Raymond Ibrahim: Jefferson Left a Warning About Islam in 1786. The West Forgot It. | Impact Theory w Tom Bilyeu

Summary

Podcast Episode Summary

Podcast: Impact Theory with Tom Bilyeu
Episode: Raymond Ibrahim: Jefferson Left a Warning About Islam in 1786. The West Forgot It.
Date: March 12, 2026

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Overview of the Episode

In this conversation, Tom Bilyeu interviews Raymond Ibrahim—author, historian, and expert on Islamic doctrine and history—about his controversial perspective on the relationship between Islam and the West. Ibrahim presents a thesis that Islam cannot be seen as just another religion but rather as an all-encompassing religious-political system with inherent doctrines that, in his view, foster incompatibility with Western values and societies. Drawing on historical examples, including the writings of Thomas Jefferson, long-standing doctrine, and contemporary European immigration, Ibrahim issues a warning that Western societies misunderstand or ignore the ideological continuity within Islam. Throughout the episode, Bilyeu challenges Ibrahim’s views, ensuring the audience can critically evaluate whether these positions are rooted in bigotry or legitimate historical and doctrinal analysis.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Raymond Ibrahim’s Central Thesis

• Islam is not just a religion but a comprehensive religio-political system.
  • “Islam is not just another religion, it's an entire coherent religion political system.”—Raymond Ibrahim [01:41]
• Sharia (Islamic law) and Islam are essentially the same; Sharia is the prescriptive application of Islamic principles.
  • “Sharia and Islam are inherently the same...Sharia is the prescriptive application. So that's, I guess that would be my ultimate thesis...That's not just some weird accretion that some radicals do. That is Islam.” [01:41]

2. Historical Continuity and Conquest

• Ibrahim explains the violent conquest that accompanied the spread of Islam, particularly in former Christian regions (e.g., Egypt, Syria, Turkey, North Africa).
• He cites the fall of various Christian strongholds and equates much of Islamic history with an ideological, continuous warfare with the “infidel.”
  • “In one century, from the death of Muhammad 632 to 732, they literally have conquered three quarters of the Christian world, which most people have no idea about.” [02:46]
• Makes reference to the Barbary Wars and Thomas Jefferson’s interaction with Muslim emissaries as foundational to his warnings.

3. Contemporary Relevance: Immigration and Demographics

• Ibrahim warns that Western Europe is repeating historical mistakes by allowing mass Muslim immigration without understanding historical precedents or ideological underpinnings.
  • “Spain went through 800 years of war to evict Muslims, okay, The Reconquista, literally, because they couldn't get along. And now they're bringing [in Muslims]...massive disconnect between the Western world with its history and the Muslim world.” [08:13]
• Expansion through other forms of “jihad”—not necessarily violent, but via proselytizing (dawah), demographic growth (“baby jihad”), and political activism.

4. Doctrine and Its Interpretation

• Ibrahim lays out three key doctrines that, in his view, make Islam incompatible with the West:
  • a. Al-Wala Wal-Bara (Loyalty and Enmity / Love and Hate): Muslims are obliged to love, befriend, and side only with fellow Muslims, and harbor enmity towards non-Muslims.
    • “This is an ironclad doctrine...Muslims must only help, befriend, like side with and be loyal to Muslims...and they must have hatred for the non Muslim. And whenever they can, they must wage war and try to subjugate them.” [23:11]
  • b. Jihad: Defined not just as violent war but as a religiously mandated struggle, which can also be nonviolent (jihad of the tongue, the pen, money, and babies).
    • “Jihad...Muslims are obligated to engage in holy war...who's the enemy? Everyone who's not a Muslim. Because we have to control their lands and we have to rule them.” [21:37]
  • c. Second-Class Status for Conquered Populations (Dhimmitude): Non-Muslims under Islamic rule must pay tribute, live humiliated, and accept their inferior status.
    • “In Islam, once you're conquered, you pay tribute and you have to be a second class citizen...If you talk about Egypt, my ancestral homeland, that's what you will see more.” [57:13], [59:41]

5. Distinguishing Doctrine from Practice

• Ibrahim repeatedly distinguishes between the doctrine of Islam and actual Muslims, noting that not all Muslims follow these tenets strictly—many are secular or do not act on them.
• Bilyeu presses this distinction, highlighting that every religion has extremists, but what matters is whether the doctrine itself encourages the behavior.
  • “Like any religion, some people are way into it, some aren't.” —Tom Bilyeu [19:52]
  • “It's not about the people, it's about the doctrine and how rigorously you apply it.” —Ibrahim [17:05]

6. “Taqiyya” and Hidden Intent

• The doctrine of taqiyya (religiously sanctioned dissimulation) is discussed as a means by which Muslims can hide their beliefs or blend in, which, according to Ibrahim, breeds mistrust.
  • “You have the open, avowed jihadist...Whereas other Muslims, smarter ones maybe will play the grievance mantra...But you're right. So then, then you have this gray zone who maybe seem moderate and maybe some are, but you don't know which is the one who's pretending, which is the one who's waiting for the circumstances to change.” [38:46]

7. Comparing Islamic and Christian Texts

• A key distinction: violent prescriptions in the Old Testament are seen as specific and historical, versus the Quran’s violent mandates being general, prescriptive, and open-ended for all time.
  • “The Old Testament is descriptive, it's not prescriptive. The Quran is prescriptive.” [45:49]
  • “So when you read the verb of killing the infidel, it's in the present...fight and kill the infidel. So if I'm a Muslim, I read it...it's speaking to me in the now.” [46:59]

8. Bilyeu’s Counterpoints and Framing

• Bilyeu challenges Ibrahim by raising questions of bigotry versus legitimate concern, the role of reform within Islam, parallels with other religions, and whether culture, not just doctrine, plays a more significant role in real-world tensions.
  • “Some people...their base assumption is going to be Rupert Lowe is a wild bigot. You are giving this because you've got some axe to grind around bigotry. And we'll get to growing up as an Egyptian Christian and what that means and all of that.” [10:55]
  • “Is it that or is it just that they're having more kids, they're more confident in themselves...” [51:11]

9. Historical and Cultural Fatalism?

• Ibrahim argues that most Westerners vastly underappreciate the impact and continuity of Islamic doctrine and ambitions historically and today.
• He suggests that the current Western “self-flagellation” and guilt over colonialism have blinded Europe and America to repeat past errors.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On the thesis of historical continuity and warning:

  • “There feels like a sense of a warning that you're giving the West about Islam, that we're not taking it seriously enough.” —Tom Bilyeu [00:49]
  • “This has been going on for over a millennium.” —Raymond Ibrahim, referencing ideological conflict [06:59]

• On doctrine and identity:

  • “Muslims don't care what you think.” —Raymond Ibrahim (to Tom about reform) [01:22]
  • “It's not about the people, it's about the doctrine and how rigorously you apply it.” —Raymond Ibrahim [17:05]
  • "If you want to be honest...there's a lot of problems. Of course certain people want to put their head in the sand and say, no, no, everything's fine. But no, there's massive problems." —Raymond Ibrahim [08:13]

• On risk and leadership:

  • “If I'm a governor or I'm a leader of, let's say, a European nation...I wouldn't engage in that. Why would I take something fast?... Five are poison. No biggie. Okay, let’s eat them. Would you give that to your kid? I wouldn’t.” —Raymond Ibrahim [38:47]

• On historical and sociological context:

  • “It’s like a caste system.” —Tom Bilyeu [59:12]
  • “That’s more organic though. It’s organic to be: I’m a minority, let me just be grateful they’re not killing me.” —Raymond Ibrahim [59:13]

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:41] – Ibrahim’s central thesis: Islam as a religio-political system.
• [02:46 – 07:07] – Historical overview of Islamic conquest and Jefferson’s encounter.
• [08:13 – 12:18] – Discussion of European immigration, integration, and disconnect with history.
• [17:05 – 21:14] – Difference between doctrine and people; analogy with Christianity and Judaism.
• [21:14 – 26:23] – Deep dive into jihad, al-wala wal-bara, and doctrinal motivations.
• [33:26 – 37:09] – On the topic of reform, Quranic interpretation by phase (Meccan vs. Medinan verses).
• [38:46 – 40:57] – Taqiyya, categories of Muslim adherence, analogy of risk for Western leaders.
• [45:49 – 48:01] – Difference between Old Testament and Quranic violence: specificity vs. universality.
• [57:13 – 60:40] – The fate of conquered peoples: dhimmitude and second-class status.
• [61:01 – 62:24] – Colonial era and the 'goods' brought vs. Islamic conquest.

