Burnham begins: what awaits the new PM?

Summary

Today in Focus — "Burnham Begins: What Awaits the New PM?"

Date: July 21, 2026
Host: Helen Pidd (with guests Paul Harrison and Peter Walker)

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Episode Overview

This episode explores Andy Burnham’s historic first day as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. With on-the-ground insight from Paul Harrison (former Downing Street press secretary) and political analysis from the Guardian’s Peter Walker, the episode breaks down what Burnham faces as he enters No. 10: the personal and institutional challenges of his new role, the political context of his victory, bold policy promises, composition of his Cabinet, and the unpredictable road ahead—domestically and on the world stage.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Rituals and Realities of Day One in Downing Street

[01:34–04:38]

• First Moments of a New PM:

  • Burnham must immediately face the gravity of office: upon entering, one of his initial tasks is to create “letters of last resort” for the UK's nuclear deterrent, a solitary and sobering responsibility.
  • Quote – Paul Harrison [02:01]:
    “He’ll sit in his office and he’ll be given a set of letters and a shredder... whether we should respond in the event of a nuclear attack or we shouldn’t. This is a process that every new Prime Minister does by themselves. So he’ll shred the ones he doesn’t want and seal the others in envelopes.”

• No. 10’s Unusual Environment:

  • Contrary to international perceptions, No. 10 is cramped, a “rabbit warren” of oddly shaped rooms and mismatched furniture, with some grandeur—but mostly “six to a room” workspaces.
  • Quote – Paul Harrison [03:52]:
    “The further down below stairs you go into the basement, the more it looks like a collection of sort of abandoned wedding furniture…”

2. From Freedom to Fortification: Life as PM

[06:21–07:58]

• Loss of Personal Freedom:

  • Burnham’s independent lifestyle in Manchester—jogging, attending gigs, walking his dog—is over. He will now always be accompanied by security.
  • Quote – Paul Harrison [06:58]:
    “He’ll never go anywhere unaccompanied again, really… Even a run in St. James’s Park means a convoy of cars, protection officers in tow.”

• Interlude: Pets in No. 10:

  • Light-hearted discussion of Burnham's dog, Axel, meeting the iconic Larry the cat—known for outliving seven PMs and his legendary grumpiness.

3. Burnham’s First Speech: Style, Substance, and Ambition

[09:32–13:36]

• Tone of the Speech:
  • Acknowledges voter exhaustion from rapid PM turnover; “The first thing is, we will do better. There will be a plan.”
    (Peter Walker [09:45])
  • Announces a “ten-year plan for Britain” and bold promise: “homelessness will end.”
    Quote – Andy Burnham [10:31]:
    “I will soon go through that door behind me and issue my first instruction to end rough sleeping in our country.”
  • Discussion of whether ending homelessness resonates as a voter priority (probably not top-5 for most, but a clear, humane symbol).
  • Emphasis on values: Quote – Andy Burnham [12:40]:
    “It's about putting the right values and the right standards at the heart of government. I will put the care of people at the heart of everything I do…”

4. Key Cabinet Appointments & the Political Calculation

[13:36–17:52]

• Surprise Chancellor:

  • John Healey, former Defence Secretary, chosen as Chancellor—a shock to many.
  • Healey’s reputation for principle after resigning over underfunding; past Treasury experience under Blair/Brown.
  • Quote – Peter Walker [13:54]:
    “He resigned because he said this long standing kind of defence investment plan... didn't have enough money. And he's quite authoritative.”

• Ed Miliband as Foreign Secretary:

  • Despite wanting Treasury, Miliband moves to Foreign Office, replacing Yvette Cooper.
    “It's one of the other great offices of State and it's an interesting one... foreign policy is not the sideline it once was.” (Peter Walker [16:18])

• Shabana Mahmood stays Home Secretary:

  • Reflects Burnham’s “endorsement of the tone” of her tough immigration stance but with reported pushback on the harshest elements.

