Why the Antichrist is back

Summary

Today, Explained – "Why the Antichrist is back" (June 16, 2026)

Episode Overview

This episode explores the sudden resurgence of Antichrist rhetoric in American political life, with a particular focus on recent claims and memes likening President Trump to the Antichrist. The show delves into the religious, historical, and political roots of the Antichrist concept, its evolving role in American culture and policy, and how different political factions are wielding the label today. Vox correspondent Christian Paz and religious historian Matthew Avery Sutton offer both contemporary analysis and a deep historical context, tracing how ideas about the Antichrist have shaped—and polarized—American politics over generations.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Why are Americans talking about the Antichrist (again)?

• The meme comparing Trump to Jesus and resulting accusations of him being the Antichrist have reignited public debate.
• Noel King observes that Antichrist talk, once a fringe subject, is now mainstream:

  "I am old enough to remember a time when we did not in American life talk very much about the Antichrist at all. But the past maybe, I don't know, six months to two years, we do hear quite a bit about the Dark Lord." (03:04)

Social and Historical Factors:

• Christian Paz outlines both "eternal" and contemporary reasons:
  • Ominous global events—war, plague, pandemics, threats in the Middle East.
  • A sense among some conservatives of betrayal or misguidance, framing Trump as a possible false prophet.
  • Direct threats to Israel, a central theme in Evangelical end-times prophecy.

"This signs of plague, pestilence, war, destruction and political transformations and changes are aligning... threats to the state of Israel, which is a key part to Antichrist narratives..." (03:24)

---

2. What is the Antichrist? (04:31)

• The biblical term appears only five times and initially describes a spirit, not a person.
• Over centuries, “Antichrist” has become a catch-all for prophetic villains—the “beast,” the “man of lawlessness.”
• The myth merges references from the Old and New Testaments, especially the Book of Revelation, connecting the Antichrist to apocalyptic destruction and global takeover.

"Antichrist is a term to describe a spirit, person, people movement that try to convince you to worship God differently than the way that Jesus established." – Christian Paz (04:36)

---

3. Who is invoking the Antichrist label today—and why? (06:12)

• Conservative figures (Marjorie Taylor Greene, Nick Fuentes, Tucker Carlson, Rod Dreher) have accused Trump of bearing the “Antichrist spirit.”
• Others, like tech billionaire Peter Thiel, use the term differently—Thiel has speculated figures like Greta Thunberg could be an Antichrist archetype due to their global influence.
• Thiel and others tie current anxieties about AI and world government into Antichrist lore, warning AI-driven international bodies could fulfill biblical prophecies.

"[Thiel's] perspective comes from the sense that AI is advancing, progressing... Wouldn't the Antichrist be like, great, we're not going to have any more technological progress." – Christian Paz (08:30)

"[The Antichrist label] has been used for popes, emperors or kings. And then you have Greta Thunberg." – Christian Paz (08:22)

---

4. The Real-World Impact: Is this just talk, or policy? (10:00)

• Paz notes no direct "Antichrist" policies, but the rhetoric heavily influences Christian Right support for Israel:
  • Many Evangelicals see support for Israel as biblically mandated, viewing threats against Israel as signs of the end times.
  • References to Armageddon (Revelation 16:16) directly inform attitudes toward foreign policy and alliances.

---

5. Has Antichrist discourse changed Trump's evangelical support? (11:07)

• Despite prominent far-right voices associating Trump with the Antichrist, he retains strong evangelical support, though with some statistical slippage.
• The episode points to 2028 succession debates (JD Vance, Marco Rubio, etc.), suggesting that religious identity will remain central in future GOP leadership contests.

"That evangelical slippage is significant. It is at least statistically significant." – Christian Paz (12:00)

---

6. The Antichrist in American History (with Prof. Matthew Avery Sutton) (16:59)

Origins and Evolution

• Professor Sutton traces Antichrist anxiety in America to the late 1800s:
  • Post-Civil War disillusionment, immigration waves, and the rise of the modern nation-state encouraged apocalyptic worldviews among Protestants.
  • Fundamentalism and later Evangelicalism built cohesion around interpreting current events as signs of the end times and the Antichrist’s rise.

