The System Wants You Addicted & Distracted: Here's How to Break Free & Take Back Your Power | Rich Roll (Fan Fav)

Summary

---

Impact Theory with Tom Bilyeu

Episode: The System Wants You Addicted & Distracted – Here’s How to Break Free & Take Back Your Power

Guest: Rich Roll

Release Date: March 1, 2025

---

Overview

In this fan-favorite episode, host Tom Bilyeu sits down with ultra-endurance athlete, bestselling author, and podcaster Rich Roll. The discussion explores the modern landscape of addiction—not merely substances but compulsive behaviors in daily life, from technology to food. Rich draws from personal experience with addiction and sobriety, discussing the spiritual, psychological, and systemic dynamics at play, as well as practical strategies for regaining agency. The second half dives into plant-based nutrition, debunking common myths and highlighting the challenges and rewards of dietary transformation.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Expanding the Definition of Addiction

• Addiction Isn’t “Them,” It’s Us:
  • Rich opens by dismantling the stereotype of addiction as solely drug or alcohol abuse.

    “...On some level, we're all prey to some form of addictive, compulsive behavior patterns that are interfering with us aligning our values with our actions.”
    — Rich Roll [01:00]

• Modern Manifestations:
  • Technology, food, and other compulsions are widespread.
  • Society is structured to keep us distracted and hooked.

2. Spiritual Life and Non-Dualism

• Non-Dual Spirituality:
  • Rich explains his non-dogmatic, all-encompassing sense of spirituality.

    “For me, there's nothing that isn't spiritual... I don't look at life in a binary dualistic way...”
    — Rich Roll [02:08]

• Faith in the Unknown:
  • Awe and wonder at the world’s mystery serve as a foundation for growth and decision-making.
• Guidance and Intuition:
  • Tom explores where intuition, self-trust, and faith intersect with action and decision-making.
  • Surrender is reframed as presence and openness, not passivity.

    “...There really are so few things that we can control in our lives... All you can control is the thoughts that you entertain and how you respond to the world around you.”
    — Rich Roll [13:11]

3. Control, Surrender, and Progress

• The Struggle to Let Go:
  • Tom admits that fighting against uncertainty is his basic instinct (“grabbing the sword”).
  • Rich challenges him to consider the power of letting go without expectation.
  • Both discuss times when problems solved themselves through patience rather than compulsion.
• Effectiveness vs. Letting Go:
  • Sometimes doing “nothing” is pragmatic, not just spiritual or philosophical.
  • The dance of structure and creativity, especially in leadership and working with artists.

4. Hubris vs. Humility

• The Double-Edged Sword of Hubris:
  • Hubris drives exploration and progress—space, science, art—but unchecked, blinds us to our limitations.

    “Pride and confidence in the capabilities of the human brain has been the engine of progress... But I think where we run into trouble is when we don't appreciate that there are things that are beyond our capabilities.”
    — Rich Roll [27:35]

• Self-Awareness:
  • “The physics of progress”: Iterate, sample, confront inadequacies, and keep moving forward.

    “If you can stare nakedly at your inadequacies, realize that you can get better... then you can get in this... loop of what I call the physics of progress.”
    — Tom Bilyeu [29:50]

5. Identity, Self-Esteem, and Failure

• The “Sample” Reframe:
  • Tom suggests relabeling failure as “sample,” akin to machine learning—data to refine future efforts.

    “If we started thinking of it like that, ‘I tried something. I have a sample piece of data now’...”
    — Tom Bilyeu [37:10]

• The Work of Self-Understanding:
  • Rich explains the role of deep internal work and emotional honesty in overcoming negative patterns and self-sabotage.
• Self-Esteem – Internal vs. External:
  • Insights from Maslow and psychologist Scott Barry Kaufman: True self-esteem must be internally driven.

6. Sobriety, Relapse, and Radical Honesty

• Sobriety and Humility:
  • Rich shares his 2011 relapse after ten years, the role of overzealous focus on achievement, and the necessity of surrender in recovery.

    “That relapse was a reminder like hey, you're not cured and you need to sort your shit out and remember what's most important.”
    — Rich Roll [50:29]

• The Power of Integrity:
  • He explains why honesty is non-negotiable for sustainable recovery, even at the cost of ego.

    “I would like to tell you that I have 24 years of sobriety. That’s technically not true... that’s some humble pie shit.”
    — Rich Roll [54:52]

7. Helping Others with Addiction or Compulsion

• You Can’t Force Change:
  • The only thing you can offer is presence, boundaries, and compassion.
  • Pain is ultimately what motivates personal transformation.

    “You cannot compel somebody to change who doesn't want to change. That is a futile effort.”
    — Rich Roll [60:02]

• Addiction on a Spectrum:
  • Rich notes that addiction must be seen as a universal, not an "other," issue—everyone struggles.

8. Nutritional Freedom: The Plant-Based Journey

• Motivation and Flexibility:
  • Rich has been plant-based for 15 years, emphasizing experimentation over dogmatism.
  • Both discuss myths, failed attempts, and the importance of learning (“sampling”) to find what works.
• Whole Foods Over Processed:
  • Processed “plant-based” foods often undermine health. Emphasis should be on whole, minimally processed ingredients.
• Protein, Satiety, and Mistakes:
  • Key mistakes: Not enough calories and reliance on processed analogues; need to center meals on satiating, whole food carbs (quinoa, potatoes, legumes).
• Practical Tips:
  • Blending greens into smoothies, using plant-based proteins, and the utility of “transition foods.”
• Longevity Science:
  • Tom asks about research from Blue Zones, David Sinclair, and Valter Longo—plant-based diets’ links with longevity.
• Fruit and Glycemic Response:
  • Rich argues fear of fruit is misplaced, highlighting fiber and context in blood sugar management.

9. Lasting Fulfillment and Serving Others

• Tom’s Fulfillment Formula:

  “The only things that really matter are... to joyfully pursue the difficult acquisition of skills that matter to me, that allow me to serve people, to serve myself and other people.”
  — Tom Bilyeu [44:01]

• Safety as a Foundation for Risk & Joy:
  • Stable relationships empower courage and innovation.

10. Notable Plant-Based Athlete Stories

• Extreme Longevity and Performance:
  • Rich shares examples like Mike Fremont (100-year-old marathoner) and bodybuilder Nimai Delgado.

    “He's been plant based forever. And he goes out and runs marathons and ultra marathons. And he set like world records.”
    — Rich Roll [94:07]

---

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Redefining Religion and Spirituality:

  “I like to live in that space of awe and wonder and... many of the big decisions that I’ve made... were predicated on a certain kind of non definable faith in possibility.”
  — Rich Roll [02:50]

• Tom on Money and Fulfillment:

  “Wealth has brought me zero percent joy. Like, there’s nothing about being wealthy that’s joyful. The things that it allows me to build are joyful, but those are aimed at meaning and purpose...”
  — Tom Bilyeu [16:50]

• The Road Gets Narrower:

  “The longer that I’m sober and the more work I do on myself, the more intolerant I become for behaviors that are not in alignment with the person I would like to be.”
  — Rich Roll [55:39]

• On Living in Alignment:

  “It is that idea of being in a place where your behaviors and your actions are thoroughly aligned with your values... and it’s inextricably tied to this sense that on some level you’re contributing to the betterment of humanity in your own unique way.”
  — Rich Roll [45:45]

---

Timestamps for Critical Segments

• [01:00] Addiction is universal: the new paradigm
• [02:08] Non-dual spirituality and living with awe
• [13:11] The limits of control and the power of surrender
• [27:35] Hubris’ positive and negative roles
• [37:10] “Sample” as a replacement word for “failure”
• [54:52] Radical honesty in recovery and humility
• [60:02] Helping loved ones—boundaries and compassion
• [68:06] The plant-based journey and performance
• [74:44] Plant-based nutrition—practical tips and rookie mistakes
• [86:38] The fruit debate and glycemic science
• [94:07] Examples of extraordinary plant-based longevity

---

Memorable Moments

• The “sample, not failure” cognitive hack from AI to human learning.
• Tom and Rich’s vulnerable confessions around inadequacy, fulfillment, and the quest for alignment.
• Candid details on the temptations of regression (“addict voice”) and why telling the truth is part of survival.
• Rich’s pride in his wife’s vegan cheese company Shrimu—an accidental, humorous "ad" born of organic enthusiasm.

---

Where to Connect

• Rich Roll:
  • Website/Podcast: RichRoll.com
  • Instagram & Social: @RichRoll
• Shrimu (vegan cheese): srimu.com

---

Conclusion

This wide-ranging conversation weaves together the societal, personal, and biological challenges of addiction, the journey to self-actualization, and the practical steps of plant-based living. Through hard-won wisdom and lively debate, Tom and Rich illustrate how the systems that want us addicted and distracted can be resisted—and how meaning, integrity, and growth can be recentered in our lives. Whether you’re struggling with compulsion or seeking to optimize your body for longevity, the episode is packed with actionable insight and inspiration.

---

Transcript

[Grainger Narrator]

When you manage procurement for multiple facilities, every order matters. But when it's for a hospital system, they matter even more. Grainger gets it and knows there's no time for managing multiple suppliers and no room for shipping delays. That's why Grainger offers millions of products in fast, dependable delivery so you can keep your facility stocked, safe and running smoothly. Call 1-800-GRAINGER Click grainger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done. When you manage procurement for multiple facilities, every order matters. But when it's for a hospital system, they matter even more. Grainger gets it and knows there's no time for managing multiple suppliers and no room for shipping delays. That's why Grainger offers millions of products in fast, dependable delivery so you can keep your facility stocked, safe and running smoothly. Call 1-800-GRAINGER click granger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.

[Rich Roll]

The more we learn about addiction, the more we realize that it isn't just about the drunk in the gutter or the guy who can't pull the needle out of his arm. That on some level we're all prey to some form of addictive, compulsive behavior patterns that are interfering with with us aligning our values with our actions.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Rich Roll, welcome back to the show.

[Rich Roll]

So happy to be here, man. Thanks for having me today, dude. For sure.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So it's always tough to interview somebody like you, where I literally just made a list of all the things we could cover and it is a very broad swath. So for the thumbnail, it's tough. I don't know where this will end up going, but I want to start with spirituality. I heard you make a statement sort of as an offhanded comment to answer somebody else's thing. And I was like, whoa, I really want to know more about that. You said that your spiritual life is the most important thing and one I would love if you could just define. What do you mean by spirituality and why is it so important?