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5. The Critical Early Days: Message, Power, and Peril

[17:52–22:43]

• Messaging High Stakes:

  • The first speech is a “cut through” moment—the most attention and power a new PM will likely enjoy, but also the least experience.
  • Burnham’s personal style—writing his own speeches, off-the-cuff charm—is valued but now subject to severe time constraints.
  • Quote – Paul Harrison [19:24]:
    “He will just be a lot more time poor now. People will fight over five minutes of his diary... the communication stuff, though, I think lots of people have said is an asset and I tend to agree with that.”

• Governance: Agenda vs. Firefighting:

  • Much of a PM’s work is hidden (“architecture not designed for the public domain”), balancing proactive agenda against constant, unpredictable crises—a test of leadership and adaptability.

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6. The Early 'Shit List': Domestic and Foreign Flashpoints

[22:43–25:27]

• Immediate Domestic Challenges:

  • Social security/benefits; soaring claimants
  • Funding for a new defence investment plan (“an extra £4.7 billion” needed)
  • Cost of living and energy prices—ongoing North Sea oil debate

• Foreign Relations & Donald Trump:

  • Trump will be one of Burnham’s first calls as PM. Plans for a meeting in Manchester, overlapping with the UK’s G20 hosting.
  • Stresses the unpredictability of world affairs—a revived Iran war, implications for energy prices.
  • Jonathan Powell continues as National Security Advisor to provide continuity and expertise.

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7. Inside A Leadership Call: PM and the President

[26:44–28:57]

• How Calls with Presidents Work:

  • Strictly secure facilities; no mobiles; multiple aides on mute listening in.
  • Quote – Paul Harrison [26:56]:
    “There’s a listening room downstairs in Number 10 ... you’re not allowed to take your phones in. It’s a secure environment…”

• Tips for Handling Donald Trump:

  • Sometimes steering the call does “more harm than good… let him talk golf, then pivot to Syria.”
  • Quote – Paul Harrison [27:44]:
    “If you’re going downstream... paddling every now and again will do more harm than good. Sometimes Trump would go off on some kind of tangent, usually to do with golf courses... the worst thing to do would be to try and bring that hastily back to some sort of conclusion.”

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8. The Mood: A Country Ready for Leadership?

[28:57–end]

• Despite political differences, many—including former Conservative officials—are “won over” by Burnham’s honest, personable approach and acknowledge the country’s hunger for stable, solution-oriented leadership.
  • Quote – Paul Harrison [29:09]:
    “When you read and see people say, and he's a nice guy, one, I think he wants to come across that way, but two, in my experience, it is true... Coming back to that idea that he's the seventh Prime Minister in just over a decade, we kind of need someone to take this by the scruff of the neck now and get it done, don’t we?”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “He'll never go anywhere unaccompanied again, really.” (Paul Harrison, 06:58)
• “I will issue my first instruction to end rough sleeping in our country.” (Andy Burnham, 10:31)
• “If we drill for North Sea oil, then we'll become energy independent overnight… Economists and energy experts have a slightly dim view of that.” (Peter Walker, 24:07)
• “People want to be led, people want solutions.” (Paul Harrison, 29:09)

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Key Timestamps

• 01:34 – The gravity of the first hours for a new PM; “letters of last resort”
• 03:52 – What’s it really like inside No. 10?
• 06:21 – Burnham’s loss of privacy and freedom
• 09:45 – First speech analysis and big pledges
• 13:36 – Cabinet surprises and Healey’s appointment
• 17:52 – Importance of the first days and shaping public perception
• 22:43 – The “shit list” of immediate challenges
• 24:47 – First foreign calls: The Trump conundrum
• 26:44 – Behind the scenes of a call with a US President
• 29:09 – Reflections on Burnham’s style and the country’s hunger for leadership

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Conclusion

Burnham’s premiership begins against a backdrop of public fatigue and institutional instability, but his message of hope, unity, and bold action—paired with a surprising Cabinet and high-public-stakes policy pledges—may capture the national mood. The podcast leaves listeners with a nuanced look at the real-life workings of government, the personal cost of high office, and the daunting—but hopeful—challenges ahead.

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Transcript

[A]

This is the Guardian.

[B]

Today, Andy Burnham's first day in Downing Street.