"Once Christians start killing other Christians, it became really, really difficult to justify an optimistic, hopeful politics. And so these apocalyptic ideas began to seep into everyday theology." – Matthew Avery Sutton (17:27)

Signs and Historical Precedents

• Early signs: moral decline, global wars, the reestablishment of Israel, and world organizations (League of Nations, UN).
• Leading figures once seen as Antichrist candidates:
  • Mussolini in the 1930s:

    "In the 1930s, Mussolini absolutely seemed to fit the bill... he's trying to resurrect the Roman Empire." (21:57)

  • Saddam Hussein in the 1990s (rebuilding Babylon).
  • American leaders, typically liberal internationalists (FDR, Barack Obama). One in six Romney voters believed Obama was the Antichrist (23:13).

---

7. Antichrist Ideas and Real-World Politics

• The Antichrist narrative doesn’t just shape religious belief, but also mobilizes political action:
  • Ronald Reagan was seen, by both supporters and critics, as obsessed with end-times prophecy—though it did not drive policy directly, it shaped his relationship with the Religious Right.
  • Belief in imminent apocalypse encourages activism, increasing polarization, and transforming political disputes into cosmic battles between good and evil.

"If you believe the rise of the Antichrist is imminent, what comes right after the Antichrist is the return of Jesus, the second coming. And so you've got to be ready for that... you've got to get their asses out there and get to work..." – Matthew Avery Sutton (25:17)

---

8. The Enduring, Shifting Power of the Antichrist

• Each new generation finds new Antichrist archetypes by reading scripture alongside current events.
• The tactic fuels polarization, making it difficult to compromise or debate policies rationally—when the stakes are cosmic, middle ground vanishes.

"It's much more fulfilling to fight absolute evil than to just have a discussion about tax policy." — Matthew Avery Sutton (27:15)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I've been saying since Trump got elected, he's definitely the Antichrist.” — Patrick Boyd (00:17)
• “At this point, it seems two things are true: that he still manages to hold massive amounts of support... yet that support has dropped a bit.” — Christian Paz (11:26)
• “The Antichrist for me is the gift that keeps on giving, that he really works for every generation.” — Matthew Avery Sutton (26:34)
• “It's pretty dangerous because ...once you add this kind of spiritualized language...that completely changes the stakes. And so it makes it much more difficult to have conversation, to have dialogue, to find a middle ground.” — Matthew Avery Sutton (27:15)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:22] – Is Trump the Antichrist? (Noel King interviews Christian Paz)
• [03:24] – Why the Antichrist talk now? (Global events and end-times prophecy)
• [04:31] – Defining the Antichrist: Bible origins and narrative evolution
• [06:12] – Which political figures are using the label, and how (Greene, Thiel, etc.)
• [10:00] – "Antichrist" rhetoric and actual policy (US foreign policy, Israel)
• [11:26] – How the Antichrist label is impacting Trump’s evangelical support
• [16:59] – Prof. Matthew Avery Sutton on the history of Antichrist ideas in America
• [19:50] – Early American signs/figures considered Antichrist (Mussolini, Hussein, Obama)
• [24:07] – How belief in the Antichrist animates political activism and polarization
• [27:15] – The danger of spiritualized, apocalyptic language in political debate

---

Final Thoughts

This episode masterfully connects today’s headlines to a two-century-long pattern of apocalyptic thinking in American religion and politics. The Antichrist remains a flexible antagonist, morphing with each era’s anxieties—powerfully illustrating how theology and politics intertwine to shape both belief and action in American life today.

Transcript

[Noel King]

Remember back in April when President Trump posted that meme depicting himself as Jesus and everyone was like, maybe he's the Antichrist.

