Why fan fiction is everywhere

Summary

Today, Explained – "Why fan fiction is everywhere"
Aired April 10, 2026, on Vox Media Podcast Network
Summary by [Podcast Summarizer]

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the explosion of fan fiction—how it’s moved from niche internet communities into mainstream popular culture, publishing, and even Hollywood. Hosts and guests unpack its history, the platforms at the center of the movement (like Archive of Our Own), and the resulting cultural shifts as fanfiction becomes increasingly commercialized. Through interviews with journalist Rachel Kersey and scholar Francesca Coppa, the episode explores what happens—and what’s at stake—when a grassroots, gift-driven phenomenon collides with traditional markets and mass audiences.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Mainstreaming of Fan Fiction

• Fan fiction’s moment: The hosts set the tone with references to "shipping" (pairing favorite characters in imagined relationships), and note the collision of fandom subcultures with mainstream media.

  • “Fan fiction is having a moment. The fans are shipping Buck and Eddie and Draco and Hermione... they’re getting Shane Hollander pregnant.” (00:00, Host)

• Rachel Kersey, freelance reporter: Explains the explosion of interest and acceptance in fanfiction:

  • “As soon as I began to read fan fiction, I realized how much it is in the ether of so much of pop culture and the book industry and film and television... people just want to talk about it more and more.” (00:12, Rachel Kersey)

• Big tent vs. focused definition:

  • Anything derived from pre-existing works could be “fanfic” (even literary classics), but that definition may be too broad. The modern understanding:
    • “A more narrow version... would be these transformative works... that exist in the gift economy. And this is key: people are doing [fanfiction] not to make money... but because it is fun or exciting or community building.” (02:20, Rachel Kersey)

2. Brief History and Evolution of Fan Fiction

• Origins in zine culture:

  • Began in the last century, notably with "Star Trek" fan zines.
  • Online fandoms remained isolated until platforms like fanfiction.net brought them together:
    • “If you like Buffy the Vampire Slayer, you might like Supernatural...” (04:16, Rachel Kersey)

• Rise of major platforms:

  • Archive of Our Own (AO3) is now the dominant archive:
    • “It is organized in such a way that it’s clear it was created by librarians... you would be amazed at just how extensive the archives are.” (04:43, Rachel Kersey)

3. From Subculture to Publishing Hit

• Fanfic to bestseller to blockbuster:

  • "50 Shades of Grey" began as "Twilight" fanfiction, opening the commercial floodgates:
    • “'50 Shades of Grey'... completely changed the game.” (05:38, Rachel Kersey)
    • Publishers previously saw fanfic as “the redheaded stepchild... if you were writing fanfiction, it was because you couldn’t come up with your own characters.” (06:27, Publishing industry expert)
    • Now, publishers embrace fanfic roots as a marketing tool.

• Popular fanfic tropes in mainstream books:

  • "The Love Hypothesis," originally a "Rey/Kylo Ren" Star Wars fanfic, is cited as a key example.
  • Book marketing borrows fanfic terminology (e.g., “one bed trope,” “enemies to lovers,” “grumpy sunshine”), and the first-person present tense trend from fanfic is now popular in publishing.
    • “A lot of really popular trends, even in terms of writing, began in fan fiction.” (08:41, Rachel Kersey)

• Diversity and representation:

  • Fanfiction fostered joyous queer romance and diverse perspectives before they broke into mainstream genres.