[C]

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[B]

Well, he finally made it.

[D]

I have just come from Buckingham palace, where I have accepted His Majesty the King's invitation to form a government.

[B]

On his third and most audacious attempt. Andy Burnham is Prime Minister. He's given his first speech in the

[D]

job, but I can do something to give people some breathing space now, some help.

[B]

He's chosen his cabinets.

[A]

John Healey is Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I can tell you that was not expected.

[B]

And now things get real.

[E]

He'll go behind that black door and he will wander into the Cabinet Room and he'll see all those kind of sights that we've seen if we, you know, watch love. Actually, he'll do all of that, but one of the very first things that he'll do is he'll get a briefing from the National Security Advisor. And then this is a real kind of sober moment.

[B]

This is Paul Harrison, who worked in

[E]

number 10 for Theresa May, almost certainly completely by himself. He'll sit in his office and he'll be given a set of letters and a shredder. And the letters are about whether we should respond in the event of a nuclear attack or we shouldn't. And they're duplicates, and there are four of each, because we have four nuclear submarines that operate in the nuclear deterrent. This is basically a process that every new Prime Minister does by themselves. So he'll shred the ones he doesn't want and seal the others in envelopes.

[B]

So they're already written for him, are they? And he just has to sign them?

[E]

Yeah. That's a huge decision that you've made a few hours after you've gone to Stephen King, and he said, okay, you know, please form a government in my name. There'll be a lot of stuff where Andy Vernon will want to pause and look around and think about what he's achieved by getting there. I mean, it's an amazing thing, but also how much kind of hope and responsibility is now invested in him.

[B]

From the guardian, I'm helen pitt. Today in focus, andy burnham's in tray. Paul Harrison, you worked for Theresa May as her Press Secretary after the general election in 2017 while she was Prime Minister. Let's talk about what Burnham has just walked into because I think a lot of our overseas listeners will be quite surprised to hear that it they'll have seen a picture of Downing street, but maybe they don't realise that it's not a purpose built government building like the White House or the Chancellery in Germany. It's like a cramped row of little higgledy piggledy terraced houses, isn't it? Can you remember what you first thought when you knocked on that door and you were let in?

[E]

As you say, it is very hiddle de piddledy. In fact, the further down below stairs you go into the basement, the more it looks like a collection of sort of abandoned wedding furniture that's not even from the same wedding. So yeah, it's very strange. It's a bit of a rabbit warren like lots of old buildings. The rooms aren't the same size, there are stairs that sometimes seem to go to nowhere in particular and in some cases it's very grand. So there are these amazing rooms upstairs, the state rooms, the ones that people will have seen on television when you see foreign leaders go and introduce them. But that is nowhere like the desk space that most of the people occupy. We were six to a room in the bit, the Downing Street Press office that I worked in. So yeah, there is a bit of a facade inside that very grand black door.

[B]

And what about the living quarters? What are they like for the Prime Minister and his or her family?

[E]

Bits of them are quite spacious actually. They're sort of some kind of double height ceilings and they look a bit grand in port portions, but also effectively they're smashed into the middle of the building. So they don't start on the ground floor or finish right at the top. They're kind of a flat that's inserted halfway up both above number 10 and above number 11. And obviously Prime Ministers and Chancellors, depending on how big their families are, might have chosen to swap those two places around. Everybody's given a small, certainly by the standard of other countries, allowance to redecorate and paint, pull up wallpaper, whatever. So they may be a bit different now since they were in Theresa's day. There's a strange psychological component of the whole thing which is that imagine you have a really busy job, you're the chief executive of a big firm, which effectively the PM is, and then we say, well, you can live here for free. But it does mean that you are at our absolute beck and call all the Time, because you live just above the Cabinet Room, so you're in this strange situation where you can't ever really escape the duty of the job, which would probably be true if you were living somewhere else. But you also can't really escape the stress. So you come downstairs to the place that you're having the meeting that you're worried about that day because you're chairing Cabinet and it's Tuesday, or you're thinking about National Security Council and the things that you'll probably see and be told there. And you live 30 yards away from where all that happens. So that's an experience that not too many other people get.

