
Prince is the subject of a new film from one of the greatest living documentarians, but it might never come out and almost no one’s seen it. We talk to someone who did: editor and writer Sasha Weiss. Meanwhile, the rise in pop star docs can be a good hang for fans, but when a film is a glorified press release, we miss out on a lot, says journalist Matthew Belloni.
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Noel King
It's Today Explained Martha Stewart is out publicizing her new Netflix documentary in the most hilarious way.
Matt Bellany
Are you happy with the documentary and how it turned out?
Noel King
Yeah, the documentary is fine. It's left out a lot. So I'm gonna go talk to them about maybe doing version two. Yeah, by telling Jimmy Fallon, among others, that she low key hates it. I don't like going to psychiatrists and talking about your feelings and all of that stuff. And the director was so intense on delving powerful people. People like to control their images and more and more often celebrity documentaries allow them to do that. The Martha doc didn't. And neither did a new and very mysterious documentary about Prince that for reasons we're going to explain, you may never get to see. That's coming up. Support for TODAY Explained comes from Expedia. Expedia believes everybody should have somewhere to look forward to. That's the idea behind Unpack 2025, a report on next year's travel trends from Expedia, Hotels.com and Vrbo. Maybe you're looking for a destination that's off the beaten path. Maybe you're looking for a hotel with an award winning restaurant or a vacation rental. No matter what kind of travel you are, you can find inspiration with Unpacked25, explore more travel trends and find you are somewhere to look forward to at Expedia.
Sasha Weiss
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Noel King
Can advise, finance and close deals around the world.
Sasha Weiss
Learn more@citi.com clientstories.
Matt Bellany
Today.
Sasha Weiss
Today.
Noel King
I'm Noel King with Matt Bellany. He's a founding partner of Puck and he's host of the Town podcast about Hollywood. Matt is the proud inventor of the term participation doc, which is a type of movie that, like it or not, is ascendant.
Matt Bellany
A participation doc is a documentary in which the subject is also an active participant and that means they are producer or they are contractually involved in the documentary. And that is most of the celebrity oriented docu series you see on streaming services. You will also notice that they are participation docs. They are done with the full participation of the subject.
Noel King
What do you think of them?
Matt Bellany
I'm not typically a fan of this genre of programming. I think that you sacrifice a lot when you get into bed with the subject of your film. I'm not saying There aren't amazing documentaries that are participation docs. However, there are so many of them these days that they have sort of morphed into another thing. And often those documentaries are simply vehicles for image brandishment by the subject. You know, name your pop star. They've got a documentary on streaming that A, they've been paid a lot of money to participate in, B, they have A, producing credit on the film and C, they have significant input into the outcome of that project. So there's not going to be anything in there that is going to tell you something the artist doesn't want you to know. The Beckham docu series, which was very popular and actually is one of the better done examples of the genre, in my opinion.
Noel King
We're very working, working class.
Sasha Weiss
Be honest.
Matt Bellany
I am being honest. I am being honest.
Noel King
Why did your dad drive you to school in.
Matt Bellany
That was a full participation doc. It's not a simple answer.
Noel King
Because did you get your dad to drive? It depends.
Sasha Weiss
No, no, no, no, no.
Noel King
Okay. In the 80s, my dad had a Rolls Royce.
Matt Bellany
Thank you. They had sign off. They had, they got paid for it. They were very much involved in the final product. And I'm not passing judgment. I get why the filmmakers do this. Because you want access. It's a tenant of journalism. If you want access to people, you need to give up certain freedoms in the documentary space. Often that freedom is the freedom to tell the story the way you want it to be told. Often it has to be told the way the subject wants it to be told. Now, there's a nuance here that often big name filmmakers, and I've debated this subject with some pretty big documentary filmmakers who say that what they don't give up is final cut. And sometimes these filmmakers will negotiate that. They get final cut. The star and the producer, they can have input, they can decide what they want to say and not say in interviews, but ultimately the final cut will go to the filmmaker. And that's an individual conversation on each one of these projects.
