Why Harvard is fighting back

Summary

Today, Explained: Episode Summary – "Why Harvard is Fighting Back"

Release Date: April 16, 2025

Introduction

In this episode of Today, Explained, hosts Sean Ramsdell and Noel King delve into the escalating conflict between Harvard University and the Trump administration, highlighting it as a pivotal moment in the ongoing battle over higher education in the United States. The discussion contrasts Harvard's staunch resistance to federal pressures with the cooperative stance of several Florida State universities, illustrating the polarized responses among elite institutions.

Harvard’s Struggle Against the Trump Administration

Sean Ramsdell opens the conversation by framing Harvard University's current predicament as a battleground against President Trump's attempts to exert control over higher education. Initially, Harvard appeared to comply with Trump’s demands, as Ramsdell mentions:

“Harvard University. Birthplace of napalm. Setting of Legally Blonde. Currently fighting back against the President in his war on higher education.” [00:02]

Andrew Jack, Global Education Editor at the Financial Times, provides an insider perspective on Harvard's evolving stance. He explains that while Harvard initially remained silent, recent actions signify a deliberate pushback:

“After the demands escalated from the Trump administration at the end of last week, it switched and decided that it wouldn't accept the conditions that were sought from the government and that instead, it would defend academic integrity and free speech.” [02:10]

This shift included significant administrative changes, such as the removal of senior leadership at the Middle Eastern Studies Center and the initiation of a comprehensive report on antisemitism on campus. Harvard's refusal to comply marked a clear stand in defense of its institutional values.

Columbia’s Concessions Under Pressure

The discussion shifts to Columbia University, which has taken a markedly different approach by conceding to several of Trump's demands. Andrew Jack elaborates on the circumstances leading to Columbia's decision:

“Columbia was the test case. It was one that no doubt the Trump administration considered would be the easiest to go after.” [06:06]

Following intense student protests and public pressure, Columbia agreed to implement measures such as a campus mask ban, granting arrest powers to campus officers, and appointing a senior vice provost to oversee Middle Eastern studies:

“The Trump administration had something like 10 demands for Harvard, including the elimination of DEI programs and the restriction of acceptance of international students who are, and I'm quoting here, hostile to American values and institutions.” [03:39]

This capitulation resulted in the resignation of two university presidents within a few months, signaling the administration's effective pressure on elite institutions.

Financial Strategies of Elite Universities

A critical aspect of the episode examines how universities like Harvard and Columbia manage their substantial endowments to navigate financial pressures from the Trump administration. Andrew Jack discusses the complexities of utilizing endowment funds:

“Taking some of that endowment money to cover the additional risks of some loss of federal funding and indeed the litigation and uncertainty around it... would totally justify them dipping into their endowment.” [09:30]

Despite Harvard’s impressive $50 billion endowment, the administration’s financial sanctions, such as the freezing of $2.2 billion in assets, compels the university to explore various financial avenues, including issuing bonds to raise immediate funds without depleting endowment reserves:

“If you can borrow relatively cheaply with a reputation that's still out there of a great institution like Harvard, get some money in order to prepare for all sorts of uncertainties and short term demands on cash, that's probably a rational approach to take.” [11:04]

Contrasting Response: Florida State Universities' Cooperation with ICE

In stark contrast to the Ivy League’s resistance, the episode highlights the cooperation of at least ten Florida State universities with Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE). Josh Moody explains that Governor Ron DeSantis has mandated that these institutions enter memorandums of agreement with ICE to bolster immigration enforcement on campuses:

“These agreements, he called them force multipliers for ICE... it's a way for Florida to expand its immigration enforcement capabilities.” [18:19]

Institutions like Florida International University and the University of Florida have already seen visa revocations for international students, with over 1,200 students across 180 colleges losing their visa statuses:

“We have counted at least 1200 students at 180 colleges who have lost visas.” [21:32]

DeSantis' aggressive stance on immigration aims to align state and local universities with federal enforcement goals, marking a significant departure from the resistance seen in elite Northeastern institutions.

Impact on Students and Academic Freedom

The contrasting approaches have profound implications for students and the broader academic community. At Harvard and Columbia, students and faculty express fears over academic freedom and the integrity of educational institutions. Meanwhile, at Florida State universities, international students face the tangible threat of deportation and visa revocation, often without clear explanations:

“In some cases they're being targeted for their speech... in some cases they've had visas revoked for crimes committed years, years ago.” [20:17]

Protests at Florida International University attest to the growing unrest among students who oppose the collaboration with ICE, highlighting a national debate on the role of universities in federal policy enforcement.

