Munya Chawawa on making jokes as the world collapses

Summary

Podcast Summary: Today in Focus – "Making jokes as the world collapses"

Date: May 18, 2026
Host: Nosheen Iqbal
Featured Guest: Munya Chawawa

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Episode Overview

This episode of Today in Focus explores the evolving craft of political satire in a chaotic, hyperconnected age. Comedian and viral satirist Munya Chawawa discusses with host Nosheen Iqbal how he navigates the endless cycle of bizarre and often bleak news, why satire matters now more than ever, and how the act of making people laugh can become a weapon against misinformation, division, and despair.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Overwhelming News Cycle and the Role of Satire

[02:50-04:26]

• Munya describes the rapid evolution of the news cycle, especially post-pandemic:
  “In lockdown, the news cycle felt pretty intense, but it was like one big story a week... Now it’s just crazy. The way the algorithms are programmed... is to just constantly make us feel like we're behind.” —Munya Chawawa [03:09]
• The pressure on satirists has increased:
  “There’s almost too much to play with... it forces me to be more selective.” —Munya Chawawa [03:33]
• Social media's demand for quick content vs. the complexity of modern issues:
  “90 seconds is like a Scorsese movie on Instagram. It's a long time.” —Munya Chawawa [04:54]

Viral Videos and Satirical Characters

[05:09-06:18]

• Munya discusses his most popular sketches, such as "Get Ready with Suella":
  “I wonder what it would be like if one of the most malevolent politicians did something as innocuous as a get ready with me.” —Munya Chawawa [05:30]
• He deliberately plays with lo-fi costume choices (e.g., T-shirt wigs):
  “Sometimes the wigs just don’t ARR.” —Munya Chawawa [06:08]

Satire as Accountability

[06:18-08:37]

• Satire is thriving on social media because it holds power to account:
  “Comedy’s a rubber sword because it has a point, but it doesn’t draw blood.” —Munya Chawawa [06:35]
• Diversity of satirical voices online means more entry points for political conversation.
• Munya’s audience is broad, often spanning demographics not traditionally engaged in politics:
  “As an upper class white man, [your videos are] a conduit through which I can discuss with other men of that demographic things... they may not have thought of.” [07:58]

Facing Criticism and Embracing Debate

[08:37-09:46]

• Online audiences can be even more brutal than live crowds, but dialogue (even with critics) is vital:
  “You’re not really there to be liked. You’re there actually just to hold up a mirror and ask society, do we like this bit of ourselves?” —Munya Chawawa [09:10]

Trump, Wrestling, and Populist Performance

[09:46-13:28]

• Munya explains the link between Donald Trump’s persona and professional wrestling:
  “What if Donald Trump... has based his entire political blueprint on WWE wrestling?... When you really squint and take a look, the parallels are undeniable.” —Munya Chawawa [10:11]
  • “Smack talk,” “foreign heels,” “kayfabe”: Munya breaks down wrestling jargon and applies it to Trump's tactics, with illustrative audio clips and quotes.
  • Notable example:
    “Smack talk. Sleepy Joe Biden, Crooked Hillary... foreign heels: apparently Mexicans are rapists. Haitians are eating the cats and dogs.” —Munya Chawawa [12:31]
• The dangerous comfort with “kayfabe”—suspending disbelief:
  “How many times have we seen Trump say something which hasn’t materialized... That is Wrestling 101.” —Munya Chawawa [13:16]

Personal & Political Perspective: Zimbabwe to Britain

[16:16-17:37]

• Munya reflects on growing up partly in Zimbabwe, experiencing authoritarianism firsthand:
  “As a kid we were told in the car, just look down... it was very fear driven.” —Munya Chawawa [16:33]
  • He is grateful for the privileges of British democracy and free speech.
  • “Had I stayed in Zimbabwe, I don’t know what would have happened to me if I’d taken the same career path.” —Munya Chawawa [17:16]

Tackling Populism, Racism, and Division in Comedy

[18:05-22:43]