Noel King
For a long time, I think people have assumed that documentaries are not participation docs. That some filmmaker who wants to approach a subject as, you know, a real person with flaws and also gifts is going to do an honest take about them. Is that how it used to work? Like, how much of a shift is this?
Matt Bellany
It's not that big of a shift. It's just that today there are more of them. You look at the explosion in celebrity fronted documentaries in the streaming age. The streaming services have enabled all of this because there's just a new market for it. They're willing to pay money to get these projects at a price that induces the artist who want to participate. I mean, we're talking tens of millions of dollars some of these big artists are getting for these documentaries. And if you put a tile on a streaming service with a picture of Taylor Swift or Billie Eilish, you're going to get a lot of people to click on those tiles. So the streaming services have leaned on this genre for a lot of the most clickable content.
Noel King
Hey Matt, if I am watching a celebrity doc and I want to know whether it's a participation doc or not, other than looking at whether or not the celebrity was the producer, are there certain kinds of narratives that I'm looking for? Is there a certain type of interview or interviewee that I'm looking for? How do I know?
Matt Bellany
Well, you can look at the filmmaker and see what that filmmaker's track record has been if they direct the kind of films that tend to transcend the genre. You can also look and see even if the celebrity is not a producer on the project, look on IMDb or elsewhere and see if that celebrity has a production company, because the production company may have a credit on the film and the production company might have executives that run that company and they may be credited on the film. So it doesn't necessarily have to be the big star's name on it. It could be people who work for them or their company.
Noel King
I care a lot about this because I am a journalist and if something isn't journalistic, I'm suspicious of it. Do, do audiences care though?
Matt Bellany
The numbers suggest the audience does not care. I'm a journalist as well and I tend to focus on this stuff. One of my favorite celebrity documentaries of all time is Amy, the Amy Winehouse documentary. And that was a famously a non participatory documentary.
Noel King
Amy's blood alcohol level was four to five times higher than the drink driving limits. Maybe a combination of her eating disorders and the alcohol just made her heart stop.
Matt Bellany
Amy Winehouse's family did not like the film and didn't support it because it got into all of the demons and everything that ended up being her demise. And those are the kinds of films that, that I tend to be drawn to. For most people, especially on these streaming service, all they're looking for is a little access to their celebrities that they like. So the reason why these tend to proliferate is because people like them, they just are looking to hang out with their favorite stars a little bit.
Noel King
And we know why these would appeal to celebrities. Right? They make a lot of money, and it's a chance to kind of burnish their image. So they tell us about celebrity. Do these documentaries tell us anything about the state of the entertainment industry?
Matt Bellany
I think that the overall narrative on these documentaries is just the fact that stars these days don't need the media. They have really controlled their own narrative. You don't need a big magazine or a big documentary to turn over control to someone to tell your story. You can tell your own story, and you can commission your own documentary and have an input in that. Sometimes, if you're a big enough star, if you're. If you're a sports star, or if you are a big music star, you can do multiple documentaries. You can do one for each tour. You can ladle out different levels of access for different prices. It's a whole economy of marketing yourself via documentary. I was watching the Steph Curry documentary at Sundance a couple of years ago.
Noel King
You don't do anything in this life.
Sasha Weiss
By yourself, and, you know, like, the.
Matt Bellany
Confidence of the group is your superpower.
Noel King
And those four guys unlocked that for me.
Matt Bellany
And I couldn't believe that this was being presented as a Sundance documentary because it was so clearly, you know, staged and scripted. I mean, he went back to his hometown, and he was hanging out watching March Madness with his friends from Davidson.
Noel King
I've never asked you this.
Matt Bellany
What was your thought when Love Doe.
Noel King
Got the rebound against freaking, like a.
Matt Bellany
Song starter playing, and they were presenting this as if it, like, happened all the time. And I'm like, steph Curry doesn't hang out with his friends from Davidson. It felt a little bit like a fraud to me. Now I was sitting next to my podcast producer, Craig, who is the world's biggest Steph Curry fan, and he loved it. He loved seeing Steph Curry hang out with his buddies and go back and walk around Davidson. So for the fans, they don't really care. They just click on the tile and want to spend some time with their celebrity friends.
