Host/Interviewer (3:24)

based in New York and you report

Annie Kelly (3:25)

on extremism, disinformation and tech.

Host/Interviewer (3:29)

Welcome to TODAY in Focus.

Annie Kelly (3:30)

Thanks for joining us.

Nick Robins-Early (3:31)

Thanks for having me.

Annie Kelly (3:32)

Daniel Moreno Gamma, the man who allegedly

Host/Interviewer (3:35)

attacked Sam Altman's home. Could you tell us who is Daniel

Annie Kelly (3:40)

Moreno Gamma and what do we know

Host/Interviewer (3:42)

about why he did this?

Nick Robins-Early (3:44)

Well, from what we know, he is a 20 year old who grew up in Spring, Texas, which is a suburb of Houston. And until recently, he appeared to be just a college student who was attending community college. He worked at a restaurant and he had, before this attack, been leaving quite a large digital footprint posting anti artificial intelligence sentiment. In one post, he called for luigi ing some CEOs in a reference to Luigi Mangione, the suspect who is accused of killing the United Healthcare CEO. He also went by the username Butlerian Jihadist, which is a reference to the Dune series of sci fi novels in which there's a human uprising against hyper intelligent machines. He also posted a few times on forums like Pause AI and Stop AI, these sort of activist groups who have condemned his actions and are nonviolent groups, but are dedicated towards preventing AI from being developed. And Moreno Gamma's online writings actually caught the eye of this podcast that was looking to interview people who were radically opposed to AI. And they interviewed him and they've released sections of that interview.

Interviewer (Podcast) (5:04)

All right, well, let's just. Let's just start here. I'm going to call you Discord Dan. Are you okay with that?

Daniel Moreno Gamma (5:09)

Yeah, that's great.

Nick Robins-Early (5:10)

They ask him about his posts and they ask him about whether he thinks violence is warranted against CEOs and against the AI industry. And he kind of balks at that. And he says, no, that was just online posturing. And they even ask him directly, do you think it would be good if someone were to kill Sam Altman?

Interviewer (Podcast) (5:30)

So you don't really think it would be wise for someone to, let's say, kill Sam Altman?

Daniel Moreno Gamma (5:38)

No.

Nick Robins-Early (5:39)

He hesitates for a second and then he says, no, that would be bad. It wouldn't do anything. It's just not worth it.

Daniel Moreno Gamma (5:45)

I would normally only advocate for violence as the absolute final. I don't want to say final solution, but you know, the final, you know, final. Okay, you get what I'm saying? Okay.

Host/Interviewer (6:00)

What have we heard from either Moreno Gamma or his family since this incident?

Nick Robins-Early (6:06)

Moreno Gamma himself hasn't said anything. His parents have issued a statement. They believe he had been suffering some mental health issues. He had no criminal record prior to this. They described him as a caring, loving person who would not want to do this while he was in his right mind.

Annie Kelly (6:26)

And tell us what's he been charged

Host/Interviewer (6:27)

with and what have the federal authorities said so far about this incident?

Nick Robins-Early (6:30)

He is being charged with a range of crimes from state and federal authorities, including attempted arson and attempted murder. It seems like a mix of things. There's what the authorities say that has happened, which is that he has driven from Texas to plan this attack and he's walking up with a very deliberate purpose to burn down Altman's house and burn down OpenAI. Federal authorities have been quite harsh on this. They have said that if it's proven that he intended to carry out this for political reasons, they would treat it as domestic terrorism. They're going to pursue this with the full extent of the law. He's currently set for an arraignment hearing on 5 May. What will happen there is that there will be formally charges introduced and then things will progress from there and we'll see what kind of defense his attorney launches. So far they have said that he was suffering a mental health crisis. He did not intend to create harm.

Public Defender (7:32)

What's becoming clear is that Daniel's actions appear to have been driven by an acute mental health crisis and that these

Nick Robins-Early (7:44)

charges are quite extreme for what the public defender argues should be more classified as a property crime or as something below attempted murder.