Broader Implications and Future Prospects

The episode underscores that the responses from higher education institutions are deeply influenced by their public or private status and geographical location. Public universities in Republican-leaning states like Florida and Texas are more likely to comply with state and federal mandates, whereas private institutions in more liberal states may resist such pressures.

Josh Moody speculates on the potential for nationwide enforcement, suggesting that the Trump administration might extend its tactics beyond targeted elite universities:

“I think it is entirely possible that the Trump administration looks at something like this and says, why don't we do this nationwide?” [26:15]

This possibility raises concerns about the future landscape of higher education, academic freedom, and the autonomy of universities across the country.

Conclusion

"Why Harvard is Fighting Back" offers a comprehensive exploration of the current culture war within American higher education, contrasting the resistance of elite institutions like Harvard with the compliance of certain Florida State universities. The episode highlights the intricate interplay between financial strategies, political pressures, and the fundamental values of academic integrity and freedom. As the conflict continues to evolve, the episode leaves listeners contemplating the future trajectory of universities amidst mounting political and social challenges.

Notable Quotes

• Sean Ramsdell: “Fight fiercely, Harvard.” [01:44]

• Andrew Jack: “They’ve got a robust attempt to respond to the Trump administration.” [05:15]

• Ron DeSantis: “We have worked hard to get woke out of our institutions of higher education and to make sure they're focused on the classical mission of what a university should be.” [23:11]

Sources

• Hosts: Sean Ramsdell, Noel King
• Guests and Contributors: Andrew Jack (Financial Times), Josh Moody (Inside Higher Ed), Ron DeSantis (Governor of Florida)

Transcript

[Sean Ramsdell]

Harvard University. Birthplace of napalm. Setting of Legally Blonde. Currently fighting back against the President in his war on higher education.

[Marcos]

What, like it's hard?

[Sean Ramsdell]

You've surely heard about Harvard's showdown with President Trump.

[Fawn Weaver]

He also wants to see Harvard apologize.

[Josh Moody]

And Harvard should apologize.

[Sean Ramsdell]

Just like you've probably heard about the president's wins over at Columbia. But on the far other side of the spectrum, we've got at least 10 Florida State universities. These schools aren't fighting the president. They're going in the complete opposite direction. They're raising their hands up and waving them at ice, saying, come on in. Here's our roster of students. See anything you don't like? Question, detain, go to town on Today Explained. We're going to take a look at the two extremes in this fight, fight, fight at American universities.

[Lifelock Ad]

This episode is brought to you by Lifelock. It's tax season and we're all a bit tired of numbers, but here's one you need to $16.5 billion. That's how much the IRS flagged for possible identity fraud last year. Now here's a good number. 100 million. That's how many data points LifeLock monitors every second. If your identity is stolen, they'll fix it, guaranteed. Save up to 40% your first [e-mail] podcast terms apply.

[Fawn Weaver]

On the latest episode of Net Worth and Chill, we're uncovering the bourbon boardroom brilliance of Fawn Weaver.

[Josh Moody]

I prove that the end result has nothing to do with where you begin. You can make a decision at any point in your life to move forward differently.

[Fawn Weaver]

She transformed Uncle Nearest Whiskey from a forgotten history to a $1 billion empire, rewriting both bourbon and black entrepreneurship narratives. This week, we're diving into her strategic playbook of reclaiming legends and building generational wealth. Listen wherever you get your podcasts or on the YorichBFF YouTube channel. Fight fiercely, Harvard.

[Andrew Jack]

Fight, fight, fight.

[Sean Ramsdell]

Demonstrate to them our skill.

[Andrew Jack]

This is Today Explained. My name is Andrew Jack. I'm the global education editor at the Financial Times, based in New York.

[Sean Ramsdell]

Did you go to Harvard, Andrew?

[Andrew Jack]

I did have a year on a fellowship at Harvard many years ago, yes.

[Sean Ramsdell]

Oh, you did? So does this story hit home for you?

[Andrew Jack]

Well, I mean, I think certainly in sense of. There's some degree of skin in the game, I guess.

[Sean Ramsdell]

Ye tell us what is going on with your quasi alma mater right now?