[B]

Yeah. The way you describe it, it sounds quite claustrophobic. And when I think about how Andy Burnham has lived his life in Greater Manchester for the last nine years, he's been a pretty free agent. You could just see him wandering around sometimes. He'd have an aide with him. He used to go to gigs with his eldest son. I saw him once at a protest. He was just there, kind of as a civilian, actually, with his daughter. He goes for runs, goes to walk his dog. Is that all over for him now?

[E]

It's over in large part in terms of how easy he'll find to do that. And also, he just won't ever go anywhere unaccompanied again, really.

[B]

He'll never be alone again, will he?

[E]

Almost certainly not. I mean, within number 10, it's slightly different because obviously there are armed guards and, you know, it is a bit of a fortress in itself. So the PM's protection won't follow him around from room to room in the building. But anytime you step outside, you'll be in a convoy of cars. There'll probably be motorcycle outriders. You'll certainly have close protection, people universally referred to by everyone who works in number 10. The cops, you know, they will just be with you all the time. So, you know, I think Teresa said to me once that the day she became Home Secretary, she never drove a car again. And, you know, Andy Bonham will have to get used to that. He can go for a run around St. James's park if he wants to. And I saw a nice video of him jogging with Mo Farah in London. But if you'd panned out in that shot, there would have been a couple of guys dressed the same as you, but bigger, running behind, and that will be his life now forever.

[B]

And I mentioned that the Burnhams have got a dog. It's a dog called Axel. How do you think he will get on With Larry, Larry the cat, who has outlasted, I think, seven prime ministers.

[E]

Now, Larry the Cat is doing fantastically well. So I don't want to make myself unpopular. I like animals. Larry the Cat is not particularly friendly, is he not? So, no, any challenge to Larry's dominance will not be well received. He's a little bit. He's a little bit scratchy, a little bit bitey. So, yeah, although, I mean, he is. He's an old cat now, he's getting on, so maybe he has mellowed. But in my day, you know, there was a particular chair that he liked to sit in also. He's obviously got a sense of theatre because Churchill liked to sit in it as well. And, you know, woe betide the person who tried to move him. Also, you don't want to be the person where, you know, you're in charge. And Larry decides that maybe the end is nigh or close. You know, there was a time during Brexit negotiations where everything seemed about as bad as it could possibly seem in number 10. And also Larry was quite unwell and, yeah, he went to the vet several times and that was, I mean, that was probably 2018 now. So he's doing well.

[B]

Yeah, he is. Peter Walker, your senior political correspondent at the Guardian, a familiar voice to our listeners. Thanks for making time for us.

[A]

A pleasure and welcome to life under Andy Burnham's Britain.

[B]

I know. A new dawn. And so Andy Burnham has achieved his goal. He's met the King, he's got the job he's always wanted, he's walked up Downing street with his wife, he's given his first speech. What did you make of it?

[A]

The bits that struck me was, first of all, his immediate acknowledgement that the response of lot of people watching this, lots of voters, is going to be, what, this again? And he acknowledged the fact that this turnover of PMs is not sustainable. And he's, as he put it, the politician. Sorry, the generation of politicians of which he's a part is to blame. So he said, the first thing is we will do better. There will be a plan.

[D]

Later this year, I will bring forward a new plan for Britain, a ten year plan, laying out a path.

[A]

As ever, with Andy Burnham, the specific plans were currently slightly vague, but there wasn't. The most striking policy thing was this thing where he said, homelessness will end.

[D]

I will soon go through that door behind me and issue my first instruction to end rough sleeping in our country.

[A]

And as you know this very well, when he became Greater Manchester Mayor, he said he would do that. The numbers went down, some argue, because. Partly because of COVID and now the numbers have since been creeping up and his people will say that's because as a mayor, you don't have an impact on the kind of national policy stuff. So housing allowances, asylum seekers being kicked out of where they live, these are the kind of things, as a mayor, you can't control. So he now has his hands on these enormous policy levers and can do it. So he's obviously decided becoming Prime Minister with only a slightly funny mandate isn't difficult enough on its own. I'm going to add this extra task, but I think it's bold and I get the feeling the country's maybe ready for a bit of boldness.

