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Today, Explained
Why does dating suck for guys?
00:26:59
The rules of romance have changed, and many young men feel they can't keep up. We get some tips from a Texas men's relationship coach.
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- [00:02]
Rohan
Are women aware of unique dynamics or challenges that men are facing that might actually affect their perception of desirability or dateability?
- [00:16]
Jonathan Hill
Hey, y'all. I'm Jonathan Hill, and this is Explain It To Me, your hotline for the questions that matter most to you. We recently got a call from Rohan.
- [00:29]
Ali Volbe
Hello.
- [00:30]
Jonathan Hill
He wants to know why people in their 20s and 30s are dating less.
- [00:34]
Ali Volbe
Dating is obviously a challenging experience for everyone. And one of the challenges that I had sort of noticed is that men are kind of experiencing a harder time dating than women.
- [00:47]
Jonathan Hill
He's asking because he's been having his own trouble on the dating scene. The state of dating, particularly for men, has been everywhere.
- [00:55]
Ali Volbe
Why are men in such crisis? I mean, only 40% go to college, and women with degrees don't marry men who don't have degrees.
- [01:04]
Charlie McKeever
66% of young men between the ages of 18 and 29 are currently single, but only 34% of young women in the same age bracket are single.
- [01:15]
Jonathan Hill
Producer Hadi Miwagdi knows about them firsthand. Okay, Hadi, you were pretty excited about taking this question from Rohan. Why was that?
- [01:26]
Hadi Miwagdi
Well, I mean, jq, there are a few things. For starters, I'm a single guy in his mid-30s, and landing a date has been harder than ever. You swipe, you send roses, you sneak into the DMs. It's exhausting. You know, these dating apps really suck. And on top of all of that, I've heard so often that women have decided to quit dating. They've given up on men, and I guess who can blame them? But our guy on this call, Rohan, I honestly had no idea if he was one of those dudes who's like, uber worried about birth rates or if he was simply struggling to get a date. And here's what he told me when I gave him a call.
- [02:10]
Rohan
One thing that I think is not really kind of discussed enough is that there are a lot of terminology that is being thrown around, like this kind of popular rhetoric of, like, become a high value individual. And so it's interesting now that, like, now there are metrics of kind of, like, what it means to be a high value or low value in terms of datability. If you're interested in someone, what is the way to pursue someone? And how do I at least, you know, demonstrate a bit of interest in a way that is obviously consensual, but, you know, ideally reciprocal without having to feel like I'm either throwing a lot of money or I'm wasting my time? And yeah, I don't know, I was Speaking with someone, someone said, well, you know, everybody's tired because nobody wants to get played.
- [02:59]
Hadi Miwagdi
So, as you can tell, Rohan has spent a lot of time thinking about dating. And that's why I wanted you to give him a call, jq to help him on his journey.
- [03:10]
Jonathan Hill
Yeah. Yeah. And you piqued my interest. I wanted to hear more about how it's going for Rohan.
- [03:17]
Ali Volbe
Dating is obviously a challenging experience for everyone, but some of those challenges are maybe nuanced or they're asymmetrical.
- [03:26]
Jonathan Hill
Yeah, I'm. I'm curious. Do you and your friends ever talk about this? Like, what kind of conversations do you guys have with each other about this?
- [03:36]
Ali Volbe
Yes, we've talked a lot about this. You know, I have some, you know, great male friends, and I also have a younger brother. And I think one of the biggest things that we found is that kind of some of the means or mediums for meeting people are now very inaccessible. So monetization of dating apps is not just a nuisance. It's actually can be financially exclusive. For example, like, if you're trying to meet as many potential prospects, you need to keep paying for a subscription. Right. So that is one thing that's frustrating. Another thing is that we live in a society that obviously has certain demographic patterns, and one of those patterns is that Asian men tend to be sort of emasculated, and I think black women tend to be unfortunately, deemed as less desirable.
- [04:33]
Jonathan Hill
Yeah, I definitely get what you mean. Like, you know, I've seen my fair share of colorism in dating, especially in my early 20s. It. It sounds like you use dating apps. Do you mind telling me which ones you're on?
- [04:47]
Ali Volbe
Yes, I'm on Hinge and Bumble and Coffee meets Bagel.
- [04:51]
Charlie McKeever
Ooh.
- [04:51]
Jonathan Hill
Okay. I'm. I am well versed in all three of these apps. Okay, walk. Walk me through your approach. So, like, say you're on an app. You see a woman you want to match with. Like, what's the next step?
