Lewis Young (2:42)

Yeah, I actually was doing the maths before this call and it's about 50 gigs a year, so it's about 50 extra days of work a year that I got back to practice or to experiment on things, to actually make art, to write songs, to compose.

Helen Pitt (2:57)

Wow, that's a lot. There is really a lot, isn't it? Bad news for the couples of Ireland who wanted you to play your whistle at their Wedding.

Lewis Young (3:05)

I'd say they're both delighted.

Helen Pitt (3:11)

For Lewis, the regular income changed everything.

Lewis Young (3:14)

In hindsight, it has changed my life in a huge way. It has been a bit of a fast track for me, you know, to have three years of not worrying so much about where am I going to get the money to pay for groceries.

Helen Pitt (3:29)

The Irish government says the pilot was such a roaring success that it's making the basic income for the arts a permanent thing.

Rory Carroll (3:35)

Seems to have borne out what we all knew, that this was a really innovative and wonderful scheme and has delivered.

Helen Pitt (3:43)

Irish artists are already taking the world by storm with an actress from County Kerry winning an Oscar. And the Oscar goes to Jessie Buckley. An Irish musician's riding high. So is this actually a bargain way for Ireland to punch even further above its weight on the global stage? From the Guardian, I'm Helen Pitt. Why Ireland is banking on its artists. Rory Carroll, welcome back to Today in Focus. It's very nice to see you.

Rory Carroll (4:30)

Hey Helen, thanks for having me back.

Helen Pitt (4:31)

So you are of course the Guardian's island correspondent and you've been following the story about the new financial help that is on offer for artists in Ireland. Can you just start by outlining what exactly this scheme is and how it came about.

Rory Carroll (4:45)

Artists who qualify for the scheme are given €325, that's basically £280 by the government for three years. And for this they don't need to do anything different. It's effectively a subsidy to help them focus on their art because most of them are juggling other jobs, sometimes multiple jobs. And so this is the state saying, you know what, you deserve some help. So the idea is that this will facilitate your art, make your life easier and that wider society will benefit from this.

Helen Pitt (5:18)

What were the findings of that pilot scheme that have encouraged the government to actually make it a permanent thing?

Rory Carroll (5:23)

Well, the key takeaway was that cost benefit analysis said that for every euro that the Irish state invested or spent on this, society gained €1.39 in return. Now this being partly financial but also factoring in the sense of well being of the artists, their mental health, the that they had more money in their pocket to spend in the local economy and that also we as society would then be able to benefit from their art, whatever they're producing. So it's a win win for everybody. The government says, you know, we spend too much time honoring the dead artists and not enough time, you know, and an effort, you know, helping living artists.

Helen Pitt (6:03)

Oh, that's interesting. So enough James Joyce.

Rory Carroll (6:05)

Yes. And also maybe There's a residual guilt which is that most of our best, most famous artists, they self deported. They, you know, they went into exile because they did not feel welcome or they simply didn't want to be in that Ireland of say 100 years ago. And so now the government wants to kind of be part of this sense that no, now we're embracing Irish artists and part of self identities. Ireland was the island of saints and scholars in the medieval era. Now with the island of Sea Mat and Niqap.

Helen Pitt (6:34)

Yeah.

Rory Carroll (6:34)

You know, so you could see there's a bit of a parallel with Cool Britannia, the whole Blair years of Oasis and so on. So it's been very well received by you know, the, the arts community. And the government meantime is, are you know, busy patting themselves on the back.

Helen Pitt (6:48)

And this feels from my position sitting in London today, quite a radical thing to do. I'm imagining what Nigel Farage would have to say if the Labour government here dared to bring in something like this. Can you just tell me a bit about the government in Ireland where they sit politically and how this has been received?

Rory Carroll (7:05)

Yeah, well the background to this was during the COVID time when the government was throwing money to support local businesses and different sectors to sustain them through this. And the Green Party then in power lobbied very strongly for this. And so the government ran a pilot project.