[Andrew Jack]

Well, Harvard, of course, has been in the sights of the Republicans and Donald Trump for many months. Like other leading universities, Harvard for a long time was very quiet in public. It wouldn't speak out, it wouldn't give interviews. It was going about its business. And then in recent weeks and months, it's taken a number of moves that some interpreted as attempts to suggest it was responding to the criticisms of the Trump administration, but also to try and push back any more aggressive enforcement actions. So it got rid of some senior leadership at its Middle Eastern Studies Center. It's got underway, though we're yet to see it, a detailed report on antisemitism on campus and a number of other initiatives. But really, after the demands escalated from the Trump administration at the end of last week, it switched and decided that it wouldn't accept the conditions that were sought from the government and that instead, it would defend academic integrity and free speech.

[Josh Moody]

The Trump administration had something like 10 demands for Harvard, including the elimination of DEI programs and the restriction of acceptance of international students who are, and I'm quoting here, hostile to American values and institutions. Harvard's response?

[Sean Ramsdell]

A flat no. Which is interesting, right, because I think in this moment, this week, a lot of people are saying Harvard stood up to Trump. But what you're saying is this was a process in which they initially were placating Trump. So do we know where this break came from? Did Trump and company push too hard?

[Andrew Jack]

We don't know the full story, but clearly this is an evolving situation where also presumably the Trump administration officials are adapting in response to a whole series of other actions they've taken, both to the higher education sector across the board and to now something like seven of the most elite universities. And I suspect that the apparent willingness by Columbia in particular to cede to the demands from the administration gave them a sense of increased empowerment. And so they then stepped up their ask to Harvard. Then last week, the American association of University Professors, a network representing professors across the country, themselves, took legal action against the administration, if you like, on behalf of. Of Harvard. So you were getting those pressures from within and pressures from without, and a lot of concern by all those engaged with higher education about the attacks from the Trump administration.

[Josh Moody]

Yeah.

[Sean Ramsdell]

Let's leave Cambridge for a second and talk about what's transpired at other east coast elite universities, Ivy League or otherwise. Let's start with Columbia, because I think that's maybe the most important case. An Ivy League school is apparently ceding now to President Trump's demands to do more to combat anti Semitism.

[Josh Moody]

On the school leaders agree to a.

Campus mask ban, will empower 36 campus officers to have arrest powers, and will appoint a senior vice provost to oversee the Middle east studies.

[Sean Ramsdell]

Department remind us what exactly happened there and how Columbia conceded to this administration.

[Andrew Jack]

You'd have to go back, really to October 23rd and student protests.

[Josh Moody]

The chorus of drumbeats and chanting could be heard for blocks as protesters.

[Sean Ramsdell]

It happened in the middle of the night. Protest smashed windows and stormed the building.

[Andrew Jack]

They barricaded, of course, Columbia in the heart of New York, lots of TV crews, lots of politicians marching through. So everybody trying to turn it into a test case. And it got very much drawn into the debates during the presidential election. The person that heads up Columbia University was a great school. It's been, you know, badly damaged, I think reputationally. And then in the last few weeks, we've seen a series of targeted attacks now on seven of the more elite universities, including Columbia and Harvard, but also Cornell and Princeton and Brown, for example, where they've been told that grants have been frozen and they're bracing for further action by the administration, but still waiting somewhat for communications. And as I said, it looks as though Columbia was the test case. It was one that no doubt the Trump administration considered would be the easiest to go after. And indeed, it's now had two president resign within the last few months.

[Sean Ramsdell]

Do you have, Andrew, any idea what the size of Colombia's endowment is?

[Andrew Jack]

Yes, Colombia's endowment is around about 14, 15 billion dollars.

[Sean Ramsdell]

14, 15 billion dollars. So I think the average person out there might struggle to understand why an elite University with $15 billion in an endowment and who knows what in real estate holdings would have to cave so gravely to the Trump administration to have the Trump administration be making administrative decisions at their university. Can you help people understand what may have gone into a decision like that?

[Andrew Jack]

Well, I mean, the first thing to say that you often hear the pushback from even the very well endowed universities is that, you know, those endowments are a long term investment in their future operations. That of course, much of that money gets reinvested for the longer term. But the surplus, I always hear that.

[Sean Ramsdell]

But I don't understand it because this seems like the break in case of emergency moment. If not this, then what?