- [05:03]
Ali Volbe
So, you know, I'm interested in the profile, and I'll review it and I'll swipe, and then there's a match. And what I've realized is that it's very easy to actually ghost. I remember I was trying to chatting with someone. I really liked her profile, and I was trying to kind of flirt digitally, try to build a little bit banter. And so we had set a video date, and I had been very explicit about ensuring she was comfortable with it. And then I actually extended a Google Calendar invite, and she marked yes. She confirmed on the invite. So I was going in, you know, with a lot of confidence that this is going to happen. And then when I joined, she didn't show up.
- [05:48]
Corey
Oh.
- [05:49]
Ali Volbe
And so I had texted her saying, hey, look, just want to check if, you know, I'm in this lobby. And she said, I'll be there in a few minutes. And she didn't show up. And I waited, you know, basically about an hour, and then I realized that she was ghosting me.
- [06:04]
Jonathan Hill
I'm sorry, Rohan.
- [06:05]
Ali Volbe
That's all right.
- [06:05]
Jonathan Hill
That sucks. That is, like, not okay. And that sucks.
- [06:08]
Ali Volbe
I appreciate that. I think that's maybe kind of just a function of the way that dating is, that some of these dating mediums, when they're off screen, is that it's very easy to kind of escape accountability.
- [06:20]
Jonathan Hill
Yeah. It's like. It's like people forget. No, you're talking to another person on the end of that phone.
- [06:25]
Ali Volbe
Yeah. And also, like, if there is a concern, if you don't share it, I can't address it. Like, either you show it or you. You tell me about it so that I can engage in that. But without being willing to open, like, you know, open up, without being willing to give that chance or have that faith, it's very difficult to actually demonstrate that.
- [06:46]
Jonathan Hill
So that's kind of like the landscape of stuff online. I'm curious. Do you ever try to approach women like irl?
- [06:51]
Ali Volbe
I do not, no.
- [06:52]
Jonathan Hill
Oh, why not?
- [06:54]
Ali Volbe
Quite candidly, I've kind of bought into, I think, a lot of the kind of contemporary rhetoric that it's not worth trying to make someone uncomfortable in a public space. Now, I recognize it's a public space, but I do think there is a little bit of discomfort as, you know, the fear of being kind of typecast is like, okay, that's a creepy or uncomfortable or weird, you know, approach a weird person. So I think there is a little bit of that. I don't see it or hear it happening so much myself. I would feel more comfortable with approaching, you know, and expressing a bit of interest publicly irl, if that were happening more visibly and audibly to me in public spaces. So it's understanding clarity. Like, okay, are you just chatting for the sake of chatting? Or is there something like, there's an interest. I know that directness or bluntness can maybe be considered as a sort of overly forward, but I think, you know, the reality is that forwardness connotes clarity, and sometimes that clarity is, you know, offers a lot more definition than something else.
- [08:09]
Jonathan Hill
Yeah, I get what you're saying. It's this idea of like, okay, no one wants to be creepy, no one wants to be cringe. But people do want to know where they stand. But you kind of have to be forward in that way and risk the, oh, does someone think I'm creepy? Does someone think I'm cringe? To get that clarity?
- [08:25]
Ali Volbe
Yes, absolutely. And I think, you know, this is something that maybe that there are training programs for or there's like, practical experience. I remember, like, kind of receiving these ads about dating coaches and how that's like a way for some folks to sort of practice skills.
- [08:47]
Jonathan Hill
If you could come away with, like, something after listening to the episode, what would you want it to be? Like, I have marching orders or I feel good about what I've learned.
- [08:56]
Ali Volbe
You know, I actually would not say it's so much guidance. If I could have one request, it would actually be, you know, people who can actually go through, like, role play exercises and really just showcase. Like, this is what, a positive expression of interest. One that is say, you know, an IRL approach that is comfortable and not, you know, creepy, not weird, not uncomfortable. Or this is a way to kind of express vulnerability in a setting without violating the norms.
- [09:31]
Jonathan Hill
Okay, so we're gonna get Rohan some dating help. And look, I'm no man expert, so Hadi, our producer who you met earlier.
- [09:39]
Hadi Miwagdi
Hi.
- [09:40]
Jonathan Hill
He paid a visit to a men's relationship group at a bar in Austin to figure out how we can be Rohan's proverbial wingman. These guys are a bit older and they had some sage words of advice.
- [09:53]
Rob
It's really easy to look at a group of people our age that are talking about the stuff we talk about and go, these guys are so broken. You gotta get kicked in the teeth a bunch of times before you realize, wait a second, here's what it is. And so I would encourage the young guys, find a men's group, even if it's a group of older guys, and go learn from them because they've all made mistakes that you don't need to make. You can learn from them.