4. Why Is Fanfic Taken Seriously Now?

• Changing attitudes in publishing:

  • Editors, agents, and publishers are increasingly drawn from people who grew up in fandoms.
  • Fanfic represents demonstrated demand (“millions of views” on stories is a safer bet for publishers).
    • “If you look at some of these fanfics on Archive of Our Own, they have millions of views.” (09:39, Rachel Kersey)

• New questions:

  • Tension between fanfic’s roots in gift culture and its role as a pipeline to commercial publishing poses challenges and generates debate.
    • “What does that mean for fanfic as an art or as a community?” (10:51, Rachel Kersey)

5. AO3, Community, and Gift Economy

• AO3’s mission and ethos:

  • Francesca Coppa (professor, co-founder of Organization for Transformative Works/OTW) explains why AO3 was created:
    • “[Venture capitalists] clearly thought, great, let’s commodify and sell this. And the community that I’m a part of, we believe in a gift economy... We founded a nonprofit specifically to create an archive of our own.” (13:45, Francesca Coppa)
    • AO3 is intentionally non-commercial, echoing Virginia Woolf’s “A Room of One’s Own.”

• User demographics and intergenerational community:

  • AO3 is “12 years old” (minimum age to register, but users range from teens to octogenarians).
  • Kirk/Spock stories from the 1960s are being digitized and archived.
    • “Grandma was writing fan fiction with a typewriter. And like now grandma’s online.” (15:16, Francesca Coppa)
  • “It is overwhelmingly women. There is a lot of non-binary, a lot of queerness... Fanfiction meets needs that the market has up until now not really been very interested in supplying.” (16:45, Francesca Coppa)
  • The community’s emotional depth is a draw: “I didn’t know I could have these big feelings. And we’re like, oh, we knew.” (17:32, Francesca Coppa)

• Fandom etiquette and influx of newcomers:

  • Huge growth has fostered debates about etiquette, membership, and community norms.
    • “Fandom etiquette has been out the window in this fandom. This is literally like fandom 100, not even 101.” (17:56, Francesca Coppa)
    • “The AO3 makes no money, and nobody involved with it gets paid... The root of amateur is amare. It’s love. We do this for love.” (18:15, Francesca Coppa)

6. Capitalism, Community, and the Future

• Resisting “inshitification”:

  • The hosts explore the tension between capitalist pressures and AO3’s community values.
  • AO3 is “structurally uninshittable” because it has no commercial customers or services to degrade for profit.
    • “We don’t have customers, and we aren’t a business... We don’t allow commercial activity on our site or anything like that... We do none of these things that we could do... in order to make a lot.” (20:13, Francesca Coppa)

• Inclusion, learning, and standards:

  • New users sometimes need to learn the culture, but community norms are passed on:
    • “You kind of have to play a little bit by our rules. But they’re nice rules.” (21:21, Francesca Coppa)

• Legal and cultural challenges ahead:

  • Future depends on intellectual property law; tightening could threaten fan fiction as creative remix.
    • “If they change the laws on intellectual property... I think they’re bad for culture. Not just about fan fiction, but broadly.” (22:02, Francesca Coppa)
  • Ongoing goal: preserve stories for future generations, even if the idea is both inspiring and mortifying for some.
    • “Your grandchildren can go and read the fic you wrote when you were in high school... that’s what we want.” (23:08, Francesca Coppa)

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Notable Quotes

• “Fan fiction is having a moment. The fans are shipping Buck and Eddie and Draco and Hermione... getting Shane Hollander pregnant.” (00:00, Host)

• “As soon as I began to read fan fiction, I realized how much it is in the ether of pop culture... I don’t think [this level of understanding] was there before...” (00:12, Rachel Kersey)

• “A more narrow version of understanding fanfic would be these transformative works... that exist in the gift economy... not to make money... fun or exciting or community-building to do.” (02:20, Rachel Kersey)

• “Fifty Shades of Grey... completely changed the game.” (05:38, Rachel Kersey)

• "AO3 is... a non profit, non commercial space... that would preserve our fiction and our hobby without it turning into some tech bros commodified dream." (14:37, Francesca Coppa)

• “Grandma was writing fan fiction with a typewriter. And like now grandma’s online.” (15:16, Francesca Coppa)

• “Fandom etiquette has been out the window in this fandom. This is literally like fandom 100, not even 101.” (17:56, Francesca Coppa)