• The tone of public discourse has shifted since lockdown — there's more venom and scapegoating:
  “The feeling of venom is very different from what it was in lockdown... I mention the foreign heel. I do believe that is something that has bled from wrestling not just into US politics, but to a degree into here as well.” —Munya Chawawa [18:10]
• Simplifying complex issues for political gain (citing Nigel Farage):
  “The simplest things are binary. It’s either good or evil... it’s so easy just to take something as nuanced as immigration and say we’re good, they’re bad. But it’s not like that.” —Munya Chawawa [18:35]
• On the risks of perpetual enemy-creation in politics:
  “You have to continually create enemies in order to maintain popularity when the things that have made you popular aren’t working.” —Munya Chawawa [20:34]
• The solution, he believes, lies in unity:
  “Our biggest weapon as the people is our unity. And for me, Farage poses a big threat to that.” —Munya Chawawa [22:33]

Positive Initiatives: Black Boy Theatre Club

[22:43-24:55]

• Munya’s grassroots work to create spaces for young Black boys at the theatre, nurturing emotional intelligence and conversation:
  “Theater might be the first place I actually saw a Black man cry... A combination of those experiences... made me want to start the initiative to get young Black boys into the theater.” —Munya Chawawa [23:29]
  • Reflections on seeing an all-Black cast in One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest and having real conversations about mental health.

The Purpose and Limits of Satire

[24:55-26:14]

• Weighing the value of satire—does it effect change, or simply comfort the afflicted?
• Munya’s personal philosophy:
  “If one of my videos hasn’t made you laugh, hopefully it’s made you smile. And if it hasn’t made you smile, hopefully it’s made you think. I think laughter and being able to think about something and discuss something are two of the best weapons we have against an increasingly darkening, miserable, misinformed world.” —Munya Chawawa [25:32]

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• “Comedy’s a rubber sword because it has a point, but it doesn’t draw blood.”—Munya [06:35]
• “You’re not really there to be liked. You’re there to hold up a mirror and ask society, ‘Do we like this bit of ourselves?’”—Munya [09:10]
• “In order to fight something terrible from happening... We would be the ones who would have to stand up and unite. But the more and more we divide, the less likely that is in future.”—Munya [22:06]
• “If one of my videos hasn’t made you laugh, hopefully it’s made you smile. And if it hasn’t made you smile, hopefully it’s made you think.”—Munya [25:32]

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Important Timestamps

• 02:50 – Munya describes the overwhelming modern news environment and satirical improvisation
• 05:09 – Discussion of viral video success and sketch satire
• 06:18 – Why satire is thriving in the present moment
• 09:46 – Explaining the Trump-wrestling connection (WWE theory)
• 16:16 – Munya’s Zimbabwean childhood and its impact on his politics
• 18:05 – On the venom of current political discourse and the dangers of binary populism
• 22:43 – Black Boy Theatre Club and its mission
• 24:55 – Does satire challenge power, comfort people, or both?

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Tone and Style

The episode is lively, sharp, and self-aware, blending Munya Chawawa’s quick wit with deeper, earnest reflections about the purpose and risk of political comedy in an age of division. The conversation mixes humor with seriousness, using satire as both shield and sword against societal fatigue and apathy.

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For more:

• Munya’s documentary Wrestling with Trump is available on 4OD.
• Follow Today in Focus for further in-depth conversations on current affairs, journalism, and the role of media in the modern age.

Transcript

[Munya Chawawa]

This is the Guardian.

[Noshi Nikbal]

Today. The art of making you laugh in the age of the algorithm.

[Kai Wright]

From globalization to innovation sustainability to market volatility, there's always more than one side to a story. Explore different perspectives on today's most important business and economic issues with the Flipside podcast from Barclays Investment Bank. Hear two research analysts in a lively debate and get insights from every angle to further inform your view. Listen to the Flipside on your favorite platform.

[Munya Chawawa]

Hey, guys, come with me. To survive the apocalyptic hellscape of Britain after the local elections, I start each day disappointed.

[Noshi Nikbal]

Munyechuawa. Even if you don't know his name, you will almost certainly have seen one of his skits. He's the guy in your feeds who will take a nostalgic chart banger and turn it into a political parody.

[Munya Chawawa]

Now, on to meditation. To achieve the perfect om. I imagine I'm a reform counsellor being asked to name one policy other than immigration.

[Noshi Nikbal]

He first blew up in the pandemic. Rinsing the Health Secretary.