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Flow and Tone

The discussion is measured, intense, and academically detailed, with Bilyeu consistently challenging Ibrahim to separate doctrine from practice, clarify his terms, and explain the rationale behind his warnings. Ibrahim offers a passionate, at times alarmist, but detailed historical argument pitched as a scholarly warning rather than a xenophobic rant. The tone is rigorous, at times provocative, and explicitly addressed to skeptics who may otherwise dismiss Ibrahim as a bigot.

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Summary Takeaway

Raymond Ibrahim’s appearance on Impact Theory presents a challenging interpretation of Islamic doctrine’s compatibility with the West. He traces historical continuity, doctrinal content, and modern demographics, warning that both soft and hard forms of jihad pose existential risks to Western liberal societies unaware of these realities. Tom Bilyeu acts as a critical, open-minded challenger, teasing out the distinctions between doctrine and individual Muslims, the possibilities for reform, and the responsibilities of both host societies and immigrants. The episode provides a robust, if one-sided, catalog of arguments and counter-arguments on one of the most contested subjects in modern geopolitics.

Transcript

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[Raymond Ibrahim]

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[Raymond Ibrahim]

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[Tom Bilyeu]

There feels like a sense of a warning that you're giving the west about Islam that we're not taking it seriously enough.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

We most of what we call the Muslim world, which again, North Africa, the Middle east, but all into Asia. The vast majority of that land was taken by conquest. So now you fast forward to today and your average Western or European has no idea about this. You have to understand who and what you're bringing in. Who's the enemy? Everyone who's not a Muslim. Okay. Are there Christians who are nominal Christians who want to engage in violence? Yeah, of course.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Can Islam have an enlightenment and truly reform itself?

[Raymond Ibrahim]

You or Sam Harris? Muslims don't care what you think.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Raymond Ibrahim, welcome to the show.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

Good to be with you, Tom. Thanks.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Good to have you. I want to start somewhere very specific and that is if you had to put forward a thesis about how the west should think about Islam, what would it be?

[Raymond Ibrahim]

The thesis would be that Islam is not just another religion, it's an entire coherent religion political system. A lot of people are approaching Sharia, which is usually loosely translated as Islamic law. And they're, they have no problem condemning it. A lot of Americans, you know, Greg Abbott, Trump Abbott said, like there's no room for Sharia in, in Texas, for example. And that's all well and good, but I think as people start learning, well, guess what? Sharia and Islam are inherently the same, you know, one, I call one Islam, the descriptive name of the religion and, and Sharia is the prescriptive application. So that's, I guess that would be my ultimate thesis which is, you know, maybe you see What Sharia is, maybe you don't like it, maybe you find it incompatible with the west, but guess what? That's not just some weird accretion that some radicals do. That is Islam.

[Tom Bilyeu]

All right? So when I'm reading the stuff you write, when I hear you talk on the Internet, there feels like a sense of a warning that you're giving the west about Islam, that we're not taking it seriously enough. Something along those lines does that feel

[Raymond Ibrahim]

from the very beginning of Islam, in the seventh century, after Muhammad dies in Arabia is consolidated under the banner of Islam. They go on the jihad according to Islamic teaching. And in one century, from the death of Muhammad 632 to 732, they literally have conquered three quarters of the Christian world, which most people have no idea about. Okay. When people hear of countries like Egypt and Syria or Turkey, they just have in their mind this vague idea that they were always either Muslim or kind of Eastern. Yeah, no, they were actually. If you went in the seventh century, that was Christianity was more ingrained in Egypt, in Turkey, in Syria, in Morocco, Mauritania, and in Tunisia. You know, the father of Western theology, Augustine, he's from Tunisia. He's a North African. He was a Berber. Okay. And most of the early fathers were Egyptians and Syrians and so forth. And you had five seas, five major centers. One was Rome, the other four, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Constantinople all got conquered by Islam. So it was a long, constant war that went on, literally for over a millennium. Okay, Century after century, whenever Muslims could. Obviously, there were times when it was an ebb and flow and due to the vicissitudes of circumstances and Muslims weren't strong enough, they wouldn't attack. But any such time that they were strong, they conquered. So I just told you, I gave you the date 732 1century, because that's the Battle of Tours. And that's where Islam has finally stopped, in the center of France. Spain has now been conquered. All of North Africa has been conquered. The greater Middle east has been conquered. And then later, Turkey gets conquered, which is one of the most ancient Christian regions. That's where St. Paul sent many of his letters. It features in the book of Revelation. There was a long, constant war and annexation of Christian territories by Islam historically, just as a fact. And why did they do it? So even if you find a historian who is willing to talk about this, they'll give them their national names, okay? They'll talk about the Arab conquest. They'll talk about the Moors in Spain. They'll talk about the Turks and they'll talk about the Tatars and the Mongols, they'll call them Saracens. And when you hear it that way, as I did in college, you're prone to just think, okay, these are different warring groups. Just like in Europe, the French and the English are warring. There's no ideological component necessarily. But if you dig into the sources, as I have the primary sources, including from the Muslim sources, the. They see themselves not necessarily as Turks or Arabs, but as Muslims first and foremost. And their rationale for war on whoever, let's say Christians, is you're an infidel and you know, that's the rule of Islam and we have to attack you and give you the three choices, convert, die or pay tribute and be a second class citizen, etc. Etc. So my point is it was a long, constant, massive war that went on that swallowed up most of the Christian West. Okay. You know, we call it the west because it's west of what? Well, west it was, when we think of the west, it now it has its own kind of connotation, but historically in the medieval era it was, it was west because it was the westernmost portion of Christianity that didn't get conquered. Okay? It was the final appendage, Europe. And there was a constant warfare, constant struggle that went on. You know, Islamic pirates would go as far as iceland in the 16th century for raids and they would come back with loads of slaves. America's first war, most people are unaware as a nation following independence from Britain was with Muslims who were again, again using the same logic. And it's interesting because it comes out in the writings of Thomas Jefferson, you know, this paragon of enlightenment, who had of course obviously forgotten about those Muslims and didn't really understand what was going on. But they were enslaving American sailors in their vessels. They would raid them. Pirates, Muslim pirates from Barbary. And Adams, John Adams. And Jefferson met with one of the ambassadors from Barbary. And basically, and we have the existing letter where Jefferson wrote a letter to Congress saying what happened in the meeting. And he says, we told him, look, can't we just be friends? We have nothing against you, you can do your religion and let's engage in trade, let's help each other. And then Jefferson writes, and the man answered us and said, it's in our Quran, you're the enemy, you're the infidel, we must wage war on you, etc. Etc. Okay, so I tell you all that by way to answer your question about the warning. Okay? So this has been going on for over a millennium.