Noel King
Before we let you go, tell me what you know about this mysterious Prince documentary that many people, including yourself, have been talking about.
Matt Bellany
Yeah, the Prince documentary is a perfect example of the perils of doing a participatory documentary and trying to turn it into a journalistic enterprise. The people running the estate don't like the finished product, and they have essentially been holding up the release.
Noel King
Matt Bellany, host of the Town Coming up, the Prince documentary. I haven't seen it. You haven't seen it, but we've got someone who has and she says it's amazing. Support for Today Explained Comes from Expedia Heading into 2025, chances are you have somewhere to look forward to. Maybe it's a vacation far away, A continent you've never been to, A weekend trip, someplace close to home, Just a little time away from the everyday no where you're going. If travel is in the cards for you, you can use Unpacked 2025 to get inspired for your next vacation. This is an annual report from Expedia Hotels.com and VRBO and it outlines plenty of interesting vacation trends that speak to all kinds of travelers. For example, you can read about the all inclusive era. If you don't consider yourself an all inclusive type of person, there's a chance that could change because those all inclusive hotels are evolving and you might be surprised at what they now offer. Or you can explore one click trips and book a travel influencer's stay right from their feed. Through Expedia's travel shops you can see all the new travel trends and find you are somewhere to look forward to@expedia.com unpack 25.
Matt Bellany
Support for today Explained comes from Greenlight There comes a time when.
Noel King
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Noel King
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Matt Bellany
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Sasha Weiss
Do is they give me the money.
Noel King
And I will ask them how much.
Matt Bellany
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Sasha Weiss
So that they're very conscious of okay, if I want to buy something expensive I'm going to put into my savings.
Noel King
To make sure I don't spend it.
Sasha Weiss
At the gas station.
Matt Bellany
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Noel King
That's Greenlight.com explain to try Green Light.
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Sasha Weiss
The story of OJ Always was a.
Noel King
Story about the city of Los Angeles.
Matt Bellany
And about the black community here and.
Noel King
The Los Angeles Police Department. And so for me, the interest in.
Matt Bellany
Doing a film about OJ Was connected to those interests.
Noel King
A few years later, Edelman got access to Prince's archives, which are controlled by the artist's estate, and the deal was he would make a six hour film for Netflix. But he didn't. The movie is nine hours and people who've seen it say it's incredible. Most of us can't see it though, because the estate said Edelman had violated the terms of their deal and they've stopped the release. Sasha Weiss, a deputy editor at New York Times Magazine, is one of a handful of people who have seen this movie. Sasha, welcome. What was your favorite part?
Sasha Weiss
There's a great scene. It was on the night when Prince was inducted into the Rock and Roll hall of fame in 2004, and a bunch of great musicians got together to play while my guitar gently weeps still.
Matt Bellany
My guitar gently weeps.
Sasha Weiss
And Prince does this absolutely heartbreaking, virtuosic, incredible guitar solo. He's wearing a black suit, a Red Buller hat. He looks beautiful and elegant. You know, he's just, he just dominates everybody. And they kind of can't help but shake their heads in awe. But really the backstory is, you know, as with everything in this film, much more layered and complicated and in some ways sad. So the year before, Rolling Stone, which hosts this event, had made a list of the hundred best guitar players of all time, and Prince was not on the list. So he was coming to an event hosted by the people who had left him off this list. I think there's a lot of angst and a lot of even some revenge. And then I think when you watch the performance, again with some of that knowledge of some of his childhood pain, his insecurity, his grievance, you know, his sense that he was never recognized enough by the rock establishment, by his parents, by the world, you can see that he's got pain on his face. You know, it's bulky. It's both dominance and insecurity. And I think that's a lot of the story of Prince, you know, And I would say that the film most of all is interested in this really complex psychology and kind of holding all the contradictions at once. What does it take to be this kind of musical genius? What does it take from the soul of the person who is the musical genius? And what does it take from the people around him who are supporting him, who are working with him? I think those are some of the questions that Edelman was interested in.