[Rich Roll]

Wow. Coming out of the gate hot with a rod. Yeah. How to articulate that? I mean, the first thing I would say is that for me, there's nothing that isn't spiritual. Like, I don't look at life in a binary dualistic way in the sense that there is the non spiritual life and then my spiritual life.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Now when you say non dualistic, though, are you taking a very. Like, there is the mind. So traditional dualism. For those that haven't heard that phrase, you've got the brain and then you've got the sort of spiritual being and the two are not the same. That would be sort of classical dualism, Correct? That what you mean?

[Rich Roll]

Correct. So for me it is non dualistic. It's all one thing. That's how I think about it. And I don't think about spirituality in any kind of specific dogmatic sense. I suppose I would define it as an awe and wonder that anything is possible and that there is much that we don't understand. I think we're hubristic as human animals to believe that we are capable of understanding everything. And we've come quite far in terms of trying to understand space and the brain and what's at the bottom of the ocean and how our bodies work. But I think we've really only tapped the surface of that. And I like to live in that space of awe and wonder and my life. And many of the big decisions that I've made, I think were predicated on a certain kind of non definable faith in possibility. And the biggest leaps that I've made in terms of personal growth and in terms of my career. The beautiful things that I've been able to accomplish, I think are part and parcel attributable to having a interior spiritual life.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Okay, so there's a lot there. So I'm really intrigued about the hubris. But I want to come back to that for a second because I'm not sure hubris. Hubris can manifest negatively, but also it's the thing that makes us explore space and the bottom of the ocean and all of that. But before we go down that path. So I give me more about. As you explore spirituality, is it sitting in the. The wonder? Is it. Is it communing? And communing might be the wrong word. Is it communicating and connecting with a higher power that you personify? Like, what does that mean exactly?

[Rich Roll]

It's definitely connecting with a higher power, but not in any kind of personified way. It doesn't hold any kind of specific characteristic other than that there are forces that exist beyond our limited senses. That I dig that play. And I dig it. Yeah, I dig it. Is it completely true? Can I prove that? No, I can't. You know, but I know that in times of pain and struggle and confusion in my life, when I have arrived at a place, having done a lot of interior work and am in a position where I feel like I can trust my instincts, taking leaps of faith and trusting in some kind of belief outside of myself that I will be guided has served me well.

[Tom Bilyeu]

That's Interesting. Okay, so do you believe that to be literally true in that something is actually guiding all of us or at least you?

[Rich Roll]

I think that there is a. There is a guiding force that is available to all of us when we are committed to the path of self actualization and self understanding, that we can then intuit and tap into perceptive abilities that can serve as a reliable compass for our decision making.

[Tom Bilyeu]

All right, this is some heavy shit here, rich roll.

[Rich Roll]

But it's all very ephemeral. It's not something I can say. This is how it works. It's just something that has shown up in my life time and time again

[Tom Bilyeu]

and I've seen it as intuition.

[Rich Roll]

As intuition, I would say when we spoke last time, we talked about my story and I've had highs and lows just like everybody has and have been in positions where I felt hopeless or financially destitute. And those were moments that really tested not just my own capabilities and capacity, but tested that faith and trusting in that and believing in myself. And this kind of purpose driven instinct that I had led me to make decisions that didn't make any sense logically or rationally, and yet over time have proven to be correct.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Okay, so quickly define correct.

[Rich Roll]

I mean, right now I live a life beyond my wildest imagination. I feel very privileged to be able to do this thing that I do that's similar to what you do. Provide for my family doing it, be remunerated handsomely for doing it. And it's enriched my life in so many ways and given me purpose and fulfillment and a sense of direction that feels very meaningful, not just to me personally, but to a lot of other people. I'm sure you get messages every single day from the people that enjoy your show and have found meaning in it and direction. And that's a really great feeling. And that's something I never thought that I would have. And when I set out on this sort of quest, there was no logical indication that I would ever get there. It didn't make any sense. This couldn't be a vocation. Everybody who was in my circle who kind of of operates more rationally was saying to me, you need to go back to the law firm or you need to make these more prudent choices because you're being irresponsible. But I felt guided in an intangible way and convicted that I was doing the right thing, even though it was confusing. And there were plenty of times when I wanted to jump ship and do the prudent, rational thing because that's how I was raised and that's what my education was all about. But having kind of come out the other side of it, I have a deeper appreciation for, How do I say this? The beauty in not always knowing and then back to again, this sense of awe and wonder in what we don't truly understand.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Okay, so now I want to tease those out. So I often in my life feel like I'm stepping into the void and that because I'm in the void, I can't tell if I'm falling, if I'm flying, if I'm floating. I actually don't know. And it's part of the reason that hubris to me is not always negative is the thing that keeps me from panicking because I don't know if I'm falling, floating or flying is that I can figure it out. And I don't feel that I'm being guided in any way, shape or form. I don't feel that there's anything that has my back. There's clearly something I don't understand. You need only ask yourself, I don't believe in God, but let's say that God existed. What existed before God, Right? And so you end up. My brain at least breaks at a moment where I cannot conceive of something from nothing. And I also can't conceive of perpetual something, so I can't wrap my head around it.

[Rich Roll]

So what I would say to that is what I hear. And what you just said is a desire or a need, a deep seated need to believe that you can control outcomes in your life. And what would it feel like for you to let go and just surrender?

[Tom Bilyeu]

It does.

[Rich Roll]

And have you had, have you had the experience in your life where you have been up against the wall and you threw up your hands and said, I don't know, I'm letting go of this, I'm just going to be in a state of presence and allowing and then had that situation work out optimally without you having to force it or compel it with your self will

[Tom Bilyeu]

be thoughtful in how I answer that. So I think that being open to whatever is going to transpire, opportunity, connection, all of that stuff is a very wise thing to do. So from that standpoint, that is a tool in my tool belt. But when I think about, I don't think about it as surrendering to something else that will then present something to me and to because that to me,

[Rich Roll]

but to surrender without expectation or attachment, not conditionally saying I'm surrendering because I trust this other thing is going to take care of this. But what does it feel like, or what would it feel like for you to completely release the, the, the chains?

[Tom Bilyeu]

To what outcome?

[Rich Roll]

To any outcome.

[Tom Bilyeu]

No, that doesn't make sense.

[Rich Roll]

Possibly even a, a bigger, more beautiful outcome. Let me explain.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I'm always open to a bigger, more

[Rich Roll]

explain through a beautiful experience. So I came into this understanding through, through recovery from alcoholism. And I'm somebody who grew up in a very rationalist household with, you know, academically minded parents, and I was blessed with the best education that anybody could, could buy and studied science and the humanities and all of that. And, and my mind operated in a very pragmatic way. And then alcoholism really took me down some very dark paths as we talked about last time. And when I finally reached my nadir with all of that and realized that I couldn't continue to live that way, I had to let go of all of the ideas I had about how to solve this problem, because that wasn't working, allow other people to help me. And when I entered this 12 step community, it was impressed upon me that I needed to surrender and let go, which to me felt like giving up. That's not in my DNA. I don't give up. I can use my brain to solve this problem. But all indications were that my brain was actually making it worse. And the real solution required me to let go of those ideas and allow other people to help me and to surrender to the possibility that my, you know, this idea that my best thinking had landed me in this desperate place and that the solution lie in, in. In surrendering to a sense of powerlessness, which again, was very difficult for me to crock and took me a long time to understand. But ultimately what it means is that, or what it led me to more fully appreciate is that there really are so few things that we can control in our lives. And I think as human beings, we want to control our environments out of fear of death or whatever it is. But when you really think about it, all you can control is the thoughts that you entertain and how you respond to the world around you. It's very. What you put in your mouth, for example. But beyond that, you can't control other human beings, how they react to you, what's happening in the world around you. And I think that causes a lot of pain and suffering and consternation for people. And letting go of all of that and really focusing on the very few things that you can control, you can find a certain level of peace. And I think with that, you create fertile ground to grow a healthy Dose of humility. And you being a guy who's sort of a master of the universe and is trying to solve problems with his mind and has created this incredibly beautiful life of largesse doing that, it's probably a harder pill to swallow. So I'm interested in, like, how that lands for you.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I think we feel very similarly because I do not consider myself a master of the universe. All I do is fail, Rich. Literally, it is almost ridiculous how, you know, there's that Michael Jordan commercial. I've missed this many shots, lost this many games, and that's why I'm successful. So, I mean, I am not. If people look at me and see somebody who's like, gripping on tightly to something, that would be a mistake. So my. The mantra that I repeat in my head is that life is full of beauty, life is full of suffering. You cannot control what happens to you. You can only control how you react. But then there's the next part of it to me, which is the image of grabbing a sword.

[Rich Roll]

And.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And so that's my reaction is to fight. And the fight is so clearly that I don't know the answers. And so what I try to do is surround myself with people that won't yes man me that will tell me when they think that I'm wrong. Because I'm wrong so often. And it doesn't feel like surrender. But if surrendering is the sense of, I'm not going to be able to solve this by myself. I need help. And by the way, if I don't solve it, what does that really matter? Like, I'm my North Star is exactly joy and fulfillment. That's it. It isn't wealth. I am all too clear on the fact that wealth has brought me zero percent joy. Like, there's nothing about being wealthy that's joyful. The things that it allows me to build are joyful, but those are aimed at meaning and purpose, right? So I have a. A math equation. And I get like, even hearing myself explain it. I understand how it comes across to people. I've got a math equation. I'm grabbing the sword, I'm fighting like. But that stuff gives me the chills. Like, it. It feels so awesome. And because I am well aware, the only thing that ultimately matters is how I feel about myself when I'm by myself. And have I been loving? Have I been kind? Have I been open? Have I been willing to admit that I'm not smart enough to do this by myself? And I have come to those conclusions because those conclusions are so useful to getting to joy and fulfillment, but it doesn't feel like letting go.

