Will Syrians return home?

Summary

Today, Explained – Episode: "Will Syrians Return Home?"

Released on December 12, 2024

Hosts: Sean Rameswaram and Noel King
Producer: Vox Media Podcast Network

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Introduction: Omar al Shugri’s Journey

The episode opens with a poignant reflection from Omar al Shugri, a 29-year-old Syrian who currently resides in Stockholm, Sweden. Omar recounts his harrowing experiences during the Syrian civil war, including his imprisonment and eventual escape.

Omar al Shugri [00:01]: "The most beautiful moment was when I was seeing the prisoners being liberated from Aleppo and further to Hama and to Homs. And then when they came close to Syed Naya prison, it got really serious in my heart because it was a place that I know very well. I spent almost a year there."

Omar describes the emotional turmoil he felt witnessing the fall of Syria's dictatorship.

Omar al Shugri [00:28]: "I didn't know that a human being could be so happy before. I'm telling you, the joy was so unmatchable. I wanted to laugh so hard, I wanted to jump. But I ended up crying like a baby and I cry of joy. The joy of being free. It's the first time I feel it."

Noel King introduces Omar’s current dilemma: choosing between a stable life in Sweden and the possibility of returning to a newly freed Syria.

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Omar’s Harrowing Experience in Sednaya Prison

The narrative delves into Omar’s past, detailing his imprisonment for protesting against Bashar Al Assad's regime. At the age of 15, Omar was detained and subjected to severe torture in Sednaya prison, one of Syria’s most brutal detention centers.

Omar al Shugri [03:15]: "Pain makes you say anything. You don't think about the long term consequences of your false confession, that you're going to be sentenced to execution or life in prison... So I gave them the false confession they wanted."

Omar describes the relentless torture and the psychological impact of being transferred through ten different prisons.

Omar al Shugri [04:35]: "When I was in Sayyidina, I was... I was a kid because I was taken to prison first time when I was 15... I have two homes, one in Syria and one in Sweden. Both are very important to me."

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Escape and Life in Sweden

Omar narrates his miraculous escape from what was meant to be his execution day. His mother orchestrated a daring rescue, smuggling him out just before his scheduled execution.

Omar al Shugri [09:11]: "When she told me they smuggled me out of prison, I got so mad because I didn't get smuggled out of prison. I was like, executed. They shot, they put me, they executed me... So I was smuggled out of prison on my execution day, June 11, 2015."

Nine years after his escape, Omar has integrated into Swedish society, working for the Syrian Emergency Task Force and a tech company specializing in self-driving cars. However, his heart remains divided between his life in Sweden and his yearning to rebuild his homeland.

Omar al Shugri [10:04]: "What's important for me is to rebuild Syria, contribute with the education I have, with the knowledge I have gained and the experience I have from democracies to help Syria."

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The Broader Syrian Refugee Crisis

Noel King transitions the conversation to the larger context of the Syrian refugee crisis. The discussion is enriched by insights from Dr. Amani Kadour, Director of Syria Relief and Development, and an associate faculty member at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health.

Dr. Amani Kadour [20:20]: "This is a country that has probably 6 to 7 million refugees outside of the country, one of the highest for those that have been following Syria, Syria for the past decade."

The episode explores the displacement statistics, highlighting that nearly 4 million Syrian refugees have sought asylum in neighboring countries like Turkey, Jordan, and Lebanon, with smaller numbers moving to Europe, the UK, the US, and Canada.

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Current Conditions in Syria and Prospects for Return

The podcast delves into the conditions in Syria post-Assad, addressing the challenges that potential returnees face. Despite the fall of the Assad regime, Syria remains grappling with severe economic instability, decimated infrastructure, and ongoing security concerns.

Dr. Amani Kadour [25:54]: "Inflation has hit the country hard. So generally economic insecurity in Syria and outside, which is also adds to some of the push pull factors for some Syrians that have struggled also outside of the country."

