Phil Maciak (2:38)

I think we think of the dad specifically as just this sort of universal idea.

Jonathan Hill (2:45)

This is Phil Maciak. He's an expert on dads, and I mean that literally. He teaches a seminar at Washington University in St. Louis called dad Culture Studies. He's also a TV critic at the New Republic, and he's writing a book called A Pop History.

Phil Maciak (3:01)

This is a relatively modern idea. It's something that sort of emerged in the late 19th, early 20th century. And so I think that the idea of the dad and the idea of fatherhood is constantly evolving. And I think we see it changing rapidly and sort of discourse around it transforming every day.

Jonathan Hill (3:22)

Phil traces the beginning of the idea of the modern American dad to a specific period in our history.

Phil Maciak (3:27)

The dominance of this idea is a post World War II thing. How much it was tied in with men's experience of returning From World War II of the suburbs and all these sorts of things. And the central kind of media text that helped to synthesize all of that stuff was television, and specifically the domestic sitcom or the family sitcom. And so I started looking at all of these famous TV dads, and it really struck me that these television shows were both reflecting something about American culture and also sort of providing a model within American culture that tracks pretty closely to a kind of timeline of the evolution of this figure.

Jonathan Hill (4:10)

Can you run us through the greatest hits of TV dads?

Phil Maciak (4:16)

Sure. So I think for me it's. I mean, there's a lot of places to start, but it starts for me with Ward Cleaver on Leave it to Beaver as the sort of archetypal 50s dad of suburbia.

Jonathan Hill (4:26)

Come on, get your mitt and we'll get in a little catch before supper.

Phil Maciak (4:29)

He works all day, comes home at night, but when he comes home, it's very clear that his role as a father, his role as a dad is of central importance to him. And it tells us a lot about the idea of fatherhood in the 50s as being an identity category for American men. Right. You feel alienated at work, you feel alienated in all these other sort of realms of your life. But as a father, that's who you can be. I think Archie Bunker on All in the Family is a really good example of kind of generational clash.

Faith Hill (4:59)

I am perfectly capable of getting a job.

Phil Maciak (5:03)

Now, wait a minute, wait a minute.

Faith Hill (5:04)

Hey, hey.

Phil Maciak (5:05)

You got a kid to raise.

Jonathan Hill (5:06)

Don't talk crazy.

Phil Maciak (5:07)

He's a sort of old guard conservative, you know, blowhard who's got a feminist daughter and a son in law who's a campus activist. And he's Sort of negotiating or they're negotiating in their relationship to him. This difference in an understanding of not just what society is, but what like manhood is or what masculinity is supposed to be. I think then the next sort of big ones are. Cliff Huxtable on the Cosby show in the 1980s, dual career couple who works from home sometimes, who's really involved in his kid's lives.

Zach Rosen (5:43)

How do you expect to get into.

Jonathan Hill (5:44)

College with grades like this?

Phil Maciak (5:46)

Stephen Keaton on Family Ties.

Jonathan Hill (5:48)

I'm a married man.

Phil Maciak (5:49)

I have three children.

Jonathan Hill (5:51)

I know you're a very sensitive, caring father and husband.

Phil Maciak (5:55)

I think in lots of ways these are dads who are kind of the product of feminist reimaginings of what fatherhood or what partnership is in the contemporary life. They support their wives careers, they take an active role in co parenting their children. All of the things that have happened to our understanding of Bill Cosby in the years since then.

Jonathan Hill (6:18)

Yeah, it's like, oh yeah, the dad. And then it's all this baggage of like, oh, no, this is not what I thought.

Phil Maciak (6:24)

It's startling because Cliff Huxtable is such a good dad. And then I think when you get into the 21st century, outside of these sort of domestic sitcoms, obviously there are people like Phil Dunphy on Modern Family. But I think to me, the biggest sort of TV dads of that 21st century are the anti heroes of the sort of prestige dramas like Tony Soprano, Walter White, Don Draper, all of these protagonists, they're all dads. And the sort of center of their drama in lots of ways is how do you be a dad? What does fatherhood mean? What does it mean as a part of your identity? Right. Tony Soprano is always dealing with this with his kids, and Don Draper is absent. But it's fraught. Walter White is trying to provide for his family, which is this classic trope of fatherhood. And I think those dramas do a lot to take the sort of model citizens of the 20th century sort of push on that, on those archetypes and those icons.