[Christian Paz]

We have some major news right now. Mag is now declaring Trump the Antichrist.

[Matthew Avery Sutton]

Whenever I see Donald Trump spiritually, the Holy Spirit always shows me that he

[Christian Paz]

is filled with the spirit of the Antichrist.

[Patrick Boyd]

I've been saying since Trump got elected, he's definitely the Antichrist.

[Noel King]

To Guys, guys, you've been talking on your show about whether Trump is the Antichrist.

[Christian Paz]

I have not said that.

[Noel King]

Yes, he had. America. 250 years of going from 0 to 100 in no time flat. As we wait through a new round of Is he or isn't he the Antichrist? We are reminded that the US Has a long history of declarations and accusations and just asking questions re the beast. Today on Today Explained from Fox. We amble through that history and ask what are we doing? USA.

[Aminah El Saadi]

Support for TODAY explained comes from Fetch. Fetch is pet insurance. If you hadn't figured it out, do you have a pet? According to a study from a pet insurance company from a few Years ago, every six seconds a pet owner in the US gets hit with a vet bill over $1,000. And it almost never comes at a convenient time.

[Patrick Boyd]

So.

[Aminah El Saadi]

So check out Fetch. You get paid up to 90% of vet bills. You can use Fetch for any vet in the US and Canada. Every vet is in network. Go to fetchpet.comsave right now for your free quote. That's fetchpet.comsave.

[Noel King]

support for this show comes from Fetchpet Insurance. Do you have a pet? Every six seconds a pet owner in the US gets hit with a vet bill of over $1,000. And and it's almost always an unwelcome surprise. That's where Fetch pet insurance comes in. Fetch is the most complete pet insurance. Get paid back up to 90% of vet bills. You can use any vet in the US and Canada. All vets are in network. Go to fetchpet.comsave right now for your free quote. That's fetchpet.comsave to.

[Christian Paz]

Explain

[Noel King]

Christian, many people have been asking and so I will ask you, is President Donald John Trump the Antichrist?

[Christian Paz]

Yeah. Imagine. I have the scoop. It was revealed to me and upon this new rock, I'm establishing a new church.

[Noel King]

Vox political correspondent Christian Paz, who's been writing about the Antichrist.

[Christian Paz]

Is Donald Trump the Antichrist? I can't say that. But if you, if you were to look to certain corners of the Internet and of social media and of digital media, people who used to support Donald Trump have been starting to wonder that. It's coming up more and more. For sure.

[Noel King]

Yeah, it's coming up more and more. And I am old enough to remember a time when we did not in American life talk very much about the Antichrist at all. But the past, maybe, I don't know, six months to two years, we do hear quite a bit about the Dark Lord. Why are we hearing so much about the Antichrist now?

[Christian Paz]

I think there's both eternal reasons and specific to the 2020s in general right now, the vibe among a lot of people who believe that the Antichrist isn't a real person or thing to come in the future before the second coming of Christ, feel that things are bad, that the economy is bad, that there's wars around us, that we've lived through life changing public health crises, pandemics. This signs of plague, pestilence, war, destruction and political transformations and changes are aligning. And then you get added on top of that that these wars are specifically happening in the Middle east, that there have been threats to the state of Israel, which is a key part to Antichrist narratives, and that maybe there's a sense of betrayal or, you know, promises not being kept or being misled. And that specifically gets to some of what these far right Trump critics are saying, that perhaps they have been led astray by a false prophet, essentially.

[Noel King]

You said false prophet. I always think of the devil. That's not quite right. What is the Antichrist exactly?