[Munya Chawawa]

Creeping with the Tory next door. Wasn't me. Set you on a summer that Met. Bangle banging on my down the street door.

[Noshi Nikbal]

The Prime Minister. I was in the garden with my

[Munya Chawawa]

Tories trying to sip a little beer. It was byob, had a case of Corona or three.

[Noshi Nikbal]

The sheer absurdity of living through lockdown.

[Munya Chawawa]

I got something to say. Yeah, it's great. Covid. Seven days. Check it out. Yeah.

[Noshi Nikbal]

Since then, he's racked up more than a billion views. He's appeared on Celebrity Bake off and Taskmaster.

[Munya Chawawa]

I mean, look, it's a little moist, but it's more dry than moist. So I think that is done. It is raw. I can do better. Next round, let's shake on it.

[Noshi Nikbal]

Made documentaries on Kim Jong un and Robert McGarvey, all the while putting a very modern twist on the hoary old tradition of political satire. But as the news moves faster and our reality becomes weirder, how do you find the funny? From the Guardian, I'm Noshi Nikbal, Today in Focus. Munya Chihuahua on making jokes in a perma crisis. Munia Chihuahua. Welcome to Today in Focus.

[Munya Chawawa]

Thank you for having me.

[Noshi Nikbal]

Now, you're a comedian and satirist who, by bypassed traditional comedy routes and you just went viral on social media instead. Given the news cycle, which is, of course, relentlessly bonkers, do you feel spoiled for choice in terms of subjects to take aim at, or do you find it bewildering?

[Munya Chawawa]

It's a great question because it's changed so quickly in lockdown, especially the News cycle felt pretty intense, but it was like one big story a week, one big announcement a week, and you would drive all your resource to kind of skewering that. Now it's just crazy. I mean, it's the way the algorithms are programmed as well, which is to just constantly make us feel like we're behind, constantly make us feel like we don't know it all. And the only security for being in the know, which of course is the currency of conversation, is to stay online, is to be chronically online. Now there's almost too much to play with as satirists, or at least for me, it forces me to be more selective. I was at the the Brits and this lady grabbed me and she was like, you should be writing a parody right now about the Iran war. Which really? Yeah, I mean that, that killed. That killed my desire to be on the dance floor. I was like, okay, I should be working.

[Noshi Nikbal]

He said that if it's gone completely crazy, at what point do you think the news has tipped for you where it is now, just beyond your processing power?

[Munya Chawawa]

Well, sometimes my worry is that the total sort of onslaught and constant barrage of, of news actually doesn't allow us to really form a thought. You're, you're constantly sort of just dipping your toes in the water of a story and then forgetting about it. I would say that this is why actually I started to pivot to long form. My videos are sort of like marathoned comparative to what we're told to make. So they're like 90 seconds minimum. Which is I was gonna say.

[Noshi Nikbal]

I mean, I thought they were still short. Is he making 7 minute films now?

[Munya Chawawa]

90 seconds is like a Scorsese movie in Instagram. It's a long time. Like being able to skewer the Iran war in a way that makes people feel seen and makes people feel like you've hit the key beats and you've been sensitive enough, you know, 90 seconds, I kind of need that time.

[Noshi Nikbal]

What's been your biggest video and consequently, which is your own personal favorite? Hands up for Get Ready with Suella. It just cracks me up. Every time I watch it, I still giggle.

[Munya Chawawa]

Hey guys, this is a day in the life with me, Suella Barberman. So I wake up each day at about 8:30 and do some yoga. Here's me doing the poor child's pose. Then I have a quick facetime with Satan just for some early morning motivation before making a steaming cup of atrocity. It's a special blend made from 100 immigrant tears. I was like, I wonder what, what it would be like if, if one of the sort of seemingly most malicious, malevolent politicians did something as innocuous as a get ready with me. That's how you end up capturing different audiences, because you got all the sort of the young TikTok users who are like, oh my God, I recognize the format. Then you've got everyone who's been feeling quite left out in the cold by Soella and then they meet in the middle like that. That, that combination is so exciting to me.

[Noshi Nikbal]

Can I just. Was it a conscious decision to not wear a wig and put a T shirt on your head? Because that is, that is one of the most funniest parts of it. It's just like, look, you know what?