Omar al Shugri emphasizes the resilience and hope among Syrians but remains cautious about the safety and feasibility of returning.

Omar al Shugri [14:24]: "I think it's too early for anyone to return. I won't push people to do it yet. I won't do it myself."

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Policy Responses and Future Outlook

The episode examines how various countries are re-evaluating their migration and asylum policies in light of the changing political landscape in Syria. Countries like Germany, Holland, and Denmark are considering adjustments to facilitate safe and dignified returns, though skepticism remains high due to ongoing instability.

Dr. Amani Kadour [24:53]: "I am very cautious about what this means. When many say they want to return. Is the time necessarily now? No."

The hosts discuss the emotional and practical challenges faced by Syrians contemplating a return, balancing familial bonds and the desire for reconstruction against the uncertainties of Syria’s future.

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Personal Stories and Human Impact

Throughout the episode, personal anecdotes underscore the human aspect of the refugee crisis. Omar’s longing for his homeland, despite building a new life in Sweden, mirrors the sentiments of millions of displaced Syrians worldwide.

Omar al Shugri [10:04]: "I feel home in Stockholm. This is reality. I can change. So I have two homes, one in Syria and one in Sweden."

The conversation highlights the psychological toll of displacement, the struggle to maintain cultural identity, and the difficult choices refugees face regarding repatriation.

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Conclusion: The Path Forward

As the episode concludes, hosts Sean Rameswaram and Noel King reflect on the complex interplay of hope, resilience, and uncertainty that characterizes the Syrian refugee experience. The path to rebuilding Syria and facilitating safe returns remains fraught with challenges, requiring coordinated international efforts and a commitment to sustainable development.

Omar al Shugri [22:50]: "My father was killed so we have freedom. My brother, my other brother were killed to have freedom... I would definitely never settle for less than having a real democracy in Syria."

The episode emphasizes the importance of supporting Syrian refugees while advocating for a peaceful and democratic Syria, ensuring that the sacrifices made during the conflict lead to a better future for all Syrians.

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Credits:
Produced by Avishai Artsy
Edited by Aminah El Sadi
Fact-checked by Laura Bullard
Mixed by Andrea Christian's daughter and Rob Byers
Host: Noel King

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Support for Today, Explained comes from Webroot and other sponsors. Advertisements and sponsor messages have been omitted from this summary to focus on the episode’s content.

Transcript

[Omar al Shugri]

The most beautiful moment was when I was seeing the prisoners being liberated from Aleppo and further to Hama and to Homs. And then when they came close to Syed Naya prison, it got really serious in my heart because it was a place that I know very well. I spent almost a year there.

[Noel King]

That was when Omar al Shugri was 19 years old. Today he's 29. He's living and working in Stockholm and he was watching as Syria's dictatorship fell.

[Omar al Shugri]

I didn't know that a human being could be so happy before. I'm telling you, the joy was so unmatchable. I wanted to laugh so hard, I wanted to jump. But I ended up crying like a baby and I cry of joy. The joy of being free. It's the first time I feel it.

[Noel King]

Now Omar has a choice to make his happy life in Sweden or his newly freed country. Coming up on TODAY Explained.

[Dr. Amani Kadour]

Support for TODAY Explained comes from Webroot. Webroot believes in cybersecurity made smarter, creating software that harnesses the cloud and AI to stop threats in real time. It was designed to make your digital life better by protecting you from all kinds of threats. You can live a better digital life with Webroot. And now you can get 60% off an exclusive discount for our listeners when you go to ww. That's wwe.com today.

[Unnamed Tech Industry Expert]

2025 is going to be a huge year for the tech industry. AI is either going to take over or maybe kind of start to go away. Regulation is going to continue and change the tech industry or maybe a new president is going to change his mind about how all that is supposed to work. We're going to get new gadgets and new apps and new social platforms competing for our time and attention and new information about what it means to be a person, the Internet and how we should be thinking about that. We have no idea what's coming next year, but on the Vergecast this month we've decided to speculate wildly. Anyway, we're spending our time trying to figure out what's coming next year, what isn't and what it all means. All that on the Vergecast.