[Tom Bilyeu]

This being, we are ideologically driven. We are going to wage warfare to conquer the infidel.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

And we have conquered most of what we call the Muslim world, which again, North Africa, the Middle east, but all into Asia, okay? And in sub Saharan Africa, the vast majority of that land was taken by conquest. So I mentioned what was taken from Christians. Iran was the Zoroastrian great civilization that was conquered, the Pakistan. Okay, which land of the pure. Well, those are just Hindus who finally were conquered and converted to Islam. Okay. Even in Indonesia there's this sort of story about. No, no, it didn't spread through violence. There was actually a lot of coercion once Muslims grew in numbers. So, so that's the warning. So now you fast forward to today and your average Westerner European has no idea about this. What they know is colonialism and, you know, evil Europeans. And now we're going to make it up for them. I mean, that's the logic. In the UK for example, that's why it's flooded with Pakistanis, because we're making up for our sins and colonizing their lands and we're bringing them here. That kind of logic.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And to you that's patently ridiculous.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

It's patently ridiculous because, okay, you have to understand what you who and what you're bringing in. And the law, okay, so now you've brought in, let's say the UK and the really big ones, uk, Germany and France, but also Sweden, you know, and the numbers of Muslims are growing in Italy. Spain just gave a blanket acceptance of like a million migrants, which is kind of insane. Spain went through 800 years of war to evict Muslims, okay, The Reconquista, literally, because they couldn't get along. And now they're bringing him. So it just shows you the massive disconnect between the Western world with, with its history and the Muslim world. Like I said, is continuity. So, okay, when Muslims come to Europe. So just to explain to you some ideas, According to Islamic rule, Islamic law, Sharia, Muslims are forbidden from voluntarily migrating to live under non Muslim rule, infidel rule. You have to live in the lands of Sharia, where Islam, Islam dominates. Okay. Why would you go live with the enemy? Because the non Muslim stated that. Oh yeah, that's stated. Okay. Okay, but now there's caveats, okay, which I'll get to. So that, I mean, but that is the normal state of affairs. They're the enemy, we're the Muslims. The Quran is full of this whole doctrine, which it's in Arabic, it's called Al wala wal bara, which means Muslims must only help, befriend, like side with and be loyal to. Muslims of the Ummah basically means the supranational Islamic community that transcends race, you know, language, ethnicity, ethnicity and geography. And they must have hatred for the non Muslim. And when and whenever they can, they must wage war and try to subjugate them. Okay, that is a legit doctrine straight out of the Quran. I've written a lot about it. I can give you some verses if you want, but. So that's the driving doctrine that propelled the historic jihad. It still exists. Muslims still think this way. So then you bring masses of them into Europe. I mentioned main countries, England and UK and whatnot. And if you look there, yeah, there's a lot of problems. Okay. I mean, nobody's going to argue that if you want to be honest. Of course certain people want to put their head in the sand and say, no, no, everything's fine. But no, there's massive problems. You probably heard of this Restore Britain new party that came out. I mean, there's a reason why people. And if you hear the words of what he's saying, I think his last name is Low. You know, it's, it's. On the one hand it's refreshing because it's basically what everyone there is thinking. You know, on the other hand, it's like, I can't. You would never would have imagined someone talking that way a decade ago. But why is he. Because it's a reflection.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Let me plan a flag for people. So some people that are watching this right now, their base assumption is going to be Rupert Lowe is a wild bigot. You are giving this because you've got some extra grind around bigotry. And we'll get to growing up as an Egyptian Christian and what that means and all of that. But I want to. So I wanted to get all of that out on the table so that people understand what the sort of core thesis is. What you're worried about, that there's all this historical continuity. Muslims are driven by a core doctrine. That core doctrine says that you should be going in and conquering based on the religious doctrine. We've got people now going into these countries. Call it immigration through conquest. You didn't say that, but I know your work. I'm familiar enough that I know that that's a thing on the table. Ok, okay. Now I want to back up and I want to walk through what the foundational beliefs are that you have that lead you to that Because I want the people watching this to be able to draw a well informed conclusion as to whether this is just bigotry or whether there really is a reason to be concerned about this. So how did you grow up? Your parents are immigrants from Egypt.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

Right.

[Tom Bilyeu]

But they're not Muslim. So give me that background, what that was like and most importantly, how it informs your views.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

Okay, so am I correct? I was born here. My parents immigrated from Egypt. They're what's called Coptic Christians. Okay. And the word Coptic is basically a corruption of the Greek word agyptus, which is where we get our English Egyptian, it's aegyptos. And so when the Arabs invaded and they met the Agiptos, they just called them gyptos. They dropped the first and last syllables and gift eventually found its way to us as Copt. Okay, so, but now it means, you know, the indigenous inhabitants of Egypt, pre Islam, who still exist in minorities and are Christians because like I was telling you, those countries were still Christian when the, when the Arabs invaded them. Egypt was conquered around 641 AD. Okay, so now here's the thing, and I know where you're going to this, because people have said this to me before, which is, oh, you, you. It's because you're a Christian and you feel like Muslims took over your country and you have an axe to grind. And I've heard that before. Now here's the truth that most people don't understand. And if you find an Egyptian or a Copt from Egypt, most of them are going to tell you. Yeah. Which is actually a lot of Coptic Christians don't even like what I'm saying and would not agree with me. And they, and they like their, they'll tell you, oh, my friends are all Muslims. You're a hate monger. What are you doing? And I would actually argue my parents would have been at least neutral. They weren't like, we love Muslims. But they wouldn't have said, you know, oh yeah, Muslims are all monsters or evil. So I can honestly say that, that the only thing that my own personal background might have done is it drew interest in the question in the first place. My main interest is history. I studied history. That's what I majored in, in history. And so it was natural, of course, for me to gravitate to those topics that are part of who I am. Okay, so yeah, okay, I'm a cop, I'm Christian Muslims. But so that's why my first thesis was, for example, about the first military conflict between Muslims and Christians, because I was involved in military history at the time. So I don't think that, you know, my, my, if anything, my background, if you really dig into it. And you know, there's this theory that, oh yeah, every Christian from the Islamic world hates Muslims and they're being persecuted. And that's not even true. I mean, that's one of the topics I'm expert in. I have another book on the persecution of Christians and we could talk about that, but most Christians would actually, because it's a cultural thing. A lot of Christians from the Middle east are culturally like Muslims. So if you put a, if you put an American Christian and a Coptic Christian and an Egyptian Muslim, the Coptic Christian and the Muslims are going to be best friends because culturally they see things eye to eye. So I tell you all this, okay? So you understand that. No, that's not in any way. Christians are not born and bred with this. Oh, those Muslims, we can't wait till we get away from them. Okay, now obviously there's some who did experience persecution in the modern era and it's getting worse now. But like, let's say in my parents day, it wasn't that bad at all. The Muslims were. This is, let's say my parents were born in the 40s, you know, so they're growing up in the 60s. If Muslims in Egypt at that time were nowhere near as radical as today, and even today, a lot of them are not radical. So again, I'm just telling you all this that, just to tell you that that is, if anything, that should have moderated my views that I am.

[Tom Bilyeu]

We're hitting pause for a moment, but there's plenty more ahead, so don't go anywhere.