[Christian Paz]

Yeah. So the term Antichrist only pops up about five times in the Bible. And it's never really in the context of an individual. Yeah, it's usually a sense that Antichrist is a term to describe a spirit person, people movement that try to convince you to worship God differently than the way that Jesus established. But then this gets merged with a bunch of other mentions specifically across you know, the Old and New Testament of figures. Like in the New Testament, the apostle Paul writes about a man of lawlessness in one of his letters to the Thessalonians, somebody who would establish themself and claim that they are God, that they are somebody to be worshiped. And then that's also connected to the book of Revelation, the, you know, the infamous apocalypt biblical scripture that writes about visions of what comes before Christ's second coming. Right. It's the end of the world narrative. And then there, there are specific references to a seven headed beast coming out of the sea, to another beast that walks on land, that these beasts are empowered by the dragon, which is understood to be Satan. And there's a lot of specific detail there about these beasts influencing people, influencing the faithful, taking over world governments, taking command of armies. And all of these little mentions, including some mentions in the Old Testament, gets merged into the figure of the Antichrist. Someone who will literally come before Christ returns, before we all get raptured or judged.

[Noel King]

So who are the people talking about the Antichrist concerned with the Antichrist right now?

[Christian Paz]

You have voices like Marjorie Taylor Greene, the former congresswoman from Georgia who has said on social media that Donald Trump carries the spirit of the Antichrist.

[Noel King]

It's more than blasphemy, it's an Antichrist spirit.

[Christian Paz]

You have loud, far right voices, whether that's Nick Fuentes. Now Trump compares himself to Jesus Christ and declared war on the church. He is an Antichrist in league with Israel. Tucker Carlson Here's a leader who's mocking the gods of his ancestors, mocking the God of gods and exalting himself above them. Could this be the Antichrist? Well, who knows? And then other folks on the intellectual part of the American right who have made the case that maybe he's not like the Antichrist himself, but he has an Antichrist spirit about him. Not seeing Trump is the Antichrist, dreher told the Wall Street Journal.

[Noel King]

But he's radia the spirit of Antichrist, no question.

[Christian Paz]

The Wall Street Journal, April 2026. In 18 months, I went from hesitantly voting for Trump to thinking there's a decent chance he's the Antichrist. What a ride.

[Noel King]

There are competing visions among these people who keep bringing the Antichrist to our attention of what the Antichrist is. Marjorie Taylor Greene seemed upset when President Trump tweeted a meme of himself appearing to be Jesus Christ. But you also have Thiel, the tech billionaire who did a very interesting interview with Ross Douthit in which he seemed to suggest, if I was hearing him correctly, that like Greta Thunberg might be

[Christian Paz]

the antichrist in the 17th century.

[Aminah El Saadi]

I can imagine a Dr. Strangelove, Edward Teller type person taking over the world.

[Christian Paz]

In our world, it's far more likely

[Aminah El Saadi]

to be Greta Thunberg.

[Noel King]

How to say Marjorie Taylor Greene's interpretation of the Antichrist differ from Peter Thiel's? Because they are talking about two different people, two different things, Right?

[Christian Paz]

They're talking and it's funny because historically antichrists are like popes, emperors or kings. And then you have Greta Thunberg.

[Matthew Avery Sutton]

This is all wrong.

[Christian Paz]

The Peter Thiel interpretation of the Antichrist, it's more rooted in the expectation that this Antichrist figure will command world Governments will command world armies, will essentially become a form of totalitarianism or authoritarianism where no one can oppose or resist this. And his perspective comes from the sense that AI is advancing, progressing. He helped to contribute to this. Right. Wouldn't the Antichrist be like, great, we're not going to have any more technological progress. But I really like what Palantir has done so far. Right? I mean, isn't that a concern? Wouldn't that be the, you know, the irony of history would be that the man publicly worrying about the Antichrist accidentally hastens his or her arrival.

[Aminah El Saadi]

They're all, look, there are all these different scenarios. I obviously don't think that that's what I'm doing.

[Christian Paz]

What he's concerned about, however, is that this kind of advanced development of AI will be used as an excuse by governments, by international organizations to call for stronger and stricter regulations and oversight of how AI is developed, which then leads to the rise of a world government that uses artificial intelligence or some kind of international power that wields artificial intelligence as controls it and manipulates it under the guise of regulation or safety.