[Omar al Shugri]

Presented by Polestar. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

[Unnamed Podcast Host]

You'Re.

[Omar al Shugri]

Listening to TODAY Explained.

[Noel King]

I'm Noel King. Before Omar Al Shugari got to Sweden, where he now works for the Syrian Emergency Task Force and for a tech company that makes self driving cars. He had seen a lot of Europe and a lot of Europe didn't want him.

[Omar al Shugri]

Greece sent me to, you know, Macedonia, then Serbia, Serbia, Croatia, Croatia, Slovenia, Slovenia to Austria, Austria to Germany, Germany to Denmark. Denmark. Everybody was sending you to the next place. Nobody wanted to have you.

[Noel King]

Now, before all that, he was 15 and he was thrown in prison like thousands of other people for protesting Bashar Al Assad's regime. Omar was shuttled to something like nine prisons, but he ended up in Sednaya, the most notoriously brutal. His memories of Sednaya are still very sharp.

[Omar al Shugri]

And I can tell you something. Pain makes you say anything. You don't think about the long term consequences of your false confession, that you're going to be sentenced to execution or life in prison? No, you think about stopping the pain right now. Because every cigarette they were burning me with every bone they were breaking. Everything that was hurting in my body was not even caring about the future, just caring about right now. I want the pain to stop. So I gave them the false confession they wanted. And that false confession led them to transfer me to 10 different prisons. Last one was Sayyidnaya. And the special thing about Syrian prisons is you always dream about them sending you to the prison before the one you are at right now, because it just gets worse. And when you reach Sayyidina, that's when you for sure know that you're never coming out. Saydnaya is dark. Sayyidina is painful. Not the pain itself, it's the fear when you hear people screaming and the gods keep torturing them. Because inside, Naya, you're not allowed to scream under torture. So if you're screaming, that means they're beating you until you are quiet. Sometimes you're quiet by death, and sometimes you're quiet because you can't breathe anymore. And you can't. Or you learn the lesson that you're not allowed to scream.

[Noel King]

How old were you when you were in prison there, Omar?

[Omar al Shugri]

When I was in Sayyidina, I was. It was my third year in prison, so I was 19 at that time. 18? 19.

[Noel King]

You were barely more than a kid.

[Omar al Shugri]

No, I was a kid because I was taken to prison first time when I was 15, and then last time when I was 17. And I was a minor when I was in prison and I didn't grow up like anyone else would do. I was in cell silent under torture and starvation for years. I didn't feel like I grew up in that normal sense of growing up. So I was a little boy all the time. And that actually was the privilege that I had because the prisoners around me cared about me, because I was that little boy in me. They saw their kids, many of them were older they saw their kids, but most importantly, they saw someone who could potentially survive and get out and reach to their families and tell their families that they need to do something to get them out or something. So the doctor took care of my wounds and taught me how to take care of his wounds. And the psychologist talked to me about how to treat our trauma so we don't die of the traumatic experience we're going through every day. And the teacher how to embody and the engineer was talking about how messed up that building was.

[Noel King]

And this was all in prison where you met the doctor and the psychologist and the engineer and the teacher, all imprisoned with you?

[Omar al Shugri]

Yes. Yes. Political prisoners in Syria are usually the top and highly educated people of the country. Those are not criminals or anything. The regime put them in prison because the regime, those are threat to the regime. Educated, smart people, knowledgeable people are the biggest threat for the regime.

[Noel King]

How did you get out of Sednaya prison?