Noel King
What was the agreement between Prince's estate and Edelman?
Sasha Weiss
The original agreement, which was struck in 2018, was between Netflix and Prince's estate. When Prince died, he had no will, which is one of the vexing mysteries of Prince. Why did he not leave a will when he seemed to care so deeply about his musical legacy? So there was a lot of fighting, and then, you know, a lot of legal fights. And then for a time, the estate was in the hands of this bank called Comerica Bank. And that was when the deal was struck with Netflix for, you know, according to my reporting, you know, tens of millions of dollars. Netflix gained exclusive access to Prince's Ball, which is his archive, which lived in Paisley park, all of his master recordings, recordings of music rehearsals, notes, and some diaries and some photographs and, you know, all of the archival material. When Edelman came onto the project in 2019, his understanding was that he and Netflix would have final cut and that they'd have exclusive access to the vault and that the estate had the right to review the film for factual accuracy, which Edelman welcomed because he's a very thorough journalist. And he said, you know, great. You know, I want it to be right. So that was the. That was the deal that he understood he was entering into what happened next. Prince is a changed hands in the middle of the process of Ezra Edelman making this film. So when Netflix originally struck the deal with Prince's estate, there was one set of people who were in charge. By the time the film started to come undone, there was a new group of people in charge, and they objected to the film. That was made. So that was one thing. Another thing was that the Netflix executive, whose name was Lisa Nishimura, who signed on the project, negotiated the original deal, brought on Edelman as the filmmaker, was laid off toward the end of the process of making the film. So the film lost its most powerful internal champion at Netflix, its best negotiator with the estate, the person who had the most clout to potentially bring about some better understanding and negotiation. In the summer of 2023, a full cut of the film was shown to the state for factual review, and they responded with a 17 page memo demanding all kinds of changes. And these were not fact changes. These were, for the most part, editorial changes. So to give a few examples, they demanded, for instance, that Edelman and his team reshoot Paisley park because they didn't like the way that it looked in the film. There's a scene that talks about Prince's death in an elevator in Paisley park, and one of his bandmates points out that the song let's Go Crazy that has a lyric about an elevator, I'm.
Noel King
Gonna let the elevator.
Sasha Weiss
And his bandmate is suggesting that it kind of presaged his death, that maybe in some bizarre way, Prince, you know, kind of orchestrated it that way. They demanded that they remove the song from that scene in the movie. Another example, Wendy Melvoin, who is a very important bandmaid of Princes in the Revolution, a really huge collaborator of his, talks about Prince calling her up when he became very religious and asking her to renounce her homosexuality. They asked that Edelman take out one of his former manager's assessments, that the Rainbow Children, his 2001 album, contained antisemitic lyrics. So, you know, things that were damning negative, they asked him to take out. And Edelman was adamant that he wouldn't take out.
Noel King
When they told him, you need to make these changes, did they say why?
Sasha Weiss
You know, my read on that is that they felt that it would turn people away from Prince, that it would ruin Prince's reputation, that it would besmirch people's image of Prince as a kind of secular saint.
Noel King
And so where we are today is this documentary is in limbo. It exists, but we can't see it. Yes, Ezra Edelman is a very respected filmmaker. He won an Academy Award for O.J. made in America. It was a great movie. Everyone said it was a great movie. He's known for doing exhaustive research, not just for being a great filmmaker, but for being a fairly serious person. Do you think he did his job?