Jonathan Hill (7:24)

Who is the dad of 2025? If you had to pick a symbol from our pop culture moment right now, who's that dad?

Phil Maciak (7:33)

It's a hard question. And it's a hard question, I think, because this feels like a particularly kind of fraught year for the dad. I think that for a long time, the dad as an archetype is this kind of liberalizing figure. Even when it applies to a conservative dad or politically conservative D. It's about softening and it's about, like, a less hard edge. It's about moving away from a sort of idea of fatherhood as disciplinary or moral education and more about support and presence. But I also think that that model is under threat more than it has been in a while of this sort of, like, retro patriarchal vision of fatherhood. Right. That you get out of the manosphere or Andrew Tate or places like that. Right. Where fatherhood is about giving orders and fatherhood is about leadership, and fatherhood is about sternness. Right. Rather than flexibility, adaptability. So it's a weird time for pop culture dads.

Jonathan Hill (8:31)

I think. So you teach this course called dad Culture Studies. Are there any ways your students are thinking about fatherhood that have surprised you? There's all this research saying that nowadays young men are kind of more so looking to be parents than young women. I'm curious what conversations you're hearing on campus.

Phil Maciak (8:52)

You know, one thing that is very true is that they have all. And these are, you know, largely Gen Z students have all grown up in a time when dad is an adjective as much as a person. Right. So dad friend, dad bod, those sorts of things. They're also, I think, much less influenced by sitcoms. They're less inundated with those sort of models of fatherhood that came out from the sort of the big, like, sitcom production factories. So I think it's a more malleable thing for them. But they're also just really invested in it as a concept. Right. They want to think about it in their own lives. They want to think about fatherhood as something that they want to think about their own dads. They want to write about their own dads.

Jonathan Hill (9:35)

Oh.

Phil Maciak (9:37)

I think that it is. It's very much a category that's in crisis. And, you know, whether that's like an emergency crisis or just a sort of, you know, we're all thinking about this, or we're all thinking about what this means in a contemporary context. They're going through it.

Jonathan Hill (9:53)

Thanks so much for joining us.

Phil Maciak (9:55)

Thank you.

Jonathan Hill (10:01)

Up next, the story of a growing group of men also going through it. And you probably haven't seen them in a sitcom. Single men choosing to become parents on their own. Support for Explain It To Me comes from Anthropic, the team behind Claude. Some questions need more than a quick search. The kind where you want to really understand what's happening, not just get a basic overview. That's where Claude comes in. Claude is an AI thinking partner designed for people who enjoy digging deeper. It lets you upload documents, explore multiple perspectives and and piece together the context that might make complex topics finally make sense. Claude can analyze documents up to 200 pages, search current sources with proper citations, and work through problems step by step. What makes it different is how it explores complexity with you. Rather than rushing to simple answers, it helps you connect scattered information and understand the deeper patterns. Whether you're researching for work, trying to understand current events, or working through personal decisions that matter to you, Claude matches your curiosity and commitment to getting the full picture. You can try Claude for free at Claude AI Explain it to me and see why the world's best problem solvers choose Claude as their thinking partner. Not all journalism is the same. Take the Guardian. Our coverage has something unique. Fierce independence. Nobody owns us or tells us what we can and can't say, so we're free to report the whole picture. We connect what's happening in Washington to the rest of the globe, expose corruption wherever we find it, and give fresh perspective on everything from wellness and soccer to culture, the climate, and more. Read, watch, and listen to the Guardian for free@theguardian.com Faith Hill reports on singlehood and romance at the Atlantic. And she says she usually spends a lot of time thinking about single motherhood, women who decide to try parenthood on their own. But recently she heard about another group, single fathers by choice.

Faith Hill (12:14)

And then I started looking into it, and I found that this population, you know, it's small, but it seems to be growing. And that was really interesting to me. You hear so much today about men struggling and the kind of crisis of masculinity and men moving rightward. And so I just wanted to know how this sort of fit into that larger context.

Jonathan Hill (12:37)

Yeah. Do we have any idea how many of these single fathers by choice there are?