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[Tom Bilyeu]

Thanks for sticking around. Let's get right back into the action. If we know that Muslims and Christians can live side by side and not end up having animosity towards each other, how is that consistent with your view that there's this pattern that repeats through history, and so it's just sort of inevitable, and if you're not careful, it's going to happen again. Because that tells me, at least for one period, everybody was fine living together.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

My ultimate point is the religion of Islam as it is, as it is understood, written down, documented black and white in the Quran, codified by the ulama or the clerics. Okay. Is an intolerant and violent creed that is incompatible with the West. That's my message. Okay? Now what happens inevitably, and we're having it right now, and I'm glad we are, because it's important, is all of a sudden now we conflate the religion with the people, okay? And with every religion, Christianity, Judaism, whatever, you have teachings, and then you have people who are, to varying degrees, associated with the teaching. Okay, we can look at. Let's just look at. Okay, look at Judaism, right? You have the actual Orthodox Jews, and then you have. I think they're called the reformed or liberal Jews. Okay? Yeah, okay, but they're all Jews, right? And even the. I think they're called reformed Jews who are like liberal Jews. You know, they'll tell you. Well, I'm. I believe this, but the Orthodox believe something else. Okay? So. But as it happens, the Orthodox, I'm sure, are much closer to Judaism. And as it happens, the radical as written. You mean as written. Yeah. They're being more consistent, they're being more loyal or adherent to the actual text and the traditions and the history. Now, the same thing with Islam. So as I described to you, Islam, it is what it is. It's violent, it's intolerant. It's not out to live in coexistence. It's just out to become supreme. All right? Now, the Muslims within Islam, you know, what are they? Almost 2 billion people. You're going to have some who think that's great and who love it and who want to activate it and who want to be part of that. You're going to find some who don't even know about it, who don't care, just like the many nominal Christians in the west who say, I'm a Christian, but what do they even know about Christianity, right? So you're going to have Muslims like That you're going to have Muslims who even know that there's bad stuff. But they're not going to, they're not going to live with it. They're going to know there's going to be Muslims who know the bad stuff and they agree to it, but they're not going to commit to it. Not yet because it's. The situation is not opportune. So I guess my point is I have, I've gone back to my background and all that. I've objectively studied Islam and I know, I know the languages, the original languages. It's been my academic background. I've written books. And what I'm telling you is not coming from. I'm a bitter copped with an ax to grind. It's coming if anything that should have tempered me. Most of the cops I know actually don't like what I'm doing. You know, you're being a troublemaker. People live in peace. Okay, so to go back to that, well, are they living in peace or not? Well, it who's doing what? Some Christians in Egypt and in Middle Eastern countries get it persecuted, some get killed, some have Muslim neighbors who they get along with.

[Tom Bilyeu]

What will help us is to break these down into some chunks. So the first thing is what I'm hearing you say like any religion, some people are way into it, some aren't.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

Right.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Hiding in. There is a belief then that even if you have the vast majority that are column secularized, they're not super by the book. It doesn't take a large number of people that are exactly orthodox. I don't think Muslims use that word but that idea very strict by the book to create a problem. And the ideology that's hiding in the more hardlined orthodox we'd say radical but I want to stay away from that kind of language that they're really tied to the word of the Quran, the Hadith, the interpretations. You'll have to walk us through that. But so for now I'll ask the audience to accept that you have a core belief that says it does not require a large number of people to be a problem for there to be a problem. So you, you've been very clear about separating the people from the religion. So now walk us through what are you've said a bunch of them but like sort of in passing going quickly walk me through what is the doctrine of Islam that becomes problematic for a hardliner who's like. But it says right here to do this thing.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

Okay, there are actually three. The first one I touched on is the second one I'll mention briefly because it's the most popular, which is jihad. Okay. That is a doctrine. It's, it's, it's okay. Which is there's Quranic verses, it's the life of Muhammad, it's the example of the caliphates, it's the example of the sultanates, whether they're Arabs or, or Turks.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So people will have heard the word.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

But what is jihad, actually? Yeah. Okay. So it's very interesting, actually, Jihad. The old Orientalists, the original translators, Europeans, they would translate it as holy war. And that's fair, you know, because when you come across a foreign word, you can either give it its most literal meaning or you want to give it the connotation that the Arab mind hears. And holy war is exactly what it would mean. All right? Now, what's funny and what it is, what it was historically, is Muslims are obligated to engage in holy war, which is not just war. It's divine. Allah is behind you. If you die, you reach the highest levels of paradise. Paradise. So that's why it's holy. And who's the. Who's the enemy? Everyone who's not a Muslim. Because we have to con. We have to control their lands and we have to rule them.

[Tom Bilyeu]

All right, Is it ever expressly said, why? Like, why do we have to control, invade, conquer?

[Raymond Ibrahim]

I'll answer it this way. Let's go to the first really problematic doctrine. Okay, so jihad is the manifestation of what I'm going to talk about now. The first, which I would call the first premise doctrine, which I've touched on and will answer your question. And it's the one in Arabic. It's called al wala wal bara, and it's based on numerous verses in the Quran. And it's basically.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Okay, sorry, really fast. I think people should know you speak Arabic as a first language?

[Raymond Ibrahim]

Yeah, I was born here, so I don't know. I'm bilingual with my parents.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So you are fluent. So you're reading direct sources.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

Yes.

[Tom Bilyeu]

You've read the Quran in Arabic?

[Raymond Ibrahim]

Yes.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Got it.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

Okay.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Just making sure people know that.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

Yeah. Okay. So this doctrine B, which is un. Unwavering. I even, you know, with chat, GPT and AI, which I think tend to be politically correct. I put them on a spot and I asked them about this doctrine and they're like, yeah, this is a legit doctrine.

[Tom Bilyeu]

This is what, Sorry, what's the doctrine exactly?

[Raymond Ibrahim]

So it's called al wala wal bara in Arabic and it can be translated. It's like a Dichotomy. It could be. I used to translate it as loyalty and enmity. And a lot of Muslims I've seen they've.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Loyalty, enmity is what, love or hate? I actually don't know.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

Well, so a lot of Muslims simplify by translating it as love and hate.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Okay?

[Raymond Ibrahim]

I used to go with loyalty and enmity. You can translate those words in different ways. So wallet means to befriend, to be allied to, to love, to help. But that's the opposite. It's to disavow, have nothing to do with and hate. Okay? And you are supposed to have the former, the alliance, and befriend to Muslims only. Okay? They are your brothers. And like I said, it doesn't matter if they're different races or cultures. You're all Muslims. You're supposed to have the second, the hatred and the disavowal and the renunciation of everyone who's not a Muslim. Okay? This is an ironclad doctrine. And it's not just disavowal. I mentioned hatred. Quran 64. This is one of the most problematic verses that very few people know. 60 as in Surah 60 ayah or verse 4. It basically says, you have a good example in Ibrahim. Okay, who's the Abraham, the Genesis Abraham figure? Because of course, Islam appropriates all the biblical figures and gives them different names and different roles. So in Genesis Abraham, God calls him from the land of Ur and he leaves. And that's basically what we know in the Islamic rendering. Before he leaves, he tells his kinsmen, hatred and enmity will exist between you and me, you and us Muslims, because he's a Muslim until you believe in Allah alone. And then that verse says, and he is a good example for you Muslims, this is how you should feel towards non Muslims. And then there's all sorts of examples of some of the pious Muslims that were befriended with Muhammad, including the first Caliph and the second Khalif. They fought and killed their relatives. And that's good. Allah likes that because it shows their loyalty is to the Ummah and the Muslims, not their. And there's a verse that says, and you know, even if they're your fathers or your brothers or whoever, you can't be loyal or befriend them because they're infidels. And I have a video which I translated like 15 years ago, of an Egyptian cleric talking in Arabic and he's talking about this very doctrine and he mentions how, you know, Muslims can. Muslim men can marry people of the book, which means Christians and Jewish women. But he says, but you have to hate them and you have to let them know you hate them. And you can have sex with them and enjoy them, but you know, as long as the hatred is in your heart. Okay, so this is a teaching now,

[Tom Bilyeu]

but is that just some wacko or.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

It's in the Quran. I mean, you can say he's a wacko. It was clear, you know, some of the, even Muslims were very like, are you sure? And he's like, well, what do you want to do? There it is. And he mentioned the verse that I told you and others. So that's, you know, that's the problem. Now I'm telling you all this because I told you there's three doctrines. So the first one, this is the first one.