Helen Pitt (7:18)

Today, 2000 artists and creative arts workers have been informed that they have been selected to participate in the pilot Basic Income for the Arts program. With this scheme, Ireland is showing how we value our arts and artistic practices

Rory Carroll (7:34)

which has now been made permanent. Now a bit of fiscal context is the Irish government is kind of rolling in cash.

Helen Pitt (7:41)

Wow, what a position to be in.

Rory Carroll (7:43)

Yeah. And all hail the Tech Bros and Big Pharma because this is largely thanks to corporate tax revenues and specifically US corporations that pay huge fortunes to the Irish state. So it really is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow for the Irish state for now.

Helen Pitt (8:01)

So you say that this was originally an idea of the Green Party, but the party that's in power in Ireland at the moment is not Green Right.

Rory Carroll (8:08)

The current government in Ireland, it's a coalition between Fianna Fowl and Fine Gael and they're both soft centre right parties and it's a very kind of a status quo government, not radical, but they signed off on this and this new administration, which is in a sense a sequel to the previous government, have decided to keep it because they felt that it's basically very popular and it's good value for money.

Helen Pitt (8:31)

Yeah. And it's very interesting to hear that that side of politics is taking the arts so seriously. I just wonder, in Ireland, has there been much opposition to this idea? I mean, I could imagine it being painted by some people as a sort of luxury and nice to have a frippery rather than, you know, a sort of core part of society.

Rory Carroll (8:48)

It's been surprisingly uncontroversial so far, and I think partly that's because, you know, it's not a period of austerity and so there's no cutbacks. And in fact, the government has been ramping up spending across the board for the last few years, to the point that's actually worrying a lot. Autonomous saying, this is too much, you know, we need to tighten the belt. But there are some voices who are saying, hang on, we need to look more closely at this, that this is a very clubby thing that's happened. And I'm here, I'm paraphrasing between the art sector, the lovies, as they would put it, and the government that's once kind of basking the glow of approbation from these artists who are getting, you know, money for nothing.

Helen Pitt (9:24)

I'm sorry, but, like, at the end of the day, it's not really up to the state or me as a taxpayer to fund your hobby.

Rory Carroll (9:33)

And so some people saying, well, there's several problems here. One, fiscally, down the line, once you make this permanent, when the worm turns and austerity comes back, as I'm sure it will, what then? Another critique is that there's a fairness issue here that, you know, why should artists get €325 per week when the carers allowance is €260 per week, the disability allowance is 244. And additionally, what about the quality of the art? I mean, does anyone know? I mean, what are they producing any good? Do people care about it? And these, for a moment, are kind of largely unanswerable questions.

Helen Pitt (10:09)

I mean, I guess what makes good art is famously subjective, isn't it? Are you saying, then, that in order to apply for this income, you don't have to prove that anybody enjoys your art, that they pay for it, that you've got a career that you could ultimately sustain?

Rory Carroll (10:25)

That's right. It's selected by a lottery. So currently, the 2,000 places that were allocated, I think there were maybe 8,000 applicants. And it wasn't that they had to submit their work to some committee that was then going to sit there with a clipboard and decide who merits this largesse the most. No, it's just done kind of quite randomly, so you're not having bureaucrats deciding what is good art or not. But on the downside though, is there any control element here either people who, you know are most financially in need or those who are actually really talented and just need a leg up? There's a kind of a blind spot there. You could say that. Do they need the help? And I think the short answer is, well, yes, because, I mean, given the housing crisis, which is a severe, severe shortage of affordable housing across Ireland, not just Dublin, and cost of living prices, which everybody knows about, it is extraordinarily tough to be an artist unless you're the lucky kind of 1% that you're having TV deals, publishers throwing money at you. But for the rest, it is very tough to exist and keep your art going.

Kaelyn Hogan (11:35)

Hi, I'm Kaelyn Hogan. I'm a writer and journalist from Dublin and I wrote a book called Republic of Shame about Ireland's religious run institutions. And I'm still working as a freelance writer living in the city.