[Noel King]

Is this something that is driving any policy at this point?

[Christian Paz]

At this point, it's difficult for me to point to anything that is, you know, policy that's either pro or anti Antichrist. What I can say is so much of the foreign policy around supporting Israel specifically fits into some of these general concerns about Antichrist for a lot of right leaning Republican or conservative evangelical Christians. For example, part of why they are so loyal and want their representatives to be supportive and strong allies of Israel. Specifically, part of Revelation mentions that armies of the world will gather in the Valley of Armageddon to try to wipe out Israel.

[Noel King]

Then they gathered the kings together in the place that in Hebrew is called armageddon. Revelation, chapter 16, verse 16.

[Christian Paz]

That is a connection between religion and public policy, or in this case, foreign policy, with some of the pro Israel evangelical voices that are so concerned for Israel's safety, in part because of this theology.

[Noel King]

But even now in the present day, we have a President of the United States whose former allies, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Tucker Carlson, are openly comparing him to the Antichrist. What does that mean for President Trump? Does this mean his evangelical supporters abandon him or criticize him or see him differently?

[Christian Paz]

Yeah. At this point, it seems two things are true, that he still can, you know, manages to hold massive amounts of support, more massive levels of support from evangelical Christians. They are still, from what I've seen from polling of various religious denominations, they are still the subset of Christians and of believers who are most supportive of Donald Trump and of his policies, of his presidency. Yet that support has dropped a bit. It's not as high as it was a year ago. His support among other denominations has dropped as well. But that evangelical slippage is significant. It is at least statistically significant. Whether that means that you'll see even more opposition on religious grounds to Trump, I'm not sure about that. I think what'll be more interesting is seeing who he ends up trying to set up as his successor. If it is JD Vance or if it is Marco Rubio, or if it's somebody we don't know about, they all have very different bases of power and support. You know, if you're thinking about religious denominations, traditionally Marco Rubio has had more of the trust of evangelical Christians than maybe J.D. vance. And now J.D. vance is trying to carve out this right trad Catholic kind of base of support. I think that's why religion is going to continue to be such a central storyline in who succeeds Donald Trump and what we see in 2028.

[Noel King]

That was Vox's Christian Pause. Coming up, a brief history of the Antichrist in American politics.

[Aminah El Saadi]

Support for the show comes from Trust and Will. A death in a family can flip your world upside down and the last thing you want to deal with during it all is confusing paperwork and tough legal decisions. Estate planning can take away some of that anxiety and Trust and Will says they can help you create an estate planning that covers child and pet guardianship, asset distribution and healthcare directives. Trust and Will offers affordable attorney designed estate plans that you can create in as little as 30 minutes. You'll have access to attorney support as an add on to your plan and you can easily update your plan at every life stage or transition. That's because Trust and Will's platform keeps everything organized, updated and ready so your loved ones never face the burden alone. Trust and Will Affordable Estate Plans Priceless peace of mind go to trustandwill.com today and get 20% off. That's trustandwill.com today to get your 20% off. Trustandwill.com today.

[Noel King]

Support for Today Explained comes from Bombas. Spring is here. Perhaps you're going outside, running, walking just to get active again. It's the perfect time to upgrade your everyday go tos with Bombas. Bombas sports socks are super comfortable and designed with sports specific tech for running, cycling, yoga, hiking, you name it. They also make great basics. Bombas underwear and T shirts are soft, high quality and breathable. Here's Nisha Chital. I would definitely recommend Bombas to a friend. They're so comfortable. They're great socks. They have so many different colors and styles. They really work for everything. It's not just about the comfy clothes and the accessories. Here's a reminder of their mission. For every item that you buy, Bombus says they donate an essential clothing item to someone facing housing insecurity. They say they've done this 150 million times and counting. You can go to bombas.com explained and use the code explained for 20 off your first purchase. That's B O-M-B-A S.com explained. Code explained at checkout.