- [10:20]
Jonathan Hill
That's coming up. We're going to figure out how to help guys get dates. Stay tuned.
- [10:41]
Hadi Miwagdi
Oh, man. What am I even doing?
- [10:45]
Charlie McKeever
A match?
- [10:47]
Jonathan Hill
It's. Explain it to me. I'm John Quinn Hill. Before the break, we heard from a caller who's struggling in the romance department. And when it comes to all matters of the heart, there's one go to person here at vox. Senior reporter Ali Volbe. Okay, Allie, is Rohan an outlier or do his struggles with dating sound familiar?
- [11:09]
Corey
To you, I don't think he's an outlier at all. Just anecdotally, like so many of the single people I know personally are having a hard time with dating. It just seems like nobody is having a fun time.
- [11:23]
Ali Volbe
It's hard to find the girl that.
- [11:25]
Jonathan Hill
You really want to be with for.
- [11:26]
Ali Volbe
The rest of your life.
- [11:27]
Hadi Miwagdi
A lot of guys have very high.
- [11:28]
Jonathan Hill
Standards for what they're looking for.
- [11:29]
Corey
You looking for something serious, you're looking for a person that can match your energy. And sometimes that means you gonna be single longer than you would like. And we're generally socializing less than even 10, 20 years ago. So it makes it hard to just meet people.
- [11:46]
Hadi Miwagdi
Like playing on your phone when you should be listening to her, but everything she's saying is just going in one ear and out the other because you'd rather be on your phone.
- [11:53]
Corey
We're also living in a way that doesn't necessarily promote connection. Like we stare at our phones when we're on public transportation or while we're waiting in line for coffee. We use self checkout. We order food like via apps and touch screens. Like we wear AirPods in like any interstitial moment.
- [12:09]
Jonathan Hill
When we're in the car, you're on the phone. When we're at the table, you're on the phone. When we're in bed, you're on the phone.
- [12:14]
Corey
So it just like kind of makes it hard to like naturally or quote unquote, like naturally meet people. But like for men in particular, this really seems to be a problem. According to a 2022 Pew Research center survey, 63% of men under 30 said they were single, compared to only 34% of women in the same age bracket. Single men were likely to be looking for love. Like half of them in that same survey said they reported looking for a committed relationship and or casual dates, while only 35% of single women said the same. So you know, there's a desire there and there's a lot of men looking for this, but they're having trouble.
- [12:58]
Jonathan Hill
We all know that TikTok where it's like, you know, if you found somebody on apps, you got the last chopper out of nom. But it seems like guys specifically are having issues. Why is that happening?
- [13:09]
Corey
Yeah, I mean, to speak to the caller's point about like who are creating these rules?
- [13:14]
Rohan
Like what are the voices that are determining desirability or dateability? Should we be really critiquing or questioning what constitutes desirability or dateability?
- [13:26]
Corey
I'm doing a follow up story about Dating standards and expectations specifically. And, you know, like going back to the 70s, 80s, you know, if you would poll women about, like, what they were looking for in men, they're often looking for these, like, provider type qualities of their high earner. They're going to protect, they're going to support. And men just as consistently are like, I just want somebody hot.
- [13:50]
Charlie McKeever
Well, there's a girl at school, she hot.
- [13:52]
Jonathan Hill
And she's super smart, funny and cool.
- [13:55]
Corey
Hot.
- [13:56]
Ali Volbe
Yes, she's hot.
- [13:56]
Charlie McKeever
Super hot.
- [13:57]
Ali Volbe
Nice.
- [13:58]
Corey
And these expectations have persisted, like, from the 80s until, you know, recently, like, these things have not really changed very much. A recent YouGov poll found that men prioritize sex, romance and physical attraction more than women, while women emphasize empathy, monogamy and independence.
- [14:17]
Jonathan Hill
But it sounds like the standards have also changed. What's changed and why have they changed?
- [14:23]
Corey
This is, I think, a good consequence of the MeToo movement, I think, is that there's been like, a wider discussion about, like, what behavior women would consider predatory or inappropriate. So I think there's more of an understanding that, like, you shouldn't be creepy and harass women, which is great. Like, that is wonderful. And Richard Reeves, the expert I talked to, he's the president of the American Institute for Boys and Men, and he wrote a book also called Of Boys and why the Modern Male Is Struggling, why It Matters, and what to Do About It. He told me that the men that he works with, like, generally understand this, like, don't be a creep, but that's getting in the way of them dating. You know, like, they're so in their heads about it. Like, they don't want to come off as like a quote unquote bad guy, that they're just sort of opting out of it altogether.
- [15:10]
Ali Volbe
I think a lot of young women, actually, one of the things they feel about a lot of young men is.