Public Defender (7:53)

This case is clearly overcharged. This case is a property crime at best.

Host/Interviewer (8:02)

It was interesting seeing that the FBI and its presser on this said the FBI will not tolerate threats against our nation's innovation leaders, which I thought was a really interesting phrase as well.

Daniel Moreno Gamma (8:12)

The FBI is committed to protecting our nation's innovation leaders and the companies that drive our economy forward.

Annie Kelly (8:21)

What about Sam Altman himself?

Host/Interviewer (8:22)

What's he said since this attack on his home?

Nick Robins-Early (8:25)

So he posted a fairly lengthy blog after this incident. The initial thing that he posted in that was a photo of his family.

Sam Altman (8:33)

Late Friday, Sam Altman posted this image of his family saying, I'm sharing a photo in the hopes that it might dissuade the next person from throwing a Molotov cocktail at our house.

Nick Robins-Early (8:44)

He included a lot of other defenses of AI. He also referenced this New Yorker magazine profile which came out recently that was a fairly unflattering portrait of him.

Annie Kelly (9:01)

John Fleming, you're a researcher at the University of Nottingham and you specialize in anti technology politics. Were you surprised when you saw this attack?

Sean Fleming (9:11)

I wasn't surprised at all because I've been predicting that the backlash against technology would become increasingly violent for a few years now.

Daniel Moreno Gamma (9:19)

Right.

Annie Kelly (9:20)

And we should say that Moreno Gamma's family say that this has nothing to do about his views on AI and that he was suffering from a really severe mental health crisis at the time. But what do we know about his

Host/Interviewer (9:32)

beliefs in general from his substack posts,

Sean Fleming (9:34)

we can see that Daniel Marino Gamma was influenced by Eliezer Yudkowski.

Daniel Moreno Gamma (9:40)

I can't exactly remember the first video I came across, but probably it was Yudkowski.

Sean Fleming (9:46)

I imagine he's probably the most famous AI doomer right now. He wrote a book last year, a bestseller in fact, titled if anyone builds It, Everyone dies.

Eliezer Yudkowsky (quoted) (9:57)

I am worried about the AI that is smarter than us. I'm worried about the AI that is good enough at AI research to build the AI that builds the AI that is smarter than us and kills everyone.

Sean Fleming (10:08)

The central argument of these AI doomers is that even a small misalignment between the goals of a super intelligent AI and the goals of humanity could be catastrophic. Even an artificial intelligence with a relatively benign goal. The classic example is an AI that's programmed to maximize the production of paperclips. Well, if it's intelligent enough, it will prevent anyone from thwarting that goal, and it will eventually turn the entire world into paperclips. If we tried to turn the machine off or to modify could manipulate us or even kill us to prevent us from doing that.

Eliezer Yudkowsky (quoted) (10:52)

The AI doesn't hate you, neither does it love you. And you're made of atoms that it can use for something else. That's all there is to it. In the end.

Sean Fleming (10:58)

This is a sort of facetious example, but it gives you an idea of how they're thinking.

Host/Interviewer (11:04)

And these AI movements that have grown up in response to that fear, can

Annie Kelly (11:08)

you tell us a bit about them?

Sean Fleming (11:10)

So they grew out of an online subculture commonly known as rationalism, and it revolves around some seemingly innocuous themes like eliminating cognitive biases. So these are not romantic opponents of the technological age who long for a primitive society or who wish to go back to an agricultural society or something like that. These are people who are steeped in the discourse of science and technology and who oppose AI as sort of insiders. The vast majority of AI doomers are simply calling for strict regulation of AI, but it's worth noting that some of them have advocated for pretty drastic means. So Eliezer Yudkowsky, in an article in Time a few years ago, argued that rogue data centers should be bombed, that airstrikes should be used to enforce a total ban on the development of AI. And he even suggested that countries should be willing to risk nuclear war rather than let this go any further.