[Rich Roll]

I'm sure you've had the experience, however, where you're trying to solve a problem and perhaps your math equation is failing you. And people are saying do this and other people are saying do that and you've said, well, I'm going to not do anything for a moment. I'm going to take a beat and I'm just going to sit with this. And a day later, a week later, or a month later, the proper solution comes to you. Or by dint of doing nothing, it solves itself. Or you end up in a place better off than you could have predicted had you sort of forced your self will upon that solution in that moment. That is so that's an example of kind of what I'm talking about.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah. So meditation for me is a daily practice where I'm trying to get calm and creative for that reason. And the sense of intuition, that is definitely something that I can identify with for sure and my goal in meditation. So I do two things. I do meditation where I'm just trying to get calm and creative by breathing from my diaphragm and returning to the breath so that my thoughts stop looping in a death spiral around negative shit or problem solving or whatever. And then when you're there, you find that, oh, for me, it's like an image will appear in my head. And once I have that space where I'm calm and creative, I try to preload the image of what problem I'm trying to solve so I can feel myself get into that calm, creative space because I've preloaded this. Was it Mark Twain that said, no, Thomas Edison, never go to bed without making an ask of your subconscious. Thing is the thing so I will know ahead of time of like this is the big problem I'm trying to solve. And so it's a question of, okay, well, is that Tom grasping because he pre plans and he knows what problem he's trying to solve and he's, you know, so into being a master of the universe that he's making this ask of his subconscious or is that me letting go because I understand I can't force it and that all I can do is make the ask of whatever that ephemeral thing is, and then I have to create the space of silence, of equanimity of peace in order to

[Rich Roll]

hear that little whisper?

[Tom Bilyeu]

I don't know.

[Rich Roll]

Right, but still, that's fundamentally premised on this idea that at some point the appropriate response will come to you through that process. But what about the situations where in that. In that period of repose and reflection, other people out in the world are, like, moving. There's moving pieces out there, and those pieces move in such a way that solve the problem for you without you having done anything. And suddenly you're like, oh, wow, now everything is way better. And I did nothing.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I. That is for sure a real thing. That's something that my wife and I get in fights about routinely because her perspective is what. She will want me to do something about it. Like, this is a problem. Go solve that problem. And my thing is, I've just had to tell her, when you have some big thing like that, you've got to give me three weeks. Because oftentimes something will present itself. It will solve itself. It will Something that I'm trying to, like, make happen. Suddenly, like, something just delivers. Like, I'm really hungry and, you know, pizza falls off a truck. It's like, that's a terrible example, but you get the idea.

[Rich Roll]

No, I understand what you're saying. It's. I'm probably more like your wife. Like, there's a discomfort with that dissonance. Like, this has to be fixed because I don't feel comfortable in my own skin until this problem is resolved. And my wife, in our case of our marriage, she'll be the one to say, don't do anything. Like, you don't need to do anything.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And sometimes I don't think of it as doing nothing.

[Rich Roll]

But, I mean, I'm not saying in every occasion, but in certain situations, it's like, take a moment, Be with that discomfort. And what is behind that discomfort? Why does that make you so uncomfortable? And maybe that's the more interesting thing to explore.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So I have a slightly different take on that. So I work with artists a lot, and they're rich, they're amazing. Like working with a great artist. Because I respond to art just unimaginably strongly and. But I can't create it. So it's this really weird thing of, like, I can't when it comes to writing. I can write things that give me the chills. That's a cool thing, right? To know that I can sit down and I can imagine a scenario and write dialogue and create these characters, and it becomes this very. I feel like I'm channeling. I'm stealing from Stephen King. That's exactly how he describes it. And it. You feel like you're witnessing the story as much as the reader is going to feel like they're witnessing the story. It really Feels awesome. But visual art, which I actually respond incredibly strongly to, I can't create it. And working with artists, I want to, like, sit there until they get it to the point where I feel that thing that I want to feel. And I have learned you can't do that. And so I literally, on the inside, I have so much discomfort because I'm like, TikTok, man, we're not creating this art for fun. Like, this is a part of oftentimes, like right now we're working on a multi million dollar project and they're like, we need more time, we need to explore. And on the inside, I'm like, motherfuckers. Every day that goes by, this is costing me an obscene amount of money. And externally, I'm like, word, take the time, explore. Do what you need to do. So it comes back for me not to what I feel or what I wish were true, but what's actually effective. And if giving that space is effective, then you give the space and it almost doesn't matter. To your point, I can't control it. So if I try to control them, if I try to force them, I won't get what I want. So of course, I tried that in the early days. It did not yield results. And so you find yourself in a position, through trial and error, of just being like, yep, I have to like. And maybe that to you is letting go, but to me it's being strategically silent.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, those two things overlap, I think. I mean, you can't rush the magic, you know. I know what you're talking about. Exactly. And you know, artists are channeling something higher and that cannot be summoned on a deadline or a time frame necessarily. And to the extent that you try to force it, you're undermining the quality of what it is that you're trying to achieve in the first place. You also break something, but with artists, you also, you put it. You have to put up guardrails, you know, kind of gracefully. Like they need. The thing is like they need structure too, but it's that delicate balance of being a support system so they can do their best work while also creating kind of some of the practical accountability that they may not think they need, but they actually do need to do their best work. And that's a dance, you know, that's like an art in and of itself, I think.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, that, that is for sure. In terms of the times I frustrate the artists the most is when I don't give them enough restriction. And that was really eye opening. Like they would Say you're not being clear. And I'm like, I'm being incredibly clear. Like, I don't know what other words you want me to say. And then I realized, oh, my God, like, they're. What they need is, like, the narrow,

[Rich Roll]

narrow, narrow, narrow, narrow.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Like, I feel like I'm hemming them in too much, But. And this was something I learned in film school, but too often forget that the constraints make the art. And when you have, like, Jaws, the famous story, the. He wanted to show the mechanical shark, like, from the word jump, and it kept breaking. And so he had to figure out a way around it between the dunn, the sound and then just the fin, because he couldn't make it work. And then, of course, that becomes, like, your imagination goes so crazy, and you can imagine something far more terrifying than what's actually there. And so it ends up becoming this way greater artistic expression because he couldn't do the thing that he wanted to do. He had limitations.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, sure, sure, sure. That reminds me of J.J. abrams, Ted talk about the mystery box. You remember that? So it's. We all crave the reveal. You know, in that case, what does the shark actually look like? But it's actually the anticipation of the. Of the reveal that actually drives the intrigue and the emotional connection with the storytelling.

[Tom Bilyeu]

No doubt. The end of Lost still makes me want to punch somebody, though. That show was so good, dude. Oh, my God. I want to rewatch everything but the last season.

[Rich Roll]

Oh, I still can. I can still enjoy it, though.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Oh, me too. In fairness, while I do want to punch somebody, nonetheless, it. It makes me want to punch somebody because I was so into it. It's really incredible. I don't even want to take away from them.

[Rich Roll]

It was. It pisses me off that Damon Lindelof gets so much because I think he's a genius, and everything that he creates is just magical, in my opinion.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, it's.

[Rich Roll]

I mean, I'm sure you. What, you saw Watchmen.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I only saw, like, the first episode and somehow didn't get the whole series. Worth it.

[Rich Roll]

It's incredible. Yeah. Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I love. Have you read the comic?

[Rich Roll]

No.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Oh, my God.

[Rich Roll]

My boys have, though. They're, like, obsessed.

[Tom Bilyeu]

It's so good. It. It is a work, A master work of art that makes me want to crawl into the fetal position because I don't think I'll ever be that good. It. It's one of those few pieces of, like, art that you encounter that you just, like. I don't know whether to. To be in awe or to be wounded because it's so good.

[Rich Roll]

It's shocking that you haven't watched the series then.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Well, that's part of why the first episode was so different.

[Rich Roll]

It's very different. I was like, it's basically a Watchmen story inspired by the comic or the graphic novel, but it tackles some pretty heady social issues through the lens of those characters. But it's done in such a masterful way that you can't help but be awestruck by it. So I recommend My Man.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I want to go back to Hubris.

[Rich Roll]

I didn't think we were going to talk about Watchmen and all that.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Neither did I.

[Rich Roll]

There you go. Conversations with Tom. Exactly.

[Tom Bilyeu]

That's the fun of the format. Do you think hubris is just bad, or is it also something that lets us dare greatly?

[Rich Roll]

It's both. I mean, hubris has a negative connotation to it, but I think. Pride and confidence in the capabilities of the human brain has been the engine of progress, and that will continue, and it's accelerating, and there's a lot of wonderful, magical things about it that have created this incredible world that we all get to live in. But I think where we run into trouble is when we don't appreciate that there are things that are beyond our capabilities. Like, I think it's good to think, oh, we can solve any problem. And yet I think it's also important to couch that confidence against an understanding or an appreciation that as advanced as our brains are, they're only so advanced. So, for example, you could spend a lifetime trying to teach your pet snake how to speak English. It doesn't have the brain capacity. It will never understand what you're talking about. And it doesn't have the ability to form language, verbal language, at least, because its brain's not big enough. Our brains are larger. They're capable of doing much more, but they're not the ultimate. Right. We may be just missing a lobe that would allow us to perceive all kinds of amazing things that the capacity of our current brains just are not capable of seeing or understanding, comprehending or perceiving in any way. And when you think of it like we're just. We're, you know, evolution has progressed to a certain point, but there hasn't been, you know, an evolution of the human brain to some kind of organic super brain that could perhaps explain things to us that we're completely unaware of that would be elemental and obvious to that brain. And I think the delta between those two things is where you can find awe, appreciation, wonder, and humility. And I think, you know, kind of inhabiting a healthy dose of humility is. Is important.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, that. That is a central theme in my life. I was once asked how I could be successful and humble at the same time. And I was like, man, humility finds me every day. And the, you know, we were talking about this earlier. It's to really get good at something. It's what I call the physics of progress. But an innate part of the loop of the physics of progress is failure. So you try something, it doesn't quite work. Why didn't it work? And what I think ends up getting people stuck is they one. Normally they don't know what their goal is, but assuming that they actually have a clear goal, they attempt something, they fail to some extent. It hurts. They don't like the way that hurts. They don't want to look at their role in the failure to accept that they're not capable enough or whatever yet, but that. That really stings. And so then they can't muster the. It's not even courage. 1. I don't think people take the time to. If I have an emotion that I can't explain in a single sentence, I know I need to journal about it because I need to figure out why I feel the way that I feel. Otherwise, I can find myself moving in weird ways where I don't even know why I'm doing what I'm doing, because there's just some discomfort that I'm trying to move away from. But if I stop and go, oh, my God, this is because I think I'm whatever. Like, my big struggle in life has always been I don't feel smart enough. And so, like, coming to grips with that idea and understanding, like, how it has propelled me forward to prove to myself, no, no, no, you can do this. But at the same time that it's this haunting idea that, like, is really difficult for me to shake because I have a value system that really wants me to be able to, you know, be incredibly smart. Because, and this is interesting, this is how people. I think about intelligence the way most people think about money. And because I am so in awe of people who are smart and I want to be that in awe of myself that I pursue that death loop of, like, wanting to be smarter all the time, wanting to be smarter, wishing I was smarter, which is. That's sort of the grand struggle of my life, as it were. But in terms of humility, it's just like, if you can stare nakedly at your inadequacies, realize that you can get better, actually do the thing to get better, Rerun another experiment. Then you can get in this, the loop of what I call the physics of progress. But people don't have a clear idea of why they don't want to do it again. And so they just don't. And they just move. It's like, you know, you. You take somebody who has a damage to the their brain that makes it impossible for them to form new memories. And if the doctor comes in, they ran this test, it's so crazy that it's true.

