A (3:04)

My first trip to North Korea was in 2008, so it's already been many, many years. My last trip was in 2017, and I spent the better part of three years there trying to negotiate the opening of the AP Bureau and then, of course, building that bureau. And Those years were 2011, 12 and 13 so right at the tail end of Kim Jong Il and as his son, Kim Jong Un was coming to power.

B (3:34)

So you've witnessed close up, what happens when North Korea is preparing the heir to take over from the father. And North Korea, of course, is an incredibly closed dictatorship and really secretive. But there's been so much speculation recently, hasn't there, about this tall, mysterious teenage girl who's been appearing alongside the Supreme Leader at events.

A (3:56)

It's quite the look. Daddy and daughter in matching black leather

B (4:00)

coats, straight out of the matrix. Ju Ae makes frequent appearances on North

A (4:06)

Korean media, but is never referred to by name.

B (4:10)

Instead, tell me, what do we know about her?

A (4:12)

North Korea is very secretive when it comes to the first family. They only refer to her as the beloved daughter, or the cherished daughter, or the respected daughter. But that was the same, I would say, with Kim Jong Un. Do know is that she has been presented to the people. She's been all over the state media. I mean, the pictures and the video, just incredible. But we don't know exactly when she was born. We don't even know exactly what her name is.

B (4:40)

That's crazy.

A (4:41)

I know. But I should point out that we don't know exactly when Kim Jong Un was born either. And his name was misspelled by the South Korean intelligence for years until it was published for the first time in 2010. So they do keep a lot of these things very secret. However, as you say, as you know, we've seen quite a bit of her. And so of course, that is what all the speculation is about. What does it mean? What does it say about possible succession? Is she being groomed to be the next leader of North Korea? How old is she?

B (5:16)

So the best estimate, I think, is that she might be about 13 at the moment, which would track back to her being born, what, 2012? Ish. And that's when you were living and working in North Korea. Right. So did you have any hint that she had come into existence?

A (5:29)

I don't have any intelligence, but I was there on the ground watching very closely, and I look at pictures, whatever it was you can see. Of course, I saw them in person many times as well. But in December of 2012, when she appeared for the first anniversary marking the death of her father in law, Kim Jong Un's wife looked very pregnant. And then when we saw her again In January of 2013, she was not pregnant. Exactly. So I have no additional. I have no intelligence, I should say. But what I did have access to was the North Korean people. And so we had a Lot of fun gossiping a little bit about the prospects of a child having been born in 2012. And I will tell you why that year is important. So 2012 would be the hundredth anniversary after the birth of Kim Il Sung, who is the founding leader, would be Kim Jong Un's grandfather, the great grandfather of whichever child was born in 2012. So there's a kind of mystical element about the numerology. They take that quite seriously. And so it wouldn't be surprising if a child were born in 2012. Or to be honest, they don't have to tell us. They can also just the the child could have been born in 2013, and they can still say the child was born in 2012. But I base some of my assumptions about what the official dates will be on this understanding of the importance of these patterns, numerology, and the mythology.

B (7:12)

And I just don't quite understand why Kim Jong Un would be so cagey about this. And given there's such a cult around him, why not a cult around his family? And I'm just thinking about if a British prime minister has a baby, Tony Blair, remember when him and his wife Shree had a slightly surprised fourth baby, and we saw them bringing baby Leo into Downing Street. You know, if our future monarch has a baby, oh, my goodness. We know every coffin spit about that pregnancy and the birth. So why are they so secretive about this stuff in North Korea?

A (7:44)