[Aminah El Saadi]

Support for the show today comes from whatnot. And they provided me a pronunciation key that says what not. That's how it's pronounced. What not, but it's one word and whatnot. If you sell products online in a restore full time or as a side hustle, you know how difficult it can be to get noticed. Gosh, you know how difficult it can be to get noticed generally. But imagine if you sell products online or in a store. You could spend hours sourcing inventory, setting up your storefront and creating listings. And then you're left waiting, hoping the right customer eventually comes across what you're selling. Whatnot wants to change that model. Whatnot is the largest dedicated live shopping platform, whether it's beauty, collectibles, electronics, luxury, fashion, even cookies. You guys. And our colleague Claire White has tried Whatnot.

[Christian Paz]

I had a really great time going through the variety of auctions that they had on Whatnot.

[Noel King]

It's not just clothes, it's not just

[Christian Paz]

jewelry, it's not just tech even, but

[Noel King]

vintage china antique pieces.

[Christian Paz]

Places around the world where folks are

[Noel King]

selling knickknacks from their vintage stores, from

[Christian Paz]

their archive, whatever it is.

[Noel King]

There's a ton of variety on Whatnot

[Christian Paz]

just beyond what you would think for an auction house.

[Aminah El Saadi]

Search Whatnot. W H a t N o t. One word in the app store download and you can start selling right away.

[Patrick Boyd]

It took me a while to figure it out, but this is today explained.

[Christian Paz]

I can't believe you figured it out.

[Matthew Avery Sutton]

It out. Matthew Avery Sutton and I'm a professor of history at Washington State University. I teach courses on religion and politics and my most recent book is called Chosen How Christianity Made America and Americans Remade Christianity.

[Noel King]

All right, so as we all know, America is approaching its 250th birthday, 250 years of history behind us. Where would you start? The story of the Antichrist in American politics.

[Matthew Avery Sutton]

Boy, we could Certainly start that story, you know, really in biblical times, which of course has nothing to do with North America. But in the North American context, I think the way we think of the Antichrist today really begins in the 1880s and the 1890s. And it has to do with the rise of the modern nation state, with global militarization, and the kind of creation of the modern world order. So Americans, you know, had been pretty optimistic, forward thinking. They believed that they were building the kingdom of God on earth, that they were kind of creating utopia. Then they hit the Civil War. They were dealing with this problem, which was the growing divide over the issue of slavery. And once Christians start killing other Christians, it became really, really difficult to justify an optimistic, hopeful politics. And so these apocalyptic ideas began to seep into everyday theology, began to seep into everyday church life. And then they hit the Industrial Revolution. And then they saw all these immigrants come over, many of whom were Catholics and Jews. And so for Protestants who were used to calling the shots, who were controlling much of the destiny of the United states through the 19th century, a small group of them began to rethink their theology and began to think, you know what, maybe we're not building the kingdom of God. Maybe we're in fact preparing for Armageddon. We're preparing for the Antichrist. And then they began to scour the news and to study events and to align them with the Bible, to try to make sense of what they saw happening all around them. So as. As the small group of Protestants begins to reconceptualize what they thought of as the end times, at the core of their story was this concept of the Antichrist, this global leader who was going to take power, who was going to oppress Christians, who was going to transform the world. And so what they did is they began holding conferences and writing books and debating these kinds of issues and arguing about who might be the Antichrist, where might he appear, how do we know how close we are to the end times? And they ended up launching a movement. And then by about World War I, they gave the movement a name, and that was fundamentalism. And then they rebrand themselves in World War II as evangelicals. And so the fundamentalists and evangelicals are the folks who really are mobilizing around this idea that the Antichrist is out there somewhere and we better be ready for him.

[Noel King]

When Americans in the early days, so the 1800s, early 1900s, were thinking about the Antichrist. What were the signs that they were looking for?