Host/Interviewer (12:20)

Right. But you know, there's a difference between

Annie Kelly (12:23)

attacking AI infrastructure and the actual people who are at the head of these companies.

Host/Interviewer (12:30)

And as I understand it, the point that that article was making was that countries should be, you know, willing to bomb data centers in some rogue state who was violating international bans on, you

Annie Kelly (12:43)

know, dangerous AI development. But Sean, you study anti technology politics and violent extremism. So when it comes to individuals taking really extreme action, what are some of the drivers?

Host/Interviewer (12:59)

You know, you've just talked about this grand scale. You know, the people worried about the possible end of the world because of paperclips, but what about the smaller, more immediate things?

Annie Kelly (13:10)

You know, are people just worried about how this might affect their daily lives,

Host/Interviewer (13:14)

you know, their jobs?

Sean Fleming (13:16)

The grievances produced by economic obsolescence might result in sabotage against tech companies, a bit of vandalism or machine smashing. But I don't think economic obsolescence is going to drive a new wave of terrorism. It's concern about the existential risks on the part of extremely alienated people who travel in very strange echo chambers online. I think that's where the real threat of political violence comes from. And these ideologies that we've been talking about that are rationalist and scientific appeal to people with both the know how and the security clearance. My big worry is that rogue insiders are going to be the ones who turn against the system and do a lot of damage.

Host/Interviewer (14:06)

There have been quite swift moves by the industry and politicians already to blame the AI doomers, or at least kind of point some finger of responsibility at them for things like this attack on Sam Altman's property. Do you think that they do bear some responsibility for that?

Sean Fleming (14:24)

I think the most extreme of them certainly do bear some responsibility. But I don't think that it's fair to blame the pause AI and stop AI movements as a whole. And it bears repeating that most critics of artificial intelligence are not proposing anything particularly drastic. They're proposing regulation, oversight, legal means of addressing these problems. So the vast majority of people who travel in these message boards are not contemplating assassinations of corporate executives, and they're banning people who even mention such things. So I think we should be careful not to tar them all with the same brush. The anti AI community is large, and only a small segment of it condones violence. But even that small segment is sizable. Experts in political violence have already raised the alarm about what they call stochastic terrorism. Individuals with different causes who carry out targeted assassinations in an attempt to be heroes. I don't think this is the last attempt on the life of an AI executive we'll see in this decade,

Host/Interviewer (15:42)

Nick.

Annie Kelly (15:43)

So so far we've been talking about this one act of violence that was perpetrated against Sam Altman last weekend. And you know, it's worth saying that there have been a few other incidents as well. Open AI staff were forced into lockdown after threats in November 2025. And in April this year, an Indiana politician reported someone shooting at his front door who then left behind a sign saying no data centers on his doorstep

Ron Gibson (16:11)

that handwritten note tucked under a doormat covered in broken glass where City County Councilman Ron Gibson says he and his son awoke to gunfire.

Annie Kelly (16:19)

And as this technology has been advancing, we have started to see this wider non violent anti AI movements spring up in response. What do these groups look like at the moment?

Nick Robins-Early (16:33)

Well, I think there's different sections of it. There's groups that are more involved in calling for regulation and policies to rein in, though not entirely stop the advancement of AI. And then there are more extreme groups and extreme individuals who have viewed this as an existential threat and are saying that this should be stopped by any means necessary. It's a technology that is extremely divisive. It has widespread disapproval within the United States and a lot of people just really do not trust these companies or these individuals who are running it. There was an NBC poll last month where I believe maybe only 26% of people in the United States had a positive opinion of AI.

Annie Kelly (17:22)

Ouch.

