← Tom Bilyeu's Impact Theory
Tom Bilyeu's Impact Theory
Embracing Endings: James Sexton on Life, Death, Love, and Powerful Relationship Negotiation | Part 2
00:56:18
Loading summary
Transcript53 lines
- [00:02]
Jim Sexton
Looking for the perfect rental? Discover top rated stays loved by guests. Rated highest by real guests through authentic reviews. These traveler loved stays are recognized by the details that matter most and validated by real experiences. Choose confidently from rentals you can trust. VRBO Book now a vacation rental loved by guests.
- [00:29]
Commercial Announcer
If you work in university maintenance, Grainger considers you an MVP because your playbook ensures your arena is always ready for tip off. And Grainger is your trusted partner, offering the products you need all in one place, from H vac and plumbing supplies to lighting and more. And all delivered with plenty of time left on the clock. So your team always gets the win. Call 1-800-GRAINGER visit grainger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.
- [01:01]
Interviewer
Welcome back to part two of this incredible conversation. Without further ado, here we go. What's the most controversial thing that you believe? That you're like, oh God, this one
- [01:13]
Jim Sexton
is so true, but it gets canceled. Why keep people up? Is this the. Is this.
- [01:17]
Interviewer
You'll never get canceled. You're too good at what you do.
- [01:19]
Jim Sexton
I know. That's the best thing about it. Thank God. I have to tell you, thank God I have a profession I'm really good at because it's the only way I haven't gotten killed for the stuff that I say. Because, you know, early on in my career, some of my colleagues are not. Early on in my media career, I should say. Like, I was already very established attorney for the last 25 years and I only really started the media thing like two years ago. And some of my colleagues were like, are you, are you afraid this is going to screw up your legal brand? I was like, not at all. Like, I'm just great in a courtroom. Like, that's at the end of the day, like, people don't care. Like, if I listen, I'm like a progressive person, but if I needed like a very specialized surgery and they said, look, this guy, he's the best guy in the world at this surgery, but he's racist. I'd be like, I want him to do this surgery. Like, I want to have dinner with him. I'm not friends with him. Like, is he really good at the surgery? Cool. Like, just do the surgery, man. Like, the same thing for me. Like, I don't worry about. But the hottest take I have on relationship, it's all going to be gender based stuff. Because gender stuff is so fraught right now. It's so fraught right now. Well, it is crazy to me, but I get it. I don't like really, you don't get it?
- [02:20]
Interviewer
I think it is absurd. I think people are shooting themselves in the face or to use your language, they're stepping on the race take over and over and over.
- [02:27]
Jim Sexton
But you don't think that it was born of good intentions? Like, I really believe that some of this stuff was born of good intentions.
- [02:32]
Interviewer
Fine. I literally don't care. My thing is what works.
- [02:36]
Jim Sexton
So yeah, yeah, yeah, you're, you're, I get that you're like outcome focused and you're also like, I want to look at the truth. I don't want to like what I wish was true. Like, I don't live in the should, like, oh, well, it shouldn't be this way. Okay, whatever. It shouldn't be like, it is, this is what it is, you know, So I totally get that. But I think we have to if we're going to like function as a culture. Maybe it's because I argue for a living. I'm very interested in understanding why other people feel the way they feel. Like people I vigorously disagree with. Like, I want to understand where we diverge. I want to understand, like, because I genuinely believe, like, if you were right, I would agree with you. You know, and I want to believe that, like, you know, there's, I don't, I don't know that. I don't believe that like people are evil. I think that people aren't evil. They do evil things because they mistake it for happiness. But I don't think that they do it like insidiously, nefariously. Like, I think they're shortsighted. I think they, they don't realize what the second order effects are going to be.
- [03:33]
Interviewer
They very impressed that you do what you do for a living and are able to hold that. I think some people are evil, but that's a frame of referencing. You're going somewhere with the gender thing.
- [03:42]
Jim Sexton
Yeah, I think gender, Look, I think, I think if we went back to a very traditional economic structure in this country where women were at home and men were working, it would be better for the divorce rate. We would not have as many divorces. I think that a function of late capitalism was let's get women into the workforce as quickly as possible. Two is better than one. Two economic cogs in the machine is better than one. And by the way, they didn't sell it that way. They sold it properly. They sold it as, why? Why can't your mom be a doctor? She has the right to be a doctor. Why couldn't your dad be a stay at home dad, like, you have a right to this. And by the way, same thing with the gender stuff. Like, same thing with the gender stuff. Like, why, why, why does it have to be such clear lines as to how all men have to be. You said it yourself a minute ago. You have some feminine things in you. So you're already meeting in the middle. She has some mascul center. So we're acknowledging there's a spectrum, and we're acknowledging that there are masculine and feminine, and we're acknowledging that it doesn't have to be rigid lines, that there should be some movement between this. You can have a little more of this, a little less of this. So we know that. So why would we. Like I understand the way we sold it to the world was to say, hey, why are we putting people in prisons? We all have masculine and feminine in us. And so maybe gender is just like a spectrum and a construct. Okay, you've overcorrected now. Like, gender means nothing. Biology means there's no such thing even as biological sex. And, you know, like, that's garbage and we've lost that plot completely. I think if we could figure that out again, ideally, without overcorrecting back in the other direction.
- [05:31]
Interviewer
Now, some people are going to hear that and say, well, it'll be better for the divorce rate because a woman can't take care of herself, and so she's going to stay in the marriage just because she's trapped. I assume that's you control for that.
- [05:41]
Jim Sexton
No, you. I mean, listen, maybe you have universal basic income. Maybe you have some other metric that creates, like, the ability. Because I agree that there's something to that. Like, that if you have, you know, I've worked with victims of, of intimate partner abuse, coercive control, domestic violence, who are, like, economically or socially trapped in a marriage. And, you know, I've. I've been there. I've done that. So I certainly think, like, finance can be a weapon. You know, you can certainly weaponize someone's economic need in a. In a real way. I mean, but that's not what you mean.
- [06:10]
Interviewer
So why do you think it would be better for marriage if we had. And you're not?