[Tom Bilyeu]

It's Muslims hate non Muslims.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

Yeah. And they're loyal to fellow Muslims. And so what Muhammad did, I always say this is his genius, if you will, is that he took the tribal mores of his society, 7th century Arabia, which is ultra tribalistic, but he re articulated them through a theological paradigm. So now it's not just, it's not normal tribalism, me and my family against yours. It's the Muslims versus the rest of the world. The rest of the world is the other, the non tribe. And just like it was in Arabia in the 7th century, the non tribe member is someone who you can kill and enslave and do whatever you want to. Okay? So that became the doctrine, and I was telling you earlier that Muslims are not permitted to migrate voluntarily and live under Islamic, non Islamic authority. Okay? Because you're not supposed to be loyal to them. How can you give allegiance? The caveat is, and this goes back. So we've dealt with the first one, the loyalty and enmity, and now we're talking about jihad again. And the caveat is, okay, you can go to these European countries and as long as you are in one way or the other involved in jihad on behalf of Islam. Now, the historic manifestation which I mentioned is of jihad is violent warfare. Okay, this is why they called it, they translated it as holy war. But this is what I find funny. A lot of the apologists today will tell you, no, no, holy war is wrong because the words jihad really means to struggle and to strive, which is true, but that actually makes it even more problematic or makes it even more dangerous. And it underscores what's going on. That is the literal meaning of the word. You are supposed to struggle and strive on behalf of Islam. Historically that meant war because nobody was going to just give in to you. Unless you force them. So now Muslim clerics have articulated a number of jihad struggles that are not militant or physical. They call them and they give them different names. I'm just translating them in my head. There's a jihad of the tongue, the jihad of the pen, the jihad of money, the baby jihad. And all of these Muslims who, if you migrate to the west, are expected to be engaged in this because that is how you're still a good Muslim. If you're just going to the west because you want a good life, well, okay, you're a traitor. You're not a real Muslim. So. But if you're doing these jihada, the pen in the tongue means I'm somehow engaged in propaganda on behalf of Islam. I'm trying to demoralize Westerners. I'm trying to. I'm doing what's called dawah. I'm preaching Islam, okay? I'm making Islam look good. Jihad of the money, of course, is I'm a rich Saudi and I just spend millions to help further whatever Islamist jihadist causes. And the baby jihad, this is the really dangerous one in many ways in Europe is the Muslims are encouraged to be as fertile as possible and overwhelm the, you know, Europe. They literally have said that. I mean, there's clerics on videos saying your job is go there and have as many babies as you want. And you go to Europe right now, and many of the major capitals, the number one newborn baby names Muhammad. Okay, so that is so not so. I'm trying to show you the continuity of what had gone on historically.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Taking a short break, but there's more impact theory after. Stay tuned.

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[Tom Bilyeu]

Thanks for staying tuned. Now let's get back to it. There's one piece that is missing in all this. So you use a word, I could follow all of your logic, but you use a word that at least with the items you put on the table does, does not yet make sense to me. Which is the most dangerous thing is. And the most dangerous thing is that they're basically outbreeding. They're going to have more.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

The most fundamental, the Philip. On a philosophical level, the most dangerous thing is this is a hostile element or demographic that is trying to take over whichever way. Yeah, demographically.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So let me, let me push deeper into this really fast and you can tell me if I'm getting this wrong. So your worldview has internal consistency. If I believe the following. So for that to be dangerous, there has to be some part, and I know the punchline I think of what you're going to say because I've studied you so closely. But there's this element of, okay, this is high risk because they act one way when they're weak and they act another way when they're strong. And so the reason I think you have to walk us through now, if this actually is what you're saying through why you believe it is erroneous to call this a religion of peace, even though in the Quran itself there are overtures to peace, to non coercive, like you can't coerce people to change their religion, all of that stuff. And so when I hear you, because I've heard so many other things, I think I know where you're headed with that. But if you can define, like if I were to say, hey, Christians, go forth and prosper, go to the far ends of the earth and bring Jesus to people, make people's lives better and do it by writing, do it by speaking, do it by having more children, do it by proselytizing. It sounds awesome. It only starts sounding dark when you start using words like it's propaganda. This is a dangerous thing. It's like, well, I would expect the religions of the world to compete and to compete in nonviolent ways. Like I'm not going to have beef with that. Like, yeah, that's exactly what you should do. So the word dangerous makes sense if you're just like, I don't want my religion to be the one that loses, even though I don't really have an explanation as to why mine is better, but that would make sense. Or if you believe for some reason that they would do all these nonviolent jihad only to lead to something violent. So yeah, yeah, okay.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

They can do all the nonviolent stuff and a lot of them think it's great. Well, like you say, Muslims don't see themselves as the bad guys. Right? Okay. So when they.

[Tom Bilyeu]

But you said your parents wouldn't see them as bad guys either.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

Yeah, not necessarily. My parents, I think, would have had the same idea with me, which is the religion's messed up and the core teachings, but we know a lot of nice Muslims who don't do it. Okay. That's the understanding that's going to be

[Tom Bilyeu]

the big thing though looming in this whole argument is why, why aren't we just talking about reform? Why aren't we talking about Muslims?

[Raymond Ibrahim]

We're not talking about reform because we're not Muslims. Okay? Muslims need to talk about reform.

[Tom Bilyeu]

It's fair.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

It's ridiculous for you and me to talk about reform. If they want to reform it, that's one thing. And a lot of that's been going on, but we're talking a lot of good stuff. But you did say something I want to unpack a little bit, which is, you know, like some of the verses in the Quran are good and why are you looking at the bad ones? So I should tell you, there's an entire science of how Muslims approach that because for Muslims, they want to. Islam is legalistic religion. Okay. It's not, I would argue Christianity was very legalistic in its own sense, but Islam is legalistic in that it's not about some spiritual relationship I have. I mean, again, Christianity didn't even have that idea until a few centuries ago. And in Islam, so it's a law. We're looking for the law and we're deriving it from the words of Allah and the example of the Prophet. Now you're right, I can open the Quran and there's good verses and a

[Tom Bilyeu]

lot of that good means peace. Yeah.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

Peaceful, non violent, cooperative and you know, stuff that they, a lot of Muslim apologists will tell you. Well, look at that. So what are you talking about? Now? The issue is the Muslim clerics who have a huge role. In fact, they're part of Sharia law. It's called ijma, which means consensus, which is if there's any ambiguity, it's. It's what the Islamic clerics have agreed upon that becomes part of Sharia law. Okay. And so they approached it and they looked and they said, yeah, there's a difference. And then they realized, and you might have touched on this, but that the, the whole revelation, as it's understood, of the Quran to Muhammad was done based oftentimes on the circumstances of his life. And so you find that the earliest revelations, they divide him by two. One is in Mecca, that's the older one, later ones in Medina. And they're, I mean, they even talk about them as the Medinan Quran and the Meccan Quran, even though they're one Quran. And so the Meccan Quran is where you. Muhammad was weak, he was outnumbered. He didn't have any followers for a while. And then when he did, it was like a hundred. And you know, he's living amongst what would be seen as a hostile pagan peoples, the Kurish of Mecca. Okay, those are the verses where they come off. There's no war. He's not calling for jihad or anything like that. He, then he does the hijra, he move the migration in the year 622, goes to Medina. There he starts becoming a political leader. Okay. And before long he starts doing the jihad and he starts going and doing caravan raids and attacking. And in eight years, he's conquered almost most of Arabia, including Mecca itself.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Was he like a military genius?