[Munya Chawawa]

Sometimes the, the, the wigs just don't ARR.

[Noshi Nikbal]

I mean, your videos have now had over 1 billion views. And there's also so many people making political comedy on social media now. Why do you think it is that satire is booming?

[Munya Chawawa]

Well, satire ultimately is its own form of accountability. There's a really great quote which I will probably now butcher. Comedy's a rubber sword because it has a point, but it doesn't draw blood.

[Noshi Nikbal]

Right.

[Munya Chawawa]

So obviously in, in Britain is quite. Western culture is very individualistic, so the narrative is always, oh, are you worried about this person? This person's doing better than you. This person's doing, you know, has more followers, more views. But in satire, that's a great thing because ultimately we're providing more jump off points for conversation, discussion, accountability. So I'm really pleased to see everything from, you know, you'll have tick tockers who do like news roundups, Scottish swearing news.

[Kai Wright]

We've got local elections a day and I'll tell you what, you asked me to name my favorite politician, right? Now it'd be easier to name my favorite memory. Fucking Jedward.

[Munya Chawawa]

You have, you know, other maesterists who do like real long form explainers of things. So you don't know whether the British Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, will be forced to resign, but you don't want to look like a thicky thicky dum dum in front of all your mates. Here's a quick rundown before you become the human equivalent of lemon and herb seasoning with a smattering of nuclear waste as well. That is fantastic, because so long as there's a discourse between all of us, we can speak truth to power, we can hold power to account.

[Noshi Nikbal]

Would you say that your audience was already quite politically engaged or do you think you've brought politics to a new audience.

[Munya Chawawa]

I mean, that would be an amazing privilege if that has happened. And, you know, to a degree there's evidence of that. Like I will constantly be stopped and messaged by people who will say, like, I care about politics now, or, you know, this is how I get my news. Or you've, you've put it to me in a way that I can digest. I remember once I got messaged by this guy and he said, you know, I'm from a very, very posh background. You know, I'm talking, we host cheese and wine nights with the boys. But I will take your videos into those, you know, highly sophisticated evenings of debauchery. And as you know, an upper class white man, it's a conduit through which I can discuss with other men of that demographic things that they may not have thought of or things that they sort of, you know, push by the wayside. And that's great.

[Noshi Nikbal]

When you, although you didn't come up like many traditional comics through the stand up circuit, I can't necessarily imagine that online audiences are any less brutal, if not more so, because you've got the, you know, the benefit of anonymity. What is it like being so big online and how do you deal with the criticism that comes with it?

[Munya Chawawa]

You know, politics now as we know it, often relies on us being very thoughtless so that you can be fed a narrative or, you know, culture wars can be opposed onto you. And you just go, yeah, that's right. Without actually, you know, taking time to think. Do I agree with that? Do I disagree with that? I've met people before who, for example, disagree with some of the stuff I said, but will be like, well, thank you for bringing it up and that's great. And I think I don't, you know, I'm not a trained satirist by any means, but from my definition, it's kind of like, I don't know if you're really there to be liked. You're there actually just to hold up a mirror and ask society, do we like this bit of ourselves? And if not, what are we going to do about it?

[Noshi Nikbal]

We now have Donald Trump, Mark 2, in the White House, a president that seems beyond parody. You've made a documentary about him exploring his relationship with, Check my Notes, the World of Wrestling.

[Munya Chawawa]

What do you think of the theory that pro wrestling might have influenced Trump? Everything he does is the psychology of pro wrestling.

[Noshi Nikbal]

Can you tell me about it?

[Munya Chawawa]

All right. The documentary is a thesis which, which proposes what if Donald Trump, you know, one of the most powerful leaders in the world, maybe the most powerful, has based his entire political blueprint on WWE wrestling. Professional wrestling, as in the oiled up Budgie Smuggler wearing Superstars. What if that is source material for the President? And if you watch wrestling, or if you've ever watched wrestling, when you really squint and take a look, the parallels are undeniable. People think of it as people just dropping elbows and power drivers. But the WWE was notorious for weaving these really emotive storylines that kind of really throttled all of our kind of most venomous emotions, Right? And if you look at some of the dramatic devices that wrestling uses to do that, they're very intelligent, Right? So first of all, you have stuff like the smack Talk. Everyone I know can quote the Rock's catchphrases. You know, shut your mouth and know your role. Take this, turn it sideways, stick it up your candy ass.