- [06:14]
Jim Sexton
Well, no, what I'm saying. Let's separ the two things. What I'm saying is I think that if people were allowed to engage their natural state as men and women without shame, like, so if a woman could say, yeah, I just want to stay home and have babies and, like, keep the home fire burning, and a man could say, yeah, I don't really want to, like, do babies. Like, is my thing. I want to, like, get out there and work. I want to, like, get out there and bend the world to my will. Like, I enjoy that. Like, I want to, like, you know, fight the fight. And that wasn't a dirty word. I think we would find some satisfaction. I think a lot more of us would be a lot happier. I think we've created a system that is serving no one's needs right now. Like, I think everyone feels lost. Like, whatever you're doing, you think you're doing it wrong. Like, I don't know very many women that understand what's expected of them anymore. And I think they actually also, if they're being honest. And I. You know, people lie to their therapist, but they don't lie to their divorce lawyer as often. They'll say, like, yeah, when I'm with my kids, I. I feel like I'm failing at work. When I'm at work, I feel like I'm failing my kids. Like, I just can't get anything right, you know? Whereas there was a time where a man was like, yeah, I'm at work. Like, that's where I'm supposed to be. Like, that's my role. Like, it's simple, it's clear, it's clean. Like, I know what's expected of me. Like, doesn't everything want to know what's expected of it? Doesn't everyone thrive better under conditions where, you know, you. You know what you're supposed to do that day? And that way you can say, like, oh, I did it right or, I did it wrong, or, I'm successful or fail. Like, there's no way anymore. There's no gauge anymore of success. It's really become, like, even if you're incredibly successful economically, yeah, but you're, like, spiritually bankrupt. Well, I'm spiritually rich. Yeah, but you're not economically rich. Like, whatever metric, you're failing at some other metric, because that's how it works. So I. That is the broader problem, and it's wildly antagonistic to marriage. I. I think that's a take that I have that is potentially controversial because it's tied to gender stuff. My other big thing is, I. I don't think that people's children should be their highest accomplishment. I think we've created a culture where everybody's like, my proudest accomplishment is my kids. That seems very strange to me and actually quite sick, because growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of a virus or a cancer cell. Like, let's play this theory out. If the most important thing I'll ever do is have children, what's the most important thing my children will ever do? Have children. Like, okay, and the most important thing their children will do to be have children. So, okay, so the highest calling is to reproduce. And reproduction is the goal in and of itself. Like it's the highest thing is to, to fulfill the biological imperative to take this half formed thing that comes out of a woman like that. You better hope whatever meets you on the other side is going to help because we're helpless when we're born. So we're going to take this half formed thing, we're going to turn it into something that's self sustaining and that fulfills the biological can reproduce itself.
- [09:21]
Commercial Announcer
Great.
- [09:22]
Jim Sexton
So that's it. That's the goal. That's why we're here. That's the whole thing. That's crazy to me. So then why have we structured it that if you say anything other than, well, the day my children were born was the greatest day. My children are my greatest accomplishment. That, that is somehow profanity, if I was to say, yeah, my greatest accomplishment was like becoming so good at my craft and feeling such success at it. What about being a father? Yeah, I love being a father. It's really, really fun. It was like a really cool thing I got to do and I'm doing and it's great. And I learned a lot about myself from it. And I think I added some value to the world by these two wonderful men that I helped build. Like, but I don't know that it was like the most rewarding experience. By the way, that's my preference. What business is that of yours that I, you know that? Yeah, I liked that. Like, I like apples. So why do you hate oranges? I don't hate. I didn't say that. I said I like apples. Is that I wasn't like making metrics on fruit. By the way, if I don't like oranges, what is it? Go enjoy all the oranges you want. Like, go make your children the great. Because when I said I dared to say, I think it was on, on Diary of a CEO, I dared to say, yeah, you know, I don't think having children should be like, you know, I don't understand that being like people's highest accomplishment in life. Oh my God, you to think that I said I should be allowed to expose my genitals to children in public. Like, it was crazy. It was. The reaction was my child. How dare you. Mustn't have Your children. I'm like, all I dared say there is that, like, in the. In the value. Like, yeah, this was great. It was lovely. But I don't know that it's the only purpose. There has to be some higher, nobler purpose of life. Whether it's. I don't know, if you want to believe it's to glorify God. If you want to believe it's to build things that will last after you're gone. I don't really know who you believe it is. I mean, I'm not a nihilist, but I don't think the purpose of dancing is to move from one point of the floor to another. The purpose of dancing is to dance. It's just to feel the thing, to experience something that's going to end and the song will end and the dancing will stop and you can't hold on to it. It was an experience. It was a moment. It was a thing you did. Like, what's the point of listening to music? I don't know. It's just beautiful. It just feels good. You're part of something. You feel like you're part of something bigger. You're in touch with something. Emotionally, I think life is, you know, we're experiencing something. Like we're here to just move through and experience something, and it's impermanent. And, you know, I don't know that we can know the meaning. That's how I feel about God. Like, I think it's a form of hubris to think you could understand God. Like, if there isn't, is a God. Yeah, I believe in something. I. I don't. I mean, do I think, like, when people say, like, God. Well, he. You believe God has a penis, like, you called him. He. You think he has external genitalia. Like, how big is it then? Like, I. That makes no sense to me. Like, you don't actually mean God's a man. Because I don't think you think God has a penis. And is it covered or is he, like, wearing a loincloth? Like, what. What is God? So really, what you're saying is, I think that there is some force, some. Some conscious omnipotent creator deity that occasionally writes books and talks to us and. But stopped recently, you know? Okay, so you believe that, right? And by the way, you believe that if you plead to him, that he will intervene. So even though he created the entire known universe and every single thing that is happening, he set into motion because you prayed very hard. He cured your child's cancer, the cancer he Gave your child. Like, to me that seems a little strange. Like, what's easier for me personally to digest is if something, some. For some thing could create the entire known universe and is infinite. To think that I, an ape, right, could understand that thing is like hubris. Like, it's crazy. Like, I. There's. I don't understand, like complex math. Like I can't memorize, like certain sets of numbers with. Like, if you tell me your phone number now, I'll forget it in 30 seconds. Like so. And I think I'm going to be able to understand the nature of an omnipotent creator deity that created the known universe, but also was eternal. Eternal. Like so to me, like the question of. Do you believe in God? Yeah, I have a feeling there's something. I have a feeling that there's no reason to be afraid. You know, I was a hospice volunteer for many years. Like, I'm very comfortable around death. I've spent a lot of time with death. And I see it like we've done a terrible disservice to people by distracting them and hiding death from them. Like we live in a world where death is just. It happens behind closed doors. You don't get to see it. How many times you've been in a room when someone died. Like, I've been in a room a lot of times when people die. Like, I was a vigil volunteer for a number of years.