Well, I should point out that we do have one source. Dennis Rodman, the American basketball player who made a trip to North Korea in 2013 and came back and announced that he had held the baby of Kim Jong Un. NBA legend Dennis Rodman, a friend of Kim Jong Un, said he held the dictator's baby daughter. During a visit to the reclusive nation, Rodman said the baby's name was Ju Wei. Of course, we have no verification that that is actually her name. And there's a lot of speculation about what her name might be, but that's what we've been calling her because Dennis Rodman says that now he is not a fluent Korean speaker. So I think we have to take that with a little bit of a grain of sal. However, I will say that the way that Kim Jong Un, the leader of North Korea, has presented his family is actually quite unusual. If you compare it to his father, Kim Jong Il, who was incredibly secretive. As I said, he never presented Kim Jong Un at all. We never saw Kim Jong Un's name, the current leader, until 2010, and he kept his family under wraps. But the grandfather, Kim Il Sung. I'm sorry it's so confusing with all the kins, but the grandfather was very open with North Korean people when it came to his family. And I do think that the current leader is trying to replicate that sharing of family details to follow in the footsteps of his grandfather, who was adored by the North Korean people. So we tend to compare everything to Kim Jong Il, the second leader. But I always go back to the grandfather, and I see so many parallels between the way the daughter today is being presented to the people and the way that the first leader of North Cree presented his family. And those images, we can't see them. But I spent a lot of time in North Korea, and I can tell you that those images are everywhere. The children of North Korea spend so much time learning about the Kim family, so these images would be familiar and would draw this line between the grandfather and grandson down to that next generation. So if I can just point out a couple details, like lately we've seen pictures of her firing weapons.

B (10:03)

For example, where Kim Jong Un has visited a munitions factory. Kim was accompanied by his teenage daughter, Kim Ju Ae. The two were seen walking through the factory floor together, inspecting firearms manufacturing lines and observing production processes. They even took part in a shooting drill. Images show.

A (10:23)

I will say that this image of a woman firing a pistol goes back to a traditional image in North Korea. You will see images. There's a whole legend about Kim Jong Il's mother. So the first lady. The first. First lady. The first. First lady of North Korea shooting a pistol as well. So there's a legend around that. And, you know, I just went back to read the biography of Kim Jong Il leader number two, and there's an entire section in his biography around how he was dressed up in a general's uniform called the boy general was taught to shoot pistols, was taken everywhere by his father, and his taken to all of the military sites, to military parades. So behind closed doors and within their mythology and within their storytelling, that was very much a part of the making of the future leader.

B (11:21)

But that's far from the only occasion we've seen her with her dad. Right. Where have we also seen her pop up?

A (11:27)

Well, I think the first time we saw her was at a celebration for a military anniversary.

B (11:32)

And when was that?

A (11:33)

Would have been a couple years ago, three years ago, I would say. There's another image that I have in my head of her sort of walking hand in hand with this massive rocket in the background. So going to ballistic missile launches. Just images that are hard to imagine for any child. But also, of course, we look at that and wonder, is this part of the making of the mythology of this young woman? What does that say about whether, what role and what position she's going to have in this family in the future leadership of North Korea? And I would say it is too soon to say. She is still only, by my estimate, 13. And yet when I went back to the biography of Kim Jong Il, the second leader, it does say very clearly that he started advising and serving as his father's assistant around the time he was in his late teens.

B (12:27)

Sure. And do you think that she's basically on work experience at the moment, shadowing her dad, or has she got a role in doing anything important in running the country, do you think?

A (12:37)

I think at this point she's shadowing, you know, Kim Jong Un, the current leader, also shadowed his father. That was all kept under wraps, but for about a year and a half before his father passed away, and quite possibly longer. We just haven't seen those images.

B (12:54)

And Kim Jong Un was in his twenties then, was he, when he was unveiled to the world?

A (12:58)

Absolutely. Exactly. He was in his, he was still in his 20s, still very young.

C (13:03)

But this muscle flexing also provided a stage for his chosen successor's grand debut. For the first time, newly minted four star general Kim Jong Un joined his frail looking father at a major public event.

A (13:18)

Still very much a young man with the chubby cheeks. I'm hesitating because he still has chubby cheeks, but that's a little different.

B (13:27)

I think he likes a good dinner, doesn't he?

A (13:29)

Well, I will say, I will say that it's noticeable with the three of them, the first family, because when you're in North Korea, Korea, the people are very, very thin, most of the people, and you see quite a lot of malnutrition. But I can tell you from personal experience that it's a badge of pride to have a little meat on the bones. So when I, when I went to North Korea and they would tell me in Korean that my body had improved, you would think that means you lost weight, but no, it means you've gained weight. And I think it says something about, for, you know, in North Korea, a country that's really struggled with chronic food shortages. So I say it lightly, it is very serious that many, many people are going without proper nutrition because so much of the money is being poured into these nuclear weapons and these ballistic missiles. So we shouldn't lose sight of that. But in this society, I think that having a little meat on the bones is seen as wealth and prosperity. And so in some ways, I think that that's a very deliberate picture that they're trying to present. So she does seem exceptionally tall, and I will say that that's quite unusual.