[B]

Yeah, I was quite surprised when I heard it because it's, you know, as you know, I basically got a PhD in Burnamology after all those years watching you up close in Greater Manchester when I was Northern editor. And he began so bold in 2017, saying, I'm going to end rough sleeping. And that language evolved over the nine years he's been there to end the need for rough sleeping. So I thought it was very interesting he's gone so hard on that issue on day one in the job, and I just wonder for how many people that would be a priority, a real pressing issue in their life. What do you think? How do you think that will land with people?

[A]

I suspect that if you were to get people to write down a list on a blank piece of paper of what their most important priorities are, I don't think ending homelessness would be on even their first A4 page. But I think it's one of those things which, if you present it as a list, do you think ending homelessness and rough sleeping is a good idea? Then most people would go, yes, but I think it goes more than that. I think it's something which is a visible sign of a society that's not quite right. So it's a visible sense of the country perhaps not doing as comprehensively well as it could. And it ties into his other big pledge in a speech, which is, this is to be a government which is based on basically kind of people.

[D]

It's about putting the right values and the right standards at the heart of government. I will put the care of people at the heart of everything I do. I will give this my all and I ask you all to pull with me. Let's build a new national sense of unity, of common purpose and positivity, trying

[A]

to tap into the humanity of People hope was a word that he uses quite a lot. And he knows he probably has a limited amount of time in which to do that. I think it's quite clever, you can understand it very simply. And he's given himself a target by which he's happy to be judged and I think voters will quite like that.

[B]

And at the time we're recording this, Burnham has begun appointing his Cabinet. And there was a big surprise, wasn't there, in his pick to be his chancellor. John Healey, not exactly a household name, an MP for Wentworth and Coningsborough, which is just north of Rotherham in South Yorkshire. Tell us about him and what do you make of his appointment?

[A]

He was the Defense Secretary throughout the Stanbag government until literally a matter of weeks ago, where he resigned in a very sudden move that surprised a lot of people. He resigned because he said this long standing kind of defence investment plan the government had been putting together over many, many months didn't have enough money. And he's quite authoritative. I mean, what is interesting is that up until quite recently he would have been seen as quite a kind of loyalist to Keir Starmer in that he was in Starmer's cabinet all the way through. But the fact that he resigned gives him a kind of plausible deniability from a Starmer project, you know, and he would say he was standing on principle. It sometimes offers you this kind of second chance.

[B]

And I guess Healey has got some relevant experience, albeit quite a long time ago. He was the Financial Secretary to the treasury under Tony Blair. Then he was Housing Secretary under Gordon Brown. Do you think that by appointing him Chancellor, Andy Burnham has actually given him something very difficult to do, which to say, all right, you said that Defence needed billions and billions and billions more. Good luck, here you are, here's the Treasury. Find the money.

[A]

I mean, to an extent, the Defence job is very figures based because you spend a huge amount of your time looking at all these multi billion pound, multi year projects and wondering where the hell their money has gone. Because, you know, defence procurement projects very, very often overrun and spend a lot more than they said. So that's quite good training. I, I don't think he's brought him as a kind of hostage necessarily. I think he's brought him in just to try and reassure the markets. We always talk about the markets as if it's this kind of amorphous thing. But there is a worry certainly amongst Team Burnham that we have this history lesson of what happened under Liz Truss.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, if they get spooked, if the herd gets spooked, then they do, and that can be incredibly difficult to get back. Ed Miliband would probably have been Burnham's first choice. He was almost certainly the first choice of lots of people around him. But there was just this thing. It's this reflex problem that lots of people in Labour have, which is they worry about what the Daily Telegraph and Daily Mail front pages are going to be, and those in themselves are not necessarily influential, but they can influence other people.

[B]

And Ed Miliband has been moved from the Energy Department to be promoted to the Foreign Secretary. He replaces Ed Yvette Cooper. What do you make of that appointment?