- [14:26]
Interviewer
Why seek that out?
- [14:28]
Jim Sexton
It's the most life affirming experience I think you could have. It's incredible. It's an incredible reminder of, I think that our society is designed to distract you from the fact that you're gonna die. Because if you thought really and internalized the fact that you're gonna die, you wouldn't pay attention to the meaningless shit that keeps the machine mo moving. Like, you would just stop buying a lot of what they're selling. I think that we deny death because it's a great mystery. We're terrified of it. And we culturally just reaffirm it over and over by hiding it from people.
- [15:06]
Interviewer
Taking a short break. But there's more impact theory after. Stay tuned.
- [15:10]
Commercial Announcer
If you work in university maintenance, Grainger considers you an MVP because your playbook ensures your arena is always ready for tip off. And Grainger is your trusted partner, offering the products you need all in one place, from H VAC and plumbing supplies to lighting and more. And all delivered with plenty of time left on the clock. So your team always gets the win. Call 1-800-GRAINGER visit grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.
- [15:41]
Interviewer
Thanks for staying tuned. Now, let's get back to it.
- [15:45]
Jim Sexton
Here's a hot take. I think when you turn 18, you should have to do a year or two of mandatory hospice volunteering.
- [15:52]
Interviewer
Damn.
- [15:53]
Jim Sexton
I think if you spent time with the terminal ill when you were 18, 19 years old, you would. You would. It would change your. It changed my entire way of viewing
- [16:02]
Interviewer
the world because they gave you a glimpse into the finiteness, and that changes
- [16:07]
Jim Sexton
how you view it. You just realize that just there's so much of this shit doesn't matter. Like, spend time with people that are dying. They don't. They don't really. All their stuff is a great big pile of nothing. Like, all that they can talk about is, like, the people that they love, the connections that they made, the experiences that they had that were beautiful or painful. Like, they. And you. When you're around them, like, you could have a lot of stuff going on in your day, but I would do, like, a hospice visit. And by the way, like, as a hospice volunteer, you don't, like, sit and talk about, you know, how are you feeling about the fact you're dying. Very rarely did anybody want to talk about the fact that. That they were dying. That was just a. That was a reality they couldn't deny. They were in a hospital bed in their. In their living room a lot of the time. Like, they wanted to talk about their life. They wanted to talk about what's going on with the Yankees. They wanted to talk about, like, other things. They wanted to be alive, you know, And. And a lot of times, what you do as hospice volunteers, you just are there. You're just of service. You're like, I'll. I'll do the dishes. I'll take out the trash. Like, I do the grocery shopping for you, whatever. Like, I just want to be of service. Like, you're dealing with this big thing. Let me help with some of these other things. But I would walk out of every single hospice visit, and I was like a. I was like a samurai. Like, I was like a Zen monk. Like, I could hear the rain because I was like, I don't have esophageal cancer. Like, all the other stuff going on in my life right now, I don't have that. Like, I don't have what's going on behind that door. Right here on a street, just like the street you live on, there's a house where someone right now is like, they're dying. Like, their father is dying, their mother's dying. Like, this is it. This is it. And everything else falls away. All the bullshit falls away. All the things that were so important five minutes ago when you got that diagnosis or you got told, we can't do anything more. Like, when my mom had her last cancer surgery before she passed away 10 years ago, they had said, this is going to be about a 12 hour surgery. And there's going to be a team of surgeons working because there's different spots we have to. So we like, tucked in at the waiting room at Sloan Kettering, we're like, okay, we're going to be here a really long time. Twenty minutes later, they came in and they said, it's like a bomb went off. Like the cancer is everywhere. We opened her up, we closed her up. There's nothing we can do. And in that moment, all of the other things that I was stressed about and worried about and all that, the volume was turned so far down on all those things because my mom was going to die. And all that became important was, how can I spend a little more time with her? How can I make sure she knows I love her? How can I savor this. This wonderful thing? Which, by the way, you're dying. Like, Lisa's dying. There is a finite number of times you will kiss your wife, you don't know the number, but it's a number. Like, I'll be able to tell you it someday. Like, there's a finite number, though, like, and you won't know until you've crossed over it, until you've passed it, that that was it. That was the last time. Like, and that to me, like, if you don't keep that in your line of sight, you're a fool. You're a fool because you're going to think you get to do that forever. You're going to think you get to do that all the time. And you don't. You will not do that forever. Like, there is a finite number of times. And that's the most beautiful thing in the world. It's what makes that so special is that it's finite. Like, if it lasted forever, like, to live forever would be a curse. Like, being Dracula is a curse, you know? But the truth is, like, she's alive right now. Right now, she's alive. She's in the other room. She's right there. And you get to kiss her as many times as you want to. And isn't that the greatest thing in the world? Like, isn't that the most. You know, Thich Nhat Hanh has this exercise that he says, when you hug someone, you should think about the fact that they're there and you're hugging them. And then you should close your eyes and think that they're dead and you're hugging their dead body before you let it go for the last time. And then you should think about the fact that they're alive and you're hugging them. If you do that, I'm telling you, your whole way of viewing the world will change. And so hospice. For me, being a hospice volunteer was a undeniable glimpse into that reality. And nothing has ever looked the same since. Like, nothing. And by the way, it didn't change until, like, well, now I have to renunciate everything and become a monk. And it. No, no. I just try to live my life in a way that knows, like, every time I say, every single time I text or talk to my sons who are 26 and 28, the last thing I say is, I love you. Even if I'm fighting with them, even if I'm pissed at them, I'll be like, well, you know what? That's ridiculous. All right, I'll talk to you later. I love you. Because I know the last thing I said to them is, I love you always. Because someday that's the last time I said it to them. Like, I have to tell you, as a father, I was in Whole Foods a couple of months ago, and there was a younger man than me, a guy in his 30s, and he was just standing there, and he had, like, that look that like a tired young father has. And he had this little boy with him, his son. And the son was, like, doing with that thing that kids do where he's like, dad, this dad. See this dad. And the guy had the. Look at his face like, oh, my God, please. Like, just want, like, a minute, you know? And he was like, daddy. Daddy. Look at that. Daddy. Did you see Daddy? Can we get some of this, dad? You know, and I. I remember that. Like, I remember that. I remember how exhausting it was. And something in that moment, I actually thought, oh, I'm not Daddy anymore. Like, there was a last time that my sons called me Daddy and then became dad. I've been dad ever since. If you had told me that's the last time when it happened, when they said, like, all right, Daddy, see you later. If you'd said, oh, by