[Rich Roll]

Dr.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Put a pin in their hand. So they shake their hand. It pokes them, the person jerks back. But they won't. Five minutes from now, they won't remember ever meeting that doctor. Doctor leaves to come back. Five minutes later, they extend their hand to shake it. And the person won't shake it because there's a different part of your brain that remembers the pain. So even though when you ask them, why won't you shake my hand? They'd be like, oh, I've never shaken the hand of somebody in the lab coat. I just have a personal rule. It's like, no, you don't. But you're not shaking my hand. Because some part of your brain remembers the pain. And so people live in that part where some deep, unaccessible region of their brain is like, this sucks. This is painful. I don't want to do this. And that stops them from getting in that loop.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, sure. We're all compelled by unconscious drivers to some extent or another. And what you just described so beautifully is a person who has committed themselves to self understanding and self actualization. And I think people don't appreciate how much work that is. That is a commitment. Right. And you can't kind of self actualize unless on some level you are, are, are dedicated to kind of understanding your past, what makes you tick, the way in which your conscious and unconscious mind interact, that calcify these loops that perpetuate behavioral patterns that repeatedly lead you astray. Right. You've done this on your own accord. I was sort of forced into it through addiction. And my Rubric has been 12 step, which is a version of that. That was like my introductory point to a similar trajectory that you just described. But it's all about connecting with who you are. Right. I think most people are walking around totally unconnected from themselves. They don't understand why they do what they do. They continue to do the same things over and over and over again. They flog themselves and yet decline the opportunity to really Deconstruct that, whether it means going to therapy or whatever your modality might be. They're living a reactive life, and then they're confounded and confused when they're not getting the outcomes that they aspire to achieve or manifest in their lives. Right. And for me, I can only speak to my own experience. Like, it's been, you know, decades of trying to delve into what has compelled me to act in certain ways. What's the trauma beneath that? How can I better understand that and then, you know, sort of deconstruct it so that it doesn't hold any more power? What is the evidence to support these narratives that I loop in my mind about who I am? I mean, you mentioned this whole thing about like feeling like you're not smart and just that awareness alone, like, oh, that's what's motivating me to make these decisions. I can harness that as a power, but I can also put that to the test. Like, is that actually true? True. Like, what is, what are, what is the evidentiary support that leads you to have this self belief? And then you can look through the course of your life and identify all kinds of other examples that rebut that evidence and help you create a new narrative for yourself. And it's interesting how humans, we pick out these little incidents that have happened in our lives and we decide that they have great importance and we allow them to form this lattice work of, like, who we are. Like, you know, we hang our identity upon a few isolated incidents that have occurred. When in truth, billions of things happen to us over the course of our lifetimes. And we actually have the power to choose different episodes throughout our life and inject those with meaning. And that's like a muscle that you have to build. But the deeper that you're willing to go into that process of self understanding, I think ultimately the more empowered you, you become when you emerge out of it. Like most people, like you said, they don't want to fail. Failure is painful. And then their, their lizard brain is like, well, I avoid that. Right. First of all, we need a new word for failure because it's so negatively connotated. There should be a word that encourages us to try new things without being so hung up on how they're, how they're perceived by ourselves in the world.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Can I give you a new word for it?

[Rich Roll]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Sample.

[Rich Roll]

Sample.

[Tom Bilyeu]

It's what they use in AI. So I watched this because I was, I teach a class on failure in Impact Theory University and was trying to come up with a Good analogy for it. And I started, I at the same time happened to be researching AI and I had seen this AI learn to play a video game. And it, it's called Breakthrough. It's like an old Atari game. And at first it has, it just knows, get a high score, but it doesn't know how to get a score at all. And so it knows, okay, wait, I can move the paddle. And so it starts like wiggling the paddle back and forth, like completely aimlessly. And then one time the ball randomly happens to hit the paddle and it bounces back up and it scores a point. And so then you see it like, oh, shit. Okay, so now I'm supposed to hit the ball so it like, it like hits the ball and then it starts getting points. And then one time it hits on the side and the ball goes up and starts bouncing around at the top. And that's the design of the game, right? You break through at one point and then it will start like getting the points for you automatically because it gets. The ball gets trapped and it keeps scoring points. And so then these things become deadly efficient. And in AI, of course, the people coding it are not going to say, oh, the AI made a mistake as it's wiggling the paddle about, or when it didn't get the high score, just goes, we have a sample. And so we feed these samples back into the machine. And I was like, if we started thinking of it like that, I tried something. I have a sample piece of data now, and I'm going to take these sample pieces of data and I'm going to plug them back into my mind and I'm going to get better. That to me is, to your point, the exact kind of thing that we need to do to free ourselves from thinking, oh, when I was wiggling the paddle, it was really embarrassing because if you imagine that's a per. Like when I imagine myself learning to play Breakthrough in front of a crowd of 10,000 people and I'm just wiggling the paddle back and forth. I'm like, that would really be embarrassing. But the AI is not embarrassed. And that's why the AI becomes this like breakthrough machine, because it just keeps getting new samples, new sample, new sample, new sample.

[Rich Roll]

Whether you call it sample or failure or testing or whatever you call it, ultimately it. It. You basically said like the AI was not embarrassed. Right? So the AI has healthy self esteem, right? Exactly. The AI's self esteem is not threatened by whether or not this sample or test was successful or, or a failure. So rooted in that is this Sense of self and self esteem. And this is just top of mind right now because I had Scott Berry Kaufman came over to do my podcast yesterday. I don't know if he. Has he been on your show? I know that psychologist is fantastic. He's got this book out called Transcend. He's a humanistic psychologist who's taught at Columbia, nyu, like a whole bunch of plays. Very credentialed guy. And this book is basically he, he, he, he's like obsessed with Abraham Maslow and Maslow's hierarchy. Deep dive into Maslow's life and realize that when Maslow died at, at in 1970, he wasn't done with his work. And a lot of what we commonly understand about Maslow's hierarchy of needs is sort of miscast. Like we think of this pyramid, right? And he's like, Maslow actually never used the pyramid that ended up in like leadership, you know, keynotes or something like that. But he thought of it more as, you know, a two, like one step forward, two steps back, two steps forward, one step back thing. Like just because you have some basic needs met, you don't ascend up. Like you may have, you may move up that ladder and then suddenly, you know, something happens, there's a famine or a pandemic and those base needs are threatened again. So it's an ongoing kind of thing. But a core need in that hierarchy is self esteem. And self esteem is driven by external forces and internal forces. So it's what the world thinks of you and how the world perceives you that gets filtered into how you feel about yourself. And then there's what's going on inside of you, right? That sense that you mentioned of like, I feel like I'm not smart or you know, I'm concerned that people don't think I'm smart. Those are two different things. One's internal, one's external. And to the extent that we can address that and develop healthy self esteem internally, such that however the external world perceives us is not threatening that sense of self, then I think it's more empowering for us to go out into the world and fail. Or sample, no doubt.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And I will spare people the suffering of what other people think doesn't matter. So the world could think that I'm smart all day long, but if I don't, it won't matter. And the same is true. So that's why I liken it to money. Like people think, oh, if I get money, I will feel about myself the way that I feel about the people that I look at who are wealthy, and I'm, you know, blown away.

[Rich Roll]

And most people pursue that delusion to the grave. And even when people who are as successful as you get on a microphone and tell people, trust me, you know, it's still like, yeah, but, you know, and that's fair. So just get that thing.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And here's why people will chase it forever, because money is powerful. It just isn't what people think. So people think it's going to make them feel better about themselves and that life will just be joyous every moment thereafter. And it won't. But it really does let you do amazing things. But if you hate yourself, all the money in the world is not going to solve that. And if you believe to your core that you'll never be happy again, money can't touch that, first of all. And then when people believe that, they commit suicide, Right? And it's like, how many billionaires have to commit suicide before people realize money isn't going to solve that thing, whatever that thing is, Right? So, yeah, money solves money problems. Money lets you build, Money lets you create. Money gives you freedom. It does all of those things. And so that's why, like, people recognize that it would solve certain problems, and they. Because it has real utility, people will never stop chasing. It's the same thing with fame. Fame has utility, and therefore people will chase it. But fame isn't what people are expecting, nor is money. But if you know how to use them for what they are, they're great. But at the end of the day, the thing that I am just so careful about, I'm very grateful that I learned these lessons. Painfully, of course, as I have learned every lesson in my life through suffering. But I Learned in my 20s that money wasn't going to be able to solve my problems and that I needed to do that work. But, yeah, getting people to do that work also is hard.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah. So if you had to identify the locus of what brings you satisfaction in your life, like, where does that rest?

[Tom Bilyeu]

The only things that really matter are. And this is what happens when two podcasters interview each other. Like, you're asking me as many questions as I'm asking you.