[Kai Wright]

The Rock is gonna go out there tonight and do what he does best. And let's play the smackdown on your Rudy Poo.

[Munya Chawawa]

Then you have stuff like the Foreign Hill, which was creating these villains who really just embodied the stereotype of all these foreign nationalities. You know, during the Cold War, all the villains were these Soviet Russians, right? Post 9 11, it was Muhammad Hassan who was carrying out, like, you know, martyrs rituals during matches. You had an Iranian American villain back in the day who'd got square off against Hulk Hogan called the Iron Sheik, whose finishing move was called the Camel Clutch. In the arenas. What would happen, these Foreign Hills would come out is you'd have thousands of people and then hundreds and thousands of people watching at home screaming, usa, usa. That's how you dialed up the patriotism to the max, Right? And then, of course, the kayfabe. You know how people say wrestling's fake? Yes, to a degree that's true. But we would describe as kayfabe, which is the idea that in wrestling, you see these storylines which almost push you to the edge of plausibility. But as an audience member, I'm happy to suspend my disbelief because it's just more fun that way. And so when you now step back and I. If I said to you, can you think of examples of all those three things in Trump's presidency? Smack talk. Sleepy Joe Biden, Crooked Hillary.

[Kai Wright]

Sleepy Joe. Sleepy Joe Biden, Sleepy person.

[Munya Chawawa]

Do we have foreign heels? Well, apparently Mexicans are rapists. Haitians are eating the cats and dogs.

[Kai Wright]

They're eating the dogs. The people that came in, they're eating the cats. They're eating. They're eating the pets of the people that live there.

[Munya Chawawa]

That. That sounds pretty foreign, Healy, to me. And then with regards to kayfabe, how many times have we seen Trump say something which hasn't materialized and has sounded ludicrous to begin with?

[Kai Wright]

I will have the horrible war between Russia and Ukraine totally settled. I'll have it done in 24 hours. We have a plan because of the power of our military where every bridge in Iran will be decimated by 12

[Munya Chawawa]

o' clock tomorrow night, when then it doesn't materialize. He's like, well, hang on, I was only, you know, you can't take anything he says seriously. That is Wrestling 101.

[Noshi Nikbal]

Coming up. Can political satire bring together a divided Britain?

[Kai Wright]

I'm Kai Wright.

[Noshi Nikbal]

I'm Kari Sherman.

[Kai Wright]

And we are here to tell you about our new show, which is rooted in this feeling that at least I have. I know you have, where, you know, it's kind of like when you wake up in the morning and you pick up your phone and you're just hit in the face with a fire hose of news, right?

[Noshi Nikbal]

Like there's war, there's authoritarianism, our planet is burning. I could go on and on and on.

[Kai Wright]

I could go on and on and on. But, like, we're trying to figure out how to manage it, right? Like, how do you manage it?

[Noshi Nikbal]

I manage it by leaning in and trying to learn more and trying to figure out, okay, how can I be smarter about this particular topic and who can I talk to that's going to make me feel better about it?

[Kai Wright]

And who can tell me who's responsible for the mess that I'm reading about? So that's our mission. That's the show.

[Noshi Nikbal]

Welcome to Stateside with Kai and Carter. We're a new show from the Guardian.

[Kai Wright]

We're talking to big thinkers and the best journalists just trying to understand the world through smart conversation and honest reporting.

[Noshi Nikbal]

We don't have billionaires telling us what to say.

[Kai Wright]

Stateside with Kai and Carter is out now every Monday, Wednesday and Friday.

[Noshi Nikbal]

Follow on Apple podcasts or catch us wherever you watch or listen.

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[Noshi Nikbal]

So Minya, you were born in Derby, but you spent a period of your childhood living in Zimbabwe before returning to the uk. How has that impacted how you see politics? What lens does it give you?