the way, that's the last time he's ever going to call you Daddy, like, I would have wept. But. But that had to die for me to become dad. Like, and I really like being dad, you know, It's a really nice thing to be dad. Like, things have to end for the next thing you know, or. Because things have to end. But, like, for me, being a hospice volunteer and being a divorce lawyer, it was. It was the same thing. It's endings. Like, it's all endings. Everything. To me, like, I think we have to look at things from the lens of endings, because everything is ending all the time. Like, it's always ending all the time. And we. We deny that. We hide from it. We run from it. We try to, like, shield it from ourselves and from each other. And I. I think we're doing a tremendous disservice. So, like, to tie it back to marriage, that couple, you know, they're starting the journey together. I would say to them, do you both know you're going to lose each other? Like, do you know this is going to end, right? Like, you know this is going to end. It might end next week. One of you might walk out of the house and boom, the satellite falls from the sky and kills you. Like, people die all the time for no reason, no readily discernible reason. Maybe if we started with that. Like, if you knew this is the last day you'd get to spend with your wife, you would not be talking to me, man. You wouldn't be. Well, you know what it could be. God, I hope it's not. But, man, it could be. Like, one day is gonna be that day, man. So, like, to me, I don't know. Like, figure. Figure that out. If you figure that out and keep that in your line of sight. Again, I'm not saying you have to, like, renunciate, never go out, because, oh, my God, like, I. You. I could. Like, I have to spend every minute with my spouse because. But just remember that this is not permanently gifted. It's loaned. Your wife's love is loaned to you. Your love is loaned to her. She doesn't own it. She'll never be able to own it. It's not permanent. It's temporary. So feel it. Fully embrace it. See it as the precious thing that it is. See it as the finite thing that it is. Take it seriously. Treat it like something that is going away. And if it has value to you, you would remember to say, like, if you knew this was the last time we were going to talk. There's some things you'd say, you know? And that's what's so great about, like, hospice. It's what's so great. When I knew my mother was dying. You know, we walked out of that hospital, and she started hospice, and she was on hospice for two years. I'd already been a hospice volunteer at that point for quite some time, but it was a very different experience, and it just changed a lot of things. It didn't really matter that we disagreed about some things politically and that we didn't have a perfect relationship. I was a hard person to have as a son. She was not a perfect mom. Like, it didn't really matter. Like, we loved each other. Like, you know, she did the best she could do, and I did the best that I could do. And, like, all that really mattered at that moment was, like, do you know I love you? Do you know that? Like, I'm good. Like, you'll be gone, but, like, I'm good. You built this thing. Like, you built this amazing thing, you know? And, like, I'm so happy. My life is so good. Like, so if your goal was to, like, do a good job on that, you did. You did a great job on that. Like, and that, to me, like, when, you know I'm only gonna have, like, four or five more conversations with this person, like, that's it. They're slipping away. You can feel it. But, man, like, you only have the conversations that matter at that point. And I just think. I don't know. We're just so. You want a hot take? Like, we're so ungrateful. Like, we're so ungrateful. Like, we could just. We should wake up every single day and just be so grateful, man, we woke up today. I've got this body. It works really well. Like, I've got people in my life who love me and who I love. Like, and I. I get to spend another day interacting with them in some fashion. Like, I get to eat delicious food and breathe clean air. Like, this is. Like, these are. But again, like, the machine is constantly telling me that, like, I'm doing it wrong and that there's other things I should be chasing. And look, I get it. Like, it's cool to chase other things and stuff like that, but come on, man. Like, come on. Like, every single thing you own, some points can be on. Like, the junk heap doesn't mean anything. Like, what really means something, I believe, is, like, the deep connections and love we feel. Like, when you look back on your life, like, it's just a series of moments where you felt loved and where you loved someone. Like, it's everything. It's everything. Like, I'm a divorce lawyer. Like, people imagine me to be, like, the grim reaper of love and marriage. Like, and fundamentally, like, I think I'm the total opposite of that. Like, I am. Being around endings has made me so unbelievably grateful for the core thing, which is love and connection, to feel love. Because I think our biggest fear is that we're not worthy of love, that we don't deserve love, that the people who love us, they don't really know us. If they knew us, they wouldn't love us. They would know that we're just a mess, you know? But the truth is, like, it's not true. Like, if you said to me, Tom, like, off camera, Jim, like, I know I seem like I got it together, but, like, I'm a mess, man. I feel like a mess. Like, I'm so weak sometimes. I make mistakes all the time. I'm short sighted, I'm pessimistic, I'm whatever. I would. I'd be like, thanks for letting me know, man. You suck. I'm not talking anymore. No, I'd be like, hey, Tom, man, don't be so hard on yourself. What are you doing? Like, it's okay. You're human. We're all human. It's okay. Like, you're human, you know? Okay, well, if there was someone in your life who. Who talked to Lisa the way you talk to yourself in your brain, you'd beat the shit out of that guy. Like, I know that's true of me. Like, if someone. If someone. We're like, you know, we're not best friends, you and I, but we're friends like you. If. If someone talked to you the way I talked to myself in my head, I would be like, dude, you're out of order. Like, you don't know Tom. You don't know everything he's been through. You don't have a right to judge because I am brutal to myself. Like, I get up in the morning, I'm like, what are you doing, dude? Get out of bed, get it going. And, like, get to the gym. Like, you're weak. You're getting old. What do you do? Come on. Like, all I do is beat myself up. And so, you know, again, like, I think that's all the framing. That's all the. Like, we've been taught to criticize ourselves constantly. We've been taught to take our eye off the plot. Like, you and Lisa, the thing you're doing well is you. You don't lose the plot. Like, I can tell that about you. It's obvious. Talking to either of you about the other. Like, the Two of you, you try to not lose the plot. Like, you're paying attention to the thing you're building. You have this shared goal and shared purpose. And you know what? We are playing a game. You can't win to the utmost. Like, we're just playing this game. Like, we're all gonna die. We're all gonna lose each other. Everything we built will crumble. A hundred years from now. Everyone who loves you will be gone, and everyone you love will be gone. But it's like our immediate response to that is, well, I'm not gonna think about that. That's terrible. That's a why. That should be the most liberating, freeing thought in the world. It should be the most important thought in the world. And I guess that's why I keep. You know, you have a divorce letter. I talk about relationships, and I start talking about death. But I think it's partly because, like, yeah, it's endings. Like, divorce is an ending. You know, death is an ending. And I think we need to look harder at endings. And it will. The path of staying together will be clearer to us because we won't lose the plot so easily.