• “The root of amateur is amare. It’s love. We do this for love.” (18:15, Francesca Coppa)

• “We don’t have customers, and we aren’t a business... We do none of these things that we could do... in order to make a lot.” (20:13, Francesca Coppa)

• “Your grandchildren can go and read the fic you wrote when you were in high school... that’s what we want.” (23:08, Francesca Coppa)

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Timeline of Key Segments

• 00:00 – Shipping and fanfiction’s viral moment
• 00:53 – Rachel Kersey describes the rise of mass fanfic awareness
• 01:37–02:20 – Definitions: broad vs. narrow (gift economy focus)
• 03:30–04:43 – Fanfic history: from zines to fanfiction.net to AO3
• 05:38–07:45 – Commercial breakthrough: 50 Shades, publishing attitudes shift, example of profitable fanfic roots
• 08:08–09:22 – Mainstreaming of fanfic tropes, writing style, and queer romance
• 09:39–10:51 – Why fanfic is taken seriously today, and new debates about legitimacy and future
• 13:15–14:37 – Francesca Coppa on AO3’s philosophy and mission
• 15:16–17:32 – Intergenerational community, diversity, emotional power of fanfic
• 17:50–18:15 – Etiquette, culture shock, and volunteerism
• 20:13–21:50 – Inshitification, capitalist tension, AO3’s non-commercial model
• 22:02–23:08 – Future challenges: IP law, cultural preservation

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Final Thoughts

This episode illuminates how fanfiction has become a creative force shaping contemporary storytelling, publishing, and even film. As commercial and communal forces collide, core questions remain: Can fanfic's gift-driven, inclusive ethos survive the pressures of mainstream success? What do shifting legal and economic realities mean for its future? Whether you’re a reader, writer, or outsider, Today, Explained offers plenty to ponder about how stories belong to—and are reinvented by—everyone.

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Transcript

[Host (possibly a Today Explained host)]

Fan fiction is having a moment. The fans are shipping Buck and Eddie and Draco and Hermione and the other man, and the other man, they're getting Shane Hollander pregnant.

[Francesca Coppa]

When I learned that about that, it's crazy.

[Claire (Today Explained team member)]

I was like, whatever floats your boat.

[Rachel Kersey]

As soon as I began to read fan fiction, I realized how much it is in the ether of so much of pop culture and the book industry and film and television. And I think that we've seen fan fiction really reach. I don't want to say it's reached the zenith because who knows, it could keep going higher. But there is a kind of mass understanding of an interest in fan fiction that I don't think was there before. And I think that because of that, people just want to talk about it more and more.

[Host (possibly a Today Explained host)]

Fanfiction breaks containment. If you know, you know. If you don't. Well, this is Today Explained. Support for Today Explained comes from Starbucks. The energy of Friday is unmatched. With work winding down and plans powering up. And what better drink to reach for than the new Starbucks Energy Refresher? With flavors like mango, Dragon fruit, strawberry, acai, mango, strawberry, you can get the boost you need. On this particular Friday, try the all new energy refreshers at Starbucks.

[Another Today Explained team member or guest]

This tells me that you're not taking it seriously.

[Reader or voice actor for fanfiction excerpts]

No, I'm taking it seriously. I just don't understand why we're on it. It's our first Cat's back on the X Files. This isn't an X File. Sure it is.

[Rachel Kersey]

And Today Explained.

[Francesca Coppa]

What do you want? Aliens?

[Rachel Kersey]

Tractor beams?

[Reader or voice actor for fanfiction excerpts]

Wow.

[Host (possibly a Today Explained host)]

Rachel Kersey is freelance reporter, covers books, writes about fanfiction. What is fanfiction?

[Rachel Kersey]

This is such a fun question because there are a couple of different strains of thought here. So let's start with the big tent philosophy, which is fanfiction is anything that is really derived from or inspired by pre existing works. But if we think about this broadly, basically any everything that we know, including many of the classics, are fan fiction, right? Like we could think recently about Percival Everett's James, those white boys.