B (14:39)

Yeah, yeah. I guess if you're, if you're suffering from malnutrition, you do not grow to a great height, do you?

A (14:45)

They are exceptionally tiny people. And in such contrast to the South Koreans who in a couple generations have, I would say, are a foot taller. So same people a couple generations ago, entirely different today.

B (15:01)

And we're talking about Kim Ju A as if she's the only child of Kim Jong Un. But there are rumors, aren't there, that she's got at least one brother, maybe two. What do we know about that?

A (15:12)

Yeah, I have to say I have never heard anything gossip wise or never seen any indication of an older sibling. It's quite possible, because I haven't been there, that there's a younger sibling. However, it's very possible the Kims traditionally have sent their children to Switzerland.

B (15:31)

Yeah. So I was thinking it would be crazy. Imagine being at that Swiss finishing school. There's a mysterious Korean teenager who turns up who's a bit hazy about their background.

A (15:42)

Well, I will say that there are North Korean diplomats, children at schools in Europe, and they're very sophisticated, so they wouldn't necessarily stand out as being from North Korea. And there are students, the children of diplomats. Now, Kim Jong Un, when he was in Switzerland, was passed off as the child of one of these diplomats.

B (16:04)

Oh, was he? Right. Okay. So he wasn't allowed to reveal that he was the future supreme leader.

A (16:09)

No. And he went by a pseudonym. So I think it was quite a surprise to some of his classmates in Switzerland to find out that this kid who loved basketball, who loved the Chicago Bulls, was the future leader of North Korea.

B (16:21)

So hence Dennis Rodman getting invited as a basketball player. But Rodham aside, let's talk about the patriarchy for a moment. How big a deal will it be if she does become the next leader as a woman? Because I'm watching all of this sitting in UK where the Labour Party is in charge, and the Labour Party has never, ever had a female leader. So it seems a bit crazy to me that North Korea might get one first.

A (16:44)

Yeah. We have never had a female president in the United States either.

B (16:48)

True. Poor Hillary. Poor Kamala.

A (16:50)

Yeah, came close. I would say that that opinion is probably divided over among experts and even among defectors about whether North Koreans would accept a woman as their leader. But I would Say, being a North Korean from the Kim, descended from what we call the Baekdu line, having that royal lineage in the North Korean world, it's operated much like a monarchy. And so I would say that that is the most important factor that outweighs gender. The way that I try to understand it is that we've had other monarchies in patriarchal times where a woman has ruled at a time when women have no rights. And I'm thinking, for example, of Queen Victoria, I think it's something along those. And I would say that we tend to look at North Korea through the lens of the country, the Korea we know better, which is South Korea, which is also in the middle of a gender war right now. But in some ways, North Korea, because men have such a protracted, compulsory, mandatory military requirement for the men.

B (18:03)

Yeah. Is it how many years? Remind me it's not just a one year gap year.

A (18:07)

Isn't it can be up to. Exactly. And so what I found and what surprised me when I was in North Korea is that the civilian sector is completely dominated by women. So there are sectors where they can rise. And I should point out that the Foreign Minister of North Korea right now is a woman.

B (18:28)

Oh.

A (18:29)

So it is possible. And I think that in the scheme of things, to be a member of the Kim family born in 2012 is going to outweigh whether or not you're a male or a female. So I think that that's a more important factor from my perspective, and that whichever child, male or female, was born in 2012 or that they say was born in 2012 is likely going to be the next leader of North Korea.

B (18:57)

What do you think the strategy is so far with Kim Ju Ae's public appearances? What do you think Kim Jong Un is trying to convey by having her by his side?

A (19:06)

I think most importantly, what he's trying to convey is that they're a family. Okay. I shouldn't say a family just like any other. Clearly they're not a family like any other. But that he wants to portray that image of a family life just like his grandfather did. His grandfather brought his son out to public occasions and introduced his wife. And they were very much a part of the narrative. And I think he's trying to replicate that. And there's a kind of normalcy around presenting your family. And so in some ways, he wants to get rid of things that secrecy of his father's era. And he would very much like North Korea to be treated with respect and treated like a normal country. It is clearly not what we would call a normal country because they have invested in nuclear weapons rather than building roads and feeding the people. And the other part of it might be to prepare the people for a future that could be led possibly in some capacity by a woman. So it's all very interesting, it's all very speculation at this point. She hasn't been given any official titles as far as we know.