[A]

I think it's something which, obviously, I think Miliband wanted Chancellor, but it's one of the other great offices of State and it's an interesting one. You get to fly around the world and it's most importantly, one that could be sold to Millerband as a promotion. As Ed, we really need you. This, you know, this is. This is a bit of a weakness for me. But you've been around the block, you've led Labour, you know what you're doing. You know, we really need you to do a good job. And foreign policy is not the sideline it once was. And, you know, Miliband is quite affable. You know, he's got quite a lot of charm, so I imagine he'll do it quite well.

[B]

And there was a lot of speculation in the last few days that Shabana Mahmood would be the new Chancellor and instead she's staying put as Home Secretary. And do you think we can see this as Burnham endorsing what people certainly on the left would see as her fairly harsh immigration policies making it much more difficult for immigrants to settle in in the uk?

[A]

He's endorsing it to an extent. He's certainly endorsing the tone. The interesting bit is going to be whether he endorses the detail, because even during the Makefield campaign trail, he was saying to journalists that there were some aspects of the immigration reform, particularly the retrospective changes to indefinite leave to remain, that he wasn't particularly pleased with. So it's always possible that he's made a deal with her whereby she stays in the job, which is another one of the very, very big jobs, on the condition that she looks at scaling back some of that stuff.

[B]

So, Paul, just how important are these first few hours, these first few days and weeks in the job, in terms of getting your message out there and really setting the tone for what's to come?

[E]

They're really important. They're really important. And so for a few reasons, one, you've just got a lot of people who will be interested because of the novelty about what you're going to do. So people will be falling over themselves to offer you interview space and time, but also people will be paying attention when you make that first speech. That's a big kind of cut through moment. And those cut through moments in the modern media, politicians really prize they're a huge asset. So that's really important because you've got a lot of attention. It's also kind of important because you need to limit your missteps, your introducing yourself to the country again. Andy Vernon has been a cabinet minister but quite a long time ago now, and people very reasonably have short political memories. So if you think of him as a politician at all, as you said, you'll think of him as the Mayor of Greater Manchester. He's coming onto a new stage now and doing a load of new things that he won't have done before. So limiting your mistakes is also important, partly because you're at the moment where you've got the greatest amount of power that you're probably ever going to have as Prime Minister, but you've also got the least amount of experience and that's true of everyone around you too. So the 25 or so special advisors that will be part of Andy's team in number 10.

[B]

And what do you make about the way in which Andy Burnham communicates? And you know he's been writing all of his own speeches in Greater Manchester. He does like to be able to speak off the cuff a little bit. Are those days gone now that he's Prime Minister?

[E]

Do you think they haven't gone? I suppose the extra emphasis that with all due respect to being Mayor of Grace in Manchester, which is a very important job, he will just be a lot more time poor now. People will fight over five minutes of his diary. There will be arguments about exactly what he does and for how long after Prime Minister questions before he goes back to number 10. So that will put limits on how much he's able to be the author of everything that goes out in his name. The communication stuff, though, I think lots of people have said is an asset and I tend to agree with that. He's got a kind of faulty charm and something that somebody said to me the other day, who is also a veteran of my kind of political era said sometimes voters like it when they think that they see someone who's enjoying the job and you get that sense,

[B]

you See also Zora Mamdani.

[E]

Right, yeah, exactly. People who feel like.

[B]

Or Trump actually.

[E]

Yeah, I mean, there is no one in modern politics. He's enjoying himself as much as Donald Trump, rightly or wrongly. But yeah, so I think, you know, that's something that he'll want to recapture. The burdens of office are very heavy and I've, you know, I've seen one person struggle with them up close. But I think voters, while they're sympathetic to that, they also want solutions. We hear so much about the idea that the country is essentially ungovernable. Yeah, no decisions are good. Pain is inevitable. Maybe what we want is for someone to come in and say, I can't change everything immediately, but I've got a plan, here's how it's going to work and I don't feel overburdened in doing it.

[B]

I wonder how much are you setting the agenda versus responding to stuff happening. And stuff can happen at any point in 24 hours. So, yeah, how much will he find? He's just sort of firefighting a lot.