Sasha Weiss
Absolutely. I think the film is really Fair minded. One of the complexities of the film that Edelman really engages carefully and painstakingly is about Prince's relationship with women. I think a lot of us think of Prince as a promoter of women. He had amazing female collaborators throughout his whole career, a kind of bolsterer of women and someone who embodied himself a complex sexuality and embraced his own femininity in really kind of flamboyant and beautiful ways that I think opened pathways for lots of people who loved him. So, you know, I think Prince, as a kind of almost like a non binary person before the culture totally had that language. You know, he was a pathbreaker. He was a path carver. But it was also true, according to the testimony of tens of women that Edelman and his team interviewed, that Prince could be abusive, that Prince could be exceedingly controlling, that Prince could be demeaning. And even as Edelman presents this, and, you know, he has a really, really upsetting interview with Jill Jones, who was a longtime collaborator and a sometime girlfriend, who talks about a moment when he hit her in the face and really beat her up. And it's a terrible story. And, you know, she talks about what a blow it was to her ego and her sense of self for many, many years to be involved with Prince. And it's harrowing. It's really up. But he also includes testimony from a lot of other women who have a really different relationship to their time in Prince's orbit. You know, some of his collaborators felt really bolstered by him, felt like he helped them find an identity. Felt like being kind of molded and chosen and brought into his orbit as young women really shaped their lives in really amazing ways. As a viewer, you know, you're sort of sitting and stewing in these contradictions. And we also are asked to hold all of that and sort all of that. So it's a very textured, multilayered, polyvocal account of his relationship with women.
Noel King
What is your understanding of what would need to happen for us to see this movie if Ezra Edelman were to say, okay, I'm gonna take three hours out, It'll be the length that we said it was gonna be? Would this be on Netflix next week, next month?
Sasha Weiss
I have a hard time believing that because I think the kinds of objections that the estate were raising were so numerous, were so detailed, were so antithetical to the spirit of the film. I mean, how can you edit out three hours of crucial fact and still have a coherent film? I mean, not to mention the fact that, you know, even though it's nine hours. It's really, really layered and meticulously put together. It would be like unweaving a hand woven carpet. And like I said, I mean, Based on the 17 pages of notes, you know, it's an objection to the project, it's an objection to this excavation of Prince. And I think what the estate wanted was something that was just much more straightforwardly celebratory.
Noel King
It does make you wonder if Prince's estate has the ability to do this. And there are so many documentaries being made that are just, let's show you the good side. It makes you wonder if documentary has much of a chance.
Sasha Weiss
Someone said to me, you know, it's almost like the better the documentary, the less well it fits into Netflix's system. You know, Netflix has become a factory for documentary series. Why should they spend all their resources on a deeply, complexly reported film that takes forever to make when they could churn out 10 much cheaper celebrity docs? Why would they do that?
Noel King
Sasha Weiss of New York Times Magazine. Today's show was produced by Zach Mack. Nothing compares to him. Miles Bryant assisted, Lissa Soep edited, Patrick Boyd and Rob Byers engineered and Laura Bullard fact checked. You can see that Prince performance Sasha talked about by going to today's show Notes. Truly, this man had no equal. It's Friday. Have a smoke and enjoy. The rest of the team includes Halima Shah, Avishai Artsy, Hadi Moogdi, Amanda Llewellyn, Victoria Chamberlain, Peter Balanon Rosen, Andrea Christian's daughter, and my co host, Sean Ramasfurm. Our supervising editors are Amina El Saadi and Matthew Collette. Our executive producer is Miranda Kennedy. We use music sometimes by Breakmaster. Cylinder Today Explained is distributed by WNYC and the show is a part of Vox. You can support our journalism by joining our membership program today. Go to vox.commembers to sign up. Don't forget to rate and review us. Do it when you're in a good mood. Do it after you watch that Prince video. If you missed an episode this week, that's okay. Our archives are free and open to the public. I'm Noelle King. It's Today Explained. Food insecurity still affects millions of individuals around the globe. And Nestle, a global leader in nutrition, health and wellness, understands the importance of working together to create lasting changes. Nestle's partnerships extend beyond just financial support. From building urban hoop houses to producing custom seasoning for food banks, Nestle and their partners actively engage with local communities, listening to their needs and working together to find innovative solutions. Nestle is committed to helping support thriving, resilient communities today and for generations to come. Together, we can help to build stronger, healthier communities. Learn more@nestle.com Food insecurity still affects millions of individuals around the globe, and Nestle, a global leader in nutrition, health and wellness, understands the importance of working together to create lasting change. Nestle's partnerships extend beyond just financial support, from building urban hoop houses to producing custom seasoning for food banks. Nestle and their partners actively engage with local communities, listening to their needs and working together to find innovative solutions. Nestle is committed to helping support thriving, resilient communities today and for generations to come. Together, we can help to build stronger, healthier communities. Learn more at Nestle. Combination.