[Reader or voice actor for fanfiction excerpts]

Huck and Tom watched me. They were always playing some kind of pretending game where I was either a villain or prey, but certainly their toy,

[Rachel Kersey]

that's Huckleberry Finn fanfic, right? Or even does that really count as well? So let's talk about it because, you know, in speaking with a lot of fandom experts, one person that I spoke with told me she used to want to define fanfic really broadly because it gave it a kind of legitimacy, right? Like these are books that are considered part of the literary canon, that are winning awards. And so fanfic is that too, don't you see? But she came around to the idea that if you define everything that way, then that's such a broad category that it kind of loses meaning. And so a more narrow version of understanding fanfic would be these transformative works that are based on pre existing property that exist in the gift economy. And this is key, the idea that this is something that people are doing not to make money and in fact ought not make money doing this. That it's just they're doing it because it is fun or exciting or community building to do.

[Francesca Coppa]

What is the history of this?

[Host (possibly a Today Explained host)]

Where did this start?

[Rachel Kersey]

I would say last century. There were people who were writing zines, for example, very popularly, Star Trek among them. But those were very specific as to one fandom. People were writing fan fiction about particular characters in one world. And that tradition passed forward to various websites and online newsletters that again were kind of balkanized into a particular fandom. It was only later when we saw broader websites like for example, fanfiction.net that were bringing all of these different fandoms together and saying, if you like Buffy the Vampire Slayer, you might like Supernatural,

[Francesca Coppa]

Carry On My Wayward Son, let's see

[Rachel Kersey]

what these characters could do. Or what happens if we put these beloved characters from different worlds to together and have them meet with one another. And so that brings us to the modern day with Archive of Our Own, which I would say is kind of the big powerhouse archival player these days. And certainly where I look for fanfic when I read it.

[Host (possibly a Today Explained host)]

Explain what Archive of Our Own is.

[Rachel Kersey]

Archive of Our Own is a website where people can post and read fan created transformative works. And it is organized in such a way that it's clear it was created by librarians. Right. You can certainly search by fandom by character. You could also search by kind of story you want to hear or a trope that you're interested in. You would be amazed at just how extensive the archives are on Archive of Our Own.

[Host (possibly a Today Explained host)]

Okay, so Noel King, 2026. I have no idea even a few weeks ago that any of this exists. But you would say, Noel, even if you don't know what any of this is, it is being mainstreamed. It has been mainstreamed into culture. Now you are actually consuming things that started out as fan fiction. What are they?

[Rachel Kersey]

The big one, like the Kahuna that became the juggernaut would be 50 shades of gray. I don't do romance, which was Actually, Twilight fanfiction, you better hold on tight. Spider monkey, 50 shades of grey completely changed the game. It was a bestseller as a book. It became an absolute bestseller as a movie series, and it got publishers thinking. I spoke with romance duo Christina Lauren, who actually met writing Twilight fanfic, and they said that when they first spoke to people about going into the traditional publishing world, and this is more than a decade ago, they were told, don't say a thing about fanfiction. That's a scarlet letter.

[Publishing industry expert or commentator]

I think publishing for a long time had seen fanfiction as kind of like, for lack of a better like idiom, like the redheaded stepchild. A little bit of writing, I think, you know, it was seen as reductive and de. You know, derivative. And, you know, if you were writing fanfiction, it was because you couldn't come up with your own characters or your own stories.

[Rachel Kersey]

Well, that is not true anymore these days, particularly last summer, you saw three works in particular that either had been Draco Hermione fanfiction Potter, or at least a prominent Draco Hermione writer wrote a series that wasn't exactly the fanfic, but certainly the fanfic roots were actually being advertised by the publisher as a selling point. One very famous one is the Love Hypothesis by Ali Hazelwood, which was originally a Rey Kylo Ren fanfiction from Star Wars.