Faith Hill (12:42)

You know, it's really hard to find exact numbers. That said, when you talk to people in the fertility industry, in the adoption industry, people who study, you know, the sociology of families and how families are changing, people will tell you that we've sort of observed what really seems like a shift and a growing number of single dads by choice. It seems like since the pandemic, a lot of people are kind of reprioritizing, like, thinking about what they want in life. And they're, you know, they came out of that time just really, like, wanting to make families before it was too late in a way that they hadn't had quite that urgency before.

Jonathan Hill (13:25)

Who are the men choosing to do this? Is there, like, a typical profile?

Faith Hill (13:30)

A lot of these dads are men who, you know, never really set out to do this on their own. They just got to a certain point. Often I heard from doctors and from men themselves that that tends to be, like, in their 40s, where they realize they're still single, and they start thinking like, oh, gosh, I really. I want to have children. I've always wanted this, and what are my options going to be? And a lot of the men that I talked to happened to have, you know, a friend who was a single parent or someone who told them about this option, and that kind of made it feel real, I think. Otherwise, you know, a lot of men don't even consider this to really be a possibility.

Jonathan Hill (14:12)

Yeah. You've spoken with some of these dads. I wonder what they told you about why they decided to start families on their own.

Faith Hill (14:21)

Yeah. You know, I talked to a lot of men about what was appealing to them about fatherhood in general, and it did seem to be the sort of source of meaning or purpose or, like, human connection for a lot of men. And we're in this sort of time period where I think, like, what it means to be a man culturally is shifting really rapidly. You know, there's more women than men going to college now, and a lot of people, jobs, more and more are requiring degrees. So men are facing increasing rates of joblessness and the sort of assumed dominance and traditional behaviors of men are kind of getting questioned and pushed on. So I think for a lot of men, there's kind of this looming question of, like, what is the right way to be a man today? And it did seem like, you know, for a lot of single men, this fatherhood would kind of give them this sense of purpose that they had really been craving.

Jonathan Hill (15:26)

For the men that moved on to do this, did it provide the answer? Like, did they get what they want out of it?

Faith Hill (15:37)

I think they really did. I mean, of course, there are challenges. Like, just being a single parent is hard for anyone. But there's sort of this unique challenge, I think, for some of the men who take this on, where they have to grow into this role that no one really expected of them. You know, so much of the time, men are not necessarily raised to be tender or to be prioritizing care or, like, listening to people or kind of having that emotionally caring side of parenthood that we typically think of. And it certainly wasn't beyond them, but they had to sort of, like, get used to thinking of themselves that way. So, you know, I think often it's kind of this process not only of, like, taking on a ton of work and learning how to be a parent, but sort of internal reflection of, like, what does it mean for me to be a parent? And, you know, how can I sort of embrace these parts of myself that are so, you know, typically feminized in the culture?

Jonathan Hill (16:41)

Yeah, I think it's interesting that you say that. One of my colleagues, Rachel Cohen Booth, wrote this piece about the dearth of men working in childcare settings. And some of the men who do this work in these settings say that people can be suspicious of them. They're worried, like, hey, are you creepy? Why are you doing women's work? And the same can go for dads.

Unnamed Father Caller (17:05)

When I was taking my paternity leave with my now toddler, my father in law frequently referred to me as Mr. Mom. And what he was really doing, I think was making a judgment about what he views as being effeminate. If you're involved in taking care of every aspect of your kids lives and.

Jonathan Hill (17:21)

You know, the fact that so many people think of child rearing as women's work, that could be its own conversation, right?

Faith Hill (17:30)

Absolutely. I think that's still very true. And I think we're in a kind of interesting transitional point in that sense. Like just the fact that single fathers by choice are a growing population is testament to the fact that there is, you know, real interest, increasing interest in fatherhood. And you see that men are taking on more childcare labor, they're spending more time on average with their children. And even, you know, there was a Pew survey, I believe in 2023 that found that there was larger portion of young men who said that they wanted to become parents. 57% of said they hope to have kids one day, and only 45% of women said the same. So I think there is this shift where like, women are realizing that they don't have to be fully defined by caretaking, while men are sort of maybe having the opposite realization of like, they can make caretaking central to their identity, but at the same time, we still have a long way to go in this sense. And I think that was underscored by just like hearing about how hard it is to become a single father by choice in the first place. And often that's because people just kind of don't assume that men are natural parents. A lot of adoption agencies are kind of skeptical about the idea of single men adopting. They might not be actively recruiting men. And then in terms of just like, you know, the process of egg donation and surrogacy is so inaccessible for so many men still. And I talked to people at this organization called Men having Babies, where they really advocate for single men who want to be fathers. And they do some financial support of men who are looking into this. And so they've been trying to push for that. And they really told me that it's just been an uphill battle trying to sort of raise awareness about, you know, single men who want to be dads. And they believe that partly it's because we assume that all women want to have kids and that if they don't, they're deprived, which is obviously not always true. But then sort of the opposite case is true, where we often assume that men who can't have children are not really deprived of anything, that if they have kids, it's sort of an extra treat.