Helen Pitt (11:49)

Like Lewis, Kaelyn was one of the 2,000 artists selected to take part in the pilot. She recently wrote an article about her experience for the Guardian. Tell me, how did you first hear about this scheme that was promising a basic income to artists?

Kaelyn Hogan (12:03)

I couldn't imagine having that kind of security. I think when I started out as a writer, I used to work in hotels and markets and bars and wherever I could to just make money to support my writing. Most artists I know, most writers I know, they're forced to sort of live at home or insecure housing situations because they can't afford their own spaces to live, let alone to work, let alone having a workspace.

Helen Pitt (12:30)

Kalyn had to live at home with her parents to save money on rent while writing her book. Being an artist was just too expensive. And was there ever a point where you came close to giving up being an artist because it was just too hard?

Kaelyn Hogan (12:44)

Yeah, I think there's definitely been times where it felt like a real struggle and that it might be easier to just get a job in an office or do work that would be more reliable, you know, that would just make life a bit easier. Insecurity, financial insecurity is just inherent in the creative sector. Whether you're doing really well or not, it's not really down to individual effort. You know, most people are struggling to make ends meet. Some months you get loads of commissions, you get loads of projects and, and you're good for paying your rent and getting by. But other Months, you don't know what's going to come in the door. So we live with that sort of uncertainty and that does create a lot of anx.

Helen Pitt (13:26)

Yeah. And getting chosen for the pilot scheme must really have been a weight off your mind.

Kaelyn Hogan (13:30)

I was given this payment of €325 a week to support my work with no strings attached really. I could continue my creative work. I could continue any projects I wanted, apply for grants if I wanted. I just had to fill out a survey, I think it was, every six months, detailing the hours of work I put into my creative practice. Other work I did outside of that also, you know, expenditure on living costs. But it also asks questions about your mental health, your well being, to try and I guess get an idea of artists lives and the challenges they're facing and how they go about their work and how the basic income was affecting that.

Helen Pitt (14:18)

And what was it like that first month when that €325 hit your bank account?

Kaelyn Hogan (14:24)

Yeah, it was hard to believe. I think there was also a bit of guilt there, you know, because obviously it was only 2,000 people who received it. And so I had many friends who were artists who were not getting this support. I have a small space in an artist studio called the Backloft in the heart of Dublin city and it was strange to feel that, you know, I might be getting the basic income and artists around me who are part of a community that I really value and that they weren't getting that same support. And that was difficult. I think a lot of people didn't speak about it for a while. Yeah, there was a bit of guilt there, I think. A bit of shame.

Helen Pitt (15:05)

And particularly presumably in a city like Dublin, which is incredibly expensive. Right, what's it, you know, how feasible is it if you're, if you're not independently wealthy, to be an artist, to be a writer, to be creative in Dublin?

Kaelyn Hogan (15:16)

Well, that's the thing. I mean, the basic income, it was a huge support, but I mean it pretty much covered rent that, you know, and maybe a bit of food on top of that. I was very lucky at the time. I was living with friends and I had quite affordable rent for Dublin. But you know, the housing crisis has only deepened in recent years and rents keep skyrocketing and artists whose work is precarious. Anyone whose work is precarious is disproportionately affected by that housing crisis, which, you know, I believe is a result of political policy and a lack of political will to ensure homes are affordable. And so it's hard then when we see this Irish government, who has overseen deepening inequality in the country and a deepening housing crisis, talking about being global leaders for supporting artists, when, you know, artists are disproportionately affected by those policies that fail to ensure that everyone's BAS needs are met. So the basic income was a huge support that gave us that bit of security to really dedicate ourselves to our creative work. But you couldn't live on it for the year, necessarily. And with rent so high, with the cost of living so high for everyone, it was just allowing us to kind of make ends meet. And obviously you could work on top of that, which was a huge benefit. And so it did give people a security that they hadn't had before.