[Raymond Ibrahim]

I mean, these are conquered a lot. Yeah, but in the context of Arabia, these would be seen as sort of small scale. I mean, there's, they're almost described as, you know, Bedouin raids.

[Tom Bilyeu]

But he gets a good reputation.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

Yeah, no, no, he does. And you can say, I mean. Yeah, I mean, some people would say, of course he had a military, he was a military, a tactician to some degree. Right. So he wins. And now, but in as much as he gets stronger during this phase, the Medina, and he keeps conquering. The revelations now take a different tone.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Okay, so God starts revealing different stuff.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

Right? Now that you're able to. Okay, now you can go on the offensive. But before, when you were weak, you, yeah, you preach peace. So there's, so now the clerics have, have concluded there's three basically phases. Or, or, or, or there's three categories which any Muslim even today can find themselves in. One, you're completely outnumbered by the infidel, in which case. Yeah. You know, live and let live. And you should quote those Meccan verses.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Two, sorry, in that phase, how much is Taqiyah?

[Raymond Ibrahim]

Yeah, well, that's the other thing. Takeya is another whole verse and it's actually, it's tied up with the doctrine of having, you know, not being loyal to infidels. It's Quran 3:28. And it basically says it's one of those verses. Do not Befriend, you know, the infidel. And that one, that verse, though, ends up by saying, unless it's by way of taking precautions. And that word traces back to the word takea. And again, the clerics have, you know, the exegesis of it is basically that. Yeah, okay, if you are under non infidel authority, you can say whatever or pretend whatever to make them not, you know, persecute you. Which means you can renounce Islam, you can convert to Christianity. If they're persecuting you, let's say you can engage in baptism. That's what actually happened right before and what drew on the Inquisition, actually in Spain, because there was a large Muslim population that was engaged in that Zaka.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So they're pretending. Yeah, we're good Christians.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

But psych. Just kidding. At home, we're teaching hatred of the infidel.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

In one of my books, Sword in Cemetery, I have a long quote from a Spaniard who said, these people converted. They went to church more than we did. They were model Christians. They were always at mass and it looked like they were reading the Bible. And it would go on generation and generation. You'd think, okay, three, four generations. Yeah. Then they find out at home they're reading the Quran, preaching undying hatred for the infidel, and working to subvert Spain back to Islam.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And do you have a mental model? Like, when you look at the UK or the US do you have a mental model of, like, this is a very small percentage of people that do this, but because you can't tell if they're actually moderate or if they're just faking being moderate.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

Exactly.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Creates a real.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

So you have. You have categories. You have the open, avowed jihadist who I actually find refreshing. Because they're always telling you this. Yeah. And this would be like the ISIS type who literally send out tracks and letters saying, here's why we're fighting you. We're fighting you because you're an infidel. We have to hate you. Okay. Whereas other Muslims, smarter ones maybe will play the grievance mantra, oh, we're fighting you because you started it. Because of, you know, whatever. Colonialism, because you're attacking the Arab world. Whatever. Okay. And that's a lot of Islamist groups engage in them, and that's the jihad of the tongue, for example. But you're right. So then, then you have this gray zone who maybe seem moderate and maybe some are, but you don't know which is the one who's pretending, which is the one who's waiting for the circumstances to change. Okay, I give this analogy and you know, you were even saying, I think you mentioned like in Europe and these growing Muslim numbers, but you don't know. I mean, it's a small number, it's a big number. But here's the thing. If I'm a governor or I'm a leader of, let's say, a European nation and my, my duties to my people, first and foremost, I think all of them would agree with this analogy because everyone now agrees, even the most conservative measure, people will tell you, you know, the apologists for Islam who don't think it's a big deal, they'll tell you, okay, yeah, there's a bunch of raw and apples, but maybe it's like 5% or maybe it's 1% or maybe 10. You know, they'll minimize it. But to me that doesn't, that, that's. We still have a massive problem. It's like saying, you know what? I'm going to give you a jar of candy. There's 100 here. Five are poison. No biggie. Okay, let's, let's eat them. Would you give that to your kid? I wouldn't. Okay, because, and again, I understand the 90, 95, 99 are not like that, but why is it incumbent on me to take this risk when I know it's part of that? And there are people doing this. We know that. And this is what I mean. Even, even the most liberal leftist woke person will agree and say, yeah, I think most Muslims are good, but yeah, I know there's a few radicals. But right there, you've just, right there, you've admitted to something that I personally, if I was a leader who cares about my people, I wouldn't engage in that. Why would I take something fast?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Just because I, I can preempt what people are thinking right now. So every group is going to have their craziest. I don't know that McVeigh who did the Oklahoma City bombing, I don't know that he quoted Christianity, but boy, I wouldn't be surprised.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

They say they are.

[Tom Bilyeu]

They try to claim, okay, so now it's like, well, do I start being super paranoid about all Christians or is it that, well, hold on a second. If you look at the Old Testament, sure, there's some wacky and I'm going to be stoning all kinds of people. But if you go, well, this is New Testament Christianity. That's what this is about. This is about following in Jesus, his footsteps. And he clearly, if you're modeling your behavior after him, you have a lot harder time finding somebody that goes on the offensive. And however, on the Muslim side, if you start really hardlining and going with the word of the Quran now you're running into trouble. Is that where you make the distinction or do you not? And you just go, hey, these have more crazies than other places or their crazies are more dangerous. And that's why my warning is about Muslims and not about Christians. I also believe that ideology will tap into dormant things with inside the human. And this is why there's a book called Ordinary Men about how Hitler turned these ordinary cops into the most, most ruthless killing machine where they were out shooting naked pregnant women during the Holocaust. And so it's like, yeah, that's horrifying. And that's doctrine that comes and tells you not only is this, okay, this is good and you should do this and this is good for the German people. And yay. And so I know that humans will fall pre to doctrine that makes him feel good about something that from where I'm sitting is absolutely psychotic. So the reason I look at Christians and I'm like, okay, look, they are going to have their crazies, but if I can peel you off of the Old Testament, I've at least got more to work with over here. It's far more poetic, it's far more turn the other cheek, all that kind of stuff. I don't know the Quran well enough, so I can't tell you, but looking at that side, either you're saying this group, for whatever reason, has a higher percentage of what Tom Billy was calling crazy people. I don't want to put that word on you, but either you believe that they have a higher percentage of problematic people or the doctrine somehow is more problematic and therefore we need to be worried about them and not the Christians.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

Yeah, the latter. So I agree with you that you have psychotic crazy people of all races and creeds. Okay. But in Islam, the teachings are prone to exploits, that sort of thing. Okay, so I'll give you an example. I remember, I don't know, I forget who it was. Some Brandon maybe CIA agent, CIA director a few years ago. And he was trying to minimize the ISIS phenomenon. And he's saying, you know, this has nothing to do with Islam, isis, Islamic State.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Sure.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

And the atrocities are engaging. And he said, because if you look at all the people who are involved in it, they are all former criminals and they just are criminals. And okay, so he's trying to say, oh, these are just criminals who are trying to justify their Criminality. Or could it be that because Islam actually justifies this stuff, these criminal elements find themselves gravitating towards it? Okay, so beheading people and crucifying them and engaging in raping and enslaving. Okay. There's people who think and do that regardless of religion. Non, you know, Westerners, non Westerners, all races. But if you have a religion that now actually promotes this and puts a pious veneer on it until you can go to heaven, I think that has, you know, the capacity to really radicalize and win over people. As opposed to what you're saying, for example, about Jesus. Okay, are there Christians who are nominal Christians who want to engage in violence and. Yeah, of course. But they don't have the ideological support support the way a Muslim or a convert to Islam would have it. And this, again, this is just.