- [30:29]
Interviewer
We're hitting pause for a moment, but there's plenty more ahead, so don't go anywhere. Thanks for sticking around. Let's get right back into the action. I think you're very right about that. Reminding yourself how transient things are, I think is incredibly important. There's something very interesting, though, about the way that you approach the world. So obviously, going through all of that and hearing how thoughtful you've been about recognizing the ending of something, grabbing a hold of gratitude, recognizing what a problem that is. And I've also heard you say that you put a ton of time and energy into being great at what you do, and you refer to yourself as a weapon. And the fascinating thing about spending as much time researching you as I have is that you can swing all the way from. I mean, what you've just done here. Obviously, very emotive. I've heard you talk about your dog. Yeah. I mean, it's all incredibly beautiful. But then I've also heard you talk about being a weapon.
- [31:26]
Jim Sexton
Yeah.
- [31:26]
Interviewer
It's like, hey, I am here to do a job, and I'm going to do it to the best of my ability.
- [31:31]
Jim Sexton
Yeah. It.
- [31:32]
Interviewer
What is the. The container in which. Yeah, all of those. I won't say competing, but those different facets of your personality.
- [31:40]
Jim Sexton
Yeah.
- [31:41]
Interviewer
Live inside. It's not. It's not living inside of a strong sense of there's a God or religion, but it's living inside of something.
- [31:50]
Jim Sexton
Yeah, I don't, you know, I think I have a moral sense, but I think, you know, there's a. There's a line from Risus Sardonicus that I used to have hanging on the wall of my office. And it goes to that weapon side of me, and it is. I used to have it memorized. I think I probably still do. He said that I have resigned myself to temporary complicity with evil in order to accomplish certain strategic objectives for people whose safety is more important than my need to maintain moral purity. Damn. So I realize I have a set of skills. Like, I'm. I'm a very good advocate. I'm a very good weapon. Like, I can use words to make you cry. I can use words to make you scared. I can use words to make you feel safe. Like, I'm good at words because that's the weapon. That's all I have was words and gestures and, you know, like, whatever. I'm a good storyteller. My job is full contact storytelling. Like, it's hard enough to be a good storyteller, but be a good storyteller while someone else is trying to stop you from telling the story and tell the opposite story. Like, then you've got to be really good, you know, and. And I don't know why. I have a God given talent at this. Like, I'm good at it. I'm really good in a courtroom. I'm good at this very strange amalgam of skills you have to have to extemporaneously speak in this very specific kind of way. Plus, I'm really good. I've memorized the rules of evidence. Like, I'm, you know, I have a very weird, specific skill set that to me, I feel like I want to be of service while I'm here. I don't know. It's this. I feel the most fulfilled when I'm of service. Like, I. Whether it was as a hospice volunteer.
- [33:37]
Interviewer
How old were you when you were doing that?
- [33:40]
Jim Sexton
18. I just gotten out of. So, I mean, there's a little context there. When I was about 6 years old, maybe 5 years old, my mom was first diagnosed with leiomyosarcoma, which is a soft tissue sarcoma. It's very rare. It's a cancer that does not typically become metastatic in any way, but it grows very rapidly. So the first time that she was diagnosed with it, when they found it, it was the size of a dime. And when they took it out of three weeks later, it was the size of a grapefruit.
- [34:14]
Interviewer
Whoa.