[Omar al Shugri]

Look, I feel in a way I never really got out as in get out. But I was announced for execution in June of 2015, on a Tuesday. They took me from my room and they put me in another room. 48 hours preparation for execution. And then they take me and they put me on the somewhere on the ground. And then they load their guns and they aim and then the officer says, shoot, and they shoot. And I remember like when it was like in my ear and I was so excited because I was so afraid that death is going to hurt so painfully. And they shot me and didn't even hurt. So I got so excited that finally dead and to heaven. I stood up and I had no blindfolds, no chain metals around my hands or anything. And I stand up and I tried to open my eyes and I couldn't, the light was so strong. And then I fainted. Then I woke up again. I managed to very slowly open my eyes. And then I saw a tree and hey, I haven't seen a tree in a very long. I haven't seen color in a very, very long time. When I saw color for the first time, it's like, oh, I want to cry of happiness. Nobody understand how important it is to see color like blue. I haven't seen blue in so long time. Those three years felt like 300 years. And I got down to the ground because I was starved and I just want to pick anything, grass, anything, doesn't matter. I got down to the ground and I looked and I saw so much blood on my feet. And I always believe there is no blood in heaven. And then I realized I may be still alive. And that could be the worst thing that could ever happen to me. Because I was informed that my family died in a massacre. My hometown was burned, my school was bombed. Even the girl I was in love with, her house was bombed. So she is probably dead. And I had nothing. I had nothing to live for. I had nothing to get out for. So I either die or stay in my cell. And then a car comes, picked me up and takes me somewhere else and somewhere else and somewhere else. Just things move too quickly for me to understand. And then I was standing between my mother's arms suddenly, and I was like, I didn't know what was happening. I really was yet questioning whether I'm alive or dead in heaven or not. And then my mom, you know, looks at me and says, my love, my heart, my son Omar. And she hugs me very hard. And, like, I asked her, didn't you, like, die? And she says, no, no, no, no, no. We smuggled you out of prison.

[Noel King]

Oh, my God.

[Omar al Shugri]

When she told me they smuggled me out of prison, I got so mad because I didn't get smuggled out of prison. I was like, executed. I told them. They were looking at me like, what do you mean? I said, I was executed. They shot, they put me, they executed me. I got so frustrated, said, no, no, that was just a mock execution. The execution guards, head of the prison, everyone was bribed. My mom managed to reach everyone and bribe everyone to get me out of prison. So I was smuggled out of prison on my execution day, June 11, 2015.

[Noel King]

And now it's nine years later. Omar has an adopted family in Sweden. He has friends to eat dinner with, even though he can't just go knock on their door at seven in the morning to ask if they want to have coffee. Swedes don't like that. That's something Syrians do. And so then there's Syria.

[Omar al Shugri]

I have to tell you about my hometown. My hometown is the most beautiful town that ever existed in the history of towns. I'm from the coast. It has the sea, it has the mountains, it has the rivers. It has my grandma. And then it has my sister, who I haven't seen in 13 years. And I haven't met her kids, not even in a single time. So I miss her. And I miss my father and my brothers who were killed and put in mass graves. I would love to go there and sit and probably talk a little bit to my father and to my siblings. And I have so much things to do. That being said, that being Said I can't ignore the fact that I lived half of my life in Sweden and I have a family here, I have friends here, I have a job here, I feel home in Stockholm. This is reality. I can change. So I have two homes, one in Syria and one in Sweden. Both are very important to me. What's important for me is to rebuild Syria, contribute with the education I have, with the knowledge I have gained and the experience I have from democracies to help Syria. At the same time, I can't ignore the fact that I care very much about Sweden. So it will always stay as my home. So moving, being hybrid, you know, traveling back and forth, we'll see.

[Noel King]

So things in Stockholm, things in Sweden have gone very, very well for you. I wanna look at what is on the other side. I wanna look at what might be in Syria for you. So we did an episode about this group, hts, the group that overthrew Al Assad. They are an Islamist group. They have links to Al Qaeda. The leader says he would like to govern as a moderate, that he considers himself a moderate. What do you think of this group that overthrew Al Assad? And is there anything that that might make you more likely to want to return to Syria?