B (20:16)

She still hasn't even confirmed her name.

A (20:19)

Yes. So let's give it a couple years, but we'll be watching very closely. But I think that if we look to past president, it wasn't a sure thing either. I think that with Kim Jong Il, his father made him really work for it. His father really kept him on tenterhooks about whether he was going to rise to that position. And so it's quite possible that there are several children or that there's more competition for the throne, as we would say behind the scenes. But at the moment he's trying to present this, this cohesive, tight family image.

B (21:00)

And should we read anything into the fact that such a young teenager is being paraded before the cameras? And when I ask that question, I guess it's, you know, Kim Jong Un is only in his 40s, but he doesn't look the healthiest chap, does he? We know that he likes a crafty cigarette. I think he likes a drink, doesn't he? Are there any reputable sources suggesting that he's not long for this world?

A (21:20)

Kim Jong Un. Reports from the Reuters news agency say medical experts have been sent from China to advise on Kim's health. Rumors have been circulating about the health of the North Korean leader. He hasn't been seen in public in over two weeks. You know, I sat behind him at an event, at a private, a closed event, and I was amazed when they brought out this tray with this beautiful crystal ashtray. And yes, he smoked. It was interesting to me that they showed that, that he did it so publicly because at the time I think there were some anti smoking campaigns. One of my reporters put a little no smoking sign on his desk, which I thought was very cute to remind himself. But you know, he is quite hefty. I think South Korean intelligence estimates that he's about 300 pounds, so about 140 kilos.

B (22:12)

Okay.

A (22:13)

I do think that there's concern for his health in the sense that, you know, his father and his grandfather both died of heart attacks. So clearly a history of heart disease, a history of diabetes in the family. And so that's certainly got to be something on the Minds of the circle around him.

B (22:33)

But did his dad and grandpa die in their 40s as well? How old were they when they.

A (22:37)

No, they, you know, Kim Jong Il was. Oh, now I'm 77, I believe. And so, you know, they were quite a bit older. So he has had some bouts with health. He's disappeared a few times where he's been out of the public eye for long stretches at times. And I remember one time he did come back and he was limping slightly or he had. That was interesting because the fact that he was willing to show his vulnerability is something that we hadn't seen in the past, but absolutely. I think there are concerns about what would happen in a country if he were to die suddenly. But I will say that those concerns were there in 2008, when his father suffered a stroke and was in a coma. And yet the country was far more stable than anyone could have predicted. So the system is in place.

B (23:32)

Yeah, yeah. And if you were Kim Ju Ae, would you be feeling secure in yourself? Because her family has a history of behaving quite brutally even to close relatives, don't they? Wasn't there that crazy assassination in an airport?

A (23:50)

Yes. So that was Kim Jong Un's older half brother, the one son that we did know about, who we for many years assumed was being groomed to become the next leader. And he was assassinated in Kuala Lumpur with toxic nerve chemical weapons. And so. Quite. Absolutely. And, you know, I wrote a story for esquire magazine in 2017 after that assassination about the really brutal choices you face if you're a member of the Kim family. So you either have to play along and support the leader or defect. So we have had some members of the Kim family defect, and one of them, of course, is the son of that half brother who was assassinated. He has defected, and he's living somewhere very quietly in the United States.

B (24:41)

Oh, goodness. Imagine if he's your neighbor and you have no idea, because I imagine he's not. He's not open, presumably, about who. Who his family is.

A (24:49)

He was educated in Europe. He's fluent in English. So my hope is that he's able to build a life of some sort away from the target on his back, and away from the scrutiny of people like us, because I was chasing him. But he deserves to live a life as well. But that is an example of somebody who has to make a choice to go. And so it is for the daughter, of course. She was born and raised to play a role. And I think the Kims know very well, just like a royal family that they are born to play a role. Now, if they can't do that, then absolutely they've got to find a way out.

B (25:34)

Coming up, what opportunities and challenges will Joue inherit if she does take over?

C (25:54)

Decisions made in Washington can affect your portfolio every day. But what policy changes should investors be watching? Washington Wise is an original podcast from Charles Schwab that unpacks the stories making news in Washington right now and how they may affect your finances and portfolio. Listen@schwab.com WashingtonWise.

