Lucy Hoff (3:31)

Yeah, a tragedy. And Israel's justification was that this was targeted strikes for Hezbollah. But the fact that these strikes involved so many civilian casualties is. Is just devastating. What's the feeling in Beirut now? Because. And across the country, because there must be, as we touched on on the show yesterday, huge confusion about people's safety, whether they can return home, what they should do. There were no evacuation orders issued yesterday. Why the strikes felt so shocking and devastating.

Will Christieu (4:07)

Yeah, I think, you know, everyone's in mourning. Today has been declared a national day of mourning in Lebanon, and people are just sort of taking stock of what happened. People are still being pulled out of the rubble. The death toll, we have about 254 people, is initial. They're still finding people, oftentimes not intact. So I think people are sort of reeling. And everyone knows someone who was affected. You know, a good friend of mine, her entire building was destroyed. Her mom was in the building five minutes before. You know, you can imagine what sort of feeling that puts in you. And then I was talking to doctors. You know, one of the doctors I spoke to was Dr. Ghassan Abu Sitti, who was present in Gaza during. During the war. And he said what he saw yesterday was similar to what he saw in Gaza. Children coming in without their parents, their parents, some of them dead, elderly patients, mass amputations. It's really. It's a grim scene.

Lucy Hoff (4:58)

It's just unbelievably grim that there's been this level of civilian death. I mean, yesterday we were talking about this fragile ceasefire that just. I mean, it seems like there's no ceasefire at all today. But at the time that this was all agreed, Pakistan had said that Lebanon was part of the ceasefire agreement. Trump is now saying, to quote him, it's a separate skirmish, but Iran is saying they will not proceed with the ceasefire unless Lebanon is included. So it just feels like the whole thing is in total jeopardy.

Will Christieu (5:32)

Absolutely, absolutely. And it's sort of hard to imagine that the people in the negotiating room didn't realize that Lebanon could be the stumbling block that breaks the ceasefire. Because Iran was very clear, Pakistan was very clear that Lebanon should be included. But at the same time, Israel and the US said there was a misunderstanding. But there's certainly no ceasefire in Lebanon. There's still bombing today. Yesterday was the deadliest day of the conflict in decades. And so people here are wondering what's happening. You know, people are sending back and forth statements from Trump, who as always is contradicting himself. So it's a little bit like reading the tea leaves.

Lucy Hoff (6:09)

And in terms of what Israel's intentions are, I mean, obviously weakening and wiping out Hezbollah has long been an aim of the Netanyahu government. Back in 2006, intensive war. But that really focused on the south, didn't it? Do you think that the aims of the Israeli have changed or that they are acting perhaps with greater ambition?

Will Christieu (6:37)

So Israel also has been a bit contradictory in its statements in terms of its war aims. What it said at first is that it wanted to disarm Hezbollah, and then last week it said that might not be possible just through an invasion ground campaign. What we know is that they said they'll occupy the southern part of the country up until the Litany river, and that they'll continue their strikes until, I don't know, they see fit. Their war aims are achieved.

Lucy Hoff (6:59)

I mean, there was talk of, at that time of a security zone, which is exactly what we. The language we hear about Gaza, right?

Will Christieu (7:06)

Yeah. I mean, that in effect is occupation of the south. And now in Lebanon, we have 1.2 million people who have been displaced. Hundreds of thousands of those people have been displaced from the south of Lebanon. If Israel does go through with that occupation, where do those people go? And an unfortunate side effect of these strikes, which are hitting non Hezbollah affiliated areas, many of them, which, you know, are housing displaced people, is that people are increasingly nervous about the presence of displaced people. Many people, you know, there is solidarity. That's not the case for everyone. But there are groups in Lebanon who are reluctant to take in displaced people. And so, you know, what's going to happen to these 1.2 million people?

Lucy Hoff (7:47)

And all this ahead of these talks that are supposed to happen in Islamabad, led by Pakistan about this, you know, so called ceasefire. Given the escalation that we're seeing, given the clear difference in the position of the US and Israel versus that of other invested parties in this Imran being one of them. But also there's been really strong criticism of Israel's actions from European governments, the uk, France in particular today. I mean, do you think that there's a chance the cease fire can be pushed through, or do you think we just risk going back into a re escalation?

Will Christieu (8:25)

I think it really depends on Iran. If Iran really sticks to its guns and says that it will not proceed with a ceasefire without Lebanon, then maybe Trump will blink. Maybe if they don't open the Strait of Hormuz and oil doesn't start flowing again, maybe he'll capitulate. But until now, it seems like Israel is determined to make sure that whatever ceasefire happens, it doesn't happen in Lebanon. It wants this war to keep going. And yesterday's actions, the sputzkrieg, we saw the mass civilian casualties. This seems, seems it's something that definitely could disrupt this ceasefire. And to many people in Lebanon, it seems designed to create chaos in the ceasefire process.

Lucy Hoff (9:06)

And just lastly, Will, you said that Lebanon has been in a war situation for a month now. Much of this, of course, about weakening Hezbollah. But what sort of estate are Hezbollah in? There was a very senior official that has been killed in the last 24 hours. Right, but, but much like in Gaza, if the Israeli intention is to wipe out Hamas, to wipe out Hezbollah, that has proved time and time again to be unsuccessful.

Will Christieu (9:32)

Yeah, I think you said it best yourself. People talk about how we're seeing the Gaza playbook in Lebanon, right? Attacking civilian infrastructure, hitting medics, mass displacement, these sorts of things. And yesterday was another example of that. Conducting strikes in residential areas, densely populated areas, with seemingly little regard to civilian life. But what we saw in Gaza, like you said, is that even though they fought a war there for two and a half years, and even though there's an incredibly high civilian death toll and they razed the place to the ground, Hamas has not been disarmed. So trying to repeat that, you know, that doctrine, that experiment in Lebanon, a country that's many times the size of the Gaza Strip, with a group that's more powerful and more well entrenched, like Hezbollah, you know, I don't see how it ends any better than it did in Gaza.

Lucy Hoff (10:19)

And who is of course, an Iranian proxy who has been weakened but emboldened by this month and a bit long war. Well, thank you so much for your time and stay safe in Beirut.

Will Christieu (10:30)

Thank you.

Lucy Hoff (10:34)

My huge thanks again to Will Christou, a Guardian reporter based in Beirut. Do keep up with his brilliant reporting over@theguardian. Dot com. He's also been filming from Beirut for us, which you can find on Guardian social media platforms. That's it for today. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Latest, the new evening edition of Today in Focus. Today in Focus will be back with you as usual tomorrow morning. The Latest will be back tomorrow night. And in the meantime, I'd highly recommend today's episode of Science Weekly, which is all about what we've Learned from the Artemis 2 moon mission as the crew make their way back home. It's fascinating. This episode was presented by me, Lucy Hart. It was produced by Bryony Moore. The senior producer was Ryan Ramgobin. The lead producer was Zoe Hitch.

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