Nick Robins-Early (17:23)

In the list of major figures or entities, AI ranks below Donald Trump, it ranks below the Republican Party, it actually ranks a couple points above the Democrats. But pretty much anything else you can think of, it's less popular than. It's not a technology that people view as having positive outcomes. And that's not just on the workforce. People view it as something that will make people less able to connect with friends and society. They view it as something that will make people less creative. There aren't a lot of people outside of the industry and outside of specifically male researchers. Studies have shown that think that this is going to have net positive effects on society.

Host/Interviewer (18:12)

And it was interesting looking at these polls. This anti AI sentiment is especially prevalent among young people. The kind of people that you would think maybe would be keen to adopt new technologies. Gen Z they really don't like AI, do they? Do you think this is something that companies need to be worried about?

Nick Robins-Early (18:30)

Any technology would love to have a younger user base because it's a user base that you can count on for a much longer period of time. The perception that the user base of these is a ton of teenagers generating everything is not really the case. Certainly there's a lot of people Using it for school, for writing essays, for all these things. But I think with a little bit more digital literacy, maybe younger generations are a little bit more skeptical of this technology in the first place. So it's been interesting to seeing in polling that the people most enamored with it are actually older generations, while younger people are maybe worrying about what it's going to do to their future or worrying about just the impacts that it's having on their society as they see it right now.

Host/Interviewer (19:17)

Do you think that all of these very kind of catastrophic views that they're expounding about the future of their own technology is contributing to this?

Nick Robins-Early (19:26)

Yeah, I mean, I think that that's definitely part of it. I think that when you have a sales pitch that is in some parts our technology could destroy the world if it's not being reined in. Our technology is going to erase all these jobs and transform the lab.

Interviewer (Podcast) (19:40)

I think AI will probably like most likely sort of lead to the end of the world, but in the meantime, there will be great companies created with serious machine learning.

Nick Robins-Early (19:49)

It's not an appealing sales pitch for a lot of people and I think that these companies are beginning to realize this. And there has been this sort of tonal shift among the industry recently. They've been putting out policy papers saying, actually what if we were to have a redistribution of the wealth that AI creates back to citizens and what if there was a four day work week that the average worker could have as a result of AI? And I don't think it's a coincidence that these sort of talking points are coming as there's increasing calls for regulation. I think the industry is kind of realizing that they need to shift tack on what their messaging is because of the same issues that we talked about.

Host/Interviewer (20:30)

But where did this messaging come from? Who is it directed towards? Because it kind of feels like the cat's out the bag a little bit. I mean, people have taken that narrative up and are believing it, right? Are believing that their jobs are going to be gone within four or five years. And why was it that this was their kind of pitch?

Nick Robins-Early (20:49)

Broadcasting your technology as this world changing or world ending thing is valuable from a marketing perspective. When you have a technology that's still emerging and needs people to buy in and needs people to take it seriously, It's a lot easier to raise billions of dollars when you say that your technology can completely upend the world than it is saying, oh well, this is pretty good at writing emails. It's useful to a point. But then after that, when there's been this widespread adoption. You kind of have to switch marketing strategy because all of a sudden the things that you've been saying are not really as appealing for the average person who's using this.

Host/Interviewer (21:28)

And this discontent is obviously filtering through the much wider population. How is that unhappiness playing out in local communities who might be worried about their electricity bills and data centers being built? Can you tell us a bit about what we're seeing happen, how that's manifesting?

Nick Robins-Early (21:46)

Yeah, I think that there's a number of different grassroots movements sort of building around this. There's people advocating their lawmakers for more stringent policies around AI. There is certain candidates right now who are eyeing midterm elections, who are running on platforms that heavily focus on saying, look, we're going to pass these bills that rein in AI or offer protections. And at a community level, we've seen data centers try to go up in places around the country and face quite a bit of opposition. Locally, there's people who are saying, we don't really want this in our community. We're worried about what this might do to our electricity bill. We're worried about this technology in general. And with data centers, they create a lot of jobs initially in terms of construction, but they don't really take that many people to run. So they're not really big boons to the community in terms of job creation. You can run a massive, massive data center with a few dozen people

Annie Kelly (22:49)

coming up. Can the AI industry contain the backlash?