Helen Pitt (16:50)

What did you use the money for then? Was it just your rent?

Kaelyn Hogan (16:53)

Yeah, I really took it as time to focus on my writing. Being able to experiment more as a writer, not be constantly chasing money, being able to decide which projects you dedicate yourself to. It allowed me that creative freedom to work with other artists, to collaborate. You know, I helped create events, raised money for Palestine, raised money for a local rape crisis centre and was really meaningful work that I might not have been able to do because I would have had to take the job that paid the most.

Helen Pitt (17:29)

What do you make of the scheme being made permanent now?

Kaelyn Hogan (17:32)

The way it's being covered, it seems like suddenly artists in Ireland are all going to be supported and all have access to this, but it's a tiny fraction of people in doing creative work who will ever get access to this support unless they significantly expand it, which is what the National Campaign for the Arts and what praxis the Artists Union have been calling for is a dramatic expansion of the scheme, given that the government is saying it pays for itself.

Helen Pitt (18:08)

Can you just tell me, prior to this basic income, what kind of funding have artists and the arts generally received

Rory Carroll (18:14)

in Ireland per capita is far more generous here than Northern Ireland, because artists in Northern Ireland are often lamenting, you know, the woe, that they're stuck on the wrong side of the border. Whereas the UK has had so much austerity and cutbacks, Ireland, you know, proportionally is a lot more generous. But that said, individual artists I meet, I mean, none of them say, oh, it's great, because again, the context in Ireland, it's such an expensive country now to live and survive, that, you know, there is a sense that this for some could be just like a band Aid on a wider wound. When to function in Ireland now requires so much money.

Helen Pitt (18:50)

When I think about artists, musicians, that came of age in the 80s, early 90s. They always talk about how going on the dole was sort of maybe the equivalent of a basic income, and that the state at that point was kind of turning a blind eye to the fact that they weren't really applying for jobs and great art came out of that kind of scene. People who were on the dole, people who were in squats. Was that the case in Ireland as well?

Rory Carroll (19:12)

Yes. And not to be competitive, but, I mean, we were especially depressed and deprived, you know, I mean, Ireland was economically, say, basket case, but, you know, it was a very depressed economy in the 1970s, 1980s, which is why a lot of our artists and young people who all emigrated, not just the artists, I mean, everybody, I mean, Navis, bricklayers, and they would go end up in squads in London. Beyond the familiar home from home reassurance of north London's legendary Irish pubs, thousands of young emigrants face an increasingly rude awakening. And so that tradition of the starving artist in their garret certainly has been part of the Irish story. And I think now this money is available, the government want to be kind of the sugar daddies of this. And they're basking and loving this, you know, this glow from the gratitude from the arts community. Because often, of course, artists are, you know, very critical of those in power. You know, for example, cmat, some of her. Her songs make stinging rebukes of the. The Irish state and Irish governments.

Helen Pitt (20:14)

Nobody that I grew up with basically lives here anymore. Everyone has had to emigrate. Nobody can afford to live here. Everybody's leaving home, and everyone who's left behind is left with less and less public services and health care. And.

Rory Carroll (20:33)

And so, you know, for Irish policymakers, this, though, is quite, quite lovely because you get to be the good guy, at least for a while.

Helen Pitt (20:41)

And how important do you think the arts are culturally in Ireland? And again, I'm making the comparison with the uk, which, if you look at the educational curriculum, is still very much bearing the brunt of what the Tories did. Michael Gove's reform, which was all, you know, reading, writing and arithmetic, it was about STEM subjects. So science and engineering and the arts were very, very much downgraded under those 14 years of Tory rule. And I wonder how the situation's been in Ireland in terms of valuing an artistic and a cultural education.

Rory Carroll (21:13)

Ireland really does value the sense of itself as an artistic hub and that in terms of writers, singers, going right back to the bards of old. And, you know, the Irish like to think that this continues and is real. It's not just some kind of national mythology, you know, so soft power to be more mercenary about it is partly what draws tourists.