[Reader or voice actor for fanfiction excerpts]

You have that look in your eyes from the forest. You called me a monster.

[Francesca Coppa]

You are a monster.

[Rachel Kersey]

And what is so kind of funny and meta about that is that that is now being adapted into a movie and the male lead is actually married to the actress who played Rey in Star Wars.

[Claire (Today Explained team member)]

I wasn't aware of it. Neither was Days of this connection. I was told it after I was offered the job. That said, by the way, this is loosely where the inspiration came from. And I thought that meant that that was what inspired. Inspired Ali Hazelwood to start writing.

[Rachel Kersey]

If you look at genre fiction these days, publishing houses, when advertising those works, are using very similar tags to the ones that you would see on Archive of Our Own. So they are broadcasting those same tropes as saying, if you like that, you'll find that in this book. Because they realize, thanks to fan fiction, that's how a lot of readers like to find what they're going to read next.

[Another Today Explained team member or guest]

So here are some books with the

[Host (possibly a Today Explained host)]

one bed trope that make me go

[Another Today Explained team member or guest]

a little bit feral. I asked Booktalk for enemy to lovers recommendations where there are actually enemies.

[Rachel Kersey]

Here are eight of my favorite Grumpy Sunshine romance books with the perfect tension and banter. Another thing that I found incredibly fascinating is, you know, a decade, a decade and a half ago, fanfiction writers were writing in the first person, present tense. And it created this kind of urgency and immediate connection. But you weren't seeing that a lot in traditional publishing. Now that has been subsumed by traditional publishing. So a lot of really popular trends, even in terms of writing, began in fan fiction. You might also see, you know, Joyous Queer romance was a huge part of fan fiction before traditional publishing got on board.

[Host (possibly a Today Explained host)]

Huh. So it seems clear to me, based on what you're saying, that writers of fanfiction and the work itself are being taken more seriously than they were, I don't know, 20 years ago. Right. Why? Why do you think that is? Is it just because, hey, some of this writing is pretty darn good? Let's take it seriously.

[Rachel Kersey]

I think part of it is just a broader mainstreaming of fanfic and that people are kind of waving that fanfic flag proudly in a way that they hadn't a decade or so ago. And if we're understanding like the, the structures of traditional publishing, whether it is the editors who are acquiring works or literary agen of these people are people who grew up on fanfiction, right? So they might not have the same hang ups or ideas about fan fiction that previous generations had. They're interested in it and they see it as a legitimate form of writing. But part of it, I think, is because traditional publishing is in some may say dire straits. And there's a broader hunger for IP intellectual property, things that have already been proven successes. And if you look at some of these fanfics on Archive of Our Own, they have millions of views. I think traditional publishing looks at this and says this is basically as safe a deal as we are going to get in terms of thinking that that might be able to translate into book sales. What I find really interesting about it is if one of our elemental definitions of fanfic is that it exists in the gift economy, what happens when fanfic becomes a legitimate path to traditional publishing? What does that mean for fanfic as an art or as a community? And I think that that's something that a lot of fanfic writers and readers are wrestling with right now.

[Host (possibly a Today Explained host)]

Rachel Curzias is a freelance reporter. Coming up, what does all this mean for fanfic as an art and as a community?

[Another Today Explained team member or guest]

This is advertiser content from Starbucks.

[Claire (Today Explained team member)]

Claire, it's Friday. I'm excited. Are you excited?

[Another Today Explained team member or guest]

I'm so excited. I'M so energized. There's so many people I'm going to see. There's so much I'm gonna get done. Yeah, I'll say it. Thank God it's Friday.

[Claire (Today Explained team member)]

You should say it. I mean, speaking of tgif, have you heard of the TGIF effect? It's a real psychological phenomenon.

[Another Today Explained team member or guest]

Tell me more.