[Andrew Jack]

Yes. So I think that there's a few things to say here. The first is that certainly much of the surplus income that's generated by endowments is actually used for financial aid. But the second thing is the Ivies argue that much of the revenue that they generate from their endowment, that surplus is actually used to provide discounted or even free tuition for those that are talented but come from lower income backgrounds. So typically, to blow out the endowments is one difficult Because a lot of those reserves that go into endowments are earmarked by the people who give them, the donors for specific causes. But the pressure that we're seeing, the funding withdrawals, the $2.2 billion now at Harvard, for example, that the government says it will withdraw from the university is actually, it's a little bit unclear, but it primarily seems to come from federal grants for research. So this is not just a subsidy to a rich university to perpetuate their endowment. It's actually money that's very specifically allocated for projects for research for the future of society.

[Sean Ramsdell]

But can, let's say Harvard, in that case, with I believe, a 50 billion endowment, I think the biggest of any research university in the world, can they dip into that gargantuan sum of money to fill that void in these, you know, two, three, four, 50 years of the Trump administration?

[Andrew Jack]

Yes. And I think even at Columbia and a number of the other universities that have been targeted, frankly, despite the complexities we were just discussing, those should provide resources to help them during rainy days. There was a big debate around this after the financial crisis in 2008. There were discussions around it during COVID of course, when students had to go online and classes were cancelled and so on. And I think this is absolutely as if not more of an existential moment when frankly, taking some of that endowment money to cover the additional risks of some loss of federal funding and indeed the litigation and uncertainty around it, and potentially even some loss of donor funding or students is a cause that would totally justify them dipping into their endowment. But also looking at other sources of income, and incidentally, both Harvard and several of the other universities have also in recent weeks been issuing bonds. So they're going to the bond markets to raise money, and that's cash. So that does give them additional reserves to help support or mitigate or prepare to challenge some of this onslaught that they're facing at the moment, which is.

[Sean Ramsdell]

Still funny to me, I guess, because I still can't wrap my head around not dipping into the 50 billion and instead selling bonds they're so nervous to use their endowments.

[Andrew Jack]

Well, of course, don't forget, within the last few weeks, President Trump has decided to wage war on the world with his tariffs. And that's caused, as you all have seen, the stock markets and the bond markets to tank or to bounce around in a very uncertain way. So if you're to have a fire sale of your assets, which what these endowments are invested in, it also perhaps wouldn't be the right moment to do so. So if you can borrow relatively cheaply with a reputation that's still out there of a great institution like Harvard, get some money in order to prepare for all sorts of uncertainties and short term demands on ca, that's probably a rational approach to take.

[Sean Ramsdell]

Yeah, who am I to question Harvard's tactics now that Harvard is saddling up for a fight with this administration, now that they are inspiring other schools to maybe, you know, take their lead? What can the Trump administration do in response to make this uncomfortable for them?

[Andrew Jack]

So to be clear, the first response from Harvard has not yet been legal action. It's not yet launched, as far as we know, a lawsuit, but it has written very robust letters framed in legal langu by some pretty top law firms. So it's very clear they're preparing, they've got a robust attempt to respond to the Trump administration. But even when that set of statements came out that they wouldn't concede, you already saw very quickly the response from the Trump administration saying we are immediately freezing $2.2 billion worth of assets. So that was point one. Secondly, we've heard further pushback and indeed on Truth Social, Donald Trump hinted at some other pot levers and pressure points including reviewing the tax exempt, the non charitable status of Harvard. And this is something that universities have been thinking about or concerned about for a while again obviously, which would have a big financial cost were they to lose that status. So a whole series of statements of potential threats of other levers, both financial and legal that we can expect to see in the weeks ahead.

[Sean Ramsdell]

Andrew Jack never Jack Andrew Read his [e-mail] we@today explained are off to ice you when we return.

[Marcos]

Weight loss. It needs to be fast and sustainable. Noom GLP1 starts at just $149 and ships to your door in seven days. Take it from Marcos who's loving his journey with Noom GLP1.

[Sean Ramsdell]

I'm getting to where I want to be. I'm in such a good right now and I'm very confident that I'm going to be able to continue this weight loss, this journey and really make a true lifestyle change.

[Marcos]

Don't believe it. Take it from Cam who's gaining more confidence with Noom GLP1.