Helen Pitt (21:36)

Yeah.

Rory Carroll (21:36)

And also helps Ireland wriggle its way through kind of foreign policy dilemmas at times that this kind of aura that comes with Irishness at least, so we hope helps us in a kind of an economic sense and gives us an edge.

Helen Pitt (21:58)

Coming up, will other countries follow Ireland's lead? And Rory, do you think that this scheme is ambitious enough and broad enough enough that it will actually change Ireland both in terms of the cultural landscape at home and how it's view viewed abroad?

Rory Carroll (22:22)

On the first? No, I think it's too limited to have like some kind of great societal impact. 2000 artists is great, but you know, there's thousands and thousands more.

Helen Pitt (22:32)

Yeah.

Rory Carroll (22:32)

And even for those who are lucky enough to get this money, it's not a complete game changer. They will still need to hustle and do other jobs and other things to survive. I don't think there's going to be some great kind of Medici style, kind of renaissance blossoming in Ireland just because of this. I think the impact will be more limited. But in terms of the impression of Ireland, and again, for the government and the state and wider society, it's projecting the sense that, oh, we really do value artists. Look at what we're doing.

Helen Pitt (23:00)

It's great PR for them, isn't it?

Rory Carroll (23:02)

It is, it is. And so again, it feeds into this projection of Irishness and that works for us, this perception. We want to continue to nourish that and not let it atrophy through either the cost of living crisis or gentrification. You know, we're still the land of Beckett and Joyce, except now it's updated for the 21st century.

Helen Pitt (23:22)

And so it is fair to say, I think, that Irish artists are having a moment. You've got writers like Sally Rooney and Naesha Dolan, actors like Barry Keoghan making waves. C Matt, who was nominated for the Mercury Music Prize. What do you think is behind this?

Rory Carroll (23:35)

If I knew what it was then, then, you know, I would kind of bottle it and we would keep it as our secret because we don't know.

Helen Pitt (23:42)

And we spoke to one artist who had been on the pilot scheme called Kalin. She's a writer and she said the scheme doesn enough that it should be available for all artists. Do you think that that's at all feasible? You know, as you said, the Irish government is swimming in money at the moment.

Rory Carroll (23:57)

I don't think that's going to happen. I mean, fiscally, you know, it become an issue the more and more money they spend on it. And there is some nervousness that at some point, you know, these tax revenues that we're rolling in will stop or ebb. And so other sectoral groups now, for example, there's fishermen and farmers arguing out other sectoral interests saying, well, why not? Not an equivalent for us. And so I think those other sectoral interests will be lobbying the government to get their bit of it. And that will be another reason for the government, I think, to, you know, to pause any expansion of the artist scheme.

Helen Pitt (24:28)

And do you think there are lessons that other countries, the UK and beyond, can take from this scheme long term

Rory Carroll (24:34)

in terms of the societal impact on it? We don't know yet. I mean, how impactful this is going to be. It can be actually a win win, politically speaking, but for a government that's facing austerity or economic problems or that has on its right flank critics who will shriek at these ne' er do well artists with their tattoos and their multiple piercings and their Doc Marten boots, all getting, you know, money for nothing from the taxpayer, I mean, you could fill in the, the blanks of that criteria.

Helen Pitt (25:03)

Yeah, I can imagine the Daily Mail headline already.

Rory Carroll (25:05)

Yes, completely. And you know, the government here is loving the fact that they, they can say, look, we're the only ones in the world that do this, aren't we marvelous and everybody should learn from us. But you know, the conditions really are quite specific here. And I think that's why up to now it's only been really not countries, but cities that have tried something similar. Like if you're a city like say San Francisco, where, you know, you might actually have a lot of money and a kind of artist tradition, then go for it. But at a nation state level, it becomes much more problematic.