[Rich Roll]

It's conversations.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Exactly, Exactly. So fulfillment, which for me is an equation. So fulfillment is working hard. I think that's a directive that we have buried so deeply in our brains that if you're not doing it, you will feel something weird. So working hard to gain a set of skills that matter to you, that allow you to serve not only yourself, but other people. So that could be through guitar, that you get so good at guitar that you're able to make people feel something emotional and they express their gratitude to you for that. So that's a core part of it. And then joy. So to joyfully pursue the difficult acquisition of skills that matter to me, that allow me to serve people, to serve myself and other people. And then I'll put one sort of caveat on that, which is my marriage is my highest priority. It's the thing that has given me the most joy, for sure. But there's also something else in there, around safety. About my wife holding space, space and for her to be a backstop. And I read a stat and I don't remember where I saw this, but the people with the strongest home life take the biggest risks. And the reason I think that's true is that I say to myself all the time, I could go broke, but as long as I have my wife, I'm good. And I know that's true because I've been broke with my wife and it was awesome. So I don't fear losing finances. I don't fear being unsuccessful. I fear losing my wife. That scares the piss out of me.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, that's so interesting because again, I have this book transcend on my mind and this hierarchy of needs and it tracks exactly with the thesis of this book. Like people who have those base needs of security and safety sort of locked in and taken care of. So financially you're secure, but it's really your relationship with your wife that is the true anchor. That sense of stability allows you to be more engaged in risk because you have that foundation there. It allows you to go out and try different things and ultimately provides an opportunity for your life to get even larger by dint of the fact that you're willing to take those risks. It's fascinating to the extent that you're finding to your point about fulfillment and purpose as you kind of move up this hierarchy to self actualization and ultimately transcendence, which is where Maslow was kind of orienting his thinking around the time that he died, but didn't complete his work. It is that idea of being in a place where your behaviors and your actions are thoroughly aligned with your values and you're deriving great fulfillment from the work that you're doing or whatever it is that you're expressing in the world. And it's inextricably tied to this sense that on some level you're contributing to the betterment of humanity in your own unique way. And that's really like that's the key, right? If you can get to that place. And I aspire to that and feel like I have some connection to that. And that's what gets me up in the morning and gets me excited. I get to do this thing that I love and meet all these amazing people. It also provides for my family and I'm putting it out into the world and it's raising the vibration of the conversation or the way that people are perceiving their own lives. It's cool.

[Tom Bilyeu]

It's incredible. It's really incredible. One thing that has always impressed me in your story is that you have, you have some way of dealing with failure that is pretty extraordinary. So there's obviously as an ultra endurance athlete, there was one race where you were coughing up blood which would be terrifying and I think that was the race where you had a brief, a day long break with sobriety after 13 years, which I thought was utterly fascinating. How did you write the ship so fast, sobriety wise? Yeah, yeah.

[Rich Roll]

So that was in 2011. I had trained an entire year to compete in a race called Ultraman, which is a double ironman race. I put everything into being as prepared as I possibly could with the intention of, of, of trying to win that race. And I showed up just so good to go. And things didn't go my way. You know.

[Tom Bilyeu]

What caused you to start coughing up blood?

[Rich Roll]

I was, I was extremely lean. I was, I was down to 158 pounds. So I think I was a little, I was probably five to seven pounds too lean for that race. In endurance, it's all about your power to weight ratio and you're trying to get to that exact sweet spot where you're as light as possible without sacrificing power. And I think I tipped that scale a little bit too much towards being too lean and that compromised my immune system. And so when I was pushing, pushing, pushing really hard, I think I just had a low grade respiratory infection that my body couldn't like keep at bay and it caught up to me and that kind of derailed that whole race. And what I, and what happened was, yeah, I ended up having a day long relapse after 10 years of sobriety

[Tom Bilyeu]

before we get to that moment. So you cough up blood, you decide you're not going to finish the race. What's going on in your head at that moment? Are you like, it's all good or were you just raging out?

[Rich Roll]

I was angry and disappointed and frustrated. A lot of sacrifice had gone into that, you know, time away from Family and you know, financial sacrifice. Like it takes a lot of time to train for these races. It's like a, it's a full time job. So yeah, I was extremely disappointed, upset with myself, confused because I still have that, you know, I wanted to control that outcome and I couldn't control it.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So we haven't discovered surrender yet.

[Rich Roll]

No. And really what had happened and what I learned in the, the wake of that that is, has been kind of a lever for growth was in the year leading up to that race, I had made my performance in that race and my training my higher power. And I had lost sight of what's required to stay sober and what the bigger picture is. So it's not that I ever thought I'm not an alcoholic and I don't need to go to meetings anymore. I, I, I, I always knew that, but I just deprioritized that type of self care which has to be my number one priority in order to be the person that I'm capable of being. And I allowed the training in this race to commandeer and take higher priority, you know, commandeer that focus and take a higher priority than it should have. And that relapse was a reminder like hey, you're, you're, you're not cured and you need to sort your shit out and remember what's most important. And so it allowed me to re, enter recovery with a deeper sense of humility because it's powerlessness. You know, I had to, I had to deepen that surrender and realize like, even though, yeah, I'm an alcoholic, but like I haven't drank in 10 years, like do I really need to go to these meetings? Do I need to do all this stuff like I'm good. And I realized like, oh, it's cunning, baffling and powerful and you forgot just how powerful it is. And just when you thought you could control taught you that you don't have control over this thing. And so I had to humble myself. And I think at the same time after having 10 years of sobriety, you kind of, I know how this works. I can go into these rooms and like I'm the guy with the answer and I'm the guy that the newcomer calls and I can say the right thing and you know, I'm an elder, you know, and there's an ego attachment to that that needed to get destroyed and was destroyed. So I was able to return to that with a, with a deeper sense of humility and appreciation for the fact that I had indulged my self well and had forgotten that what had gotten me to that point was a level of humility and surrender that once my life started to get good again, I was like, well, I don't need that anymore. I had taken my power back and misappropriated my priorities. And so now I have so much more of a deeper appreciation for,

[Tom Bilyeu]

for

[Rich Roll]

the principles that, that keep me sober. And it's just enriched my relationship with the program and the community of people and the tools that got me sober and continue to keep me sober.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And so understanding the part about you had replaced your higher power, did that open the, the path to drinking again because that higher power had let you down as you had to bounce out of the race? Is that the problem? Like, I don't understand why a higher power is so effective. Even though I get intuitively that it is.

[Rich Roll]

It's tricky. It's tricky. I put all my eggs into the basket of this race and that's really an act of ego. Right? I'll be okay when I do this race and do well and I can show everybody that I am this person or my self worth is contingent upon how this race goes. As opposed to appreciating, understanding and living in the sense that we're all spiritual beings having a human experience. And you know, my ego is not necessarily my friend because we're all expansive and irrespective of what happens in the external world, we all have much to contribute. And ultimately it's not about any of that stuff other than how you conduct yourself, how you are of service to other people and how you care for yourself and your family.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Okay, so you have the drinks, but you very quickly are refocused. What do you start telling yourself? Like what's the self narrative around sobriety? Do you think I this all up? Do you count sobriety from the day back in 98, 99?

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, it was, it was. What year was that? Yeah, so, yeah, so I went to, I went to treatment in 98. But yeah, technically like when I relapsed in, it was the end of. It was 2011. December of 2011. Yeah, you reset the date and that's some humble pie shit. You know what I mean? Like, I would like to tell you that I have 24 years of sobriety. That's technically not true. And to go back into the rooms and to call my friends and you know, the people that I'm close with in the programming, be like, hey man, I just did this thing. Like that's, that's not an easy phone call to make. You know, that Humble pie.

[Tom Bilyeu]

But ultimately, did you ever consider not telling anyone?

[Rich Roll]

Oh yeah. The addict in you is like, no one needs to know this. I could. That's the, that's the, that's the addict voice. Like get away with this. I just got go back and pretend like everything's okay, but then you're not living in integrity, you know. And the longer that I'm sober and the more work I do on myself, the more intolerant I become for behaviors that are not in alignment with the person that I would like to be. Right. And I'm sure on your own path, like you experience some version of that in 12 step, they say the road gets narrower. It's like at first it's like you want to just stop using and drinking. You're like, if I could just go a day without getting high, that would be a miracle. Because you're so craven and so captured by this, this, this substance or this behavior that's controlling you. And if you could be liberated from that, then everything will be fine. But then you break that chain and then it becomes about emotional sobriety. That's when the real work starts and you begin this journey of self discovery and self actualization. And the more, the, the deeper that you go into that, the more things you realize you have to let go of. Right? Like I thought it was just not having to drink anymore, but now I can't, you know, lash out at the cashier or cut somebody off in traffic, or I can't, you know, I can't hit the drive through, you know, and get a bunch of cheeseburgers on the way home because it makes me feel like, and it doesn't feel like it's integrated in an integrous with this person that I want to be. So you end up shedding all of these things until you get to the point, like, do I have to give up another thing like Jesus Christ, you know, how far does this have to go? And it feels self flagellating at times or like you're being this martyr. But the more that I shed those layers and the more in integrity that I begin to walk, the more self esteem I feel, the more integrated I feel, the more self actualized I feel. And to your point about spirituality, I feel like I exude a certain energy and I attract a different type of person into my life and I'm able to kind of interact with people and navigate the world from a much more powerful, grounded space of, of being than I could otherwise. And that's a very intangible thing. And you Know, like, if somebody were to walk into this room right now who is fully self actualized, you feel their energy, you can tell, you're like, I want to, I want to. Who is that? Like, I want to go and talk to that person. Conversely, somebody who is all up and has bad energy, they walk in there, you feel that too. Can you put your finger on what that is? Exactly. But you know it, right?