[Matthew Avery Sutton]

There are a handful of signs. Some of them are really hard to demonstrate. So they talked about, you know, falling away from true Christianity. But of course, you could make that argument in every generation. The classic is, you know, immorality, that the kids today just aren't following the rules like their parents. So, you know, that also works for every generation. But the much more interesting one was the return of Jews to Palestine and the reconstruction of Israel as a nation state that the fundamentalists began predicting this in the 1880s, 1890s. So as the Zionist movement takes off and then Israel is formed in the late 1940s, it becomes absolutely clear to them that everything they've been predicting is correct. The Jewish democratic state begins its new life in the ancient homeland of the Jews. This is what they have waited for, this is what they have prayed for. The other thing that they're expecting is the rise in wars and rumors of wars. That was something Jesus had told his disciples to expect in the last days. And so World War I becomes a moment to basically to crow about how they got it right. And then Certainly World War II is another one. And then the creation of the League of Nations and then the United Nations. After the war, the statesmen of the world, headed by President Wilson, sought to prevent its repetition by founding a League of Nations. It is now my duty, my honour and my privilege in the chair to call for a vote on the approval of the charter of the United Nations. These kind of global international organizations that would create the mechanism by which the Antichrist could take power, could seize power. So all of these things become huge, huge, you know, blinking red lights, telling fundamentalists and evangelicals that they've got it right, that their reading of the Bible is lining up with world events.

[Noel King]

When we look back to the times in which these two terms emerge, Evangelical fundamentalist, who were the figures, who were people saying, oh, this person might be the Antichrist, or this might be the evidence that, you know, we're approaching revelation.

[Matthew Avery Sutton]

So there were two ways they conceptualized it. One was to identify the actual Antichrist. But the problem with doing that was that the Antichrist was going to be a deceiver. Like, that's what the Bible says. And so they knew it was going to be hard to figure out exactly who it was, but they would still speculate. And often from generation to generation, there are specific figures. So in the 1930s, Mussolini absolutely seemed to fit the bill that he was. Yeah, he's trying to resurrect the Roman Empire. That seemed to be one of the key characteristics of the Antichrist.

[Aminah El Saadi]

Mussolini the would be Caesar, the founder of fascism started with an armed gang and finally built it into an army, seizing power after a sham march on Rome in 1922.

[Matthew Avery Sutton]

We jump forward to the 1990s, and perhaps it's Saddam Hussein because he's trying to rebuild Babel, the ancient biblical city. But there's also then this idea, what about American leaders? What role are they playing? And so many of them believe that while the Antichrist probably would not be an American because biblical authors had no concept of the United States, of course they thought American leaders might be complicit, that they might help facilitate the rise of the Antichrist. And often it was liberals, it was internationalists. So Franklin roosevelt, Barack Obama.

[Christian Paz]

13% of Americans, 1 in 6, and 22% of Romney voters believe Obama is the Antichrist.

[Aminah El Saadi]

Incredible.

[Christian Paz]

You are Antichrist. You are Antichrist. You are Antichrist.

[Matthew Avery Sutton]

Those kinds of folks got a lot of traction among fundamentalists and evangelicals as potential allies of the Antichrist, and usually unwittingly, not, you know, intentionally working with the antichrist, but is helping set the stage for Americans to lose their sovereignty to this diabolical global new world leader.

[Noel King]

It's debatable, I think, how seriously we should take various American leaders being called the Antichrist. It does make me wonder, though, whether this interest in the Antichrist has actually shaped American politics. Did we hit a point in the country's history? It was like, oh, FDR is the Antichrist, and thus we must X, Y and z.

[Matthew Avery Sutton]

Working hand in hand with the rise of the religious right was the ascendancy of Ronald Reagan.

[Aminah El Saadi]

There's a great spiritual awakening in America.

[Matthew Avery Sutton]

Ronald Reagan was actually a natural partner for many of these folks because he seemed to be obsessed with ideas of the Antichrist and with the end times. Somehow, eschatology and Bible prophecy came up, and Ronald Reagan made the comment that we could be the generation that sees Armageddon. And so while it certainly was not shaping his policy, it was an obsession for him. And it was something that his critics often pointed to to criticize him and to say that, you know, he was working too closely with these evangelical freaks and was too obsessed with these kinds of issues.