- [34:15]
Jim Sexton
Yeah. And it doesn't cause necrosis when it touches tissue. But the way Murray Brennan, who was one of she. He did about four of her surgeries at Sloan Kettering. Great surgeon. Great guy. The way he described it to us is, he said, it's kind of like a cow standing in the middle of the road. Like, at first, everybody can drive around it, but it gets bigger and bigger and bigger, and it starts to take up the whole highway, and now everything's crashing into it. So that's what would happen. Like. So when I was about five or six years old, I remember my mom crying in the bathroom, and I didn't know what was going on. And my sister was six years older than me, told me that mom is sick and that she's going to die. And I didn't exactly know what that meant. I had a gerbil named Cutie, and he had died. And I knew that that meant, like, okay, you're not going to see him anymore. But I didn't really know what that, like, meant, the gravity of it. And. And they. They told her, and they told us that she had six months to live. And then they went in to do the surgery, and the tumor had encapsulated, meaning white blood cells had surrounded it and encapsulated, so it didn't grow very much. And they were able to. It grew, grew, but it hadn't impeded anything. They took it out. She was fine. But at the age of six, I was told, your mom's got six months to live. And I didn't really understand what that meant. But when it happened again when I was 11, and now they said, okay, she's got six months to live. And this time it had impinged on her uterus and her ovaries. So they had to take her uterus and her ovaries. Well, over the course of the next 15 years or so, my mom ended up having, like, five or so every five or six months, they would tell us she had six months to live. And they would do a surgery, and they would take another piece of her. They would take part of her bowel. They would take part of her, and it was. It took her away from us because she was just constantly recovering from surgery, recovering from chemo. Like, it was just. Death was just ever present. It was always there. And so I think that I just. I was just very. I couldn't deny death. It was just always there. And so I wasn't. You know, I wasn't. I wanted to Move towards it. I didn't want to run from it. Like, I was afraid of spiders. I didn't like spiders. And by the way, it's really, if you're going to be afraid of something, be afraid of spiders rather than death. Because everyone you know is going to die and you're going to die. But spiders you could kind of stay away from if you wanted to, you know. But I was the opposite. I was weird. I was like, okay, I'm afraid of spiders. I'm going to get a tarantula and I'm going to put it in a glass tank right next to my bed. So the first thing that happens every morning when I wake up is I have to look at a giant spider. And it worked. I'm not afraid of spiders anymore. Like, if I see a house spider now, it like crawls my hand. I put it on a plant or whatever. I wanted to do the same thing with death. I was like, I'm just going to be around this. I want to be around this. I want to not be afraid of it. And I started doing it. I found it very life affirming, to the point where then I did what's called vigil volunteering, which is when. When people don't have family and they're in like a nursing home or a facility and they're imminently dying, meaning they're like unconscious. Because, you know, we have this insane. Because we, we don't spend any time with people that are dying. We have this bizarre Hollywood version of death where it's like, I loved you all. And then we like fall, you know, or like we just like fall asleep. And it's. Death does not look like that. Like people, you know, like it's, it's. And. And when you talk to people who have a dying family member on hospice, like, they're like, oh, it's not that they died. They died without dignity. And it's like, oh, he died the way people die. Like you. They shut down. The machine doesn't know to stop. It keeps going. Yeah, it's rough. Oh, please. My mom. Like, I remember thinking like, oh God, is this how I'm gonna remember her? Like 70 pounds, yellow and curled up like an insect, unconscious and breathing in this, like, horrifying. Like something out of a movie. Thank God the answer is no. Like, that's not how you remember. Memory is kind. Like, that was a moment. It was hard to watch. It was hard to be there for. But she died the way people die. Like people with cancer die that way, you know? And that's like, that's natural. And you would know it if you had the opportunity to be around it. And I, I had a tremendous comfort in knowing, like, oh yeah, this is how it goes. Like, I know what an agonal breath sounds like. But when you're a visual volunteer, like, I would just go and just sit in a room, usually the overnight shift, and I would sit there for five, six hours and I would read Winnie the Pooh out loud to like a person who's probably unconscious and can't hear me. But it was just something to read. It was something like, I didn't want to read something religious because I don't know this person's religious feelings. I would read like some nice story, something warm, something. And like Winnie the Pooh felt like that to me. And I just, you know, being around that so much, I don't know if it really changed the way that I view things, but I just never, I don't know. I wanted to be of service. I continue to want to be of service. I have a skill set. I figured it out in high school when I joined the debate team, that I'm good at debate. And I thought, how can I use what I do to be of service? It was never for. I'm very glad I've been blessed financially and I do really well. But like, I just love the game. Like, I love what I do. I'm really good at it. I love being really good at something and I love using my skills to the service of people. At some point in the not too distant future, I will probably stop representing private clients and we'll probably start working for like a non profit agency just doing like domestic violence cases pro bono or something like that. Like, I've already taken some steps to, to, to set that up for myself because I think I'll always enjoy being in a courtroom and doing the thing, but I'm increasingly enjoying, you know, talking about big things with people. And I've been very blessed to have this. Like, I didn't seek this out. Like, I really didn't. I sort of stumbled into this, this whole media presence thing. Like, I never thought at 50 that all of a sudden I'd be like walking down the street and be like, oh my God, you're that guy. Like, and it's like I've become something of people to take a selfie with me. I'm like, there's way better use of your phone than that. But you know, it's, it's a really. I think there is something I, I Didn't get it because I, I'm me, so I don't really see me as clearly. But there's something I'm saying that is resonating with a very large audience, and it's making them feel something or see something that apparently has value to them. And so I'm, I'm doing that, and I'm enjoying that. And I think that that's, that's what hospice work was for me, too. It was like, yeah, this makes me feel something. This makes me feel like I'm of service. I'm serving some purpose. That's a bigger purpose. I don't know. It's a feeling.
- [41:07]
Interviewer
Speaking of things that have value, negotiating it's a very tricky thing to do. Well, yeah, it's 10x trickier in a relationship because people feel almost icky about it.
- [41:21]
Jim Sexton
Yeah.
- [41:21]
Interviewer
How do you help people approach negotiating when you're talking about things like how frequently we have sex, what position we have sex in, who picks up the laundry.
- [41:33]
Jim Sexton
So I, I, that's a, A great, I think, point of entry. And that is how you ask the question very often dictates the answer. So there's an old joke, I don't know if you've ever heard, that two priests are talking to each other. One's a smoker and the other one's not. And they're debating over smoking, whether, like, you should smoke while you're praying. So they're both, they can't agree. They can't find a chord. So they both agree they're going to write the Pope. So they write the Pope. A couple weeks later, they meet up in the middle of the square. And one of them says, I heard back, I was right. The other one goes, no, no, no, I heard back. I was right. He says, what do you mean? He says, well, I wrote the Pope. And I said, hey, is it okay to smoke while you're praying? And he was like, no, when you're praying, like, pray, pay attention to what you're doing. He's like, well, I wrote him and I said, is it okay to pray while I'm smoking? And he said, yeah, you should pray all the time. Like, pray whenever you can. So I say that to say how you ask the question very often dictates the answer. So the question of why aren't we having sex as much as we used to. You're off to a bad start. You're off to a terrible start. Like, this is not a good negotiation. This is an invitation to feel attacked and to be defensive. That's what that is. Because the way you've parsed this is, you're failing me. You're getting it wrong. Whereas if the entry point was. I love feeling close to you. Like, one of my favorite things about. Remember. You know what I was thinking about yesterday? You remember when we were first dating and we went to that. We got tickets to that thing, and we were staying in that hotel, and we never ended up going to the thing because we were just rolling around in the bed in the hotel. You remember that? Like, now. Okay. Who's not gonna be like, oh, yeah, I remember that. That was really. God, I was so, like, you know what? Like, we haven't done that in so long. Like, I love. I love our, like, physical connection. Like, I love it, man. Like, it's so. I don't know the last time I told you that, but, man, it's so good. I'm so glad. Dude, now we have primed the pump, man. We are ready. Like, now we're gonna have. Because what's this about? I want to be good at this. I want to feel. I want to be good at being your. And I want to want only you. We made an agreement that we're gonna just. We're gonna be each other's sexual outlet. I want to meet your needs sexually, and I want you to meet mine. I don't wanna. Like, I believe and I. I know a little of your marriage. I think you have sex with as many women as you want to.