[E]

I mean, one of the things that's peculiar about PM is the difference between, I suppose, what people think it is and what it actually is. And a lot of the really big decisions that you make, people don't see. So you spend a lot of time on the phone to foreign leaders and the number 10 press office will do a kind of three paragraph readout which won't always be totally representative of how difficult that call was or how rewarding that call was. You'll do National Security Council at least once every two weeks. There's a load of architecture that isn't designed for the public domain and so most people are sort of oblivious that it happens rightly. Then there's also the extent to which you can be proactive and get out your message and how that's balanced against having to be reactive and feeling at the mercy of events. I suppose the art really of the job, or part of the art of the job is knowing how you can sometimes use those events to shape your agenda. Or sometimes things present an opportunity.

[B]

Peter before Keir Starmer came into Downing street two years ago, he famously got his then chief of staff Sue Gray, remember her, to come up with a list of issues that might trouble him in his first few weeks. And this list was called, excuse my language, the shit list. Sue Gray's have reportedly been advising Vernon in the past few weeks. What do you think is going to be on this shit list? Let's talk domestic issues first.

[A]

So you've got Social Security reform, where some benefits. The number of claimants is going up at a rapid rate of knots. Defence is something that's even more salient. You have not just this defence investment plan, but the fact that the spending on it, certainly beyond the next couple of years, is slightly vague. So Andy Burnham has promised to meet the commitments in the defence investment plan. He now needs to find the money to do it. And these are very, very big sums.

[B]

An extra 4.7 billion. He's going to have to find what

[A]

else more widely, the cost of living and energy prices. These are things he said he's going to do something on very, very quickly, and people are waiting for that. And tying into that is this ongoing argument about North Sea oil. The Conservatives are convinced if we drill for North Sea oil, then we'll become energy independent overnight and our energy prices will drop. Economists and energy experts have a slightly dim view of that. It's the sort of thing which would stop the Conservatives from saying, you know, he hates the modern world, but at the same time won't actually probably make a huge amount of difference.

[B]

And all the signs are that Andy Burnham is going to concentrate primarily on domestic issues. Nonetheless, you know, he's going to be our world leader and he's going to have to get involved in all kinds of tricky geopolitical issues. And somebody who's going to have to get onside is Donald Trump. His very first phone call on Monday with a foreign leader was with Donald Trump, and Burnham reportedly invited him to Manchester, despite Trump dismissing it as some town just a few weeks ago. And it seems that this meeting may coincide with the G20 meetings of world leaders, which the UK is hosting. How do you think Burnham is going to deal with foreign relations?

[A]

I mean, I think when he took office, Keir Starmer was hoping to focus on domestic issues mainly, but events got in the way. And Andy Burnham is arriving in probably an even more turbulent time. You've got the Iran war reigniting and the potentially massive implications for cost of living. Donald Trump is still there. One of the advantages that Burnham has got is keeping on Jonathan Powell. He's basically the font of all knowledge of foreign policy in the uk. He's a national Security Advisor, was under Starmer, and we understand it's going to keep the same job and he is going to do a lot of the foreign policy grant work.

[B]

Coming up, Andy Burnham has invited Donald Trump to Manchester, but how should he manage the unpredictable president?

[F]

He's dribbling the ball with everything on the line. He's driving down the pitch. He's facing price hikes and cuts past him. Carrier contracts tries to block him. Oh, he leaves him in the dust. He's at the edge of the box. He cuts past the non stop group chat trash talk. He clears on goal. He shoots unlimited data for $25 a month for Visit your local Boost Mobile

[C]

store today to get unlimited data with a price that never changes. Boost mobile after 30gb, customers may experience lower speeds. Customers will pay $25 a month as long as they remain active on the Boost $25 Unlimited plan decisions made in Washington can affect your portfolio every day. But what policy changes should investors be watching? Washington Wise is an original podcast from Charles Schwab that unpacks the stories making news in Washington right now and how they may affect your finances and portfolio. [e-mail] WashingtonWise.

[B]

So Paul, what happens when Trump calls? Like does you were presumably there when Trump called Theresa May. Does he just ring the prime minister's mobile? How does it work and how did those calls pan out when you were there?

