Trump lashes out at Nato: will Europe stand up to him? – The Latest

Summary

Podcast Summary: Trump lashes out at Nato: will Europe stand up to him? – The Latest

Podcast: Today in Focus
Host: Lucy Hoff (with John Henley, Guardian Europe correspondent)
Date: April 1, 2026
Length: ~12 minutes

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Overview

This episode of Today in Focus explores rising tensions between Donald Trump and US NATO allies, with a particular focus on Europe’s shifting attitudes in response to Trump’s latest criticism of NATO during the ongoing Iran war. Host Lucy Hoff is joined by Europe correspondent John Henley to dissect the political, economic, and diplomatic ramifications for Europe as the US becomes an increasingly unpredictable ally. The episode also examines how European unity is being tested as the continent faces potential security and economic shocks.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Trump’s Renewed Attacks on NATO and European Reactions

(00:45 – 04:51)

• Trump’s Statement: Trump has reiterated his skepticism toward NATO, suggesting he would "reconsider US NATO membership beyond the Iran war" and emphasizing his lack of allegiance to the alliance.
  • “He has said this morning if he would reconsider US NATO membership beyond the Iran war… I was never swayed by NATO. Putin knows that too, by the way.” – Lucy Hoff (01:01)
• Fundamental Misunderstanding: The US narrative seems to conflate NATO’s defensive purpose with an obligation for allies to join US-led wars outside the alliance’s remit.
  • "It seems like there’s this fundamental misunderstanding from the United States that NATO is a defensive alliance…” – Lucy Hoff (02:54)
  • “We don’t actually have much of an alliance if, you know, the members don’t come to our help when we need it.” – John Henley, quoting Defense Secretary Pete Hexseth (03:28)
  • "The only one time that the US has triggered Article 5...was after 9/11 and for the invasion of Afghanistan. And every European member state responded and a lot of Europeans died in Afghanistan." – John Henley (03:50)

2. European Unity and Divergence

(04:55 – 07:26)

• Hardening European Resolve: Recent US rhetoric and the economic fallout from conflict in Iran—especially the blockade of the Strait of Hormuz—are pushing European governments closer together on resisting US pressure, though divisions persist.
  • "European resolve is kind of stiffening about...this war.” – John Henley (05:42)
• National Positions:
  • Spain and France have firmly rejected involvement (“this is an illegal war”, refusing US base use).
  • Germany, Poland, Italy previously nuanced, but are moving toward agreement with France and Spain’s position.
  • Macron and other leaders insist any European peacekeeping would follow—not precede—a ceasefire.
  • Actions: Italy denied last-minute US bomber landings; France blocked Israeli weapons flights through airspace.
    • “There is no way the Europeans are going to go into the Strait of Hormuz in a military situation, you know, where the fighting is still going on.” – John Henley (07:10)

3. Europe Confronts Consequences and Trump Fatigue

(07:27 – 11:00)

• Anti-Trump Sentiment Heightens: European leaders’ tolerance for Trump’s unpredictability and criticisms is running out.
  • “There’s a rising sense of more than frustration, I mean, you know, kind of bordering on outrage… an absolute determination this time not to give, not to write Donald Trump a blank check.” – John Henley (08:02)
  • Four/Five Key Reasons for European Hardening:
    1. Lack of Consultation: “We were not consulted.”
    2. Strategic Confusion: “There is still a complete confusion about what the actual aims of the war… are.”
    3. Distrust in Trump’s Personality: Ever-changing demands and unpredictability undermine alliance trust.
    4. Economic Threat: Risk of historic energy shock “far worse than the 1970s” if Strait of Hormuz remains blocked.
       • "One analyst said to me yesterday that, you know, this is going to make… Covid look like a… walk in the park if it actually happens.” – John Henley (09:30)
    5. Potential Migration Crisis: Especially concerning for Southern European states.

4. Balancing European Interests and Ukraine’s Plight

(10:24 – 11:53)

• Diversity of European Interests: With 27 EU member states, interests diverge—northern states focus on security, southern states worry about migration.
  • “The European Union has this great challenge of balancing all of the concerns of those countries, and it struggles at the best of times to be cohesive.” – Lucy Hoff (11:02)
• Central and Eastern Europe’s Warning: The war in Iran diverts US and European attention and resources away from Ukraine, exposing the region to greater Russian threat.
  • “Central Eastern Europe has very real security concerns of its own which are being completely undermined by this, by this attack.” – John Henley (11:35)
  • Ukraine remains “at the forefront of everybody’s minds” but is at risk of being overshadowed.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On US demands and the foundation of NATO:
  • “You kind of feel like saying, well, actually we don’t have much of alliance either when one of the members actively threatens to attack another…” — John Henley (03:30)
• On European outrage:
  • “There’s a rising sense of more than frustration, I mean… bordering on outrage, really, at what’s been attempted here. And an absolute determination this time not to give, not to write Donald Trump a blank check.” — John Henley (08:04)
• On potential economic impact:
  • “…this is going to make… Covid look like a… walk in the park if it actually happens.” — John Henley, quoting analyst (09:30)
• On European diversity:
  • “It’s never very cohesive. And the group that you’ve left out…are the Central and Eastern European states who are frantically reminding everybody… the real true crisis…should be Ukraine and Russia.” — John Henley (11:10)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:45-03:50: Trump’s statement on NATO and history of US-NATO dynamics.
• 04:55-07:26: European governments’ hardening resolve; UK and EU responses, individual country stances.
• 08:02-09:40: European outrage toward Trump; key reasons for resistance.
• 10:24-11:53: The complexity of EU interests and the overshadowing of Ukraine by the Iran war.