- [44:14]
Interviewer
That's a cool way to say it.
- [44:15]
Jim Sexton
I think you do. I think you have sex with his. But I think you and Andrew Tate or anybody else in the manuscript have sex with as many women as you want to. And I think that's awesome. Like, I think you have sex with as many women as you want to, and it happens to be one. Like, I murder and rape as many people as I want to, which is zero. Cause I'm not a monster, right? But it's. I don't not do it because it's illegal and I'm afraid I'll get in trouble. No, I don't. I don't do it because, like. So I think ideally, you would want Lisa to only have sex with you because she finds sex with you deeply satisfying. When you've eaten, you're not hungry anymore. So she feels like you guys have sufficient quality and quantity of sex for her needs to be met. That you believe trading variety for depth is good and that you guys feel you've found a real intimate connection together that you couldn't easily Reproduce with someone else. Not. I'd get in trouble. Or, like, well, then we might divorce. If the only thing keeping you from sleeping with other women is the threat of Lisa divorcing you, don't do her any favors, man. Like, I think at the end of the day, like, you guys sleep with as many people as you want to, and it's one. And that's great. That's a beautiful, beautiful thing. But I'm willing to bet that part of that is that you guys have open connection about that, communication about that. You ask questions of, like, hey, if something has changed, if we're having more sex, less sex, we're having different kind of sex I'm having. But again, in the negotiation of it. So the way that you. Because the question was about negotiation. The example I always give is, I don't believe in, like, I believe in radical honesty, but I also believe that, like, sometimes it's good to, like, take a. Take a different route somewhere, like behavior modification. Like, I manipulate people's emotional state for a living. That's my job. Like, courtroom lawyer. That's my job. I want the judge to feel sympathetic towards my client and dislike the other side. I want the other side to feel unsafe. I want him to feel scared. I want my client to feel safe and protected. I want. I want the court reporter to like me. Because then when we call a recess and testimony and they go in the back with the judge, they're gonna go, jim's really good. He's a nice guy. He's a good lawyer, you know? So I want. I want to work everyone's emotional state in that room. So this is my job is to, like, manipulate. That's what I mean when I say I'm a weapon. Like, I'm a weapon. My job is to manipulate everyone's emotional state. Now, I can use my powers for good. I use my powers for evil, but why not leverage some of that in your own relationship? So, you know, if you say to your, like, you have a sexual desire that you're having. I don't know. It's like, not in your current menu of things you and your spouse do, but it's something you want to try, something you want to do. You could say, like, how come we never do Da, da, da, da. Okay, now it's defensive position. This is not a good way to start. You could go without, like, I don't want to say it out loud. It's a little. You know, I feel a little weird about it. You go elsewhere. You go like, hey, you know like, some of the. You know, like, with your wife, you know, there's like, something. Like, it's kind of hard to do certain things with your wife and then look her in the eye, you know? So, okay, maybe that's the approach you take. Or maybe you take, I think, the very healthy approach of like, hey, who we are in bed and who we are in life doesn't have to be the same thing. Like, I. I don't know a lot of women that if you sent them a text that said, you know, you know, I respect you. Right. You know, because in about 20 minutes, when I get home, it's going to seem like I don't. Just for a little while. Like, I think most women would be like, okay, I'm in. That'll be interesting. Like, let's see what that turns into, you know? So, like, I think if your wife said to you, like, listen, I love you, and you're smart and you're great, and we're building a life together and all that, but, like, I kind of am going to objectify you right now. Like, I just. I think you're really hot and I want to have sex with you. Like. Like, dude, I'd be thrilled. I'd be like, okay, this sounds great. Objectify me. I'm sick of being loved for my brain. Like, so, okay, that's all really good stuff. So, again, what's the entry point? Well, be creative, like, and lie a little bit, but. But again, with. With good reason. Like, and the example I always give is say to your. If you said to your wife, like, if there's something you want to try. And you said, oh, my God, the dream. I had a dream about you last night. I can't even look you in the eye. The dream I had about you last night, like, what's she gonna. What was it?
- [48:48]
Interviewer
Right?