[Munya Chawawa]

When we used to drive past Mugabe's complex or whatever it, wherever it was that he lived that I remember as a kid we were told in the car, just look down like don't, don't look at the, at the complex because there were armed guards there and it was very fear driven. That's what my recollection is. Even to the point where when the president and his and his convoy would travel, all of the cars would have to part like the red Red Sea either side of the road. It didn't matter what situation you were in. And you know, we had family friends who were maybe listening to Kiss FM or whatever the Zimbabwe equivalent was, too, too loudly not to hear the sirens, right? And then you'd be stuck up at gunpoint. Why didn't you stop for the president? So to move to England, which, you know, for all we say that's bad about it, has a very active democracy. You know, we have local elections, we have big elections. You can critique a politician on social media. That's a privilege. I'm, I'm very grateful to exercise because had I stayed in Zimbabwe, I don't know what would have happened to me if I'd, if I'd taken the same career path in Zimbabwe.

[Noshi Nikbal]

I mean, if you'd done one Mugabe video, we wouldn't be talking.

[Munya Chawawa]

That would have been a wrap. I mean, to be honest, I think I'm currently banned from Zimbabwe and North Korea, which, which ruins any future stag deuces, doesn't it?

[Noshi Nikbal]

How do you feel about making comedy now when the conversation around immigrants class race in this country has notched up crazy levels? How do you process, filter and then make fun of that?

[Munya Chawawa]

Yeah. I mean, look, the feeling of venom at the moment is very different from what it was in lockdown. In lockdown, it was a very different period because it felt like we as the people were all frustrated at a higher entity, which was the government we were punching up. You know, I've, I mentioned this term of the foreign heel, right, which is a foreign villain that encapsulates your worst fears about people. I do believe that is something that has bled from, you know, wrestling not just into US politics, but to a degree into here as well. Because it makes things so simple. Basically, the simplest things are binary. It's either good or evil, it's either right or wrong. Right. And it's so easy just to take something as nuanced as immigration and to, to say, listen, I'll give it to you astray, we're good, they're bad. But, but it's not like that. You know, the complex issues fall along the spectrum and so does it feel

[Noshi Nikbal]

like Nigel Farage is operating on a spectrum though, does it?

[Munya Chawawa]

No, but that's not, that's not how you operate as a populist. And you know, I've tried to say this in the past, which is populism is a, is a really exciting, shiny new thing. That's how it looks on the surface, but the actual mechanics of it are so dangerous because this is like if I was sat here in a different multiverse and I said, I would like to be PM and as Prime Minister, these are my promises to you right here. I'm going to make sure everyone in A E gets seen within 30 seconds of arriving. I'm going to make sure that every family gets like a 10,000 pound bonus at the end of every year just to say thank you. And I'm going to make it so everyone has like a six bedroom house that I guarantee you I'm going to do that as Prime Minister. And it's just such a shame that I'm so far away from being Prime Minister, I'll never actually be able to do those things. It doesn't suck, you know, I can say whatever I want because my proximity to that role is so far away.

[Noshi Nikbal]

It's not the case with him, though.

[Munya Chawawa]

Well, with Nigel fraud, yes, but for a long time it was the case, which was. His proximity to the role of PM was so far. Of course you can say what everyone wants to hear because the opportunity for them to falsify you on those things is near impossible. Right. But now as we've crept closer to elections. I mean, the three years away. But.

[Noshi Nikbal]

But that gap is narrowing.

[Munya Chawawa]

It's narrowing. But even then it becomes dangerous because if Farage gets into power and suddenly all these promises and pledges and, you know, means of raising money and sort of kicking out immigrants, if there are still problems, right, what you do is you double down on what the problem is, as opposed to the fact that you have failed in your solutions. So it becomes, okay, like, all the immigrants are gone now, but did you know that this group are actually a real drain on society? We should probably get rid of this group of people. You have to continually create enemies in order to maintain popularity when the things that have made you popular aren't working.

[Noshi Nikbal]

How does watching him on TV or wherever, like, how do you feel? What's your sort of visceral gut feeling now, given everything you've said about where it started to where it's hopefully not ending?