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Annie Kelly (24:47)

How do you think the AI industry

Host/Interviewer (24:50)

will react to not only this growing discontent, but the potential for, on the very radical end of that, more violence against them or their companies?

Nick Robins-Early (25:03)

I think that we're going to see a lot more public relations efforts from AI companies and a lot more attempts to humanize both their leaders and the companies themselves. And then, on the other hand, we're just going to see a lot more security go up. And this is something that's been happening with executives and different business leaders for a little while now, certainly since the United Healthcare shooting. But there's a paranoia around who might be out to get them. There's, I think, a growing fear around what could happen. When you see extremist acts that target specific business leaders or politicians, I think the people who are within that class begin to look around and think, okay, well, if this happened to them, it could happen to me.

Host/Interviewer (25:54)

Do you think AI companies will see an opportunity in blaming these kind of grassroots movements for people's unhappiness with their technology as a way of shutting them down?

Nick Robins-Early (26:03)

I think that there's always a risk in any kind of political movement where when there's either politicians or companies or special interests that don't want to face some sort of more activist section of the public, that they would potentially demonize those sections of the public. It's possible that I think the AI industry could say these are more extreme factions who are calling for this and they should not be paid attention to

Host/Interviewer (26:34)

or shut down in terms of criminalizing them, which is obviously not the first time that that's happened in terms of trying to do that to protest groups.

Nick Robins-Early (26:44)

I think that the AI industry is kind of walking this thin line right now where they want to be seen as benevolent still. And I think any sort of more draconian actions could be viewed as potentially risky and cause more backlash than they would intend. But that hasn't stopped AI companies from really heavily lobbying for more lax political action towards them in some cases. In California, OpenAI subpoenaed a number of groups who it believed were potentially working against it somehow and in league with Elon Musk. And they subpoenaed these nonprofits saying, we want your communications, and we believe that you've been, as part of an influence campaign, taking action against us. So that kind of speaks to, I think, the level of lengths they are willing to go on this even if they might not be saying, look, we need to criminalize these groups. They're certainly trying to undercut them.

Host/Interviewer (27:43)

And finally, there has been suggestions that this incident at Sam Altman's home might lead to other kind of copycat anti AI violence in the coming months or years. Where do you see all of this heading?

Nick Robins-Early (27:59)

Whenever you look at radicalism or extremist attacks, if that is what this ends up being, I think that there's always the risk of copycats and I think it's notable that in Moreno Gamma's post he referenced Luigi Mangione. And so there's already a sort of knock on inspiration that happens whenever there is these types of violence or attempted violence. Certainly with regards to his purported manifesto, you don't really write a manifesto unless you want to inspire others. There is certainly an attempt to encourage this. When you have something that is as divisive as AI and is as prevalent and when you have a level of online radicalization that is just permeating society writ large these days, it's going to look for targets. And I think the AI industry, yeah, could very well be one of those targets in the future.

Host/Interviewer (28:58)

Nick, thank you so much for joining us today.

Nick Robins-Early (29:01)

Thanks for having me.

Annie Kelly (29:05)

And that's it for today. My thanks to Nick Robin Zerley and Sean Fleming and you can read all of nick's reporting@theguardian.com this episode was produced by Ned Carter Miles and presented by me, Annie Kelly. The sound producer was Ross Burns and the executive producer was Sammy Kent. And we will be back later on today with the latest. This is the Guardian.

Barclays Flipside Podcast Narrator (29:45)

From globalization to innovation sustainability to market volatility, there's always more than one side to a story. Explore different perspectives on today's most important business and economic issues with the Flipside Podcast from Barclays Investment Bank. Hear two research analysts in a lively debate and get insights from every angle. To further inform your view, listen to the flip side on your favorite platform.

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