Today, Explained – Episode: "When Docs Cry"
Hosts: Noel King and Matt Bellany
Description: In this episode of "Today, Explained," Noel King and Matt Bellany delve into the intricacies of participation documentaries, their impact on storytelling, and the tumultuous journey of the highly anticipated Prince documentary directed by Ezra Edelman.
The episode opens with Noel King introducing the topic of participation documentaries, highlighting their rising prevalence in the streaming era. Noel mentions Martha Stewart's new Netflix documentary as an example of this genre's popularity and the challenges it faces in delivering authentic narratives.
Notable Quote:
Matt Bellany, a founding partner of Puck and host of the Town podcast, introduces the concept of participation documentaries. He defines them as documentaries where the subject is an active participant, often having production credits or significant influence over the film's outcome.
Notable Quotes:
Matt expresses skepticism about participation documentaries, arguing that they often prioritize the subject's image over genuine storytelling. He points out that many celebrity documentaries become platforms for image brandishment rather than insightful narratives. Despite acknowledging that some participation docs are well-executed, Matt laments the genre's saturation and its tendency to limit the filmmaker's freedom.
Notable Quotes:
The conversation seamlessly shifts to the specific case of the Prince documentary directed by Ezra Edelman. Noel introduces the mysterious circumstances surrounding its halted release, setting the stage for a deeper exploration.
Notable Quote:
Sasha Weiss, a deputy editor at New York Times Magazine, provides an in-depth account of the Prince documentary's development and the obstacles it faces. She recounts the original agreement between director Ezra Edelman and Netflix, which granted Edelman exclusive access to Prince's archives in exchange for a six-hour film. However, due to changes in the estate's management and objections from new stakeholders, the documentary expanded to nine hours and included content that the estate found unfavorable.
Notable Quotes:
Sasha details the stringent demands made by Prince's estate, which sought editorial changes that would dilute or remove critical aspects of Prince's life and persona. These demands included reshooting scenes, removing certain songs, and omitting negative assessments of Prince's behavior, thereby compromising the documentary's integrity.
Notable Quotes:
The halted release of the Prince documentary underscores the tension between journalistic integrity and estate-controlled narratives. Matt and Sasha discuss how this situation reflects broader challenges within the documentary industry, where powerful estates can potentially stifle honest and comprehensive storytelling.
Notable Quotes:
The episode concludes with reflections on the state of documentary filmmaking. Noel and Sasha ponder whether true, unfiltered documentaries can survive in an environment increasingly dominated by participation docs and estate-controlled narratives. The Prince documentary serves as a cautionary tale about the potential compromises filmmakers might face when seeking access to influential subjects.
Notable Quotes:
Participation Documentaries: While offering unprecedented access to celebrities, they often compromise storytelling integrity by allowing subjects significant control over the narrative.
Estate Influence: Powerful estates can exert substantial influence over documentary content, potentially preventing the release of authentic and critical narratives.
Industry Implications: The rise of participation docs poses challenges for genuine journalistic storytelling, raising questions about the future landscape of documentary filmmaking.
Matt Bellany: Criticizes the participation documentary genre for its tendency to prioritize celebrity image over authentic storytelling.
Sasha Weiss: Provides a detailed account of the Prince documentary’s challenges, highlighting the conflict between journalistic integrity and estate-controlled narrative.
The episode "When Docs Cry" offers a critical examination of the evolving documentary landscape, emphasizing the delicate balance between access, authenticity, and control. Through the lens of the Prince documentary controversy, Noel King and Matt Bellany shed light on the broader implications for filmmakers striving to tell honest and comprehensive stories in an industry increasingly influenced by celebrity and estate interests.
For those interested in exploring the complex dynamics of documentary filmmaking and the power structures that shape narratives, this episode provides a compelling and insightful analysis.