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Conclusion

This episode offers an incisive snapshot of a shifting transatlantic alliance, with European leaders increasingly unified in their resistance to Trump’s bellicose demands and rhetoric, driven by real economic and security implications of ongoing conflicts. Despite historical alliances, Europe faces hard choices and growing resolve not to fall in line behind an unpredictable US administration, all while wrestling with its own internal divisions and the urgent crisis in Ukraine.

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Transcript

[Lucy Hoff]

This is the Guardian.

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[John Henley]

I think it's fair to say there's a rising sense bordering on outrage, really, and an absolute determination not to write Donald Trump a blank check.

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Whatever the pressure on me and others, whatever the noise, this is not our war, but we're not going to get dragged into it.

[John Henley]

The actual concrete implications of the war for Europe are very, very serious indeed.

[Lucy Hoff]

Donald Trump once again lashes out against NATO as attitudes in Europe harden against an unpredictable US ally and as the UK moves for closer ties with Europe. From the Guardians Today in Focus, this is the latest. With me, Lucy, half foreign. I'm joined by John Henley, the Guardians Europe correspondent joining us from Paris. John, thanks for coming back. It's lovely to see you again. So, I mean, obviously we have heard attacks from Donald Trump towards NATO for many years now. It's not new to NATO allies nor to the institution itself, but he has said this morning if he would reconsider US NATO membership beyond the Iran war. And he said, oh, it's beyond reconsideration. I was never swayed by NATO. Putin knows that too, by the way. I mean, clearly it's not the time, first time he's attacked NATO. But is there something different about this or do you think this is all part of a pressure campaign related to the Iran war?

[John Henley]

I mean, who knows what is going on in Donald Trump's head really? I think, you know, as, as our colleague in Washington, David Smith put it this week, I mean, the guy, I mean, he constructs a narrative, he kind of swears blind that it's true, and then he tries basically browbeat the rest of the world into accepting it. And the problem is that with wars you can't actually do that kind of objective reality does come into effect. So I'm sure this is part of a campaign to browbeat and accept the US's very long standing European allies into accepting Donald Trump's version of reality. But for the time being, it's not happening.

[Lucy Hoff]

Yeah. And worth saying that Marco Rubio, the Secretary of state has also been stoked stirring the pot. He told Fox News last night that the, the relationship between the US and NATO would need to be re examined. I guess, I mean, it seems like there's this fundamental misunderstanding from the United States that NATO is a defensive alliance and that, and that comes into into Force. Article 5 is when one NATO member is attacked, but it does not mean that NATO members are under some kind of moral obligation to join a war that they did not decide to engage.

[John Henley]

Precisely. That's exactly right. And you know, the Defense Secretary Pete Hexseth in his media conference yesterday said pretty much the same thing. He said, you know, we don't actually have much of an alliance if, you know, the members don't come to our help when we need it. And you kind of feel like saying, well, actually we don't have much of alliance either when one of the members actively threatens to attack another, you know, as Trump did with Greenland and Denmark only a couple of months ago, or indeed we don't have much of an alliance. You could say, when Donald Trump accuses consistently America's European NATO allies of not coming to America's aid when they need it. Whereas in fact, the only one time that the US has triggered Article 5, NATO Article 5, the mutual defense clause was after 9, 11 and for the invasion of Afghanistan. And every European member state responded and a lot of Europeans died in Afghanistan. So, you know, in between the threats and the insults. Yeah, you're quite right to say there's also a fundamental lack of understanding or at least whether they're pretending. I mean, they must understand what the actual basis of NATO is.

[Lucy Hoff]

You'd hope so, but at least you'd hope so.

[John Henley]

That's the front they're putting across.

[Lucy Hoff]

Yeah. And there's also been this slightly churlish language from Trump towards Europe of, well, go get your own oil, we've got plenty. And he's upset, you know, again about NATO allies and European governments being so reticent to join his campaign. Interesting today that Keir Starmer, the Prime Minister, has announced that, that the Foreign Secretary, Yvette Cooper, will be hosting a summit of international leaders to discuss plans to restore freedom security in the Strait of Hormuz, you know, which seems like quite a good counterpointer, this show of unity amongst European governments in Kantos to this type of language that we're hearing from the U.S. yeah, I mean, I

