger, Denise Guerra, Devin Schwartz, Adrian Lilly and Aminah El Saadi. Sean Ramas Firm thinks it's AI at 19 seconds. Miranda Kennedy is our EP. We use music by Breakmaster Cylinder. Would you like Today Explained without ads? Try Vox.com members. Would you like more Vox podcasts? Visit podcasts.voxmedia.com we are distributed to public radio stations by WNYC in nyc. I'm Noel King It's Today Explained and.

[David French]

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[Noel King]

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