[Omar al Shugri]

The most important point to highlight here is the fact that regardless of who overthrow the regime in their military operation, it's the Syrian people who over 14 years fought to bring down the Syrian regime. Which means nobody can come and then appoint themselves as a leader, regardless whether they are good or bad on this list or that list doesn't matter. What matters is the Syrian people went out to the street for 14 years and they brought down the dictator Bashar. And now it's a phase where we have to lead, that phase to transition, where we have election and we choose the people that we believe in, both in parliament and as president. And that's it. Period. Nothing else. Nobody else comes and say, I claim that power. You know, the Syrian people have brought down the dictator that's been established for 53 years and had allies like Russia and Iran and Arab Emirates and China and North Korea, all the dictators in the world. And yet the Syrian people brought him down. So imagine, a new emerging potential dictator won't survive long. I tell you that certain people will not settle. Remember, every mother has lost a son in Syria. Everyone have experienced the struggle. So nobody would settle for any small solution. And nobody has the right to come and say, hey, I liberated you. No, we liberated Syria. All of us, with every struggle we had by me, by speaking up and someone else by holding their gun and fighting, protecting their families and someone else by building someone else by doing this, we all, all Syrians together brought down the Syrian regime and all Syrians together decide on the future of Syria. Anything else I would start a revolution against. My father was killed so we have freedom. My brother, my other brother were killed to have freedom. My cousin, so we can have freedom and democracy would not let anyone come and take it from us. And this is, I'm not talking now against any sort of group. I'm just talking in general saying this. I would definitely never settle for less than having a real democracy in Syria.

[Noel King]

Omar, how old are you now?

[Omar al Shugri]

I'm 29. Handsome and happy.

[Noel King]

29 handsome. I can attest we are on zoom and happy. You seem very happy. I've seen stories about people in Turkey and Lebanon lining up at the borders to just basically walk back into Syria to try to get back in immediately. When your mind goes to when might it be safe for us to return? What do you think?

[Omar al Shugri]

Firstly, lots of Syrians were not safe in Lebanon. Syrians were killed, were tortured or kidnapped and so on. Syrians felt safe in Turkey in the beginning, but in the last few years they started to feel like they are discriminated against, have faced racism and so on. Of course, not from the whole country. But some incidents have led to build up perception that Syrians are not welcome in Turkey. So they, they were not feeling like they could stay longer. So the fact that Syria was liberated from the Assad regime was a great incentive for them to move immediately to the streets towards Damascus were so crowded. That being said, I don't think it's safe yet because nobody's certain, nobody knows what's going to happen next week. So it's too early for anyone to return. I won't push people to do it yet. I won't do it myself.

[Noel King]

Omar El Shugri he works for the Syrian Emergency Task Force as their director of detainee affairs and he's based in Stockholm. Coming up, millions of Syrians fled during the country's civil war. How others are thinking about the question of when and if to return. Support for Today explained comes from Aura. Aura believes that sharing pictures is a great way to keep up with family, and Aura says it's never been easier thanks to their digital picture frames. They were named the number one digital photo frame by wirecutter. Aura frames make it easy to share unlimited photos and videos directly from your phone to the frame. When you give an Aura frame as a gift, you can personalize it. You can preload it with a thoughtful message, maybe your favorite photos. Our colleague Andrew tried an aura frame.

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[Noel King]

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[Dr. Amani Kadour]

Support for Today Explain comes from Webroot Ever get one of those emails saying your package is missing and then you click the link only to realize it's spam? Or maybe you've had the IRS demanding payment in gas station gift cards? That sounds like a fun one. Or maybe you spotted a notification about a sign in attempt from Moscow? Not so fast, Moscow. We've all been there. That's why webroot has set out to make a better digital life for all. Webroot believes in cybersecurity made smarter, creating software that harnesses the cloud and AI to stop threats in real time. You can live a better digital life with Webroot. And now you can get 60% off an exclusive discount for our TODAY EXPLAIN listeners when you go to www.webroot.com today. That's www.webroot.com today.