[Tom Bilyeu]

That's crazy. So I have somebody in my life that I love that was sober for, I'm going to guess it had to be close to 30 years and they are drinking again. I didn't see that coming. Like, that one really caught me off guard and I'm not even sure what the question is. Like, do you just give them space? Like, are there, like, how do you help? Like, I don't even know what took them off. Like they, they were, do. They were a paragon. Like, what they overcame was insane. It was so impressive and they were just doing so good for so long that I never thought they would use again.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, it's tough. It's so hard. The first thing is you have to recognize and appreciate that for somebody who is truly an alcoholic, the shocking thing isn't when they relapse or drink. The shocking thing is that they actually wake up and go throughout their day and don't drink. Because the disposition of the alcoholic is to get drunk, right? So every day that goes by that they don't do that is like, wow. And you know, more people than not fall off the wagon and relapse and it's heartbreaking. And as somebody who is compassionate and empathetic towards that person and wants to help, it's a very delicate dance. You cannot compel somebody to change who doesn't want to change. That is a futile effort. So all you can do is be available to them and let them know that you're available to help them when they're ready to get help. And you can flex a little. Tough love here and there. You can have healthy boundaries around that. Like, look, I love you, you know, I don't understand why you're drinking. When you're ready to get help, come and talk to me. But until then, like, I'm not available. Like, or. Because if that person is, if something's like either calling you up and they want money or they want you to pick them up, they got arrested and they want you to go bail them out like, like that. Like, you have to have a healthy boundary around that. And it's really hard. It's particularly hard you know, when you're. When it's somebody in your family because you're fearful for good reason, that something terrible might happen to them, and oftentimes it does. And again, that's another healthy dose of humility and powerlessness because you want to. You see how to solve the problem. And yet it's so difficult to get that person's head around that fact because they're. They're so captured and they're so in their disease that even if they intellectually understand that they can't keep doing this, they're powerless to stop it. And I think it's important to understand that it is a disease, right? Like, it's not a. It's not a referendum on their moral character. Like, they are captured by a disease that is trying to kill them. So brutal.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And I think that this, you know, to. I've heard you talk about a broader idea of what addiction is, which makes a lot of sense to me. And as it applies to food, there are. Because I grew up in a morbidly obese family with. Not in. In my immediate family, there were no alcoholics, but in, like, cousins, aunts, uncles, it was pretty intense. And seeing people that I love struggle with food and just not be able to shake it. And I mean, obviously for me, that's irony of ironies, given that my success is tied to a nutrition company. But even though they're in pain and they're coming to you saying, I'm in physical pain, I just wish that this would go away. And you're like, hey, totally understand. And the way that I respond to that is the only thing that makes me sad. Somebody, like an obese person eating ice cream is awesome. If they're enjoying the ice cream and they're willing to pay the price, it's super sad. If they're eating the ice cream and they're sad about it, that's the only one that bums me out. And I'm like, if you ever decide that it's not worth the price anymore, then there are steps that we can take and you can do things to alleviate a lot of that pain, but I can't want it for them, which is like the. The great.

[Rich Roll]

It's rough. It's like when the elevator is going down, you have the option of getting off it before it hits rock bottom. But everybody's pain threshold is different. You know, you mentioned pain. Pain is the great motivator. It's the only thing that's ever gotten me to, like, stop any kind of crazy that I was doing. But if you have a very high pain tolerance, which a lot of addicts do, um, the. The. The fear or the pain associated with the change always exceeds the pain of their current situation. And it's not until or unless the pain of their current situation is so great that it overshadows the fear of doing something different. And it's so hard. Right. But I think to look at it through that lens of addiction and the cunning, baffling, powerful nature of it, you can feel a little bit of compassion for that person and perhaps reserve that judgmental aspect of you that wants to say, what the fuck is your problem? Like, just stop. Like, this is a. This is a function of, you know, character failure. Because you can't just stop doing this thing that's killing you. And for a lot of people, it's too difficult, or there's something hormonally going on with them that makes their relationship with that thing all the more difficult. Or they're being driven by some discomfort that's bred in childhood trauma. And the only thing that gives them peace is that food or that behavior or that substance. And to your point about addiction, living on a spectrum, and stop me if I'm getting on a loop, but I think it's important to point out that the more we learn about addiction, the more we realize that it isn't just about the drunk in the gutter or the guy who can't pull the needle out of his arm. That on some level, we're all prey to some form of addictive, compulsive behavior patterns that are interfering with us, aligning our values with our actions. Movies like the Social Dilemma and this crisis that we're now talking about with respect to mobile devices and how much power they hold over our attention, I think is creating a broader mainstream conversation about the nature of addiction, because it's something that everybody can relate to, even if they don't have a drinking problem or they don't know anyone who, you know, can't stop smoking crack.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, it's. Man. Addiction in general is obviously very intense. Food is super freaky. What's going on with all kinds of technologically manipulated, you know, algorithmic response to things is. Is definitely gives me pause. And irony of irony is as we talk about addiction, the thing that comes to mind is what got us back in contact recently, because I am now addicted in a fun way to Shrimu, which is a vegan cheese that your wife made. It's unreal. I happened to. I was trying to clear out all the text messages on My phone because they build up and so you realize that you've missed some for a long, long time. And I saw one from you and it was from like a year ago and it was like, hey, I sent you some Shrimu. Let me know when you get it. And I was like, oh shit, I never got it. I don't know what happened to you. Right.

[Rich Roll]

I probably sent it to your other house, I can't remember.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Very, very likely. And so I replied and I was like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. And if I'm completely honest, I thought vegan cheese, like I don't know, rich, but send it and I will try it. And so I tried it when the new shipment arrived. It's freakishly good. And yeah, I'm really, really blown away now. It also came at a moment where I'm so, I have another show called Health Theory which you would have been an amazing guest for that show as well. I just know you have so much more depth. I wanted to spend time here where we could really meander. But David Sinclair put something together for me which is, dude, I feel like a million bucks when I eat meat. And so I could just never wrap my head around like why would I go vegan? Like this feels so good. And his thing is, I get it because it's triggering mtor, it's making you feel, you know, you're in growth mode. So I understand why that would feel good, but it just isn't tied to longevity. And when you look at longevity then you start getting into plant based or vegan. And so I am exploring a more plant based existence in part because of Shrimu is the first vegan thing I've tried where I was like, God damn, like this is good. I will eat that on a cheat day because it just tastes so good. And one I want everyone to know I don't get paid for this. This is not a paid promotion. I'm just really that into it. But help me, talk to me about the nutrition side of vegetarianism or veganism. Like do you have a deep exploration of the science or do you just follow how your body feels?

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, I mean, well, first of all, thank you for the kind words about Shremo. I have a few more things I want to say about that. But to, to answer your question, you know, I've been plant based now for 15 years. Um, feel great. I'm back training right now. I'm going to do some open water marathon swimming races this summer. Um, I'm still able to build lean muscle mass and improve in, you know, all the good things. And I promised myself when I made this switch to resist being captured by any kind of dogmatism, like if I didn't feel good or something was to go awry, that I would redress it and try something else. But it's continued to serve me and, you know, my relationship with how I do it has evolved and it depends on how hard I'm pushing my body. And I've made a lot of mistakes and learned a few things along the way. And I did it initially because I was fat and felt like shit and it was vanity, honestly. And then it kind of restored my vitality. It agreed with me. And then I thought, well, I need to really better understand this. And over the course of this journey, I've now become much more educated and sensitive to the environmental considerations of the foods that we eat and the impact that they have on the planet and of course, the compassionate reasons to avoid animal agriculture. But from a health perspective, there's also all of this interesting information and science coming out right now around longevity from people like David Sinclair and even from Dan Buettner and the Blue Zones who studied the centenarians that live the longest all over the world. And among the kind of many commonalities that these cultures share is they don't eat very much meat. I think there's one or two that are, they're essentially completely plant based. They're not like vegan cultures. But like meat is a delicacy that's enjoyed only once in a while. And you have people like David and Valter Longo who are really looking at longevity and what drives it. And when they look at me, they realize, like, this is not a longevity food. Right? So whether you want to cut it out completely or really restrict your, your, you know, kind of enjoyment of it is up to you. And it's not for me to tell anybody how they should or shouldn't eat. I'm just here to tell you that I've been doing this for a long time and I, and I, I feel good. I'm 55.

[Tom Bilyeu]

What are some of the mistakes you make? You look incredible, by the way.

[Rich Roll]

Extraordinarily, hair's getting great.

[Tom Bilyeu]

You look up close, you look amazing. It's easy to look good on camera. It's hard to look at up close.

[Rich Roll]

You look great. Thanks, man. Your question was how you've made mistakes?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, I mean, I think, I think

[Rich Roll]

the big challenge now for people because eating like the plant based movement is so much bigger now than when I started And I was just one of a handful of athletes who were kind of checking it out. And now it's become this thing that even I wouldn't have predicted. But the challenge with that is that now there are so many meat and dairy analog products that are getting better and better at tasting like the thing that you're used to. And most of these products, shriunu not included sh only has like four ingredients. It's just coconut oil and cashews and like, and moss. It's some kind of wizardry because I'm like, how do you make this taste this way with cashews and coconut oil?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Real. I know, it's unreal.

[Rich Roll]

Put a pin in that for a moment. But, but yeah, I mean, it's very easy to say, oh, I went plant based and you're just eating processed burgers and sausages and, you know, all, you know, baloney sandwiches and all kinds of bullshit and deluding yourself that you're eating healthy when in fact you're just eating a highly processed diet that's probably not much better than whatever it was you're doing before. So for me, it always is about whole foods. Like, whole foods is close to their natural state. Predominantly plants, in my case, exclusively plants. But I think for anybody looking to dial up their plate, you know, maybe try 30 days of being plant predominant whole food and see how you feel and go from there.

[Tom Bilyeu]

But let's break that down. So I tried that haphazardly once and I did not feel good.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And so I've said that on podcasts before, but I'm always careful to say I did that. So just like scattershot. But like, if you're really going to do that. I was eating baby carrots, collard greens, bok choy, kale, jicama, cucumber. Sounds like you're probably missing a few things, but that's it.

[Rich Roll]

You gotta eat more calories.

[Tom Bilyeu]

That was predominantly plant based. I was still having some eggs and a little bit of meat.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Um, so I wasn't starving, but I'm guessing that that's too limited.

[Rich Roll]

Well, it depends on your kind of caloric output. But what's like, I mean, I eat a lot of food. I. I mean a lot of people say, well, I was starving all the time. But you're, you're switching from very rice kind of. I do, but I love rice sparingly,

[Tom Bilyeu]

but it spikes my glucose.

[Rich Roll]

Right. So instead of that, eat black beans or lentils or a lower glycemic carbohydrate, sweet potatoes or Something like that. Instead of rice.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Dude, sweet potatoes. I left that out. I could live off of sweet potatoes. I'd feel terrible.

[Rich Roll]

They're pretty, they're, they're, they're great.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Like how do you prepare them?

[Rich Roll]

You just bake them. Can I put a little olive oil on it? A little bit.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Can I heat it up?

[Rich Roll]

What's that?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Can I heat it up? Yeah, in the olive oil. Because then it's basically a French fry and it's unreasonably good.

[Rich Roll]

Well, just be, be sparing with the oil.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Here's what I do. I slice it up, I put some olive oil on it, stir it around, and then I put it in an air fryer. So good.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

But it feels like French fries. I'm okay with that.