[Claire (Today Explained team member)]

In a study at the University of Rochester, they found that adults between the ages of 18 and 62 reported higher energy levels and better moods between Friday evening and Sunday afternoon.

[Another Today Explained team member or guest]

Well, your team at Today Explained is reporting on the news five days a week. I'm sure it's really nice to get that break over the weekend. Is there anything else behind the TGIF effect?

[Claire (Today Explained team member)]

They attribute it to the big break that you get on the weekend, but also the freedom to choose your activities and to hang with your faves.

[Another Today Explained team member or guest]

Well, and on that note, I'll see you on Monday.

[Claire (Today Explained team member)]

Peace.

[Another Today Explained team member or guest]

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[Reader or voice actor for fanfiction excerpts]

Even when the world was falling apart, you were my constant. Today explained that you are a pie.

[Host (possibly a Today Explained host)]

Fanfiction's growing popularity is great for fanfiction, right? Well, maybe clubby fanfic sites like AO3 have found themselves attracting a flood of writers and readers.

[Francesca Coppa]

It's kind of an iceberg, you know, like the Internet thing says, if, you know, you know, I mean, we have, you know, more than 10 million registered users and many, many more unregistered users.

[Host (possibly a Today Explained host)]

Whoa. Francesca Cappa is a professor of English and Film Studies at Muhlenberg College. She co founded the nonprofit organization for Transformative works that created AO3.

[Francesca Coppa]

Why did you start it? So fan fiction as a kind of organized subcultural activity. Right. Had really been going on very strongly since the 60s. Fanfiction writers and fans were some of the first people to come onto the Internet. It's really not overstating it to say that we built a lot of the Internet and this is in the 1990s. And what happened is in the aughts, venture capitalists came. And in fact, the venture capitalists saw fandom and its potential and fanfic and its global reach. And a lot of them clearly thought, great, let's commodify and sell this. And the community that I'm a part of, we believe in a gift economy. We have a lot of community norms that are not capitalist norms. And so when the venture capitalists came, there was a real sense of like, wow. They are literally trying to commodify our hobby and our relationship to each other as a community. And we don't want that to happen. So we founded a nonprofit that specifically to create an archive of our own. Which, if you're a literary person, might echo to you Virginia Woolf's famous essay A Room of One's Own, in which she says, among other things, that a woman needs 500 pounds a year and a room of her own if she is to write fiction. And so the idea was to create a space, a non profit, non commercial space for the community that would preserve our fiction and our hobby without it turning into some tech bros commodified dream.

[Host (possibly a Today Explained host)]

Who is writing fan fiction for AO3?

[Francesca Coppa]

So the demographic of AO3 is so broad, you would not believe me. I mean, it is 12 years old. And I say that because you're supposed to be 13 and older to be on the site and then at some point they click the button and they lie. But there are 12 year olds and there are 85 year olds. I mean, the first generation of women who wrote Kirk Spock, I mean, many of them are passing their grandmothers. Kirk Spock stories were kind of stories that posited a romance between Captain Kirk and Mr. Spock. And women in the 60s started writing Kirk Spock sort of in the late late 60s, early 70s, and collecting them in zines. Not with my ship you don't. In fact, one of the projects that I worked on in the early days of the OTW Organization for Transformative Works was that we were being contacted by women in their 70s and 80s who were like having to move in with their kids or going into nursing homes and they had like 3,000 fan fiction zines. And what do you do when your kids are finding your entire giant zine collection or what do you do with them? You know, Grandma was writing fan fiction with a typewriter. And like now grandma's online. In fact, one of the delightful things is people assuming that they know the age of the person they're talking to and then having them talk about like their grandchildren or that they have a high school exam. And those two people are communicating like they might be having a great time on the same story. And one of them is 16 and one of them is, you know, 60. It is overwhelmingly women. There is a lot of non binary, a lot of queerness, you know, a whole series of identities. Fanfiction meets needs that the market has up until now not really been very interested in supplying. Right. And you see it with the heated rivalry thing, you know, Rachel Reed and many others, you know, kind of learned their craft in a certain way by hanging out at the AO3, and she made a really fan fiction y kind of a book. And now watching the heated rivalry thing is like watching all sorts of people being like, I didn't know I could have these big feelings. And we're like, oh, we knew. And then they're like, wow, you mean there's a whole website full of stories that will give me enormous feelings? And the answer is yes, it's very