[Unnamed Podcast Host]

You're listening to Today Explained. My name is Dr. Amani Kadur. That's newly minted. I just defended my doctorate a few days ago.

[Noel King]

Congratulations. You're having one hell of a month.

[Unnamed Podcast Host]

Oh yeah, it was hours before all of this unfolded. So it's been, you know, a whirlwind. I'm the director of a humanitarian NGO called Syria Relief and Development. Many know it as srd, operating on the ground in Syria. And then I also hold an associate faculty position at Johns Hopkins at their Bloomberg School of Public Health.

[Noel King]

You are Syrian American. Do I have that right? Can you just tell me about your ties to Syria?

[Unnamed Podcast Host]

My heritage is Syrian. My parents are Syrian. But I grew up in the US My whole life. So grew up in the Midwest.

[Noel King]

And where are we reaching you today, Imani?

[Unnamed Podcast Host]

I'm in Gaziantep, Turkey. So for those unfamiliar, it's in the southeast of Turkey, one of the cities where that was the epicenter actually of the earthquakes that hit last year.

[Noel King]

I want to get a sense of the scale of movement that happened as a result of Syria's decade plus long civil war. There were people who left the country. There were people who moved around inside the country. What are we talking about in terms of numbers and where did people tend to end up?

[Unnamed Podcast Host]

Let's talk about outflow first. This is a country that has probably 6 to 7 million refugees outside of the country, one of the highest for those that have been following Syria, Syria for the past decade. Plus, this is one of the highest numbers of refugees across the world, now probably closely tied with Afghanistan and Ukraine. But for quite some time, it was Syria. A lot of these refugees ended up in surrounding countries.

[Noel King]

Syria's civil war has left more than 130,000 people dead and forced millions to flee to neighboring countries like Jordan.

[Dr. Amani Kadour]

As fast as Turkey's government could build the dozens of refugee camps along its.

[Omar al Shugri]

Borders with Syria, they were filled to capacity.

[Unnamed Podcast Host]

Almost 4 million Syrian refugees have settled in countries neighboring Syria, Turkey, Jordan and Lebanon. And then the rest ended up in many, many places, Europe, the UK The US Canada.

[Unnamed Listener]

Migrants and refugees received a warm welcome after arriving on a train from Austria to the German city of Munich.

[Omar al Shugri]

How do you feel about being in Germany?

[Unnamed Podcast Host]

I feel happy. We from Syria.

[Noel King]

The 10,000th Syrian refugee is about to land in the US today.

[Omar al Shugri]

In Canada, the government is taking in.

[Noel King]

25,000 Syrian refugees, and groups are already arriving in Toronto officials there.

[Unnamed Podcast Host]

But I would say the bulk really of refugee hosting countries for Syrians have been the surrounding ones, including Turkey, where I reside right now. And then in terms of inflow within the country, across the various governorates, the majority of displaced communities have been in the northwest. This is one of the highest displaced populations across the world right now within the country, it's about 6 or so million displacements. And in the northwest, it's housed about 4 million. So these 4 million have come from other parts of the northwest as a result of aerial attacks, to civilian infrastructure, hospitals, clinics, schools, marketplaces. Some were fleeing forced military conscription, particularly young men of military age. So really a mixture of reasons, but the northwest in particular, I would say really housing the majority of the displaced.

[Noel King]

What are you hearing from Syrians who were displaced outside of the country now that Bashar Al Assad is gone, do they want to go home?