[Rich Roll]

It's, I think a mistake that people make when they go plant based is suddenly everything's covered in oil. Yeah. And oil is obviously very olive oil. Very. Any oil, like any oil is very calorically dense and not nutritionally dense. So what you want to do is focus on nutritionally dense foods and making sure that you meet your caloric needs. And if you're eating a very meat and dairy laden diet, that's going to be a big difference because those are very calorically dense foods. And if you're suddenly just eating salads, you're going to be starving all the time. So you want like tons of dark leafy greens and a wide variety of colorful vegetables and all of that. But you also want to feel sated. So. So finding the right carbohydrate sources that, that agree with you, I think is a little journey that everyone goes on. Like, I love potatoes and actually russet potatoes are much more nutritious than people think.

[Tom Bilyeu]

What's a russet potato?

[Rich Roll]

Just a typical potato.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Like a brown potato?

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, like a brown potato. They're actually pretty nutritious. We kind of dismiss them. What do you put. But it's all about how you prepare it. Yeah. If you make, if you, if you eat french fries, that's not healthy. But if you just eat a baked potato and put some nutritional yeast on it and some sea salt or something like that. Yeast? Yeah. High in 12 in it. It's sort of, it has like a parmesan kind of vibe to it.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Do you sprinkle it?

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, you sprinkle it on there.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Can I get it in a bag

[Rich Roll]

like you get it in Bragg's make it. It comes in like a jar. You can get it at any whole foods. Most grocery stores.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I don't Even know what that is. This is going to be a whole journey.

[Rich Roll]

It's high in beach. Well, it's good. So it's about finding you know, like a lot of like the foods that we crave, the meat and dairy foods that we create, you know, a lot of it is about the sauces. So if you can create healthy sauces for healthier types of foods and you're, then you're kind of meeting those satiety kind of desires or things that you're used to. But it's a process. And I think, you know, back to your point about sampling versus failure when it comes to any kind of change and certainly dietary change, people like go, I'm going to go on this diet or I'm going to. First of all, nobody should go on a diet. They should be trying to change their lifestyle habits in a manner that is sustainable. Right. So that's key, you know that. But in that process, rather than look at it like I'm trying to do this thing and I slipped up and so I failed. It was a sampling error or it was information. Why did I make that choice? Why did I end up, oh, it's because, you know, I had too many shitty foods in my cabinet that were too easily available for me. Maybe I should get rid of those or I just had a fight with my spouse and now I realize like when I'm emotionally distressed I habitually, you know, reach out for that thing that's unhealthy to kind of soothe my emotional state. You know, emotional eating. Regardless of whether you're a food quote unquote addict or not, on some level, I think we're all programmed to make food choices based on our emotional needs. Right? Like, and we're not even consciously aware that we're trying to soothe ourselves in that way. And I think the more self awareness that you can come into around that is powerful and beneficial. And then it's about, you know, making healthy choices, always accessible, doing a little bit of planning. I think people think if you're going plant based you got to like upend your whole life and spend all day preparing meals.

[Tom Bilyeu]

It does sound like that to me.

[Rich Roll]

I'm not gonna lie. It's not like that.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I'm gonna end up eating an unhealthy amount of shrimu. It's easy and it's delicious and I actually mean that literally. But so shrimu is a very high

[Rich Roll]

caloric food so you gotta eat it sparingly. We were talking about that before, but it, but it only has a couple ingredients in it, it is magical wizardry that my wife has concocted and created. She's a badass entrepreneur. She's gonna, she's, she's gonna turn this company into like a big thing. She's raising a bunch of money right now. It's pretty exciting. And I'm just in awe of watching her like do her thing and step into her power with this beautiful product that she's created. And it's exciting, it's delicious.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Now on the. Because the thing I need to solve for is what's your version of meat? So when I'm eating, I've got like my eggs and, and then a side of greens or whatever. What's the like thing? Is it beans? Is it potatoes? Like what's the center anchor? Yeah, the anchor. Thank you.

[Rich Roll]

Why does it have to be an anchor?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Maybe there doesn't, but that's how I think of food.

[Rich Roll]

But that's a social construct. Interesting, is it not?

[Tom Bilyeu]

I don't know. Like when I. What's the thing that is going to make me feel full? Maybe that's my real question.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, I mean the, the, the. The carbohydrates are going to probably make you more full than. Than eating a bunch of grains. Of course. Right. So I eat tons of potatoes.

[Tom Bilyeu]

You mean like starchy carbohydrates?

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, like. Right. But you have to be. You, you gotta make sure you're. That the grain, if you're eating grains that they, that they're whole grains, you don't want to eat. You don't want to be eating a bunch of refined grains.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And I think that's another mistake that a lot of, A lot of people make lectins.

[Rich Roll]

I think it's. I think it's a non issue. You know, I really do. Like, I listen, if you're not cooking your beans, then potentially it's a problem. But who doesn't cook their beans? The only time you eat beans is when they're cooked. I honestly think it's a, a non conversation.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Okay, so even on rice. Whole grain rice?

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, whole grain rice. I'm pretty sparing with rice. I. Tons of.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Because of the glycemic lentils.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah. But like I also like when I'm training, like I eat tons. So I eat tons of.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Why sparing them rice? I want you to tell me I can have white rice. That's the point here, Rich. I want some white rice.

[Rich Roll]

I mean, first of all, white rice is a refined grain. They stripped out that the healthy part of the rice to make it more Tasty. So I would encourage you to try a long grain rice or, you know,

[Tom Bilyeu]

some kind of brown rice because of what it adds.

[Rich Roll]

But why don't you try, why don't you, why don't you swap the rice out for quinoa instead, which has. Which is much higher in protein and

[Tom Bilyeu]

lower glycemic or roughly the same?

[Rich Roll]

No, much lower glycemic.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Okay.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I'm open to experimenting for sure. Okay, so that is very helpful in terms of the anchor item for it. What are some gotchas? Like what, what rookie mistakes do people make?

[Rich Roll]

Processed foods, like I said, you know, now, now there's so many and they taste pretty good. So deluding yourself into thinking you're eating healthy.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I had a beyond burger that spiked me as hard as ice cream.

[Rich Roll]

Oh, did it really? I was like, whoa, are you using a cgm?

[Tom Bilyeu]

I was at the time. Not right now, but yeah, yeah. I was like, I was so excited. I was like, oh, I got to try this thing. This is amazing. And then my blood sugar was just

[Rich Roll]

going up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I was like, whoa. I think it topped out at like1.78 or something crazy like that. I was like, God damn. Ice cream.

[Rich Roll]

Interesting. Yeah, interesting. I mean, I think the more we learn about the impact of large scale factory animal agriculture, the more clear it becomes that we need to move towards a more sustainable, plant, predominant way of living. And I think in that context, or in the context of, you know, opting out of the slaughter of billions of animals every year, that the beyond burgers and the impossibles and all of that hold a very important place as transition foods for people who really don't want to go plant based, but need something that they're used to that they like, that tastes like what they want it to taste like. And those, those foods serve their purpose well for that, I think. But ultimately, if you want to be maximally, optimally healthy, you want to be always looking at the whole foods. So tons of nuts, seeds and grain like you're doing this intermittent fast, but most people aren't. You know, if you want to be like sort of grazing throughout the day to keep your blood sugar high, like I always keep pumpkin seeds and almonds and bananas in the car. Roasted. Yeah, Raw. Always raw.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Raw pumpkin seeds.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah. And if you combine, if you combine pumpkin seeds with something high in vitamin

[Tom Bilyeu]

C. Are they wet?

[Rich Roll]

Increases the iron uptake.

[Tom Bilyeu]

How do you get a raw pumpkin seed without all the goop on them?

[Rich Roll]

You just chew them.

[Tom Bilyeu]

But are they. But I'm saying, like, do they have like the goop on them?

[Rich Roll]

No, they're like dry.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So they do get them, dry them away. They just don't roast them.

[Rich Roll]

They're just a little chewier, man. That's all.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Because roasted pumpkin seeds that like have. What do they put on them? Like cinnamon and stuff? Yeah, buddy, I'll take me some of that. But raw.

[Rich Roll]

Not so sure.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Not so sure. Okay, so people mess up. They take processed food. It's transitional. I wanted to ask you.

[Rich Roll]

And I think also people don't eat enough calories, like, because they're used to these very calorically dense foods. And then they go plant based and they say they're starving all the time. It's like, eat more.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I was going to say that seems like a pretty obvious response, you know,

[Rich Roll]

and focus on the foods that are most nutritionally dense. Like dark leafy greens are like the base of everything that I do. And for protein, it's tons of lentils, black beans, quinoa, things like that. I'm big on smoothies because you could basically take what would ordinarily be just an absolutely massive salad that you would never sit down in the morning and eat and put it in a blender and basically turbocharge yourself with all kinds of healthy micronutrients and give me a

[Tom Bilyeu]

smoothie that you make.

[Rich Roll]

It varies.

[Tom Bilyeu]

We put in like a blueberry base in here.

[Rich Roll]

What are we talking about? Well, no, the base is always dark leafy greens. So kale, spinach, charge, word up. And then I'm big on like beetroot, beets and beet greens. Especially if I'm gonna, if I've got a big training session. Because beets are so good for oxygen uptake. They really are an endurance booster. So if I'm training really hard, beats make their way in there.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Blackberries don't do that when you're not training because they're high in sugar.

[Rich Roll]

No, I just. They're not as tasty, you know, I mean, it's an acquired taste to like, you know, blend a whole beat, drink it, you know, and then you, you know, and then when you go to the bathroom and it all comes out red, you have a moment of panic. Yes, indeed, that happens. Then berries, like blackberries, blueberries, you know, super high antioxidants. Bananas, some spirulina, which is actually the highest, has the highest protein content by weight of any food. I think I have that right. Like very high protein content. I love spirulina.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I don't even know what spirulina is

[Rich Roll]

I can't picture like an algae base, but you can get it in a powder. Yeah, I do a little bit of plant based protein powder, but I don't overdo it with that. I'm not trying to meet my protein needs with protein powders. And then what else do I put in there?

[Tom Bilyeu]

And your heavy hitter on proteins is beans and quinoa.

[Rich Roll]

Beans, Quinoa. Basically. When you talk about protein, we're just talking about amino acids. Right. The building blocks of protein. When you eat protein, your body breaks it down into those amino acids and then reassembles it. And all plant foods have amino, all the amino acids. Really what we need are the nine essential amino acids that our bodies can't, can't create on their own. We need them from external sources. And if you're just eating a wide variety of plant foods, you're going to meet your protein needs. And if you feel like you need more, there are plant foods that are higher in protein that make it really not that big of a deal. I know bodybuilders that are plant based. I have a bodybuilder friend, Nimai Delgado, who's never eaten meat in his entire life and was a competitive bodybuilder. And if. I'll show you his Instagram after this. Like, his physique is ridiculous. I mean, he was in the movie the Game Changers. If you saw that.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I have.