[Tom Bilyeu]

They actually say behead people in the Quran.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

Yeah, yeah. And crucify them. Chop their fingertips off. Yeah, yeah. And slit their throat. And so, so for example, if you look in Europe, rape in a lot of these countries, it's. It's something like 80 by Muslim migrants. Okay. Even though they're often under 10% of the population. So what do you, you know, what do you make of that? There's, There has to be a correlation. They usually try not. They don't want these numbers to come out. They don't want people to understand what's going on. But it's like, yeah, there's a correlate. If I. Okay, a man who's again, nominal Christian. Yeah. Do some of them rape. Yeah, obviously. But you're. This person's not going to be able to go quote the Bible. Okay. And the Old Testament thing is not really the same. We can talk about that. It's not. The Old Testament is descriptive. It's not prescriptive. The Quran is prescriptive.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Give me the difference.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

The difference is, okay, so a lot of people tell you, you know, why are you picking on the Quran? The violence. Didn't you read the Old Testament? Joshua, genocide, God. Okay.

[Tom Bilyeu]

They're wild.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

Yeah. The difference is this. Think of it whatever you want, okay? But it's, it's no, everyone who read it and understand it, it's written in a very temporal language. It's in finite. It talks about, it gives you the names of the enemies, the Hebizites, the Pebites, the Canaanites, okay. None of who exist. And it uses a language which is basically, you understand the. You. The Hebrews in the now are fighting this group of people now, again, you can make of it whatever you want but it's not prescriptive in the sense that in the Quran it's the same thing. You know, there were actual historic enemies that the Arabs were fighting in the seventh century. The Byzantines, the Eastern Roman Empire, the Sasanians, the Kurish, the, you know, pagans. But they're not given their name. They're actually called the non Muslims, the kafir. Okay, which is the infidel.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Translated what you're describing sounds to me less like that it the Old Testament isn't prescriptive. It's more that the Old Testament is specific and the Quran is generalized.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

It's open ended. Even the, the verbs. So when you read the verb of killing the infidel, it's in the present, you know, fight and kill the infidel. So if I'm a Muslim I read it, okay. It's you know, it's speaking to me in the now. Whereas I read an Old Testament passage about Joshua warring. Okay, it is what it is. It doesn't necessarily. I don't read it as this is instruction for me.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Okay, how do you feel about the following statement? If let's to me as I hear this, I have not read the Old Testament nor have I read the Quran. So people that know more than me can think something totally different. But Old Testament at the headline level I've heard enough that I'm like this is wild and I'm just going to set it all aside because it's so crazy it makes me dislike their version of God. That is not interesting to me at all. The behavior that seems condoned even if it's not told, you need to go do this is crazy. And I've certainly heard stuff like you can stone people to death for homosexuality and things like that.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

Which Leviticus.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, yeah, I couldn't, wouldn't sign against harder if I tried. So it's like okay, all of that is atrocious. And so I look at that stuff and I'm hand wavy away to like you obviously need to get away from that. And so I feel like it would be just to do the same thing to the Quran. So is it that accidentally the way that the Old Testament is structured linguistically it just doesn't have the mind virus effect into the present that the Quran accidentally ends up having. So it's not that we should ascribe to Muhammad any extra like sort of bad vibes or you know, whatever you want to say than you would to the writers of the Old Testament. It's just that his linguistic choices end up having this knock on effect throughout history that were not present in the Old Testament. Or does that feel naive, believed?

[Raymond Ibrahim]

No, no, that's, that sounds like a secular rationalization. Okay, but a believer of a Christian or a Muslim, the Christian, and I assume, you know, possibly the Jew could say no, this, it was intentionally written that way so we don't go and kill people today. Whereas the Muslim will tell you, no, it's intentionally written that way because jihad is still alive in the night.

[Tom Bilyeu]

That's the knock on effect I'm talking about. It gives people as they interpret it, the lens through which to say that interpretation. But ultimately it does come down to the things happening in the books are pretty horrifying.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

Yeah, I mean there's, there's people who've said if you really compare the violence and the atrocities and the sort of bad vibes in the Old Testament that they're worse than the crime. Yeah, okay. But again it really goes, it goes to. I'm not looking at, I'm not looking at. Yeah, the words are the words. But how do they guide the people today? And you were not seeing Jews and Christians doing that sort of thing. Okay, we are seeing Muslims doing that sort of thing. I've given some reasons why I think that's the case. Because it's seen, it's described, the language is very including, the tense is prescriptive, it's generic, it's open ended. When it says fight, okay, so like I told you, the Old Testament says fight these groups of people who don't exist. The Quran says fight the non Muslim until he is subjugated. Well, if I'm a Muslim and I read that there's non Muslims all around me and they're not subjugated. So that's why I think it takes more of an immediate tone.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Okay, okay. So we're knee deep in the doctrine here.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

And otherwise, you know, just to continue this like so, otherwise how would one explain it? Why is it that this is happening amongst Muslims? It's obvious and it's not happening. If all religions have their wackos, why is it so overwhelming? You look at any of these European countries and you look at, you know, the number of terrorist attacks and they're overwhelmingly Muslims even though Muslims are minority. So if it's not what I'm saying, what else could it be?

[Tom Bilyeu]

I think I have a different read on all of this than you. I'll lay it out here so people don't think I'm dodging the question, but this is probably not yet the point in the interview where we go down this path. But it. My thing goes like this. Culture clashes are real. I worry about that a lot. They decohere society and then you get all kinds of madness.

[Shopify/VRBO/Grainger Advertiser]

This.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I am a big believer that cultures are going to compete. I want my culture to win because I grew up in it and it treated me very well. And I love it. I love the way it made me feel. I love the way it makes me feel towards other people, makes me feel open and inclusive. I love all of that. But it also makes me want to play to win. And so there's this really cool thing if I want an open playing field and yet I want to get so good that I can beat everybody else. So that's why I love my culture and why I want to see it win. But I also only want an even playing field. And so that's where this gets strange, where it's like, okay, how protective do we be now? I'm a person who believes you have to have very strict immigration policies. And so I have a feeling we'll agree on that, but it might be for different reasons. So that's the part that I will. Hopefully we'll have time at the end to get to. So what I'm trying to tease out is, is our Muslims right now, culturally, because I've heard you, you've been very clear on doctrine, and your hypothesis is it creates this way outsized and very unique impact on the world. To me, it's very in line with what Sam Harris says. I think there's a lot there, it makes sense as an argument. And what I'm trying to figure out is, is it that or is it just that they're having more kids, they're more confident in themselves and so they're not afraid to be like, yeah, fudge you, my religion is better. And so, yes, I'm going to come to your country. You're wealthy, you guys have cooler shit. I'm going to come here, I'm going to raise my kids here, but we're going to terraform this place culturally. We're going to take it over, we're going to take the advantages that you guys have. Keep that rolling. But at the same time, you guys are living a super lame, like, value system life, and we're going to take that over. And it's like, yeah, I both understand why a culture would think that's a good idea if they have like the confidence of their culture. And I understand why the country that that's being done to would be like, fuck right off. And so when I see Japan being like, nope, you guys got to go. I find it funny. Now I also have, I tried to do business in Japan. It did. It went nowhere. Like it was.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