[Host (possibly a Today Explained host)]

clear you wanted this to be a safe space for people who write and enjoy fan fiction. And there's been this influx of people relatively recently, and that has supercharged some debates over who is allowed to be here, how you should conduct yourself once you are here.

[Francesca Coppa]

Today we're talking about fandom etiquette.

[Host (possibly a Today Explained host)]

Because the heated rivalry, fanfic writers unionized

[Francesca Coppa]

fandom etiquette has been out the window in this fandom. This is literally like fandom 100, not even 101.

[Another Today Explained team member or guest]

Brother, you need to go back and retake last class.

[Host (possibly a Today Explained host)]

Tell me a little bit of the downside of this thing that felt very, like, private, going very public.

[Francesca Coppa]

I mean, certainly look, in any subculture, in any group, right? People come in and there's a kind of norming process. I will say, I think AO3ish fans are very good at schooling, so to speak. New people who show up about, like, what we believe and what we don't believe. It is very funny when people come into this space and, you know, they really misunderstand, for instance, our gift culture. Just to say this. The AO3 makes no money, and nobody involved with it gets paid. And if they. Look, if you don't want to do what we do, there are lots of other places that you can go. We're not trying to make money. So it sounds weird to say we don't need you, but you can go be someplace else. And we are much bigger than Wikipedia. And in fact, every time somebody adds a story to the archive, it costs us more money. We really believe when we talk about amateur, amateur. The root of amateur is amare. It's love. We do this for love.

[Host (possibly a Today Explained host)]

In the first half of the show, we talked about how publishers, with the popularity of fanfiction and the understanding that, like, a good or, like, a popular fan fiction can have like, a million eyeballs on it.

[Francesca Coppa]

Actually more.

[Host (possibly a Today Explained host)]

A million eyeballs.

[Francesca Coppa]

Like a million people, right?

[Host (possibly a Today Explained host)]

So. But okay, but if you work in publishing, you look at that and you say, well, that's 2 million eyeballs that might buy my book at Barnes and Noble or Waterstones or whatever. So this is a tension we have talked about a lot where you have a culture that is trying to keep itself pure, if I can use that word, versus a kind of capitalist imperative that says, let's make money off of this. And that leads, as we've all learned, to inshit ification, you know, a sort of dynamic we're all familiar with. The thing starts out great, and now it's crap.

[Rachel Kersey]

How do you.

[Host (possibly a Today Explained host)]

Knowing how popular this stuff has become, knowing that there are people with money looking at the people who write on AO3, how do you keep it from getting crappy?

[Francesca Coppa]

Right. So just to say I am not at all worried about the inshitification of the AO3. Tell me why not? Well, hold up. Because it's structurally uninshidifiable, we don't have customers, and we aren't a business. I mean, inshidification is when a business relationship that was once really good for the business and the customers becomes bad. Right. Where you essentially lock in your audience and then you give them garbage. And we just don't have a structure where that will happen. We don't allow commercial activity on our site or anything like that. And so sometimes we have a little bit of kind of kerfuffling over that. When people come in with very different expectations of what a website is, what an Internet community is, they expect to have their data mined. We don't collect data, we don't sell data. I mean, we do none of these things that we could do or that a site our size might do in order to make a lot.

[Host (possibly a Today Explained host)]

And is there tension there when somebody discovers this and doesn't sort of know the etiquette or the history or the how long we've been around of it all?