B (26:20)

How would you assess how North Korea is doing right now under Kim Jong Un? If Kim A takes over soon, what kind of North Korea is she going to be inheriting?

A (26:30)

His goal is to compel the world to recognize and accept North Korea as a nuclear weapons state. So what we say about North Korea is that they've crossed the nuclear threshold. They have proven that they have an intercontinental ballistic missile and that they have mass produced thermonuclear bombs. What they have not done is put those two things together and tested that,

B (26:57)

and let's hope they don't do that.

A (26:59)

But they have proven with individual tests, a nuclear test underground, as well as intercontinental ballistic missile tests, that they have the capability. So they've crossed the nuclear threshold. Will we allow them into this small club of countries that can forever hold onto their nuclear weapons? That is what he wants, and that is where he's going. So now what that means, if he reaches that point, perhaps in negotiations with President Donald Trump, for example, it means that he will be able to hold on to those weapons and forever be able to play nuclear blackmail with the region, and that would get handed down to the daughter. So in some ways you could say that he is paving the way for the next generation and for North Korea to always have that nuclear deterrent. And that's what he's telling the people. I'm doing this to protect you. And so on the other hand, of course, if things continue the way they are, what he would be leaving her with is a country that is extremely isolated, extremely poor, despite what we see, and has a limited future. And so I personally think that he is trying to change things so that he can leave a country to the next generation that has a more viable future, but that is a future that he believes needs to be secured through nuclear weapons. So I've been watching this strategy unfold and it's terrifying, I will tell you. Yeah.

B (28:32)

And it's coming at all at such a sensitive time in the world, isn't it? Given all of the instability, I wonder what challenges as well as opportunities there are for him or his successor.

A (28:43)

Right now, the relationship that Kim is focused on is the relationship with Russia. He has found this golden opportunity to give Russia something that Russia needs, and that has been Soviet era ammunition, artillery, Rockets. Rockets, ballistic missiles and soldiers. Right. In the fourth year of this.

B (29:02)

The last time you were on the show was talking about the North Korean soldiers in Ukraine.

A (29:06)

Yes. And so we're watching that relationship closely. I'm also looking very closely at the relationship between North Korea and Iran. How much has North Korea helped Iran build what has been a surprising arsenal of ballistic missiles? These are limited relationships. They're very transactional. I think he recognizes that they have their lives limits. And so what is it that he wants? I do think that he would like to have more of a relationship with China and more of a relationship with the United States, as odd as that seems. But it. And also with South Korea, but on his terms. So he's trying to set the grounds now so he can build those relationships on his terms. But, you know, the fact is the country is extremely underdeveloped. The people are extremely poor, and that generational trauma of malnutrition, it gets passed down.

B (30:00)

Yeah. It's a shameful legacy, isn't it?

A (30:02)

Absolutely. And for me, absolutely heartbreaking to go between north and South Korea and just see how could two countries go such opposite directions. One country, very much the darling right now in terms of everything Korean is just super hot, Right?

B (30:17)

Yeah.

A (30:18)

The other country, a pariah. And what it's meant for the people. Right. For the people of North Korea.

B (30:25)

Jean, it's been fascinating to talk to you again. Thank you so much.

A (30:28)

Thanks for having me back for this discussion about what's happening with that young daughter.

B (30:37)

That was Jean Lee. She has her own excellent podcast, the Lazarus Heist, which tells the tale of a North Korean scam on a huge scale. And you should definitely check that out. Before we go, I just wanted to recommend something from our colleagues at God Guardian Australia and our sister podcast, Full Story. Their latest episode is about a fascinating and highly decorated former soldier from Australia called Ben Robert Smith, who was arrested this week accused of war crimes. The Guardian published a series back in 2023 about all of the allegations. It's called Ben Robert Smith versus the Media, and you can find it wherever you get your podcasts. And that is all for today. This episode was produced by Geyser and it was presented by me, Helen Pitt. Sound design was by Ross Burns, and the executive producer was Elizabeth Kassin. We will be back in your feeds later today with the latest.

A (31:32)

This is the Guardian.

C (31:42)

Decisions made in Washington can affect your portfolio every day. Day. But what policy changes should investors be watching? Washington Wise is an original podcast from Charles Schwab that unpacks the stories making news in Washington right now and how they may affect your finances and portfolio. Listen @schwab.com washingtonwise.