[Fawn Weaver]

I really am starting to feel better. Like I feel a lot lighter, I feel a lot happier, I feel a lot more confident. I just feel a lot more like myself. I don't feel so bogged down every day.

[Marcos]

$149 GLP1 now that's Noom Smart Noom the smart way to lose weight. Get started with Noom [e-mail] that's n o o m.com Real Noom users competed to provide their story. Individual results may vary. Not all customers will medically qualify for prescription medications. Compounded medications are not reviewed by the FDA for safety, efficacy or quality.

[Kenny Beecham]

The regular season is in the rear view and now it's time for the games that matter the most. This is Kenny Beecham and playoff basketball is finally here. Year on small ball. We're diving deep into every series, every crunch time finish, every coaching adjustment that can make or break a championship run. Who's building for a 16 win marathon? Which superstar would submit their legacy and which role player is about to become a household name? With so many fascinating first round matchups, will the west be the bloodbath we anticipate? Will the east be as predictable as we think? Can the Celtics defend their title? Can Steph Curry, LeBron James, Kawhi Leonard push the young teams at the top? I'll be bringing the expertise, the passion, the genuine opinion you need for the most exciting time of the NBA calendar. Small Ball is your essential companion for the NBA postseason. Join me, Kenny Beacham for new episodes of Small Ball throughout the playoffs. Don't miss Small Ball at Kenny Beecham. New episodes dropping through the playoffs, available on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.

[Vergecast Host]

It really seems like tariffs are about to make just about everything more expensive. And so this week on the Vergecast, we're trying to figure out not gadgets, do you need to buy right now before they get more expensive, but also, what can tech companies big and small do to cope in complicated, uncertain times when it seems like nothing makes sense and the money changes every day and all they want to do is ship gadgets? The future of gadgets in a Tariff world all this week on the Vergecast. Wherever you get podcasts.

[Andrew Jack]

You listening to.

[Sean Ramsdell]

Today, explained Harvard, Columbia, sure, but what about everyone else? How's this playing out at state schools in, say, Florida? The answer is very differently. Josh Moody's been writing about Sunshine State schools for Inside Higher Ed Schools you've been hearing less about out with all the attention on the Ivy League, you've.

[Josh Moody]

Probably not heard of some of them because it's the Florida State University System, which has 12 members ranging from large schools with tens of thousands of students to New College of Florida, which has about 800 students. At least 10 of those institutions have signed agreements with ICE which essentially would give their police department, immigration enforcement powers.

[Sean Ramsdell]

And what's going on here with the Florida state schools. Is this a rebrand to like ice? You what are they doing here?

[Josh Moody]

So Governor Ron DeSantis has taken a pretty hard line on immigration and his directive was for law enforcement agencies to enter into memorandums of agreement with ICE to basically gain immigration enforcement powers, which he argues will make Florida's community safer.

[Ron DeSantis]

This legislation will require state and locals to assist the administration in Washington with re establishing the rule of law, with removing illegal aliens from our communities and from protecting public safety.

[Josh Moody]

Basically these agreements, as one expert explained to me, are, he called them force multipliers for ice. So if you wanted but to have more immigration enforcement, you would sign an agreement with ICE to delegate that power locally. So this is just a way for Florida to expand its immigration enforcement capabilities. You know, the governor, as I mentioned before, has taken a hard line on immigration.

[Ron DeSantis]

You are going to see more effective interior enforcement when you have the state and local and the federal government on the same page.

[Josh Moody]

He ran for president previously. I wouldn't be surprised if he does so again. And that could be part of his long term strategy looking ahead. So in this way, he's sort of outflanking Trump on immigration.

[Sean Ramsdell]

And this is just a fun question I love to ask while we're talking about this stuff, where did Ron DeSantis go to school again?

[Josh Moody]

Yale. Right. Or was it Harvard?

[Andrew Jack]

It was both.

[Josh Moody]

Okay.

[Sean Ramsdell]

Anyway, have any students been detained or deported yet at these Florida state schools like we've seen at say, Columbia?

[Josh Moody]

18 students at Florida International University and eight students at the University of Florida have had their visas revoked. We have to make sure we have.

[Sean Ramsdell]

Enough capacity and enough seats for our.

[Josh Moody]

In state legal Florida residents.

[Sean Ramsdell]

I think it's a betrayal to most.

[Kenny Beecham]

Of the student body here.

[Sean Ramsdell]

And what does that mean?