[E]

The White House security kind of insists that those calls don't happen on open line. So there's a listening room downstairs past the mismatched old wedding furniture. There's a listening room downstairs in number 10 where you're not allowed to take your phones in. So it's a secure environment and you go in there to listen to the call. The PM will probably take it in his office because that's also secure. So there'll be a host of people on mute on both sides listening to these two guys.

[B]

I'm just imagining that your face is like, oh, yeah.

[E]

I mean, in my day, the Trump calls were very well attended compared to some others between other leaders.

[B]

Trump and May had a weird relationship, didn't they? I remember him trying to hold her hand going up some steps one day. What advice would you have for Andy Burnham in how to deal with Trump?

[E]

I think there's a bit of, I don't know what you'd call it, but if you're going downstream in a, you know, in a sort of turbulent white water rafting situation, paddling every now and again will do more harm than good. And the call sometimes felt a bit like that. Sometimes Trump would, would go off on some kind of tangent, usually to do with golf courses, but not exclusively. And every now and again, the worst thing to do would be to try and bring that hastily back to some sort of conclusion. The better thing was to let that play out and then say, I really wanted to talk to you about Syria, and he'll learn his own rhythm of that. So it's all to play for. But joking aside, that's a really important call. That's a really important relationship. And it's one of those quite sobering things that Andy Burnham will do where his staff will have to go to a specially built room so that no one can tap into the call. And he'll be sitting there on the phone to the President of the United States, having been connected by a White House switchboard, who will say, please hold for the President. It's a pinch me moment and he'll have quite a lot of those in the next few days, I'm sure.

[B]

And finally hearing you talk, it strikes me that despite you being a former Conservative communications chief, you seem to kind of won over by Andy Burnham, or certainly wishing him well.

[E]

I think lots of people will be in that position, even if they couldn't imagine themselves voting for him. For two reasons, in my case, I guess. One, I used to work for Jeremy Hunt as well, so that was my path to number 10. I was a special advisor at the Department of Health and Andy Burnham, as well as having been a former Health Secretary in government, was also Jeremy's shadow for a bit. They had quite a good personal relationship, I think, when you read and see people say, and he's a nice guy, one, I think he wants to come across that way, but two, in my experience, it is true, he is a nice guy. But I suppose coming back to that idea that he's the seventh Prime Minister in just over a decade, we kind of need someone to take this by the scruff of the net now and get it done, don't we? People want to be led, people want solutions. And we're a difficult moment for the country and we have been for a while, and it seems like he's kind of got his diagnosis right about that. He seems to understand that, and if he can marry that with some policy wins and some points of difference, you know, who knows? But we do wish him well.

[B]

Let's leave it there. It's been so interesting to talk to you, so thank you. So much better. That was Paul Harrison. My thanks to him and to Peter Walker. You can follow all of our coverage of burnham's [e-mail] and that is all for today. This episode was produced by Ruth Abrams, Guy Zafman and Belinda Gurung, and presented by me, Helen Pidd. Sound design was by Rudy Zagadlo and the executive producer was Sammy Kent. We'll be back in your feeds this afternoon with the latest.

[E]

This is the Guardian.

[F]

He's dribbling the ball with everything on the line. He's driving down the pitch. He's facing price hikes and cuts past him. Carrier contracts tries to block him. Oh, he leaves him in the dust. He's at the edge of the box. He cuts past the non stop group chat trash talk. He clears on goal. He shoots no unlimited data for $25 a month forever.

[C]

Visit your local Boost Mobile service store today to get unlimited data with a price that never changes. Boost mobile after 30gb, customers may experience lower speeds. Customers will pay $25 a month as long as they remain active on the Boost $25 Unlimited plan decisions made in Washington can affect your portfolio every day. But what policy changes should investors be watching? Washington Wise is an original podcast from Charles Schwab that unpacks the stories making news in Washington right now and how they may affect your finances and portfolio. [e-mail] Washingtonwise Santana Oneness Tour 2026 from Woodstock to Supernatural and beyond with very special guest the Doobie Brothers. Get tickets [e-mail].