A (2:43)

Yeah. Although there have been a number of kind of Labour grandees, David Blunkett, Alan Johnson, Gordon Brown brought in to kind of boost morale and. And urge restraint ahead of this afternoon's vote. And as per Guardian reporting from your colleagues in the lobby, there is a growing sense of rival factions who are preparing how to oust Starmer from power. What that might look like and the timings. Can. Can you, about what we've learned?

B (3:13)

Yeah. I mean, we're just hearing so many different things every day from various different factions of the Labour Party. One of the really interesting things for me is that different factions seem to be uniting in a way that we actually hadn't seen before. So the right and the left now seem to be working together. And we're told that there are two or three statements doing the rounds that might be signed and might be presented to the Prime Minister after the local elections. One would call for him to bring back Andy Burnham as an mp. Another would call for him to set out a timetable for his departure as Prime Minister. Both would kind of do fairly similar things. They put a timeline on his premiership. But one of the most interesting things for me is that it's not just one group of disaffected MPs who's doing this. It is different groups from different parts of the party all working together, and that's probably what's more dangerous than ever for the Prime Minister.

A (4:03)

So, as you say, it's a number of rival factions, but who nonetheless share the view that it's a question of when, not if. So let's look at this testimony that's been given to the Foreign Affairs Select Committee this morning. One from a former very senior Foreign Office official, the predecessor to Sir Oliver Robbins, who we heard from last week, but perhaps more of a household name is Morgan McSweeney, who was, of course, Keir Starmer's former Chief of Staff, who was central to the appointment of Peter Mandelson as U.S. ambassador and who gave a very long testimony. It's perhaps one of the very few, perhaps the only times that we've heard from him at this length.

B (4:42)

Yeah, I think so. We were trying to figure this out earlier this week. I think this is the only I've heard him interviewed in front of A select committee, which, for someone who's been at the top of politics for as long as Morgan McSweeney has, is actually quite unusual.

A (4:53)

And so what were the key takeaways, in your view?

B (4:56)

Well, I think Philip Barton kind of did what we expected him to do. He said a couple of interesting things. He said, yes, there was an atmosphere of pressure around the appointment of Peter Mandelson. I knew it wanted to be done, I knew it wanted to be sped through the system. He said that he didn't remember Morgan McSweeney swearing at him, which was one of the accusations that been leveled it at Keir Starmer's former chief of staff. He also said, quite interestingly, he thought it was normal process to do security vetting before an appointment was made or an appointment was announced, which is not the way around that this government chose to do things with Peter Mandelson. Yes, I think Morgan McSweeney was interesting in different ways. He certainly testified for longer. For a start, he was also more crucial to the whole decision making process. He said first of all that he'd been lied to by Peter Mandelson, which is something that a lot of people have said along the way. He said a couple of things that didn't quite stack up. He said that he'd been reassured in advance by Peter Mandelson that his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein was only a passing acquaintance. That doesn't quite stack up because we knew from reporting already by the time he was appointed that Peter Mandelston had stayed at Jeffrey Epstein's flat in New York. And this was even after Jeffrey Epstein was put in jail for child sex offences. And that did get picked up on by the committee. He said that there was an atmosphere of pressure, but that's just normal in politics. We didn't want anybody to bypass any vetting procedures. And he said if he'd have known that the full extent of Peter Manson's relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, he wouldn't have made that appointment. We also had it confirmed, by the way, one little tidbit for Westminster watchers. We had it confirmed that the second person in line for that job was George Osborne, the conservative former Chancellor. This had been reported. In fact, there's a hilarious shortlist list of candidates, three candidates for that job, one of which was Peter Madison, one of which was George Osborne, the third of which was the TV star Bear Grylls. Apparently that three got whittled down to two and Peter Madison was eventually appointed.

A (7:00)

Yeah, I've got to say there was a lot of scream face Emoji shared in the latest WhatsApp chat at that mention of George Osborne, as you say, something that had been reported but was finally put on the record today. But like you say, kind of, Morgan McSweeney's key point was that he felt that he was deceived by Mandels, that there was some concerns and there were concerns raised in meetings in number 10 about what that relationship was. But the decision was taken to press ahead because it was felt he was the right political choice at that time. Morgan McSweeney interestingly said that had Kamala Harris won that election, they would have made a different choice. But then he said in September 2025, when he saw the first tranche of the Epstein files, saw the photos, saw the extent of their relationship, of their financial relationship, he described it as a knife to soul, in quite poetic language. How plausible is that? Like you say, because there was also talks of, you know, a lunch, a dinner in 2024, this sense of them having a fairly intimate relationship.

B (8:05)

Yeah, I mean, what an interesting phrase that was a knife to the soul. Very poetic, as you say, but quite out of character. I mean, Morgan McSweeney is a fairly dry, fairly softly spoken guy who doesn't tend to wax lyrical. And I think we mainly saw that in front of the committee today. And then suddenly he came up phrase that felt a little bit prescripted. I hope that's not unfair. I mean, I think, as I said, you know, the thing that really doesn't ring true about that is the fact that he knew we knew that Peter Manson had continued his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, even post the charges. And so, you know, for Morgan Mix, we need to put on a shocked face and clutch his pearls. Having found out that they were really were, that Jeffrey Epstein and Peter Mandelson were really close friends. Didn't quite ring true. But I think it is true to say that both Morgan McSweeney and the Prime Minister were surprised. I think we were all surprised at the closeness of that, the full extent of that relationship.

A (9:04)

Yeah. So Parliament is about to take a break ahead of these very crucial local May elections on May 7th. I'm just wondering, is this Mandelson affair something that's having real cut through for MPs, for councillors, for mayoral, as they're going around constituencies, knocking on doorsteps? Is it one of these things that matters to people interested in politics? Or does it have cut through because it's this sort of sleaze aspect that people are so tired of in politics?

B (9:35)

You know, it actually doesn't seem to be cutting through. I mean, I've talked to Quite a few MPs now who say that it's not being brought up on the doorstep with them. In fact, once said, the good news is that people are not bringing up Peter Mandelson on the doorstep. The bad news is they are constantly bringing up Keir Starmer and how much they hate him. So part of the problem here is it doesn't really matter whether the Peter Mandelson story cuts through to the public or not. They have already made their mind up over Keir Summer. And one of the reasons that I think Labour MPs are kind of going through this, another period of questioning the Prime Minister's future is not just because this Peter Mandelson story is broken, but because we're in this pre local election period where they're spending a lot of time on doorsteps talking to constituents and they're all getting the same message back. We don't like the Prime Minister. And I think, you know, even if Peter Mandelson was not a story in Westminster right now, we'd still be hearing of Labour MPs thinking about whether to try and oust Keir Sarmer purely because they're talking to constituents right now and they have a very clear message about him.

A (10:36)

Yeah, that message seems loud and clear. Kieran, thank you so much for your time.

B (10:39)

Thanks for having me.

A (10:42)

That's it for today. My huge thanks again to Kieran Stacey, the Guardian's policy editor. You can keep up with his reporting and that of our lobby team over@theguardian.com and I recommend today's episode of Science Weekly, where Madeline Finley will be looking at food intolerances and how to know if you actually have one. Thanks for listening to this episode of the latest Today in Focus will be back in your feeds as usual tomorrow morning. The latest will be back tomorrow night. This episode was presented by me, Lucy Hoff. It was produced by Bryony Moore. The senior producer was Ron Ram Goblin. The lead producer was Zoe Hitch. This is the Guardian.