[Unnamed Podcast Host]

I think yes, but there's a caveat. So absolutely, I think without, you know, getting emotional about this, you can feel the hope and you can see the resilience of the Syrian people across the world right now. Scenes of people celebrating in almost every country, and real solidarity. I think this is a moment in history. This is a moment in time for people. And before discussing kind of what's next, the apprehension that others might be questioning Syrians about is, let's let Syrians have this moment. Let's let them celebrate, rejoice, feel the joy, feel the pain, feel the suffering. Excuse me, feel the loss and the family separation, the detainments, the persecutions. This is a bittersweet moment for a lot of people, and I think it's really important to let them process all of this. But on the other hand, when a lot of Syrians are now either wanting to return or at a minimum, just get permission to enter the country to reunite with parents that they haven't seen for 10 years, young men and women that had to leave the country separate from their families, out of safety or simply because of how much economic deterioration there was, it's also, for me, I'm very cautious about what this means. When many say they want to return. Is the time necessarily now? No. Is there a firm timeline? I also don't know what I would say, especially to Host countries is this is not a moment to exploit asylum policies. This is not a moment to sort of weaponize this critical point in time and immediately start discussing returns, especially if they're not this trifecta voluntary, safe and dignified for people.

[Noel King]

This has been a contentious issue in some European countries. Have any of them come out since Al Assad was forced out and said, we actually plan to do things differently now?

[Unnamed Podcast Host]

So it's been a dizzying few days. I believe Austria has. I am cautious to mention names of other countries. But even prior to this moment in time, a few countries have been looking at their migration policies. So this is not a secret. Anyone can google this. Germany has been looking at its migration policies. Holland has been looking. Denmark previously is really trying to understand what are the conditions in Syria so that they can also, I don't know if it's reframe or recalibrate their own migration policies and determine is it safe for returns and can Syrians be sent back now?

[Noel King]

If people were to choose to go back, what are they going back to? What is Syria look like now?

[Unnamed Podcast Host]

That's really hard. I mean a lot of people, it's just home for them. It's just, I'm going back home. I'm going back to, you know, mom and dad or my brothers and sisters that were, you know, five years old before and now they're teenagers. Like the heartwarming stories. So many of my colleagues, my team, you know, are going back right now and reuniting with family and it's so touching. I think a lot of people had lost hope. There was a clear disillusionment, I would say, with the international system very demoralized before this. But I do worry that what people are going back to now, you know, the country needs reconstruction, it needs development, it's been destroyed. So there really isn't in certain areas much to go back to. That's not the case for all parts of Syria. Inflation has hit the country hard. So generally economic insecurity in Syria and outside, which is also adds to some of the push pull factors for some Syrians that have struggled also outside of the country, especially in neighboring countries, unable to afford basic services, basic amenities. You have decimated infrastructure, so public infrastructure, schools, very little job prospects. And across the health system obviously, and I'm a public health practitioner, so this has been my area of focus for many, many years now is the hospital and healthcare infrastructure that's almost completely collapsed in certain areas.

[Noel King]

We talked to a young man named Omar earlier in the show who's 29 years old. He said his hometown is the most beautiful place in the world. But he's been in Europe since, since he was about 19 or 20. He has a whole life there. And so this is gonna be a very, very hard call for someone like this young man. I imagine you're gonna hear those types of stories again and again and again over the coming months and years.

[Unnamed Podcast Host]

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think a lot of people now are grappling with this. Especially, you know, I think of a lot of my colleagues and friends who've had children that have been born in other countries now. And there's this identity where we know, we hear there's something called Syria that were originally from there. What that actually means, you know, they may be too young to process that. It's a tough decision then to kind of uproot them all over again. Especially when some people, you know, some of the ones in Jordan and Lebanon, you know, they're on their fourth or fifth, sixth displacement, they've started their lives over multiple times. So some also just want stability in any form. So to then also be introduced to a different form of stability all over again, I think it's just there's only so much a person can handle.

[Noel King]

Dr. Amani Kador is the Director of Syria Relief and Development. She's also an associate faculty member at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. Avishai Artsy made our show today. He was edited by Aminah El Sadi, Fact checked by Laura Bullard and mixed by Andrea Christian's daughter and Rob Byers. I'm Noelle King. It's today explained.

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[Omar al Shugri]

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