Jonathan Hill (19:47)

All right, Faith Hill, thank you so much for explaining this to us.

Faith Hill (19:51)

Thank you so much.

Jonathan Hill (19:56)

So a lot of men are seeking to become dads now, but what happens to the other parts of their lives once the kids get here? That's next. Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start. Thumbtack knows homes, so you don't have to don't know the difference between matte paint finish and satin or what that clunking sound from your dryer is. With thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro, you just have to hire one. You can hire top rated pros, see price estimates and read reviews all on the app Download today.

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Jonathan Hill (21:11)

We'Re back. It's explain it to me. We asked you to call in for this episode and tell us about the ups and downs of navigating fatherhood and we got so many responses. A lot were about fatherhood and friendship.

Unnamed Father Caller (21:26)

Being a father has changed my friendships. I'm the only father in my close friend group of long standing male friends and I think a lot about the trade offs of the ease of being a single bachelor and being able to go to the bar whenever you want versus me being on my hands and knees picking up after my toddler after a meal.

Jonathan Hill (21:46)

When my first daughter was born, my.

Unnamed Father Caller (21:47)

Wife signed me up for a new.

Jonathan Hill (21:48)

Dad'S meetup and I somewhat begrudgingly went.

Unnamed Father Caller (21:51)

After one meetup, it became clear that.

Zach Rosen (21:53)

The organizer was using the opportunity to.

Jonathan Hill (21:55)

Get us on his mailing list. Turns out he wanted to sell us ice baths and breathwork classes for 40 bucks an hour.

Unnamed Father Caller (22:01)

I guess I envy how organic things seem with the moms and how forced.

Jonathan Hill (22:05)

And transactional everything is with the men. Men are already having a hard time with social connections. According to Gallup, men under 35 are the loneliest demographic in the U.S. how does fatherhood factor in?

Zach Rosen (22:19)

My name's Zach Rosen. I am a dad and a podcast maker.

Jonathan Hill (22:23)

Zach co hosts a podcast for Slate about modern parenting called Care and Feeding.

Zach Rosen (22:28)

Being a parent, especially a new parent, but I just think a parent in general is all hands on deck, whether you're partnering with someone or not. Like that first year when we had our first kid, like, I didn't have time to socialize. I wasn't in the dodgeball league that I used to be in. I wasn't going out for a weekly meal like I used to. So everything that I was doing before becoming a dad basically ceased to exist. And I think that that becomes entrenched, and men might just be used to not hanging out. You know, I feel like so many of us, like, having an excuse. Being a parent is, like, a really good excuse. I'm sorry. Bedtime tonight was, like, really difficult. It took so much longer than expected. I can't meet up anymore.

Jonathan Hill (23:13)

Yeah. We've heard from listeners about how difficult it is to build and maintain friendships during fatherhood.

Unnamed Father Caller (23:19)

You know, I've really kind of lost a lot of my friends. My wife is still, to this day, my best friend and partner in life. I always wanted to be a dad, so becoming a father was scary. But it was the natural thing I wanted to do to find some more purpose in my life. And it's been kind of crazy. I've lost a lot of friends. Some of my closest friendships are somewhat impacted. You know, I can't always go on a trip with my best friends. I can't always talk on the phone all the time.

Jonathan Hill (23:45)

Why is this such a hard and important thing? I think for men in particular. Is that a sentiment you hear from other dads?