[Aminah El Saadi]

Reports of Mr. Reagan's references to Armageddon

[Christian Paz]

has caused about 100 mainstream Protestant, Roman

[Aminah El Saadi]

Catholic, and Jewish leaders to sign a statement of.

[Christian Paz]

The statement says that the Armageddon theology is a false reading of the Bible

[Aminah El Saadi]

and that belief in it diminishes concern about the possibility of nuclear war.

[Christian Paz]

New York Times, 1984.

[Matthew Avery Sutton]

In my scholarship, I argue that, in fact, that it's extraordinarily important for politics that certainly in the 1930s, that when we have the rise of the modern New Deal liberal state, it's no coincidence that we have the rise of fundamentalist anti liberalism and that is grounded in this kind of apocalyptic theology. But we see it again more recently with the rise of the religious right. And the reason it's so important is because it becomes a tool for mobilizing people for action. That if you believe the rise of the Antichrist is imminent, what comes right after the Antichrist is the return of Jesus, the second coming. And so you've got to be ready for that and you've got to be ready for the judgment that's going to come. And so you want Jesus to find you being an active and good and faithful servant, somebody who's using your gifts to do everything you can to prepare the rest of the world for the end times. And so that means that folks who are true believers in this apocalyptic Antichrist theology, rather than just kind of wait with indifference because it's going to happen, instead they have to get their asses out there and get to work because they know that Jesus is coming at any moment and he's going to expect them to be doing everything they can to prepare the way for his second coming. And that means fighting the Antichrist.

[Noel King]

Okay, so what's happening right now in evangelical communities? How would you situate this in the long history of what Americans have been thinking about the Antichrist?

[Matthew Avery Sutton]

Yeah, so the Antichrist for me is the gift that keeps on giving, that he really works for every generation. And so it's always about Christian folks reading their Bibles and aligning them with world events and trying to make the two compatible. And so with each generation, it's going to be a different idea about what the Antichrist is. It's going to be a different idea about where history is going, where the trajectory of the nation falls on that. But I don't know that it's necessarily different. It's just the latest version of many, many, many, many versions of the same story, that there's political mo, there's expectations about change, and then they're second guessing because things don't always work out exactly as you expect them to.

[Noel King]

And so what does that mean for our politics?

[Matthew Avery Sutton]

Unfortunately, it's pretty dangerous because what it does is it fuels and increases polarization. Because rather than having policy debates where you can just agree to disagree or talk about what is going to be the best policy for the greatest number of people, instead once you add this kind of spiritualized language. Whether or not supporting the United nations becomes a question of whether or not you're supporting the Antichrist, then that completely changes the stakes. And so it makes it much more difficult to have conversation, to have dialogue, to find a middle ground, and to work with your adversaries. It's much more fulfilling to fight absolute evil than to just have a discussion about tax policy.

[Noel King]

Matthew Avery Sutton is a professor of history at Washington State University. His most recent book is Chosen How Christianity Made America and Americans Remade Christianity. Danielle Hewitt produced Today's show, and Aminah El Saadi edited Patrick Boyd and David Tadashore engineered and Gabriel Donatov checked the facts. I'm Noel King. It's Today Explained.

[Christian Paz]

With Fin, we've built the number one AI agent for customer service. It solves up to 90% of queries for businesses, tops all the performance benchmarks in the G2 leaderboard, and it comes with a million dollar guarantee. Check it out at Fin AI

[Patrick Boyd]

support for the show comes from Shopify. Every worthwhile journey starts with a handful of what ifs, but one day you'll be able to look back and realize that all those what ifs were small steps towards turning your dream into a thriving business. Shopify can help you get there. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US join them and turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com Vox Business go to shopify.com VoxBusiness that's shopify.com VoxBusiness.