So they're not open, in other words,

[Tom Bilyeu]

they're not open in the slightest. And it's created this incredibly unique culture that I have. I have gained so much enjoyment from insights from whatever that I completely respect and enjoy being able to interact with their culture. I don't think it's better than ours, but I really find it engaging. So the fact that they would tell me like, hey, we want to do business with Japanese people, you can go away, bugger off. Like, I'm like, hey, I get it, no worries. Like you do you. It's part of what makes you interesting. So now I get it. It becomes very existential from cultural perspective. So I'm watching what's happening in Europe and I am aghast that they don't believe in themselves and they look at what they've accomplished. They had the largest empire in the world and all they can see is, but we were bad people. Like, and I'm just like, what the fuck? So anyway, that to me feels like a very inappropriate read of what you've done historically. I'm all for people. Well, there were parts of this that were horrific and so we'd never rerun that experiment. But at the same time to be able to see what it looks like when we're muscular and strong and we believe in ourselves and like all of that, we're going to check ourselves so that we don't, you know, sort of redo. And I mean, I think in many ways the American system Post World War II was us trying to do colonialism, right? We'd go in and help, but we wouldn't take over. We had a military base, but we're not trying to tell you what to do. So it's like we want to control the economy but like you can still be Japanese, you know what I mean? So that we got closer. Trust me, you can go down very dark paths of things the US has done and you hopefully get better and better and better over time. But nonetheless, I do not share the sort of self suicidal, self flagellating look at America or the UK or wherever. But I also don't immediately extend to Islam that right now is like having their moment. Like they're, it's working, man, having babies, believing in your book, like recruiting the out of other people, telling them like, yo, these guys are weak. Like, look at these idiots, the way they run their country. Like, forget all that. Like, we're gonna be tough. We're gonna be strong. We're not gonna be pushed around. Hey, now, to your point at the beginning, there comes a time where. Wait, hold on. If you're gonna tell me how to live now, I have a real problem. And so part of the reason I wanted to interview you is I. I am looking at this going, is there a uniquely escalatory problem where this religion, the Die Hards. You've been very clear, and it makes a lot of sense to me that it's probably a small number, but that the Die Hards are going to make problems for me. And especially because I believe that American culture right now does not believe in itself as very weak. But I want to see it reassert itself. I want to see America be strong again from a cultural perspective. I'm not Christian even a little bit. However, I believe I have grown up in the cultural soup of believing that the individual is sovereign, that there is a little bit of divinity in all of us, and therefore there should be individual freedoms and all of that. I look at Islam does not seem compatible with that. Maybe people will make me a better believer. I doubt it, but it's certainly possible. So that's sort of how I come at all of this. And as I was saying before we started rolling, what I want to understand are all the base assumptions that you have that lead you to your conclusions. Because then I can go either agree with the base assumptions or I don't. And then I can build my own thinking rather than just being a parrot who's like, oh, I've never thought through this. So I'm just going to pare it back what you say or what somebody else says. No, no, I understand the base assumption. And so now I'm like, well, is that true or not? Okay, so we were in doctrine. Have you laid out all of the doctrines you believe that make Islam uniquely problematic, or are there?

[Raymond Ibrahim]

Yeah, there were three. So the first one I mentioned, loyalty, enmity, tribalism, essentially, but deified, which creates the hostility that manifests itself as jihad. So that's the physical manifestation that we're familiar with, which can be expressed as terrorism, warfare, conquest. And the third one is basically the idea that once a conquest happens, which kind of goes to where you're going, you know? So let. I think you're asking me, like, okay, Muslims are just competing like everyone else, and they're having their moments, but is getting. Is it going to get dark in the end. So what happened to conquered, you know, subject populations historically is not what, for example, happened under the Mongols. Okay, so the Mongols actually when they would. And they were really brutal and Brutal. Yeah, exactly. There's no one, no one has reached that level. Okay. But they actually gave freedom of religion and we weren't supremacist against you because you believe this or that or the other thing. Islam doesn't have that. Okay? So in Islam, once you're conquered, you pay tribute and you have to be a second class citizen. Now this actually continues throughout the Islamic world. If you talk about Egypt, my ancestral homeland, that's what you will see more. Not necessarily physical persecution. That happens. Okay. But what's ingrained in the culture is a sort of discriminatory attitude towards the non Muslim, let's say the Christian. You are a second class citizen.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Okay, so why weren't your parents more angry with Muslims?

[Raymond Ibrahim]

I'll tell you why. Because they're born into that and that's normal. And you know, there's a word for dhimmitude which means, you know, dhimmis, like that kind of person.

[Grainger Advertiser]

Right.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

They're called dhimmis. And dimitude is this mental, you know, mentality. You're born into it and you just accept it. Yeah. I mean they're the overlords, they're the majority. So I need to know my place, so. And not necessarily my parents that were like that. But that's kind of what influences a lot of people like that. They're just that they're born into it. That's how I have to be. It's a fair price. You know, they're the majority. The idea of, oh, everyone has their free, you know, freedom, like the American or Western idea, that's so alien. And I would say it's not organic. I mean we have to learn that

[Tom Bilyeu]

it's like a caste system.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

Yeah, yeah. And that's more organic though. It's organic to be. I'm a minority. Let me just be grateful they're not killing me. You know, they're giving me some measure of tolerance. That's good, that's, I think what, how most people would understand it. What we have is actually, you know, it's, it's, it's manufactured, it's good, but it's not, it's not naturally an organic thing that just everyone realizes, oh yeah, everyone's equal. That's what I mean. It goes back to the tribalism.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And is it in the Quran that you have to be a second class citizen?

[Raymond Ibrahim]

Yeah, Quran 9:29, it says, Fight, fight the people of the book, which is understood as Jews and Christians who actually. So this is actually good. I mean the other people who are not Jews and Christians, you're supposed to just kill them unless they convert the Jews and the Christians, according to this verse 9, 29, you fight them until you, until they keep fighting. You kill them or they submit and they pay tribute. And it says, and they live feeling subjugated and humbled. And then there's a whole entire jurisprudence about how to make them feel that way. So historically there were times when the Jew or Christian comes and pays, the tax gatherer has to pull their beard and slap them. They have to crawl on all fours.

[Tom Bilyeu]

That's in the Quran.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

No, no, no, that's, that was a practice. How does that mean based on the verse. Based on the verse that they have to feel humbled, which is in the Quran. The jurists would enforce these types of humiliation rituals because of that. Right? Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Okay.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

So anyway, so those are the doctrines. But to your point, okay, you were, I think, and you know, correct me if I don't, if I'm not, if I'm paraphrasing you wrong, but you were saying kind of it's okay if Muslims want to come in and it's, you know, they're competing with ideas and they're proud of their way and you know, they're just bringing their thing. Right. Which was. Okay, I think you're saying.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, if you're not.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

But the problem is what, what was.

[Tom Bilyeu]

If you're going to force your religion on other people. Now I have beef.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

Okay. All right, so it's not an either or with Islam. Okay? It's not either. They are just, you know, this is their moment or they are, you know, just, they have a dark agenda. Okay. The two can work together actually, and they often do. And I'll give you a perfect historical precedent which may illuminate what we're discussing. Because you were talking about you don't like the self flagellation of the west and whatnot. So historically, if you go back to the colonial era, and again, the problem with the colonial era is most people don't know what happened before it, okay. Which was the long drawn jihad and conquest of Christian territories. And the colonial era was finally when Europe was now stronger and it went on the offense and it entered the Muslim lands which were formerly Christian. Okay? Now what they did is, okay, you can say they conquered the Arabs and the Muslim and the, you know, Asians and Africans and whatnot. In during the colonial era. But the difference is they actually brought a lot of good stuff, honestly. Okay. They actually brought science, technology, medicine, progress, which was not there. Literacy. Okay. Printing presses. That's what the Europeans brought during the colonial era.

[Tom Bilyeu]

That's it for part one. Make sure you are subscribed so you do not miss part two. Coming up soon.