- [15:13]
Charlie McKeever
That they're a bit passive. It's almost like a lot of those.
- [15:15]
Ali Volbe
Men almost don't feel they have permission to be assertive.
- [15:18]
Corey
Something else I've been thinking about a lot is more people are going to therapy. That is a good thing. But out of that has come, like, the emergence of therapy speak, where people are misusing terms that are vaguely like pop psychology that not even the therapist would use. If anyone has what you deem like a quote unquote red flag, it's a no go. And so people are writing people off on some of these red flags. But I think everybody is going to have something that might give you the quote unquote ick or you know, might not be your dream standard and we are more likely to write them off immediately because of that. You got to meet people in person. I think like, again, like apps are fine, but I think it's a tool. You got to go to places where there are people and you're doing an activity that like you, you like. So like you shouldn't go to like run club if you hate running and expect to meet somebody. You know, like maybe you do like, like a wine tasting club or like you go to, you take some pottery classes or comedy classes, whatever. Go somewhere where there's going to be people that like, you can see week after week. Like if you're seeing them week after week after week, like they kind of get a sense of who you are. And I think we just like can't assume the worst of people. Like, I feel like trust is really low right now. Again, another young male reader reached out to me. Like he's 20, 21 and he's just starting to date and he just feels like, like how do I get people to trust me? How do I get, how do I trust other people? And I get it. It's really, really hard. But I think we have to just like assume that people want what we want. Like, we just have to have a little bit of like humanity and flexibility for people and like to understand like, yes, if I'm an inherently like, valued but imperfect person, so is this other person.
- [17:24]
Jonathan Hill
Explain it to me. We'll be back in a minute.
- [17:35]
Hadi Miwagdi
Okay, Be cool. Be yourself. It's just a date.
- [17:44]
Jonathan Hill
This is. Explain it to me. I'm Jonathan Hill and this is producer Hadi Miwagdi.
- [17:49]
Hadi Miwagdi
Hi again.
- [17:50]
Jonathan Hill
Okay, Hadi, our caller Rohan told us he's not necessarily looking for dating advice, but he does want support, like a role playing, public servicey kind of thing to help him learn how to approach women in real life and online. Were you able to find that for him?
- [18:07]
Hadi Miwagdi
Well, I did not find exactly what Rohan was looking for. I'm not even sure that it exists. But as I took this journey to figure out why young men are bad at dating, I learned that men in their 20s and 30s are actually struggling with all of their relationships, friendships, familial and definitely romantic. But eventually I came across a men's organization called Everyman, a for profit company that brings men together to talk about their feelings. And after that I found a non profit group called the Mankind Project. They put on these extensive weekend events with physical and psychological elements all focused on helping men discover who they want to be in the world. And they also host men's groups. And after a bit of digging, I came up with a guy who does similar work in the city I live in, Austin, Texas. He calls himself the Happy Man Coach. And his name is Charlie.
- [19:01]
Charlie McKeever
McKeever called me a dating coach, but I would call myself a confidence coach. And that's important for dating, it's important for relationships, and it's important for life. So I help men own themselves to get to know who they are and to reclaim themselves in their life.
- [19:16]
Hadi Miwagdi
So Charlie works one on one with men. He organizes retreats as well. And this year he's taking some men to Spain. But he also hosts weekly meetups. And he invited me to one at a bar called the Water Tank. It was a busy evening at the bar. There was a game of trivia happening. Charlie had found a tucked away spot at the Water Tank. And honestly, I was pretty blown away by how enlightened my fellow middle aged dudes are. Take Rob, for example. Throughout the night, he offered up bits and pieces of his personal story. Divorce, loneliness, that sort of stuff. And then he'd bring up research that says men should learn to be vulnerable with one another.
- [20:04]
Ali Volbe
And once you decide to do that, it's very empowering to see that other.
- [20:08]
Hadi Miwagdi
Guys are willing to open up as well.
- [20:11]
Ali Volbe
You know, it's not a big cry fest all the time, but it's.
- [20:13]
Hadi Miwagdi
But it's just saying, man, I see.
- [20:15]
Ali Volbe
You and I hear you, and once you feel that way, it's. It's just a really settled, grounded place to be.
- [20:20]
Hadi Miwagdi
They were also speculating on why so many young men are struggling right now. This one guy, Corey, for example, he looked a little bit like a middle school football coach I had one time. Stocky, you know, wearing a University of Texas polo and baseball cap while also sipping on a cocktail. Anyways, Corey, he thinks the loss of organized religion means men don't know where to get their relationships modeled for them.