- [48:48]
Jim Sexton
What did you say? No, I can't. I. Honestly, I can't. I can't even. I can't even say it out loud. No. What was it? I don't know if it's like, that I ate too much dairy, I don't know, before I went to sleep. Like, I don't know what it was. I just. I was like. And then you say the thing you've been thinking you might want to do, and she's gonna probably react one of two ways. She's either gonna go, is that, like, something you want to try? And then you go, I don't know. Like, I didn't think it was, but maybe it is. Like, something in my brain brought it up and it was kind of hot. Like, okay, and maybe now we're having a dialogue about this. That's the negotiation. Or she's gonna go, oh, I would not be into that. And you go, you know, I know. Like, it's so, like, ugh. Like, I don't know what it was like that, that was what. I mean, it's not that big of a deal to me, or at least we're having a conversation now about it. But again, like, the entry point is from a place of connection. It's from a place of intrigue, it's from a place of storytelling. Like, I'm hooking you. That's the cheese in that trap, Right? But like, again, all for the benefit of this relationship. Like, all for the benefit, because there's no downside to that. Like, to share with your partner what you want and what your desire and what you're feeling. Like in a perfect world, you're absolutely right. You'd just be able to say, like, you know, babe, I've been having this thought lately. And by the way, if you did what I said earlier, where you built into your relationship these, these periodic check ins. And again, like, I, I don't like the idea because I think there is like a measure what matters thing and people that can reduce things to metrics and statistics a little too much. Like, I've seen people like quantify. Like, I represent a lot of quant people and it's almost like they're on the spectrum and they feel like they have to. Everything has to be measured and everything. Like, Brian Johnson, God bless you, buddy. But that life looks miserable to me. Like, I honestly, like, I'm not eating that much kale and I'm not. Like, he eats so many pills, he's full. Like, you can keep it, man. Like, it's okay. Like I said, I'll die sooner. I'm good. Like, I'll die sooner. That's fine. But again, like, what was the purpose of all of this? The purpose is like, hey, we want to be each other's like, vibrant sexual partner. We want to have a good time. Why wouldn't you build into your relationship a practice that, by the way, I think could be very fun and romantic? Like, wouldn't you want to hear if once a week, one of the questions we asked is, what were three times this week you wanted to like, have sex with me? Like, I was doing something. What was it like for men? It's easy. Oh, you were like bending over, picking up that thing, you know, like, what? But oh, you were wearing that shirt. When you, like, leaned over, I could see a little cleavage. Like, I'm sure there's some little thing. Which, by the way, she might not even know, because, remember, we're different creatures. Like, I bet for me, right, my answer would be something very visual about her form. You know, like. Like, my partner would be like, oh, it's her form. Like, you, like, leaned over. You bent over. I saw your cleaver. Whatever it might be, it might some very visual. I'm very visual. Or maybe auditory. Like, it would be something like that. Women, a lot of times it might be that, but it might also be like, oh, when you asked me about this, or when you, like, you know, you were really tired. I had a woman who we were talking about, like, what, this is a romantic partner of mine. And I had said to her, we were talking about, like, what's something you find sexy about each other? And mine were, like, so obvious. Like, they were just typical things, you know? And she was like, oh, there's this way. There's a little bit of hair of yours that sticks up sometimes. And it sticks up because when you've been stressed, you, like, lean this way. And I can tell you had, like, a really stressful day at work because this little bit of hair is stuck up because you've. You've been, like, rubbing your temple. And she's like. And I think it's really sexy because it's, like, it shows me that you were, like, really into it today and really, like, working. And I feel like I want to, like, a. I want some of that intensity and also that, like, I want to, like, comfort and soothe you. Yeah. Do you know how much time I've spent trying to get abs? Do you know, honestly, like, you know, many grilled chicken breasts I've eaten, and broccoli. It's insane how much I've worked on my obliques. And it turns out, like, this. Like, I could do that just right before I get home. Like, I could just be out all day having fun, and I could just have to do that. But it turns out that it would never have occurred to me that that's a thing. But again, you know how fun that conversation is. What a pleasure that conversation is. What a privilege to get to hear that. What a lovely thing to feel so seen and so loved and to know that there's something about me that I didn't even know this person finds attractive and likes, and that deepens our connection. And just having that conversation is fun. And by the way, I'M not afraid either, to, like, do the shadow side of that. Like, what's some things I did this week that made you not want to have sex with me? Like, was there a moment? And again, make it a praise sandwich so it's fun. Like, what did I do right? What did I get wrong? What did I do? What could I do better? Instead of saying, what did I get wrong? What could I do better? You know? But what was a moment that made you less inclined to me? What was something I did that, like, made you turn. Turned you off this week? I would want to know, wouldn't you?
- [54:01]
Interviewer
Yes.
- [54:01]
Jim Sexton
Yeah. So why not build that? And by the way, you don't think women want to have this conversation? Like, you know, men's magazines don't have the. Like, you know, take this quiz to see what your relationship style. That's women's magazines. Like, that's women's. But so if you think saying to your female partner, you know, hey, like, let's, let's. Let's write each other a list of 50 things. We love each other. And let's. It's due next week. You don't think she's gonna love that assignment? Even if she doesn't like doing it herself. She can't wait to hear yours. So she'll do the homework. So she gets to hear yours. Like, and what does it cost? Nothing. What does it really take? Not much. It's not a math quiz. You're answering a question that, like, you actually know that you don't have to study for that test. Like, what are some things you like about this person? Like, we get. We could do this right now. Maybe not the sex part, but we could do this right now. Like, Tom, what are. What are. I'll tell you three things I like about you. You can tell me three things you like about me. That's nice. That's fun. Why wouldn't we do that? Like, you know, if we're really intimate and we. We're friends, you know, Tom, what are some things you think I could work on? Like, we've been talking for a while now. Like, what are some things you think I like I may not see? Like the things I've said to you. Like that. Or the work of mine you've seen? What are some things? What do you think are some of my blind spots? What an easy thing. What a free. But again, there'll never be a commercial for this. You can't sell it. It's got no price tag on it. Like, you can't scale it you can't make an app for it. I mean, I'm sure you could find a way to make it an app. The check in. You know, you call it. I don't know, I just gave away the idea. There you go. Like, make a little weekly app that sends a reminder and you have to send each other. Cool. Okay, somebody go do that. Somebody go do that. Like. But the reason we're not sending this message is that again, like, we wouldn't be focused on all this other shit. We wouldn't be chasing all these red herrings all day if we went back to this core important thing and the simplicity of it. Because again, I said it to Lisa in our conversation, the four words, you're my favorite person. Like, that's the starting point of it. That should be the ending part. The ending point of it. Like, I hope 50 years, whatever, many years from now that it's the last time that you're with your wife, it's the last conversation the two of you have. I really hope you get to say to each other, you're my favorite person. Make it five words. At that point, you're still my favorite person. What a gift. What a gift. What a worthy pursuit. What other goal do you have that's as important as that one?
- [56:47]
Interviewer
That's awesome, man. This has been incredible. Where can people engage with you?
- [56:52]
Jim Sexton
If you're walking around New York City and West Chelsea, you'll probably bump into me because I never leave, like a 3 block radius. My gym is there, my jiu jitsu school is there. My office and my apartment are all within the same radius. So if you hang out by the vessel, you'll see me. You can find me on Instagram @nyc divorce lawyer. You can find my firm@nyc divorces.com. you can find my YouTube channel@sextonshow.com and yeah, that's. Oh, you can find my book on Amazon or wherever fine books are sold. It's been translated now into Bulgarian, Ukrainian, Polish. There's a UK edition. So apparently, apparently the whole world's trying to figure it all out. And you can listen to it on Audible. You can go on Audible or Google Play or any of those if you want to hear me talk for eight and a half hours. Hours. That's. It's a long. That's a lot of Sexton. But yeah, any of those places.
- [57:40]
Interviewer
I love it. All right, guys, if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe. And until next time, my friends, be legendary. Take care. Peace.