[Munya Chawawa]

Right. Well, when I, you know, when I watch Trump or Farage, you know, I see populism at. At play. And that's what makes me sort of dig deeper into the mechanics of why is this working on people? And, you know, I do think it's because, you know, life has become very hard for very many. And as I mentioned, when that is the feeling, you just want to make it stop. You just want a simple answer. And so anyone waving a simple answer saying, I got the solution here becomes the most appealing prospect. And it's just. It's just like a very dangerous way to think. And also, what I like least about Farage is sort of how he has turned people against each other. Because the thing we're forgetting is if everything goes to pot in Westminster, like, we the people, we're the ones who can fight it, we're more than them. But in order to fight something terrible from happening, God forbid, if we ever were encroaching upon a dictatorship, we would be the ones who would have to. To stand up and unite. But the more and more we divide, the less likely that is in future when we really need to. To be together. You know, so much of the change that happened in lockdown and the people that got fired and the baddies that lost is because we as the people were really discontent and dissatisfied with what we were seeing. And we made it loud and collectively heard that we want change and we saw change. So our biggest weapon as the people is our unity. And for me, Farage poses a big threat to that.

[Noshi Nikbal]

Putting fudge aside for a minute, you have actually tried to make grassroots Change and do these positive, unifying things. And I am thinking specifically about Black Boy Theatre Club. Why did you start it?

[Munya Chawawa]

Theater is like the only place that you can go and actually experience human emotion in full flavor. In 4K. As a man of colors, you know, some of the. With a black dad as well, like a black Zimbabwean dad. That's something I didn't see from him. You know, I've never seen my dad cry. I've never seen him really. The only emotions I've seen are sort of like furious or kind of quite, you know, quite reserved. Those are like the, the, that's the emotional spectrum I had to work with. And then when I began going to theater, there's that theater might be in the first place I actually saw a black man cry.

[Noshi Nikbal]

Right.

[Munya Chawawa]

You know, or upset or elated, jubilant. And so a combination of those experiences and then also, you know, going to the theater, looking around and being like, bloody hell, I'm the, I think I'm the only one here. Like, am I allowed to be here? Made me want to start the initiative which was to get young black boys into the theater.

[Noshi Nikbal]

How many boys are you taking on these trips?

[Munya Chawawa]

So we did, on the launch year, I think we've done 150 students. So we'll do like 15 to 20 boys. We'll go to Nando's afterwards, phones go in a box and then we'll discuss the trip. Most recently we went to watch One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest with Aaron Pierre. And that was a fantastic example of a play that was so important for them to see because in this interpretation it was a mainly all black ensemble. And so you're watching these, you know, black men with really, really battling against these sort of mental illnesses. Black men and mental illnesses is something that we're very desensitized to, especially here in London. And we, and we had a Q A with them afterwards. And then we got to discuss some of that stuff. And I just think, I just thought to myself, like, I, I wonder how many other young black 15 year old boys would ever have a conversation with grown black men about mental health. Hopefully many. But if that's the only one, what, what a great conversation to have. What a great place to have it in the Old Vic. You know,

[Noshi Nikbal]

Thinking about what Chris Morris, you know, legend that is now, he argues that there's no point in satire if it's replicating the core, which in other words means, you know, don't bother if you're keeping the establishment giggling and you're not really challenging it. The other point for him is that it should should try to change something now others. Reena Hyde from the Guardian. She would say that satire never changes anything, but would need jokes as comfort in hard times. And times right now are hard, almost beyond parody and difficult to comprehend. What's your view?

[Munya Chawawa]

I think it's both of those things because the reality is sometimes I think of saying this and I don't think I've ever said it out loud. Maybe this will be my weird slogan. I'll get tattooed on my low back. It's like if one of my videos hasn't made you laugh, hopefully it's made you smile. And if it hasn't made you smile, hopefully it's made you think. I think laughter and being able to think about something and discuss something are two of the best weapons we have against an increasingly darkening, miserable, misinformed world fair. And so if the videos include either both or one of those elements, to me it will always be worth doing.

[Noshi Nikbal]

I don't know if there's anything left to be said. Munya, thank you so much for your time.

[Munya Chawawa]

Thank you for having me.

[Noshi Nikbal]

That was Munya Chihuahua. My thanks to him. You can watch his documentary wrestling with Trump on 4 od now. It is very funny and very smart. So I do recommend that you do. And that's it for today. This episode was presented by me, Noshi Nikbal. It was produced by Eleanor Biggs. Sound design is by Ross Burns. The executive producer was Huma Halili. We'll be back later this afternoon with the latest.

[Munya Chawawa]

This is the Guardian.

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