[Rich Roll]

Which is another resource you might want to check out, which is basically about being a plant based athlete.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, this stuff is a trip. It wasn't until David Sinclair, like, I've really recently gotten into like, what's going on mechanistically for longevity, like the MTOR pathway. And looking at like, what's going on with uric acid, the impacts on mitochondria, like, it's all starting to come together in terms of like, what are the things, like fructose's role in storing fat and like beginning to understand. Okay, this sort of do's and don'ts. In fact, where do you fall on fruit?

[Rich Roll]

Like, are you. I eat tons of fruit. Yeah. I, I think being afraid of fruit is ridiculous.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Do you at all differentiate between different types of fruit or not at all?

[Rich Roll]

Not really. I have friends that, I have a type 1 diabetic friend of mine, Robbie Babaro, who is a fruitarian. That is all he eats.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Does he exercise a lot?

[Rich Roll]

He, he eats cases and cases of fruit. He goes to the farmer's market and buys more fruit than you can possibly imagine. That is all he eats. And He's a type 1 diabetic and this helps control his blood glucose. He wrote a book and he's been on my podcast. He's got a program called Mastering Diabetes. And what's so interesting about that is it contravenes everything that we think about the relationship between food and blood glucose. Because you think fruit sugar spike your glucose. Not good. That's something a diabetic should not do or somebody who's worried about diabetes should avoid. And in fact, he's experienced the opposite of that. Like, you would have to talk to him. But I think when you're eating fruit, it's easy to say, you know, I'm not a believer in like, oh, whether it's a Coca Cola or an apple, it's all the same. It's all sugar. Like the fruit in. Or the sugar in fruit comes in a matrix of fiber. And when you digest it, your body has to break all of that down and it creates, you know, more of a drip like effect than a crazy spike that would occur if you're drinking Coca Cola. Have you worn a doctor's glucose monitor? What's that?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Have you worn a continuous glucose monitor?

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, yeah, I have.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And fruit does elevate you. Doesn't elevate you. Yeah.

[Rich Roll]

I think what's interesting about the CGM is I think we need to be cautious as consumers about reading too much into these spikes because I think it makes people think like, oh, it should never spike, or that if it is spiking, it's bad. And I think as a general rule, maybe you can infer some basic guidelines around how to live your life and what to eat and what not to eat. And I think it is interesting when you eat certain foods and thinking it's not going to spike like the Beyond Burger and it does that, there's some information there that can be useful to you. But I think we're just starting to learn about the relationship between how blood glucose goes up and down and, and how that relates to like, diet and lifestyle choices that we're making. And I don't think it's as simple as, well, this food made me made it spike, so I should never eat that food. Food. I think there's a lot more going on there and we just have to be a little more cautious as the scientists continue to look at what's relevant and what's not.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Do you look at all at like, forget David Sinclair's company Inside Tracker? I think that's accurate. But have you ever had your biological age, not your chronological age, but your Biological age measured?

[Rich Roll]

I haven't, no. But inside tracker just came and took blood from me because they're. I think they're gonna. We're looking at them to. To be a sponsor of the podcast. So I have yet to, like, dive deep into. When I get the test back, I'll dive into that. But is that the one that does the biological clock or is that just about your blood work?

[Tom Bilyeu]

No, I think that is the one that does the biological clock. And we have the youngest person biologically by their. Whatever they're measuring telomere. I actually don't know what they look at, but whatever they look at is the guy that was. He's not vegetarian now, but he was vegetarian for a very, very, very long time. So He's, I think 23, but his biological age is 18.

[Rich Roll]

And he. You mean he works here? He works for you?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Oh, he's literally right over there as we speak.

[Rich Roll]

And what, what is David's biological age? It's like 38 or something.

[Tom Bilyeu]

David is. David, who actually is, what, 25, is probably 46, because he. Oh, David Sinclair, you mean? I thought you're talking about our David, who's also on the other side of that Wall, who eats KitKats for breakfast. He's gonna be dead in an hour. But yes, Sinclair is several years below whatever his real age is.

[Rich Roll]

I think he's 53.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I think he might be like 35

[Rich Roll]

or something stupid like that.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, whatever he's doing is working. He looks amazing. But even going beyond that, like, so again for me, the mechanism, once I understood, like, okay, red meat is triggering mtor, then I could begin to sort of understand, okay, that's putting me in a growth mode, then I can understand why I. Great. But that this may not be good for longevity and that in David's words, you actually want a little bit of a hermetic response. And so by going plant based, he categorizes that as this slight stressor on your body and that the more stressed out the plants were when they were harvested, the better it actually is for you. And I don't know if that's through the polyphenols or whatever, but that all gets so interesting. And the idea that we've co evolved with these plants, plants and man, if you want to know, like, do plants have impacts on our biology? You need to only do, you know, drugs, basically, to see the kind of incredible effect. And so the thought that, you know, plants are creating these compounds to either incentivize something to eat them, if it's Fruit and they want you to, you know, carry their seeds to other locations or stop you from eating it in terms of, you know, whether it's bitter taste or hallucinogenic effects. Like, that's crazy.

[Rich Roll]

It is pretty crazy. It is pretty crazy. And the truth is, people think like, oh, if I go plant based, it's going to be so limiting. But what they don't understand is, like, well, before you're basically eating pizza and cheeseburgers and, and like chicken wings or, you know, it's like pretty limited.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Right, right.

[Rich Roll]

But then if you're really open to, like, the plant kingdom, suddenly, like a whole world of possibility opens up to you. So I would encourage you to sample and try all of the amazing. You know, there's so many plants out there to cook with and to enjoy. And I think the process of just treating it like a fun adventure takes a lot of the, you know, I don't know, pressure or intensity out of it. And you just look at it like a fun learning experience. And I think through the course of doing that, you'll. You'll find new foods that you love that make you feel good and you'll realize these other things that I thought were good for me don't agree with me. And it's just a constant iteration and refinement process. And you can always go back to doing what you were doing before.

[Tom Bilyeu]

No doubt. Yeah, that doesn't scare me in terms of if it doesn't land or whatever, we're fine. But I really am interested, interested in longevity. And so I'm willing to experiment with some pretty crazy things. And it's going to add. So what I want to do, what I should do is get tested for my biological age and then go on this odyssey of, you know, diving into a more plant forward. I don't know that I'll go full vegetarian and I almost certainly will not go vegan. But doing that as a more controlled experiment, Wear a continuous glucose monitor. Do a test at the beginning, do a test at the end and see how it goes. That'll be really interesting to see.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have a guy coming on my podcast soon called Mike Fremont. He just turned 100. Whoa. He's been plant based forever. And he goes out and runs marathons and ultra marathons. And he set like world records.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Ultra Marathons at 100.

[Rich Roll]

I don't know the last time he's done. I don't want the longest one. I should be careful. I don't want to misspeak. I know that he's Breaking world records in distance running right now.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Like he's age.

[Rich Roll]

For his age. Yeah, for his age.

[Tom Bilyeu]

God damn.

[Rich Roll]

I mean, the crowd gets thin up there, but just the fact that he goes out and gets after it and he's like racing. He's literally 100 years old.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Wow. I can't wait to talk to him. Yeah, very impressive.

[Rich Roll]

He's been plant based forever.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Do you find him through the plant based community?

[Rich Roll]

I had a guy on the show called Harvey Lewis, who's 45 right now, has been plant based forever and is having the most epic year as an ultra marathoner. He's won Badwater two times.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Whoa. I know what bad water is.

[Rich Roll]

He's won bad water twice. And he just won this thing called Big's Backyard Ultra, which is a race in which you do a four mile loop on the hour, every hour. Everybody does four miles. And then when the hour's up, you do another four miles and you just keep going. And people drop off when they can't make the time cutoff for the 4 mile loop and you go until nobody's left. And he ran 350 miles over like 80 hours or something like that.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Oh, my God.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah. Unessentially no sleep and he's 45. And anyway, Mike Fremont is like his buddy and he, when he came on the show, he's like, you got to meet Mike. He's unbelievable. Yeah, I was like, he's unbelievable. You're unbelievable.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I was gonna say. Yeah.

[Rich Roll]

Four.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Four miles an hour for 80 hours.

[Rich Roll]

Yeah, that's been. He's a high school teacher in Cincinnati.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Do we know what the longest distance anyone has ever run without stopping?

[Rich Roll]

No. I mean, technically, that race, they're stopping. Why? Because, well, you run four miles and then you stop and you. And you start again on the hour.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Right, right, right.

[Rich Roll]

So tech, but I mean, it's a continuous race. Once you get up into those distances, though, like people are walking, they're running, they're stopping for a minute. Like it's not running like you would think of it.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah.

[Rich Roll]

So it depends on how you define stopping, I suppose, but 354 miles in a race context is the longest that anyone's kind of run. Yeah. Before that, no one had broken. Because this race has been going on for a little while. No one had broken 300 miles. He came close like the year or two before, but it was just him and this Japanese guy and neither of them would quit. And it's that thing where it's like, even after they got to 300 miles, like pushing each other to go way beyond anything anybody ever thought possible. Possible. It's cool.

[Tom Bilyeu]

That is bananas. Yeah, that is bananas. Well, Rich, thank you so much for coming on today, man. This was a lot of fun. And speaking of pushing each other, I watch your podcast. It's absolutely incredible. Everybody should definitely be watching it. In fact, where should people connect with you?

[Rich Roll]

Thank you for that and right back at you. I think what you're doing here is incredible. So it's really an honor to come and sit down and talk to you. You can find everything that I [e-mail] we're on YouTube and all the podcast players of Rich Roll podcast. And I'm at Rich Roll on all the social stuff.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And get that Shrimu.

[Rich Roll]

Get Srimu.com S R I M U dot com. It's a subscription box model, so anyone who wants to check it out, you can find it on the website. If you're in Los Angeles, you can find it at Erewhon, but everyone else, you can order online.

[Tom Bilyeu]

There it is. Do it. My highest recommendation, truly.

[Rich Roll]

For sure. Julie will be thrilled.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Nice. All right, guys, that's it. I hope you enjoyed it. If you haven't already, be sure to subscribe. And until next time, my friends, be legendary. Take care. Peace.