Helen Pitt (25:46)

I mean, there may be some people who would say, you know, why should artists be getting that money?

Kaelyn Hogan (25:50)

I think that it can feel a bit superficial, maybe the idea of, you know, supporting the arts at a time of reels, at an international crisis, but I think that it's very meaningful. A lot of times in Ireland, creativity has been a response to challenge, to occupation, to famine, to forced migration, and more recently to inequality. And that creativity has also given a huge amount back to communities. I wrote about Irish rap about a decade ago, and I remember young musicians telling me that, you know, it used to be about making it big in London or in the States, but they really wanted to make it big in Ireland. They wanted to create a scene and a community that they were proud of here in Ireland. And I think that's been a really important shift. There's been a bit of an Irish revival in terms of pride in our identity, pride in our language.

Helen Pitt (26:46)

Yeah. An Irish woman's just won an Oscar.

Kaelyn Hogan (26:49)

Absolutely. And like, what's driving that? Yeah, but you know, she had to be, you know, she got support when she was, you know, a young actress, start now to pay her rent and to go to school. So, like, I think as artists we have this unique position in that we're often really affected by those policies that create inequality and create precarity. But we're also, you know, in a unique position to speak out about that inequality. We have a voice through our work to challenge the government or to challenge policies, to speak about how that lack of political will is affecting communities. And the Basic Income does provide a lot of creative freedom, interestingly, to do work that might be more radical or might sort of challenge those accepted narratives as well.

Helen Pitt (27:48)

That was Kaelyn Hogan. You can read more of her thoughts about the Basic income scheme@theguardian.com My thanks to her and to Rory Carroll and to Lewis Young. His song seashell Shanty, which he made while he was on the Basic Income pilot, is playing us out today. And before we go, I wanted to recommend a new Guardian series. The Guardian Investigates podcast has just launched Off Duty, a new seven part series with reporter Melissa Segura. In 2011, a Chicago police officer was murdered. Police identified four suspects. Three confessed but the fourth refused to break. He embarked on a 12 year break battle to prove his innocence against a system that refused to admit it might be wrong. Subscribe to the Guardian Investigates feed or listen wherever you get your podcasts. And that is all for today. This episode was produced by Eleanor Biggs and Eli Block and Sunders Abdi. It was presented by me, Helen Pitt. Sound design was by Rudy Zagadlo and the executive producers were Hummer Khalili and Elizabeth Kassin. We'll be back in your feeds later this afternoon with the latest.

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Kaelyn Hogan (29:58)

was great, but this traffic is awful.

Helen Pitt (30:00)

Um, can we stop at a bathroom?

Kaelyn Hogan (30:02)

Are you alright?

Helen Pitt (30:03)

And keep having stomach issues after eating

Kaelyn Hogan (30:05)

like diarrhea, gas and bloating, abdominal pain

Helen Pitt (30:08)

and sometimes oily stools. Sound familiar? Those stomach issues may actually be a pancreas issue called Exocrine Pancreatic insufficiency or epi. Creon may help manage EPI Creon is a prescription medicine used to treat people who can't digest food normally. Pancreas doesn't make enough enzymes.

Guardian Announcer (30:26)

Creon may increase your chance of fibrosing colonopathy, a rare bowel disorder. Tell your doctor if you have a history of intestinal blockage or scarring or thickening of your bowel wall, if you are allergic to pork or if you have gout, kidney problems or worsening of painful swollen joints. Call your doctor if you have any unusual or severe gastrointestinal symptoms or allergic reactions. Take Creon as directed by your doctor and always with food. Do not chew capsules as this may cause mouth irritation. Other side effects may include blood sugar changes, gas, dizziness, sore throat and cough. These are not all the side effects of Creon. Call 800-633-9110 or visit creoninfo.com to learn more. More that's creoninfo.

Farnoosh Tarabi (30:54)

Com.

Helen Pitt (30:54)

I'm asking my doctor about epi and if Creon could help.