[Francesca Coppa]

Sure. I mean, but again, you know, give people time. They'll learn. I mean, this isn't like a, you know, I don't know, a mean girls club where it's like, don't come and play. Like, come and play. Like, every fan wants more people to come and, you know. And play. Yeah. You kind of have to play a little bit by our rules. But they're nice rules. They're rules that human connection and giving and, you know, participation and not like the commodification of your friends. Like, these are not bad rules to learn.

[Host (possibly a Today Explained host)]

All right, so you've created this thing that has managed to avoid many of the traps of capitalism meets culture. What's the future of fan Fiction, you know, that's a.

[Francesca Coppa]

You know, a lot of it depends on what happens with the law. I mean, if they change the laws on intellectual property, I don't see them doing that anytime soon. In fact, if anything, they seem to be wanting to tighten the laws around intellectual property in what I think of are bad ways. I think they're bad for culture. Right. The longer things stay in copyright, the less imaginatively engaged other people can be with them. And I think that's bad for culture. Not just about fan fiction, but broadly speaking. Like, it would be awfully. It would have been terrible if Shakespeare had to like, negotiate with Netflix for the right to Hamlet and then didn't get it. Like, that's the world we live in, right? We're like, netflix owns Hamlet. It has a five year option. Shakespeare really has a great idea for it. But like, no, I'm really sorry, because J.J. abrams. Abrams is gonna do Hamlet. Like, that sucks, right? Like, that sucks. That's a terrible culture. And it's one of the reasons that, like, things are bad. The way that a thing stays alive is by being remade. Right. You know, Jane Austen stays alive. Yes, because she's amazing, but also. Cause we keep making like, great movies about her. Right. And you can tell your own Jane Austen story right now. There's nothing to stop you from writing Clueless.

[Rachel Kersey]

Ugh. As if.

[Francesca Coppa]

Right. And that's great. And it drives people back to Jane Austen. The tendency is to want to hold on to more rights and let other people play less. You know, I think they are beginning to see that you would not have some of the kind of great publishing juggernauts if they, you know, sued those people out of existence. I don't know how the future goes. Sorry I'm not a better, you know, projector of the future, but libraries are kind of inherently conservative. You know, like, we're a library, we want to protect the thing and we want it to last. That's our main goal for the AO3, is that we preserve these stories and that they last for. You know, your grandchildren can go and read the fic you wrote when you were in high school. I know a bunch of people are shuddering right now, like, oh, no. But like, that's what we want.

[Host (possibly a Today Explained host)]

Francesca Cappa, she's a professor at Muhlenberg College and one of the founders of the Organization for Transformative works, which created AO3. Danielle Hewitt produced today's show. Amina El Saadi edited Patrick Boyd and David Tadashore engineered and Gabriel Dunatov checked the facts. The rest of us, the best of us. Avishai Artsy Miles, Bryan, Ariana Espudu, Peter Bellanon, Rosen, Hadi Mwagdi, Kelly Wessinger, Dustin DeSoto, Miranda Kennedy, Jolie Myers and Sean on Ramis Firm. We use music by Breakmaster Cylinder Today Explained as part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. To wit, I want to tell you about a new podcast called America actually. It's hosted by Vox.com's aesthet Herndon. The show asks the following question, what will America look like after Donald Trump? President Trump's been President Trumpin on and off for almost a decade now, but we are headed toward the first open presidential election since 2016. Sixteen in a very, very, very different America, that of 2026. You can watch America actually on the Vox YouTube channel and you can listen right here. Support for Today Explained comes from Starbucks. Perhaps you're clocking out today with TGIF on your lips. You can keep the good vibes going with an energy boost with Starbucks New Energy Refreshers. Their handcrafted energy refreshers can be the perfect thing to round out your Friday afternoon with flavors such as strawberry acai or even mango Dragon fruit. Try the all new Energy Refreshers at Starbucks.