[John Henley]

mean, there's no doubt at all that European resolve is kind of stiffening about, you know, about this war. I mean, there was A, they remain quite divided in some aspects, but they were much more divided the Europeans. And I would include the UK among, among the Europeans for the purposes of this. Yeah, but, you know, so to start off with, I mean, Spain, for example, was an, was a complete outlier a month ago. Spain said from the get go, this is an illegal war. This is a unilateral war. We're having nothing to do with it. You're not going to be able to use our bases. That Spain was alone on that. France was also pretty strong. Also Macron, Emmanuel Macron, an illegal war, you can't use our air bases either. But Germany, Poland, Italy, others were saying, were much more nuanced and were saying, yeah, okay, maybe regime change in Tehran isn't such a bad thing, but that attitude has really been changing over the last couple of weeks since the blockage of the state of Hormuz, basically, and since it became clear quite how dramatic the economic and security consequences for Europe would be. But I think it's worth saying that so far at least, the Europeans have been absolutely clear that while many of them are very willing to take part in some kind of multilateral sort of, as it were, peacekeeping operation in the Strait of Hormuz, it would have to be after a ceasefire and after the terms of a ceasefire were agreed. Emmanuel Macron very recently repeated that and confirmed there is no way the Europeans are going to go into the Strait of Hormuz in a military situation, you know, where the fighting is still going on.

[Lucy Hoff]

Yes. And has also blocked Israeli planes from flying weapons through its airspace. Italy has refused last minute permissions for US Bombers to land in Sicily, as you say, Spain, from the get go, has been very strong against the use of US Israeli use, use of their air bases. I'm just wondering, John, you know, you're in Paris, you speak to lots of interesting people within European governments, what kind of a sense you're getting about this hardening tone towards Trump. Because, you know, it's, we're a decade in now. None of this is new.

[John Henley]

None of this is new. You're absolutely right. But there is a kind of, I think it's fair to say there's a rising sense of more than frustration, I mean, you know, kind of bordering on outrage, really, at what's been attempted here. And an absolute determination this time not to give, not to write Donald Trump a blank check. I think, I think that's the thing, and I think that comes from there are four or five kind of key, key reasons behind. I mean, the first, obviously, I think, and that everybody says is that we were not consulted. The second thing, there is still a complete confusion about what the actual aims of the war, of Trump's war are. What is he actually trying to achieve? And behind that, a kind of general understanding or a general belief that this is a strategic era of historic proportions and a really stupid thing to have done. The third thing is Trump's, I think, personality, himself and his ever changing demands, his outbursts, his anger. The fact that this comes on top of the threats against Greenland. It also comes on top of the whole farce around tariffs, trade tariffs. You don't know where he's coming from. And he is just sort of essentially, you know, by turns insulting and attacking his supposed allies. And the final point, which, you know, which I mentioned briefly before, is the economic consequences. Unless this resolves very fast. Europe is heading into a potential energy price shock, which would. Which most analysts seem to believe is the worst that the continent will ever have experienced, far worse than the 1970s. And, you know, so a potential vast economic shock on a par. Well, one analyst said to me yesterday that, you know, this is going to make. Make Covid look like a kind of a, you know, a walk in the park if it actually happens. So there's that. And plus, you know, a potential new migration crisis. The actual concrete implications of the war for Europe are very, very serious indeed. So none of that is much inclined to make European leaders, you know, very friendly towards. Towards Trump's. Towards Trump's demands.

[Lucy Hoff]

Well, fairly, justifiably, John, and I suppose also, you know, we Europe, but There's, of course, 27 member states for whom, you know, they have very different national interests. You know, we talk about the northern states who are. Who have this proximity to much of the volatility, the dangers that we're seeing in the world. But we also have the southern states who would be most impacted by any future migration crisis, as you say. So the European Union has this great challenge of balancing all of the concerns of those countries, and it struggles at the best of times to be cohesive.

[John Henley]

It's never very cohesive. And the group that you've left out of that, which is equally important, I think, and maybe kind of crucially so, in terms of winning the argument, are the central and European states who are frantically reminding everybody that actually Europe's dominant, real true crisis at the moment should be Ukraine and Russia. And the war in Iran is diverting ATT attention. Critically, it's diverting enormous resources, US Resources that could perhaps otherwise, you know, have been helping Ukraine. And you know that, I mean central Eastern Europe has very real security concerns of its own which are being completely undermined by this, by this attack.

[Lucy Hoff]

Yeah, absolutely. And as you say, Ukraine at the forefront of everybody's minds as they try to and navigate this, this deeply unpredictable President. John, thank you so much. It's great to see you.

[John Henley]

Pleasure.

[Lucy Hoff]

That's it for today. My huge thanks again to John Henley. You can keep up with his reporting [e-mail] as well as rolling coverage of the Iran war today In Focus will be back in your feeds tomorrow morning as usual. The latest will be back tomorrow night. And while we've got you, please do listen to a new series series from Guardian Investigates called Off Duty, a seven part series with reporter Melissa Segura. In 2011, a Chicago police officer was murdered. Police identified four suspects. Three confess, but the fourth refused to break. He embarked on a 12 year battle to prove his innocence against a system that refused to admit it might be wrong. Subscribe to the Guardian Investigates feed or listen wherever you get your podcast. This episode was presented by me, Lucy Hoff. It was produced by Bryony Moore. The senior producer was Ryan Ramgobin and the lead producer was Zoe Hitch. This is the Guardian.

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