Zach Rosen (23:54)

It's kind of paradoxical that we're in a loneliness epidemic, and yet there are, like, more opportunities than ever for men to get out and be with other men if they want to. I think it's more. It's like, about opting in and really kind of taking that first, what will likely be uncomfortable step to go and hang out with men who you don't know. It does seem like there's kind of, like, two Approaches that male socializing of a certain age takes. There's kind of, like, the organic. These have been my friends for a long time, and we remain friends, and we have a lot of history to kind of build on. And then there's like, the dads who I really admire. I don't have this kind of. Kind of social fortitude, but, like, the dads who are joining the stroller groups, or there's this group that I recently heard about called US Men's Sheds. It's a nationwide nonprofit. I'm not making this up because, you know, there's, like, the idea that, like, women can sit face to face and have a conversation, but men need a little activity. Yeah. So men need to be, like, shoulder to shoulder. And that's what this Sheds organization is building upon. Upon. There's more traditional men's groups where you get together and sit in a circle, which I've done before, and, you know, talk about what it's like to be a dad and be a man. And, like, that's great. And you can definitely find those in any major American city, I would think, as well as, like, insert whatever you're interested in. Dad's group, you know, like, pickleball Dad's group. I pretty sure that exists where you live. So think about what you care about in addition to being a parent. And you can plug in if you want to. I've had this, like, same group of very dear guy friends since kindergarten. Now we're all 41, and I think that's unique. But I also think that there are. I've encountered other men who have this too. Like, they are still in very close relationship with people who they have been with for most of their lives. Like, my friends and I have a discord group where we are talking, like, all day long. It's the best.

Jonathan Hill (25:56)

Have you observed, like, when it comes to, like, networks, I think you and your partner or your friends and their partners, does it seem like, are the women. Have they done a better job of maintaining their friendships and support networks, or does it seem sort of the same across the board?

Zach Rosen (26:11)

I think no. I think women are better. My wife has 40,000 text threads going. Like, she is just constantly texting people, checking in on people, and she works a very busy job. So I think she's. She's definitely better at that than me. Wasn't it. Wasn't there, like, something that came out that, like, Robert Putnam, the guy who wrote Bowling Alone, like, this social science researcher, like, even his own wife makes their plans, which was, like, so ridiculous?

Jonathan Hill (26:39)

Oh my gosh, that's so funny. My wife is on several text groups.

Unnamed Father Caller (26:43)

With the other neighborhood moms and the.

Jonathan Hill (26:45)

Vast majority of social activities and play dates are planned by the mothers. I wonder how has your perception of both fatherhood and masculinity changed since you've become a parent?

Zach Rosen (26:57)

It's rare for me to have a day that I don't cry at this point. Like I used to cry when I was a non parent, but I cry so much more now. Just tears of oh my God. I just dropped my son off at school this morning and he was having a really hard time at drop offs like all of last year and this year he's been amazing at it and is like able to just to kind of go in without clinging to me. But today he went in but then like a second later he like darted back out and he said, can I just have five more hugs?

Jonathan Hill (27:26)

Oh, wow. Oh my heart.

Zach Rosen (27:29)

I know. It's like, I got to start my day like that. And I was just so, so then I cried. I'm like, oh my God, how lucky am I that I got to start my day like this? And there's just all of these tiny little moments and I've just become, I've always been kind of a what you might call a soft man. But like, parenting has just made me even softer. And so I'm embracing it. And yeah, a lot of crying. A lot of crying.

Jonathan Hill (27:57)

All right, Zach, thank you so much for joining us.

Zach Rosen (28:00)

Oh, thanks for having me.

Jonathan Hill (28:06)

Thanks to all the dads who called in with their stories this week. Next week we're doing a show on empathy. We typically think of putting ourselves in someone else's shoes as a positive thing, but is it always? Or maybe you're thinking of a time where you could have been more empathetic. Give us a call and tell us about it. 1-800-618-8545. You can also send a voice memo to askvoxox.com this episode was produced by Devin Schwartz and it was edited by Megan Kinnais. Melissa Hirsch fact checked it and it was engineered by Adrian Lilly. Our executive producer is Miranda Kennedy. Explain it to me. As part of the Vox Media Podcast network and if you like the show, which I know you do, I have good news for you. Vox is having a sale on membership. If you sign up now, you'll get access to things like articles and even get to listen to the show without ads, all for over 30% off right now. Just head over to Vox.com members. I'm your host Jonathan Hill Talk to you soon.

Unnamed Father Caller (29:06)

Bye.

Jonathan Hill (29:25)

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