[Josh Moody]

Were they deported, they would have to leave the country? It doesn't necessarily mean that ICE is going to come scoop them up in a van and facilitate that process, but they would essentially have to begin the process of leaving the country.

[Sean Ramsdell]

And do we know what specifically these students have had their visas revoked for?

[Josh Moody]

We do not. But that is not uncommon. That has been the case across, across the US Some students have been targeted for their speech. You look at the situation at Tufts and Columbia where students were active in pro Palestinian protest and the Trump administration has claimed they're anti Semitic and pro Hamas, but has not provided any evidence that they have done anything illegal. So in some cases they're being targeted for their speech. In other cases they've had visas revoked for crimes committed years, years ago. And these Institutions themselves have often been given no explanation when student statuses were changed. And sometimes they've discovered it by looking in their own systems and seeing that those statuses had been revoked. We don't know how many international students have been caught up in this, but one of my fellows, fellow reporters at Inside Higher Ed, is keeping a database, and we have counted at least 1200 students at 180 colleges who have lost visas.

[Sean Ramsdell]

1200 students. Does that mean there are other schools, university systems around the country that are signing these kinds of agreements with ice, that are cooperating with ICE at this level?

[Josh Moody]

Florida institutions are the only ones to have signed agreements with ice. The, the professors that I spoke with, the legal experts for this piece, believe this is unprecedented. Neither were aware of another university ever signing into what is known as a 287 agreement with ICE. It's sort of a new frontier in immigration enforcement on college campuses.

[Sean Ramsdell]

I mean, our students on the campuses of these universities upset to hear that they're signing into agreements with ice.

[Josh Moody]

Yes, there were protests at Florida International University today, which had a board meeting.

[Kenny Beecham]

So now fiu, our university, is collaborating with ice.

[Josh Moody]

The students that I hear from are often upset about what is happening in the state, not just around immigration, but what has been a broader effort by Florida Republicans to really control all aspects of the university, whether that is hiring politicians, lawmakers into the presidencies of these universities, or overhauling general education requirements to minimize certain disciplines like sociology, that Florida state officials have deemed liberal.

[Ron DeSantis]

We have worked hard to get woke out of our institutions of higher education and to make sure they're focused on the classical mission of what a university should be.

[Sean Ramsdell]

How do you feel what's going on at ICU down in Florida fits into this other fight that we're seeing in the Northeast with Trump going to war with the elite universities in Florida.

[Josh Moody]

This is being done by the state dictating to these universities. You need to do this to basically carry out state goals around immigration enforcement. Whereas the other examples at places like Harvard and Columbia. This is the Trump administration more or less trying to bring higher education to heel, starting by making an example of some of the most visible universities, where there have been some of the most visible pro Palestinian campus protests over the last year. People are really freaked out. Professors are worried about academic freedom. But also nationally, people are worried, too, because they see Harvard and they see Columbia being at the forefront of this fight. And even though they are not at all representative of higher education broadly, these are very visible universities, and everyone pays attention to these universities. And if they crumble, it seems only likely that your local institution is going to crumble when faced with the same threats.

[Sean Ramsdell]

I guess on the show today, we've been talking about these two extremes in this culture war right now, you know, on one, the oldest and most prestigious university in the country, Harvard, and then, then over here, we've got this pocket of Florida state schools that are just like throwing up their hands and complying with ice. But where does that leave in your estimation, like everyone in between those two extremes?

[Josh Moody]

Sure. A lot of that comes down to public or private control. And if you are a public university in a dark red state, I would think you should expect that this is coming. If you are at a public university in Texas, I think you might not be that far behind Florida in terms of an action like this. And that, that's what I'm hearing from experts, too. They, they tell me that they expect the same. If you're in a blue state, you are a little bit more isolated. If you're a public institution, there's private institutions in both will have a lot more latitude. But I, I don't, I don't like to speculate, but I think it is entirely possible that the Trump administration looks at something like this and says, why don't we do this nationwide?

[Sean Ramsdell]

What a time.

[Josh Moody]

Absolute.

[Sean Ramsdell]

Josh Moody, though he was quite pleasant when we spoke to him. Insidehired.com Miles Bryan and Devin Schwartz made the show. Miranda Kennedy edited it. Andrea Christensdotter and Patrick Boyd mixed it. I'm Sean Ramsfirm. This is TODAY explained.