- [20:46]
Rob
They're struggling because, you know, they, they learning from TV or they're learning from a video game, but they're not learning from mom and dad. They're not learning from seeing relationships actually modeled. They don't have that big brother that's taking them out and going, oh, here's what you do next. Here's this because big brother's in the room playing video games and eating pizza just like they are.
- [21:09]
Jonathan Hill
Okay, so these are thoughtful men. They've struggled with relationships. They've learned a lot, and now they have the Water Tank in Austin. Thanks for taking us there. Hadi. Okay, let's go to Charlie, who runs the group.
- [21:22]
Charlie McKeever
In general, men are very feeling. I'm a big fan of Alison Armstrong's research and in it she says that a man doesn't want to do something that he doesn't think he has a high probability of success for. So at some point he has to learn that he needs to be himself and be who enjoys being in his life and then do things from that place, right. Doing it as a happy, whole contented person. And then, and then he'll have the, the experiences that he has in life. He'll see things from the perspective of abundance, not from a place scarcity and lack. Which is where we come from when we think that we need somebody, we need a person's approval, we need their acceptance, we need that job, that promotion, that, that bank account, that house in order to be okay. And if we can only be okay if, then we're really in a very precarious place.
- [22:22]
Jonathan Hill
Yeah. Okay. This is very good advice, but I understand how it can elicit eye rolls from men who are struggling with dating. You know, I've heard my fair share of like, oh, you need to work out yourself. Love comes in, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I've, like, I've been, listen, I've been in the trenches. I have been on those apps. It is rough out here. Like, what do you say to men who are like, okay, that's fine. But like, yeah, I'm still not getting dates. I still haven't found my person. Like, okay, I love me now. What?
- [22:53]
Charlie McKeever
That's legit, right? That's totally legit. And there would have been a time that I would have eye rolled to. I'd have been like, it doesn't come down to woo woo. It doesn't come down to magic, right? There's no like secret. It's, it's really very logical that when I'm dependent on something outside of me, then I'm going to feel very powerless. And that's just not a great place to be. It's not a great place to live. So now the thing that we, that I also hear from men a lot is they, I hear the word intimacy.
- [23:32]
Jonathan Hill
Oh, they. Okay, surprise.
- [23:37]
Charlie McKeever
They talk about intimacy, they talk about connection. The thing that we don't know, that we don't realize, right, Is that intimacy is not just sex. Right? But at the end of the day what we really want, and this is the part that he's kind of confused about, is that we really want to be seen. We really want to be Heard, we really want to be understood. Right. And, and the interesting thing about intimacy and being seen and being heard, being understood is that, is that if we're in this place where we're protecting ourselves, where we're trying to get from somebody the thing that we think that we don't have, then we actually subvert that connection.
- [24:25]
Jonathan Hill
Charlie, we invited you on the show because, you know, we got a call from one of our listeners, Rohan, and he is struggling to meet women. He says he doesn't usually approach women in public. What should he do?
- [24:41]
Charlie McKeever
Yeah. So if we believe that it's not okay to be us, that it's not okay to bother somebody, not okay to approach somebody, then what we're going to do is we're, we're going to disengage, right? We're going to disconnect. We're going to avoid. Because if the idea of walking up to somebody and talking to them is painful, then we're going to avoid it. We're not going to want to engage in that.
- [25:04]
Jonathan Hill
I wonder how, how do you get past, you know, the quote unquote cringe of it all? I think, you know, I don't know if it's the Internet, I don't know what it is about the time we're in, but it's like any sense of earnestness is considered embarrassing, but it takes earnestness to make the kind of connections you' talking about. How do you get past that?
- [25:26]
Charlie McKeever
Again, this comes back to that self acceptance. I used to go into the barber shop and I would, you know, tell the barber, you know, make me look like Brad Pitt. And they would be like, I'll do my best. Good luck with that. And you know, I like Brad Pitt's vibe, but you know what? He's doing a really good job of being Brad Pitt. Who I need to be is me, right? I need to fully own and be me. The person that I really want to become interested in first, not only right, but first is myself.
- [26:08]
Jonathan Hill
That was Charlie McKeever. Today's show was about men, but in a couple weeks we'll be talking about women and their dating lives, specifically Gen X women and how they're navigating sex. How has your sex life changed through the decades? Anything? Surprise you. Give us a call at 1-800-618-8545 or send a voice memo to askvoxox.com this episode was produced by Hadi Miwagdi. It was fact checked by Melissa Hirsch, edited by Miranda Kennedy with mixing by Patrick Boyd. Our supervising producer is Carla, Javier. And I'm Jonquin Hill. Talk to you next week.
- [26:51]
Corey
Bye.